Deepa Varadarajan, LATE BLOOMERS
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[1:03]Deepa Farad Derajan is the author of Late Blumers, a novel.
[1:08]Deepa lives in Atlanta with her husband and two children.
[1:10]She is a legal academic and a graduate of Yale Law School.
[1:14]She grew up in Texas and received her BA from the University of Texas at Austin.
[1:18]Her short fiction has appeared in the Georgia Review and her legal scholarship has appeared
[1:22]in the Yale Law Journal and many other publications.
[1:25]Late Blumers is her first novel.
[1:28]Welcome, Deepa.
[1:29]Thank you so much for coming on momstone and time to read books to discuss Late Blumers
[1:32]with your novel.
[1:33]Thanks so much for having me.
[1:35]I'm so excited to be here.
[1:36]That's always fun talking about dating later in life.
[1:40]Why not?
[1:41]Let's go right into it.
[1:43]So tell listeners about both how you came as a former lawyer or maybe still our lawyer
[1:49]to write a book, former current.
[1:52]I'm still a law professor, actually, but professor, okay.
[1:55]From that to writing a book about divorce parents who have to find love again and all
[2:00]of that.
[2:02]So I am fascinated by the idea of second chances.
[2:06]Are you ever too old to reinvent your life or can you change at any age?
[2:12]And I wanted to explore that idea through the story of an Indian American family living
[2:17]in a fictional college town in Texas.
[2:20]And a couple at the center of the story, Letha and Sireesh Ramen, have recently divorced
[2:24]after 36 years of an arranged marriage.
[2:26]And it was Letha's decision to leave, but now they're both figuring out how to start
[2:30]over.
[2:31]And Letha has this job outside the home for the first time at a university library, which
[2:36]she loves.
[2:38]And a professor there, Aster on a date, which is this totally new and nerve-wracking experience
[2:43]for her.
[2:44]And her ex-husband, Sireesh, is online dating for the first time, and it is not going
[2:49]at all how you say it.
[2:51]And so they're trying for these new beginnings.
[2:54]They're doing these things outside their comfort zone.
[2:56]And meanwhile, there are two 30-something-year-old children, Priya and Akash, are struggling
[3:01]to adapt to these changes to their parents' new lives.
[3:05]And they're also trying to sort out their own very messy relationship issues, which
[3:10]they've been hiding from their parents.
[3:12]And so the family members in the story are discovering these secret sides of each other.
[3:16]And they're learning how to let the people they love become these new and evolving versions
[3:20]of themselves.
[3:21]I love that.
[3:22]I got divorced and remarried in my late 30s and 40s and navigating all those relationships.
[3:29]It brought me back.
[3:30]I also, by the way, went undercover and helped my mom's best friend go on dating apps
[3:35]at age 70 to try to find somebody for her.
[3:38]Wow!
[3:39]Which is really funny.
[3:40]Nobody was looking for a 70-year-old woman.
[3:42]I'll have you know.
[3:43]I'm kidding.
[3:44]The app, so that was tough.
[3:46]All the people her age were like, we're looking for someone in their 40s.
[3:49]She's like, what?
[3:50]Right.
[3:51]That's one of Cerati's frustrations in this book, but women are lying about their age
[3:54]online.
[3:55]Yes.
[3:56]And you had such a funny relationship, too, between the parents and the kids and all those
[4:02]adult parent relationships are also hilarious.
[4:04]Can I read this little section?
[4:06]Of course.
[4:07]And I think maybe because my mother can be like this also, but anyway, so she's talking
[4:11]to her mom.
[4:12]And she said, I cut her off before she could bombard me with instructions for every
[4:15]plant in the yard.
[4:16]Mom, why don't you tell him?
[4:17]I'm never going to remember these instructions.
[4:19]Oh, well, it's his garden.
[4:20]He can do whatever he wants with it.
[4:22]So is there anything else at the end of her question, mom and hell, the quick, but noticeable
[4:28]breath?
[4:29]Anything else.
[4:30]This was how my mother ended all our phone conversations.
[4:33]The expectant pause, the tremulous hope before the word else.
[4:37]This was the point in the conversation where I imagine my mother bracing herself, desperate
[4:41]for some kind of announcement.
[4:42]That is the nuptial kind.
[4:44]The kind that would finally relieve her of the fear that I'd died childless and alone.
[4:48]My father's lack of subtlety took the form of antagonistic questioning in my living
[4:52]room.
[4:53]My mother's took the equally exasperating the less confrontational form of the pregnant
[4:57]pause.
[4:58]And then they go through all of this.
[5:00]And then at the end, you say, I stuffed the indignation down my throat and swallowed.
[5:05]Nope, I said, that's it.
[5:06]I think else, mom, what about you?
[5:08]Everything OK?
[5:09]And then there's the thing on the next page.
[5:13]But then quickly, you say, and just like that, my anger turned to shame.
[5:17]My mother was alone.
[5:18]She was growing old in a crappy condo.
[5:20]She spent her days working in a library with obnoxious college age freaks.
[5:23]Honestly, what kind of daughter was I?
[5:26]So yes.
[5:27]Yeah, there's that, you know, back and forth.
[5:29]Like on the one hand, she's so frustrated that they seem to be obsessed both her parents
[5:33]with the fact that she's unmarried.
[5:34]They're so worried about her.
[5:35]And you know, at the same time, she's frustrated by it.
[5:38]But then she also thinks to herself, well, am I doing something wrong?
[5:42]Have I gone off track somewhere?
[5:44]So there's that, you know, back and forth for her, which, you know, being someone myself
[5:48]who got married in her early thirties, I remember that.
[5:51]So I feel like our parents, there never ceases to be expectations of any kind, whether
[5:58]it's professional or personal or related to the kids or something, you know, I just feel
[6:03]like there's always some way falling short or that or no something.
[6:08]There is something.
[6:09]And I think, you know, one of the themes in this book is, you know, is it harder to parent,
[6:12]young children?
[6:13]Is it harder to parent older children?
[6:14]I think the answer is it's just all hard, you know, parenting at it is hard.
[6:19]And you know, I now that I'm on the other side of it and I am a parent too, I do, I think
[6:24]I feel a lot more sympathy for my own parents.
[6:27]And you know, in a way that process of becoming a parent myself, you know, helped me understand
[6:32]these characters a bit more.
[6:33]And I think helped me find particularly, particularly, a lot that's boys.
[6:37]And so I read that the inspiration for this came at a dinner with your husband's friend
[6:42]or his parents who got divorced or something like that, tell you about the inspiration or
[6:46]some sort of...
[6:47]Yeah.
[6:48]So the characters are this product of my imagination, but the very first spark of inspiration
[6:53]came almost 20 years ago.
[6:55]At the time, I was dating an Indian American man and his parents had recently divorced.
[7:00]And his dad was experimenting with online dating.
[7:03]And I remember him saying something to us along the lines of, I want to try it your way
[7:07]this time.
[7:08]And I remember being struck by that and thinking, you know, it's a really brave thing
[7:11]to try to start over later in life.
[7:14]And at the same time, I was in my 20s and I was having these relationship issues.
[7:18]And all of that got me thinking, you know, I haven't read a story before about recently
[7:23]divorced and even a couple of my parents age and their adult children all going through
[7:27]romantic turmoil at the same time, you know, I want to read that story, maybe I could figure
[7:32]out how to write it, you know.
[7:34]And at the same time, the parents in the story, let them seraged, they had an arranged
[7:38]marriage.
[7:39]There's didn't work out.
[7:41]My parents also had an arranged marriage.
[7:43]Lucky for me though, they have been married for almost five decades.
[7:46]They have a very, you know, successful marriage.
[7:50]But you know, when I was younger, it was always this object of fascination to me how they
[7:53]met, the fact that they didn't really know each other and then they got married.
[7:57]And I've always felt like it's kind of a stroke of luck that they turned out to be so
[8:00]compatible.
[8:01]But there have been moments where I've thought, you know, what if, what if it had gone
[8:04]another way?
[8:05]And the story is kind of that alternate path, that imaginary, what if we had run a publishing
[8:11]company also our first book was called My What a Fear.
[8:14]And it was, it's about a woman who decided that like she wasn't that happy with her life
[8:18]and took on four other interships.
[8:20]But the reason I bring it up is when you started off saying the whole theme of the book
[8:23]and something you're so interested in is like, what if, like, and what about second acts?
[8:28]And like, is it ever too late to redo where you are?
[8:32]And what does that mean?
[8:33]Anyway, I feel like it's very much aligned.
[8:35]It's a question on everyone's minds these days.
[8:38]Yeah.
[8:39]And you, you know, you asked me earlier about my own process, how I, yes, how I grew, you
[8:44]know, becoming a lawyer and then writing this book.
[8:46]And so that whole idea of a second act, a second chance really resonates with me now because
[8:50]I'm, you know, a debut author in my 40s after having that career as a lawyer and a law
[8:55]professor.
[8:56]And so, you know, that question resonates with me in my own life, too.
[9:00]So tell me that whole story.
[9:02]How did this all happen?
[9:03]Sure.
[9:04]So, you know, like the title of my novel, I'm kind of a late blue working writing.
[9:08]I didn't really know that I wanted to start writing fiction till my mid-20s.
[9:13]I think like a lot of writers, I've always loved to read.
[9:15]So I grew up in a small college town in Texas, much like the setting of the novel.
[9:22]And, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s.
[9:24]I was one of just a few Indian kids in my school.
[9:27]So I felt like an outsider, like a lot of outsiders.
[9:30]I found my solace in reading fiction.
[9:32]So I've always loved to read.
[9:34]But it didn't really occur to me to start trying to write fiction until I was in law
[9:39]school.
[9:40]So it's funny.
[9:41]I went to law school and I discovered, well, I discovered I wanted to be law professor,
[9:43]but I also discovered I wanted to write fiction.
[9:46]And I think part of the reason is there were these people, a few people around me who are
[9:50]publishing nonfiction and publishing novels.
[9:52]And there's something about physical proximity to people who are doing the thing you
[9:57]want to do that makes you into yourself.
[9:59]Okay.
[10:00]Oh, can I try doing this thing too?
[10:02]And so I graduated from law school,
[10:05]and then I started working at this big law firm in New York,
[10:08]not unlike the kind of firm that Nickesh works at
[10:11]and much like Nickesh, it was not a good fit for me.
[10:14]I was not something that was quite right for me.
[10:17]And so I signed up for my very first ever
[10:20]creative writing workshop while I was working
[10:22]at this law firm in New York in my mid 20s.
[10:24]And once a week, one evening a week,
[10:26]I would go to this workshop, I would share my work
[10:29]and it was just the highlight of every single week for me.
[10:31]And ever since then, fiction writing has been
[10:34]part of my life.
[10:35]Wait, what was the workshop?
[10:37]What was it called?
[10:38]Oh, it was called a writer studio.
[10:39]It was the very first workshop I ever did.
[10:42]And in fact, this character of Suresh
[10:45]actually grew out of my very first workshop assignment
[10:48]in my very first creative writing class almost 20 years ago.
[10:51]I remember the assignment was we read a little part
[10:55]of a short story from a collection called Sam the Cat
[10:58]by Matthew Clam, which is terrific collection.
[11:00]And we were supposed to come back with two pages written
[11:03]in a first person narrator point of view.
[11:05]And so I had this idea for this character
[11:07]of a recently divorced Indian man in his late 50s
[11:10]who was trying to start over.
[11:12]And I brought in these two pages.
[11:14]And there's something about being a workshop you can tell
[11:17]when something has gone over well
[11:18]when people are responding to something.
[11:20]And so I thought, okay, I have something here.
[11:22]But at the time, I thought it was just gonna be a short story
[11:25]because I did not have the confidence at that moment
[11:27]to think, oh, I can write a novel.
[11:29]So I thought it was gonna be the short story
[11:31]and I worked on it and I couldn't get it to work
[11:33]as a short story.
[11:35]And so I put it away for a couple of years
[11:37]and then I came back to it
[11:38]because I hadn't forgotten about Suresh.
[11:39]And when I came back to it,
[11:41]I started thinking a lot more about his ex-wife Lata
[11:44]and his daughter Priya.
[11:46]And I started wanting to write from their points of YouTube.
[11:50]And at that point, I realized, okay, this is not a short story.
[11:53]This is a novel.
[11:55]And I just kept working on it
[11:57]and sort of fits and starts putting it away,
[11:59]taking it back out.
[12:00]I really didn't have a very straightforward process at all.
[12:04]It was just me sort of fumbling my way in the darkness
[12:07]trying to figure out how to write a novel.
[12:10]And yeah, so here are 17 years later, it's coming out.
[12:16]Did you have a period where you were working
[12:18]at much more intensely?
[12:19]Like did the pandemic help you finish it
[12:21]or how did that all play into it?
[12:24]Yeah, I mean, there were periods
[12:25]where I was working on it more intensely.
[12:28]And in fact, during the pandemic,
[12:30]I was revising it.
[12:31]And I remember thinking to myself,
[12:35]because part of what I struggled with,
[12:37]I sort of struggled with two things.
[12:39]One was when do you let go of something
[12:41]which can be hard to know, right?
[12:42]When is the right moment to send it out,
[12:45]send it out to try to get an agent?
[12:47]Do you keep revising, do you keep tinkering with it?
[12:51]And the other thing I struggled with
[12:52]because I encountered periods of rejection,
[12:56]I also struggled with, well,
[12:58]should I put this away and move on to something new?
[13:00]And so in the pandemic, I went back and looked at this
[13:04]and I was revising it and I thought to myself,
[13:07]okay, this is the last time I'm going to send it out.
[13:09]And if it doesn't work out,
[13:10]then I'm going to move on to a new project.
[13:13]And luckily I sent it out and I found this amazing agent
[13:17]in December of 2020.
[13:19]And it was strange to have this joyful news
[13:22]at a time where there was so much pain and hardship.
[13:26]But in my mind, that was sort of going to be my last time
[13:30]with us.
[13:31]If it didn't work out, it was time to move on.
[13:34]So it turns out the timing was perfect.
[13:36]There you go.
[13:37]You're new.
[13:38]Did you ever read the children's book
[13:41]called Leo the late bloomer?
[13:43]No, do not.
[13:44]Yes, you have to get that.
[13:46]You should get it.
[13:47]It's really great.
[13:48]It's about a little tiger and his parents
[13:50]and they're really worried about little Leo.
[13:53]And all the other animals could start doing things better
[13:56]and like he couldn't write as well.
[13:58]And he couldn't jump as well or whatever it is.
[14:01]And then one day, like all the way towards the end,
[14:05]there's like this beautiful forest with all these leaves.
[14:08]And it's like, and then one day, Leo bloomed.
[14:11]And I think it's so sweet.
[14:13]And I get chills every time.
[14:14]But anyway, I don't know, it might be some fun tie in
[14:18]with your with your book and the picture book.
[14:20]And I don't know.
[14:22]Like a mommy and me type event or something.
[14:25]I don't know.
[14:26]It's good to be my love.
[14:27]I have to get that from my nephew.
[14:29]It's really cute.
[14:31]But it's good, honestly, it's good for teenagers.
[14:34]I mean, blooming is at every stage of life.
[14:37]This person's doing this first.
[14:38]This is happening to this person blah, blah, blah.
[14:40]It never ends.
[14:41]It's true.
[14:42]It definitely does not.
[14:43]And what was the experience like getting the news?
[14:46]You were so happy in the face of dire times.
[14:49]But when you finally sold the book and all that,
[14:52]like what did you do?
[14:52]Did you jump around or like give me like a visual of how excited
[14:56]you are?
[14:57]I just, oh, gosh, there was definitely some screaming,
[15:00]some enjoyable screaming.
[15:01]Yes, much celebrating.
[15:03]Because this was something that I had worked
[15:05]towards for so long.
[15:06]And there were moments where I'd sort of, you know,
[15:09]almost given up and thought, okay,
[15:11]this is really not going to happen for me.
[15:12]So it was just really this amazing, amazing feeling
[15:16]when it happened.
[15:17]Are you working on another book now?
[15:19]Yeah, so right now I am working on a few short stories.
[15:22]So I love the short story form.
[15:24]I find it really gratifying and challenging
[15:27]in a totally different way than writing a novel.
[15:29]But I'm also working on something
[15:31]that I think could turn into a novel.
[15:33]Though I'm not sure.
[15:34]I've sort of sketched out some scenes and some characters.
[15:38]And like late bloomers, it involves an Indian-American family
[15:43]and they're discovering secret size of each other.
[15:45]And there's adult sibling relationships and rivalries
[15:48]and wounds and regrets and forgiveness.
[15:51]And so it has some of similar themes to late bloomers.
[15:55]So it's great.
[15:57]But what in the process so far
[15:59]of the publishing process at least is surprised you
[16:01]or wasn't what you thought it would be
[16:03]when you had hoped to get a book published for those years?
[16:06]Like what has happened that you weren't expecting
[16:09]or good or bad?
[16:11]Well, one of the things I have learned
[16:12]is just how many people it takes to turn a word document
[16:16]into a book with a beautiful cover that ends up
[16:19]in these amazing stores, including hopefully
[16:21]you were a wonderful new store.
[16:23]Yes, yes.
[16:24]Yeah.
[16:25]And so just everyone from your brilliant editor
[16:28]to the art designers who have this beautiful aesthetic sense
[16:34]and can come up with a terrific cover
[16:36]to the copy editors who are so meticulously finding things
[16:39]that you had not anticipated.
[16:41]It's just so many wonderful people
[16:44]that are contributing their talents
[16:45]to help your book reach the world.
[16:46]So that to me was something that was very pleasant
[16:50]to discover.
[16:51]And tell me about what you teach at law school
[16:53]and how you marry these two different pieces
[16:56]of your life now.
[16:58]Well, I teach intellectual property law and innovation.
[17:00]So that's my area.
[17:02]And I love being a law professor.
[17:03]I love teaching students.
[17:05]And they're very different, right?
[17:07]They're totally two different types of jobs,
[17:10]fiction writing and being a law professor.
[17:13]But I think for me, in a way they have gone well together,
[17:16]I mean, time has always trick you're always trying
[17:18]to find the 25th hour of the day.
[17:20]As I'm sure you can imagine you,
[17:22]you managed to do so many, so many things.
[17:25]But I think for me, because the fiction writing process
[17:28]is so full of uncertainty and it's uncertain at every stage.
[17:32]You start a short story or you start a novel
[17:35]and you really don't know
[17:36]you're going to get it to work until deep into it, right?
[17:39]I have this short story that I've actually been working
[17:41]on on and off for three years.
[17:43]And I'm thinking that I might ditch it
[17:45]because I can't figure out how to make it work.
[17:46]And so there's uncertainty at the writing process.
[17:49]There is uncertainty at the stage
[17:51]when you're sending your manuscript out
[17:53]and hoping that you'll get an agent.
[17:55]And when that happens, if that happens,
[17:57]then there's uncertainty in sending it out
[17:59]and hoping that you'll find an editor who also loves your book.
[18:01]And then if that miraculously happens,
[18:03]you're sending it out to the world
[18:04]and hoping reviewers will like it
[18:06]and people will buy it.
[18:07]So it's just uncertainty at every stage of the process.
[18:11]And I'm a person by nature,
[18:13]I don't really thrive in conditions of uncertainty.
[18:16]So it's been really nice to have this other career
[18:19]which offers more certainty
[18:21]and offers more sort of daily sources of affirmation.
[18:24]Like I can teach a class and a student might email me
[18:27]and say, hey, that was a really great class.
[18:28]And I can carry that, you know?
[18:30]And that helps kind of me power through this other part
[18:33]in my life where for many years,
[18:36]I was sending things out to the world
[18:37]and getting only rejections.
[18:39]So, you know, in a way, they do go together for me.
[18:44]I love that.
[18:45]It's so nice.
[18:46]So what advice would you have then
[18:49]for the aspiring author?
[18:50]I think my number one piece of advice would be to be persistent.
[18:54]You know, keep trying, don't give up,
[18:56]try to power through the rejection in the hard moments.
[19:01]I would also say try as much as you can to focus
[19:05]on what you love about the process of writing,
[19:08]focus on trying to get better at the craft
[19:10]because, you know, focusing on ends and outcomes,
[19:13]you really don't have much control over those.
[19:15]So I think for sanity's sake,
[19:17]it's much better to really try to focus on,
[19:19]how do I get better at this?
[19:21]What do I love about the process of writing?
[19:23]And I think one other thing I would say is,
[19:25]you know, try to be patient and kind to yourself.
[19:28]I know that pretty much every birthday
[19:31]I hit from age 30 on,
[19:33]I would spend a few moments kind of scolding myself.
[19:36]Like, why aren't you done yet?
[19:37]Why haven't you gone in age and yet?
[19:38]Why haven't you published it yet?
[19:39]Why are you failing at this, you know?
[19:41]And I just wish I had been kinder to myself
[19:43]because I don't think it made the process any faster,
[19:47]you know?
[19:47]And so I think I would tell people that too.
[19:50]It's great advice.
[19:51]I love it.
[19:52]And how about any online dating advice
[19:55]or dating in your older years
[19:57]or dealing with, dealing with your...
[20:00]kids while you're dating. Any of that? Oh, goodness. I don't know that I have good advice
[20:04]for that. I had a very brief period where I tried online dating and it really did not
[20:08]work out for me. I thought I was gonna run the right person to give advice about that.
[20:14]Did you have to go and like, did you ever pretend to get to be the character? Do you
[20:21]know, do you like to, or is it all in your imagination? I could see like making a profile
[20:26]of the character, which would actually be really funny to do now. Have him be a character
[20:31]on a dating app? Oh, yeah, that's true. Well, I was mostly, it was my imagination, but I've
[20:35]also definitely had friends who have gone through the process of internet dating. So I've
[20:38]definitely, you know, asked and picked up information along the way. So I think, are you
[20:45]reading anything good? Yes, I just finished a couple of great novels actually. I just finished
[20:51]this novel called Sorrow and Bliss by Megan Wilson. Oh, I love that book. Oh, that book
[20:56]is so good. I think I missed it when it came out because it came out during the pandemic
[20:59]and I was just zoom school craziness mode. So I think I missed it, but it is just such
[21:04]a beautiful book. And it has that wonderful combination of humor and heartbreak, which I
[21:08]just love in books. So I loved that. And then I finished a recently read Tomorrow and Tomorrow
[21:15]and Tomorrow by Gabriel Zemin, which I keep hearing about. And I thought it was great and
[21:20]it gave me this new appreciation for video games and video game designers, which my nine
[21:25]year old son is very happy to hear trying to convince me how video games are the best.
[21:29]And then I always like to kind of have a couple of short story collections in the mix.
[21:33]I like to kind of read a short story before I go to sleep. So I'm revisiting two collections
[21:37]I read a while ago, which I loved. One is called Bobcat and Other Stories by Rebecca Lee.
[21:42]And it's wonderful. The stories are funny and surprising and so smart. And then a collection
[21:49]called Cowboys and East Indians by Nina McConaugly, which I think it's terrific too.
[21:55]And a lot of these stories feature Indian American characters in Wyoming. So it's really
[22:00]interesting.
[22:01]Wow. It's exciting. Oh, yeah. And by the way, great job having that old thought through.
[22:07]I'm, and everybody asked me. I'm like, Oh, what am I reading? What did I just finish?
[22:12]I know it was really good. I like how to really good run of reading later. Yeah. They
[22:17]didn't really good. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on.
[22:22]Mom's no time to read books, late blimmers and best of luck with everything coming down
[22:27]the pike. Exciting. Thank you so much. I've enjoyed this so much. Thank you. Thank you.
[22:32]Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't
[22:38]forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at mom's Don't Have Time to Read
[22:43]Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book
[22:47]club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan
[22:52]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:56]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.