Kevin Kwan, SEX AND VANITY

[1:35]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books. This thirty minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, three hundred and sixty five days a year for about thirty minutes. I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and memoir. Our books are already out now, and you can check it out on zippybooks.com. And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle features. That's at zippymag.com. We have classes at zippyclasses.com. And I recently opened a bookstore in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at 11th Street in Santa Monica. I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings, But this Here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018. And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing. Enjoy. This episode with Kevin Kwan is a special weekend rerelease. Kevin, for those of you who don't know, curated a shelf, a bookshelf at Zibby's Bookshop in Santa Monica. So if you've not been in there lately, you should go check it out and see what Kevin recommends. I hope you enjoy this episode. I had the most fun ever laughing and talking to Kevin Kwan, who is the author of Crazy Rich Asians, the international bestselling novel that has been translated into more than 30 languages. Its sequel, China Rich Girlfriend, was released in 2015, and Rich People Problems, the final book in the trilogy, followed in 2017. For several weeks in 2018, the Crazy Rich Asians trilogy commanded the top three positions of the New York Times bestseller list in almost unprecedented single author trifecta. And the film adaptation of Crazy Rich Asians became Hollywood's highest grossing romantic comedy in over a decade. I saw it. It was so good. I don't know if you've seen it. Go see it. It's so funny. In 2018, Kevin was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential people in the world. His latest book is called Sex and Vanity. I hope you enjoy our conversation. And by the way, in parentheses, well, I'm not even gonna tell you my schools, but think about what your schools say about you and you can imagine putting yourself in our conversation. Well, welcome, Kevin. Thanks so much for coming in. Moms don't have time to read books. This is such a treat. It's really a pleasure to be here. So congratulations.

[3:55]Kevin Kwan: Your next book, Sex and Vanity, is coming out. Are you excited? Do you still get excited after you've had, like, three amazing bestsellers, or or is it does the excitement die down over time or not really? No. I I I really do get excited because, you know, each book is like a new baby. And like, why wouldn't you be excited about a new baby? You know what I mean? It's like you really wanna birth it and and make sure it gets the right start in life. Right?

[4:20]Zibby Owens: Is this is this not the right time to tell you about how I felt when I was about to have my fourth child? But no, I'm kidding.

[4:26]Kevin Kwan: Yeah.

[4:27]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Maybe people will you know, different people might feel differently. Yeah, for me, it's a it's a very exciting time. You just never know, right? It's like, it's like, are people bored of reading my books? Are they going to care? Will they want to read it? What will they think? It's so it's it's it's very fraught and very exciting and very stressful all at the same time. Wow. You know, it's so funny because I'm sure people would just assume that you wouldn't be nervous at all. Right? And yet you're just a human being like everybody else, you know? Like I think that's one thing is that as readers, we assume that authors have all this confidence and that every book that comes out will just naturally be a success. But I think that the authors are just so worried about it all the time. It's it's it's continually a surprise to me.

[5:07]Kevin Kwan: Maybe it's just me, but like I I feel like everything is an experiment and you just never know, like, what people will think. And and this book especially, like, gone out on a limb to do something different. And I and I hope readers will come along with me on this ride. You know, it's it's quite different from my last three books,

[5:25]Zibby Owens: but hopefully no less fun. I thought this book was super fun and I am so appreciative that you essentially whisked me off to Capri for the time I was reading it out of the confinement of, you know, the quarantine ish situation. So I thought it was great. I thought it was great. Yay.

[5:43]Kevin Kwan: Wow. Thank you. I love It's so great to actually also be talking to someone that I actually read the book. Yes. You'd be amazed.

[5:51]Zibby Owens: No. I read the book. I appreciated all the details and all the rest of it. And I wish I could meet somebody who would offer up their hotel room to me next time I get a terrible room in a hotel and You all never know. Right? Hope springs eternal, you know? You never know. You never know. We'll see what happens next Just wear the to the right hat.

[6:12]Kevin Kwan: Wear the right hat and it'll happen. Yeah. Exactly.

[6:15]Zibby Owens: I also just every time you so whenever you introduce a character, you put in parentheses their entire educational background, and that just did not get old. I thought that was so clever and funny and just like so par for the course. You know, my husband sort of entered into this world from Florida and he's he was like, why does everybody immediately ask and explain why everybody else went to school? He's like, that was like not a question that we asked growing up. Nobody cared. And here, anyone you meet at a party is like, oh, yeah. Well, where'd you go to college? Where'd you go to business school? Or did you do this? And he was like, what is going on?

[6:48]Kevin Kwan: Bingo. This is exactly why I did that because, like, I grew up in in suburban Texas. And maybe it was just my friends or like, we were like the most low achieving people you could possibly imagine. Like our dream was like to get into like the state school. You know what I mean? So fast forward, like ten years later, I'm in New York and everyone it's just obsessed with their schools, you know, not just their colleges. It goes back to their kindergartens, especially the, you know, this particular breed of New Yorkers, I you know, grew up on the Upper East would say preschool counts too. I wouldn't discount preschool. Definitely Preschool. Yeah. And even like your mom, like which like clash she went to for like her mama's or whatever, Like, you yeah, it dates back as early as you can possibly date. And so it was always, you know, like snobbery fascinates me in all shapes and forms. So like I remember, one of my first jobs, like my coworkers, what school did you go to? And I'm so proud to have gone to a state school. Like I thought I got a great education, a quality education. And I would like proudly say that. And they were just the looks on their faces. It was like so unfathomable to them that I didn't go to like an Ivy League or like one of the cool colleges on the East Coast. So I just felt this was a really fun way to like capture that slobbery of this, that social group, number one. But I think also I play this game where like, if if you know these schools, if you know these this world, just even in that parenthesis, in that parenthesis, you can you can see someone's whole life story in just those four schools. Right? Totally. Totally. So, and then sometimes you'd go, oh wait, what happened there? Why did she go from this really prestigious prep school to this college? Exactly. You know, like what happened? You know, and then she did this, you know? So I I really played this game and and you know, to me, it's it's yet another layer that hopefully lends more richness to each character.

[8:38]Zibby Owens: No. It's so it was so it was just such a perfect, like, cliff notes version of of character description. It was great. Thank you. And I read there was a quote you had about snobbery actually in your recent piece in the Atlantic about the social codes of the very rich. And you said, you've always had a lifelong fascination with snobbery, that strange, sometimes tragic, often funny dance people take part in to prove they're richer or smarter or better stationed than someone else. So tell me a little more about when this sort of interest in snobbery

[9:08]Kevin Kwan: started. I've heard you described yourself as a total observer at times. So tell me about where that came from. I mean, it really began in grade school. So I I I grew up the first eleven years of my life in Singapore, and I went to I did not know because I didn't, you know, enroll myself there. My parents put me there. Apologizing, you know, preemptively. I went to this this school called ACS, which was like the snobbiest school in Singapore. And it was known that all the snobs meant there. And I didn't know that I was gonna be classified as one of these little snob. But when I got there, and I really realized how quickly, like there were certain kids that were like the alpha kids, right? And even the teachers would candidate them, like even to the point where it's like, I would raise my hand to answer a question, no one would ever let me answer a question because I wasn't special enough, right? There were like four anointed boys that would get to answer every question and prove their brilliance. And it's the and these four boys came from these key families that were like household names on the island. So it was so interesting to really start to realize that at age six, ah, I see what's going on here. And then you start to see the kids behaviors. And so it was just, it just sort of was kind of, I don't know, it was fascinating because I, it was so different from how I was at that point raised. Like I, my father was the most unpretentious person you'd ever meet. And his father was an extremely, extremely humble man. And so I didn't have this type of energy in my life. So to see it for the first time and then to see it kind of blow up even and get worse and worse and worse year by year, because I guess this was in the early eighties in Singapore, where the country was truly like prospering by leaps and bounds every year. And so you'd see it in like real time, like which kids got invited to the special birthday party and I'd never got invited to anything. Right? I'm No, it's totally fine. Like, I didn't care. Like, I didn't I would you know, when you're six years old or you're seven years old, like, it didn't matter. Like I had my whole life, had my friends, I had my neighborhood, you know, like I didn't care if I didn't get invited to some random kid's birthday party, but I would hear about it come Monday, like, oh my God, we went to like so and so's house and there were all these Roman statues all over the grounds of this enormous mansion. You know what mean? So I would hear these stories and, you know, and then suddenly you would see the teachers begin to suck up at this kid that before was just this lovely little kid. He was actually my friend, but suddenly the teachers all heard about the Roman statues, you know, on the grounds of his house and like suddenly he got special treatment. So it was it was interesting. And then, you know, coming from that and being plopped down, you know, at age 11 to just a normal American middle school was such a shock to the system. I bet. But I also noticed, in this school, like there was a kid who was popular and I didn't really understand why he was popular. He was nice enough, but like he almost had this mystique around him. Everyone was like, oh my god, this kid, this kid, this kid. And I found out that, you know, back in grade school, his mom drove a Maserati. And that's all it took. And that's what he's known for. Or at that time, that was what he was never. This is the kid whose mom drove a Maserati.

[12:38]Zibby Owens: You know? So it was sort of fascinating to me from an early age. And then yeah. It's funny how in Singapore, like, the thing that gets the attention are are random statues. And yet when you go to Texas, it's all about the cars and, you know Mhmm. Different cultures. I feel like you should probably write a thank you note to those four boys though from your first school to thank them because maybe without them, you wouldn't have written all this stuff and become like this mass of success. So maybe you deserve some, thanks for their outrageous lifestyles.

[13:07]Kevin Kwan: Yeah. I wish I could remember their names. I really would love to get back in touch with some of those kids and see, you know, where are they now. But I just, like, I I left when I was 11 and sadly, there was, like, really only I kept in touch with like one kid, like my one best friend. Yeah. And the rest just kind of fell by the wayside and yeah.

[13:27]Zibby Owens: And it's so funny because I read that you said about yourself that you're not a creative person. So tell me about that because I would argue that you are a creative person even though obviously I don't even know you, but just having read your books, like, why do you think you're not creative? Like, think that all the material just sort of fell from the heavens type of thing. I really think that as a writer, right, there there are some people who can just dream up worlds,

[13:51]Kevin Kwan: you know, like people who write sci fi or fantasy books and even some novelists can really, especially if they write write period pieces set in like sixteenth century France or whatever. There's a pure imagination that I just don't have. My stories all really come from a place of observation. If I can't see it, if I haven't been in the story, haven't witnessed the situation, I can't write about it. I can't just make up a character from nothing. Just like I can't make up a situation from nothing. Intensely visual. And so much of it comes from my visual memory. So in that sense, feel like I'm not a pure creator. I'm really someone who just remembers and who's observed, and I'm I'm resetting it on the page and retelling what I've seen. So does this mean you've gone to a wedding like the one you wrote about in sex and vanity? Like the the whole the whole week of activities and and, you know, accompanying dress codes and everything? Yeah. Totally. I mean, it wasn't that wedding per se, you know, but I've been to I've been to weddings like that.

[14:51]Zibby Owens: And so I was able to use that departure point and and really kind of restyle and and make it even more over the top in in this book. And how did you pick that? You've obviously been in lots of different outrageous awesome situations that could you could have written about. Why did you pick this format and and a wedding like this and these particular characters? Like, how did you arrive at that?

[15:13]Kevin Kwan: Well, interestingly, I mean, with with this wedding in particular in Taprey, it takes place at Villa Lysis, which is one of the most beautiful villas on the planet. And it's not a public museum, you know, so like I've been there several times and even my first time going to Villa Lysis and visiting it, the setting is so spectacular. And I was like, woah, this would be a great spot for like a party or a wedding. So already I lodged that in my head. This is a book that I've been writing in my mind for like ten years. Right? Every time I would go to Capri, I would collect places, I would collect situations and it'd be like, how can I weave this into my story? So definitely being there, being at this beautiful villa, I could see I could just see a whole wedding take place there. And then a few years later, I made a new friend, and she got married at Villa Lysa. She literally had the wedding for dreams there, and it was photographed in Vogue. You can Google it. You know, you just Google the Alisa's wedding. You will see her amazing beautiful wedding. It's gorgeous what she did and how she transformed the palace. You know, so that so that was another inspiration point seeing, oh, wow, like she really made it happen. But I think in her case, she also helped to pay for a lot of restoration of the place, which is really great. They were able to build like new structures on the property and stuff like that. You And know, so that was another inspiration point seeing a real wedding happened there, you know, unfold in these beautiful pictures. And then using that and using many other weddings I've been to, I kinda cobbled together my sort of dream wedding for this couple. If you know what I mean? Yes. So like I directed this wedding out of so many different inspiration points. I have now Googled and I'm looking at all the pictures of the wedding at Phil Lysis while we're talking. Are they not unbelievable. Oh my gosh. It's unbelievable. And it's, you know, she did it in such a classy way. You know what I mean? Like, it's it was so intimate, so full of love, and it's over the top, but it's still just exquisite.

[17:15]Zibby Owens: You know? Well, this is this is now on my on my wish list is to find somebody I know who will get married here and invite me.

[17:23]Kevin Kwan: I'll have to Me too. Or as I told my family, I wish I could, like, get in a time machine that we would have met, like, two years earlier and then I would have been invited it to your wedding. Yeah, totally.

[17:32]Zibby Owens: Maybe my kids, maybe I can start campaigning for a wedding here. I've only got thirty years to work on it.

[17:40]Kevin Kwan: Totally. Yeah. But yeah, so it's a beautiful fantasy spot And, you know, like with all my books, I'm trying to transport people and just give them a really fun ride, you know, into a world that's just fantastical and yet rooted enough and grounded enough in reality to where they can actually relate.

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[20:42]Zibby Owens: So it's this whole funny thing in society right now, I feel like, because there's so much anti wealth sentiment. Right? Everybody in every article is just, like, down with the wealth. Like, it's like, you know, a crime to be a wealthy person. And yet, there is obviously this enormous fascination. Right? The proof is in the pudding of you're selling, like, bazillion copies of your books because people want a piece of it. So they wanna see it and yet they have to publicly

[21:09]Kevin Kwan: discount it. I don't know. What do you make of that whole thing? I think there's a fascination and revulsion because I all I also see, like, you know, I I get comments on on my, you know, Instagram and and I I see some people, they're like, we love the story, but, like, we wish the people weren't so wealthy, you know? And I'm like, do you really? I mean, would you actually be interested in reading about them if they were just like crazy middle class Asians? You know what I mean? Like, that's a whole other book. You know what I mean? Like, and that's very valid, absolutely. But I think since the beginning of time, people have been fascinated by, I think power and the people who are at the top of the pyramid beginning with the pharaoh. Yeah. You know what I mean? Beginning of stories of the pharaoh that was passed down through grot gossip to stories in the bible, by the rich and powerful, to Machiavelli, to to Shakespeare. You know, even during the Spanish flu, people were reading Edith Wharton's books and Henry James's books and sort of escaping into these worlds. And I think what also is important is that, I think for people who are not in that 1%, it's kind of gratifying to see that, these rich people have problems too. You know what I mean? There is a universality to experience. It brings them down, to bring down these characters to have to reckon with the fates and to have to experience the tragedies and the dramas of their lives. So I think people are always riveted you know, by that. You know, certainly in my books, like I I go to great lengths. I'm not glorifying the wealth, you know, I'm just portraying it as I see it. And I'm also revealing that in these world, are decent people who understand and who realize that they're extremely privileged in a in a in a world that's completely full of inequality and who are trying to make a difference. So really, you're doing a public service.

[23:03]Zibby Owens: You're like helping out a whole group of people. It's very nice of you.

[23:09]Kevin Kwan: Making people more relatable and everything. It's perfect. I don't know if you can say that. Yeah. But yeah. And I think especially with sex and vanity, you know, like in Crazy Rich Asians, I really doubled down on, like, the lavish descriptions and the brand name dropping and all of that because that to me captured how these people really are. It's interesting because like I would go to Hong Kong and I would meet friends and visit relatives and everyone is just name dropping, brand name dropping a mile a minute. And they're fascinated by like, oh, what are you wearing? Who made your shoes? Who made your watch? You know, like stuff that would never come up in a conversation in The United States. It is a cultural difference over there. It's not seen as rude to ask like, oh, who made your shirt and how much you pay for it? You know what I mean? So I wanted to really accurately portray that world and it's satire, you know, and making fun of these people. That's what, you know, lot of people fail to like remember. And in this new series, it's it's they do come from privilege, but that's sort of beside the point in many ways. Mhmm. Interesting. I, you know, I I hope you agree. You know, it's it's, you know, Lucy isn't driven by money in any way, shape or form. Like, she's got other issues she's dealing with. Yes. It's just a backdrop. It's just like one character element,

[24:27]Zibby Owens: essentially. Yeah.

[24:29]Kevin Kwan: But it's not her defining element as it is for some people. You know, like Eddie in my Crazy Horizons series, he's completely defined by his status symbols and his position and his wealth and his, you know, net worth every day. Well, I think Whereas Lucy and George and and, you know, some of the other characters in this book, it they're they're totally have completely different values. Right. And maybe That's reflective of where they come from. And maybe there's more of a relatability

[24:54]Zibby Owens: factor in that in that they have, you know, normal thoughts and feelings and maybe it's easier almost to put yourself in their shoes and feel like you're living this life. I don't know. I mean Yeah. Everything was great but

[25:08]Kevin Kwan: I mean, you sympathetic to their plight?

[25:13]Zibby Owens: You want me to be? Did you want me to be? No. Yes. I am sympathetic to their place. I mean, I don't have anything against any groups of people. I mean, you can't help the family you're born into. And there are wonderful people who have all different levels of wealth. And I think that any issues you're having are your own issues to deal with. And just because you might be more privileged in some ways than others doesn't mean the pain is any less. The pain of grief or loss and I don't know. I mean, it doesn't matter what you have. It love and loss and connection, that's all the same stuff. The outside is just the the backdrop for it in a way.

[25:52]Kevin Kwan: But anyway, that's my own 2¢. I I I absolutely agree. And I think actually wealth amplifies that and and a lot of times complicates and makes things worse.

[26:01]Zibby Owens: It can. Yeah. You're totally For people, it can. Yep. You know? Well, especially because people assume if you are wealthy that nothing should be bothering you ever. And that's not fair. Mhmm. Right? Is it? Your characters have things bother them. They sure do. Otherwise, it wouldn't be interesting. Exactly. Why would you be reading? Right. Yeah. Totally. Exactly. Tell me a little more about your writing process. Like, did how much of this book do you have outlined? I love how you did it by, you know, the place of all the events and all of that. Like, do you have all of that thought out before you start writing, or does it happen as you go? How what's your process like? It's totally I'm like the messiest,

[26:38]Kevin Kwan: most haphazard writer you'll you can possibly meet. So it's like I'm handling this big muddy block and I'm fully just chipping away at it, you know, until it becomes something that I wanna look at. So I don't really outline at all. I have an idea and I write actually chronologically, you know, so it just keeps building. I I can't skip from chapter to chapter. I can't write something three chapters down. So I really tell the story as it evolves and the characters really, once I set an idea, the characters really take over as a dialogue that comes out and the situations that happen. Like, because I write so quickly, you know, I almost in like a trance state when I write. You know, I always write, it's just sort of, I let it all come out and then the next morning I'll go back and read it. And like, every day I go back and I go, wait a minute, what happened? You know, like who wrote this? I really see that in many, many of my chapters and scenes, you know, especially with the crazier characters like, you know, that will express themselves. It's like, I don't know where this came from, but okay, let's go with it because this now changes the situation. Right? And let's just go there. So I'm very, very experimental and haphazard and in what I do. And I kind of, I can't imagine writing an outline and being like having to commit to like a structure. That's

[28:06]Zibby Owens: just not how I work. So how long did this book take to write?

[28:10]Kevin Kwan: It actually took four months. Wow. This is the fastest book I've written. And I think a lot of it was because I was I was sort of, I was given a break in between a TV project to really like have some time to write a novel. I really wanted to maximize the time. This was all pre COVID had I known that, you know, this would happen. I would have been like, give me a year and let me do half of this while I'm

[28:36]Zibby Owens: socially isolating, but you know, it worked out the way it did. No. I see that. I'm I'm totally glad I yeah. Sometimes too much time can be, you know, sort of a devil you have to work against as well. I feel like if you get know, it's like that whole expression, give a busy person something to do and you'll get it done. But I don't know. Yeah. No. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[28:54]Kevin Kwan: So it it it, you know, it happened when it had to happen and I'm I'm really I was worried at first I wouldn't have enough time and it would be haphazard to haphazard and it ended up being, you know, just exactly right. And I like turned in my final draft right before we all went into lockdown. And I'm glad I did because I don't know if I would be able to channel that kind of joy, you know Yep. In these times, you know. Like, I think if I was still writing it when we went into lockdown and when the pandemic was was happening, it would probably have a very different ending.

[29:28]Zibby Owens: It'd probably be a lot darker, you know, because you are affected by by what what's happening in the world. But now we need the joy in this book more than ever. I mean, it could not be more welcome than than the a more welcome sort of distraction from the current state of the world. It's like the perfect antidote at this exact moment. I I I really hope so. I really hope so. That's really kind of all I'm trying to do. I'm just trying to heal through laughter. That's awesome. I love that. About medicine, as they say.

[29:56]Kevin Kwan: Are you already working on another book or no? Sounds like no, but most you must be. The minute I finished the minute I finished and handed in the master, I had to start back on on this TV series that I've been developing. So I'm back in TV land writing a script every day. Wow. And it's a whole different process because it's collaborative. You know, I'm I'm working a whole team of writers. So that's the new adventure for for the moment.

[30:20]Zibby Owens: Well, that's exciting. Very cool. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?

[30:24]Kevin Kwan: I always say, like, you really don't be afraid to, like, really take a chance and let your freak flag fly. Seriously, because that's what I I did. You know, I I wrote a book called Great Research Asians about these crazy people, and I wrote stuff that I, in in my normal life, would never write. You know, even as someone who studied writing, creative writing, like I used to write these very composed, very kind of minimalist essays and poems and stuff like that. And like here, this is just this crazy mess of a book that just I think people really respond to because I was able to, you know, to really tap into this very authentic weirdo that's in me. That if I tried to overcraft it, you know what I mean? If I tried to turn in like too polished a thing that appeal to certain demographic or, know, like, I think a lot of times people try to write what they think other people want to read. And I think that's really, really self destructive. You know, just write for yourself. Write and express your real voice and your real story. Tell it like you wanna tell it, and don't think about how it's gonna be received because I really didn't, I didn't intend for my book to even be published. I was just gonna write them and like self publish and share them with a few friends and that know me well. So like, I felt like I was in a safe space and I could really go there and like write these strange stories that have nothing to do with my everyday life.

[31:51]Zibby Owens: And then look what happened.

[31:53]Kevin Kwan: Oh, look what happened. Yeah. So I just that's my encouragement to people like, you know, dare to be original, you know, and dare to tell the truth,

[32:00]Zibby Owens: your own truth. I love it. Well, Kevin, thank you. Thanks so much for coming on Mom's No Time to Read Books and that was so fun.

[32:08]Kevin Kwan: This was really, really so fun. And I I do find, you know, I I hope everyone's doing well and people will find a little bit of, you know, peace and calm from reading, whether it's my books or someone else's books. I know I've been reading more than I ever have read in the last four months. I've been reading a lot more fiction because I need that escape too. Totally. You know? Me too. I'm I'm right there with you. Yeah. Totally. You know, I have to like, you know, now I have to like ration my news every day so I don't get too mad in the morning. And then I go to go to sleep every night reading, like, a good piece of fiction. Totally. That's the recipe for,

[32:44]Zibby Owens: surviving these times.

[32:46]Kevin Kwan: Exactly. Well

[32:47]Zibby Owens: Awesome. Best of luck. You too. And thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's lot of fun. I appreciate it. Okay. Bye bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com, and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.