Jodie Patterson, THE BOLD WORLD: A Memoir of Family and Transformation

[1:29]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. This thirty minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, three hundred and sixty five days a year for about thirty minutes. I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and memoir. Our books are already out now. You can check it out on zippybooks.com. And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle features. That's at zippymag.com. We have classes at zippyclasses.com. And I recently opened a bookstore in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at one one one three Montana Avenue at 11th Street in Santa Monica. I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings, but this here podcast is the basis of all of it Started in 2018 and no matter what I do, is basically my favorite thing. Enjoy. This is a special re release of Jodi Patterson's episode because I just loved getting to know Jodi. I loved this episode. I loved her book. And Jodi has her career has just totally taken off since this podcast. She's like in a bazillion campaigns and doing such cool things. So I just thought you all should get to know her. Oh my gosh. I did not want my interview with Jodi Patterson to end. I had a feeling it was gonna be great because I loved her book so much. It's called The A Memoir of Family and Transformation. And it was so good. It's really one of my favorite memoirs of the whole year and probably of all time, but it was just she's such a good writer. Anyway, here's her bio. Jodi Patterson is a social activist, entrepreneur, and writer. She has been lauded for her activist work by Hillary Clinton, The Advocate, Family Circle, Essence, Cosmopolitan, and Yahoo among others. She works closely with a number of gender slash family slash human rights organizations, including serving as chair of the board of the Human Rights Capital Foundation and is a sought after public speaker addressing a wide range of audiences about identity, gender, beauty, and entrepreneurship. She was appointed by the United Nations as a champion for change. And perhaps most impressively, it says this is in her bio, I'm not making this up. She is a former circus acrobat who performed in the Big Apple Circus. She lives in Brooklyn, New York where she co parents her five children with love, education, and family solidarity. Enjoy our conversation. I had the best time, and in some way, I'm going to continue this in some format. So enjoy. Welcome, Jody. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[3:59]Jodie Patterson: The classic. I love the name of your podcast. And I'm so happy to be here. And I'm glad that sometimes we do actually have a moment to read. Me too. I don't know what I would do without books. Yeah, I have a stack of books on the side of my bed, at my desk, in my living room. And sometimes I just read, you know, two pages or something like that, which many years that felt like a failure when I did if I couldn't, like, finish the entire book, Right? And now I just really enjoy reading two pages, five pages. And so it take I mean, it takes me forever to finish a book, but just the process of reading without the pressure is really good. I totally agree. I used to feel like if I didn't finish it in a certain amount of time, it was on my nightstand too long, I had to shuffle it out because there were new books. And I've I was always feeling like disappointed in myself. And really, it doesn't have to be start to finish. A little glimpse in someone else's life and mind is such a treat. Yeah. That feeling of like not being accomplished is just it's probably habitual for for many of us. Yes. I'm trying not to feel that way, but I noticed myself. I have to, like, fight the temptation to feel unaccomplished even by, like, not finishing a book. Who cares? Right?

[5:10]Zibby Owens: I know. I'm like, oh, you should have finished that. There's a new Ta Nehisi Coates book out. You know, you need to get on that. Totally. I I'm like constantly feeling behind. Meanwhile, it's impossible to keep up on every single book coming out every day. I even like put this pressure on myself once I start a series like on Netflix or like, I'm not even finished with Normal People and it's been so long. How could I when am I going to finish this series? What if I forget? It doesn't even matter.

[5:34]Jodie Patterson: And then, I think for me, and I'm probably just jumping into this off, you know, topic conversation, but like when March came and when the world changed pace, and when many of us didn't leave our homes for weeks, I just remembered another way of living. And it's like, it's such a strange time, I know there's so much pain and so much death, but there's something really for me optimistic about right now and powerful. And part of that is just the change of pace for me. I needed that. I needed a break, like not a break as in a timeout, but a break, like a crack. I mean, we've seen a huge explosion, right, with COVID and with the murder of George Floyd. And I just in a sense, I think it is just a powerful time. We can redo a lot of we can change a lot of things. So I take it actually as a, like, as a blessing in a sense right now, this this time. It's helpful to look at things that way. I think I know you have

[6:31]Zibby Owens: many kids and I have many kids and where everybody's trying to do so much. It's like almost impossible to keep up at the pace. And I know we were talking earlier about living in New York and not living in New York. And I also feel there's some freneticness to just living there. Like it's go, go, go, go. And almost everyone I've talked to since the pandemic is like, I don't want to turn that back on. Like that was a lot. You know? Like I had a girlfriend who's like, even just like getting my eyelashes extended, like I can't even do it anymore. You know? Done.

[7:04]Jodie Patterson: I know, done. And it's funny how we all can relate to something like that. I I said the same thing. Actually stopped doing my lashes, stopped with toes and fingers and all that stuff. And yet, and still life continued. It continued. And we find new ways to be beautiful. I don't take for granted the small things in life that make us feel pretty or glamorous, but we can find, those things can be created over and over again. So it's not that we don't want the act of something pretty, but it's like, we don't have to be stuck in one act, you know? And my lashes, I actually really enjoy getting my individual lashes put in, and I love the way it looks. But that's not what's happening right now. And so I've found other ways. I've found glasses that are fun. I love those glasses. Those are awesome. Yeah. And actually, what I also noticed is if I do a run-in the morning and sweat, then my eyes look less puffy. And it's like natural makeup.

[7:57]Zibby Owens: There you go. You know? Two in one. Two benefits. Yeah. I just completely relate to all of that. I feel like if I run-in the morning, end up hobbling around. But anyway, aside from that, it's usually good. I actually started your book on audio and then switched to paper when I was reading yours. Audio is like a new thing for me. But anyway, I loved it. And it was you reading it. So it's like amazing. So I feel like inadvertently, like you and I took this nice long run together and you just didn't know.

[8:28]Jodie Patterson: I loved writing the book. And that was over, you know, many months, maybe two years, actually, I think about it. And I also loved recording the book in, you know, an audio format. It was several days, I think four days of studio work, which I had never done before. And no one likes the sound of their voice. You know, it's creepy to hear your own self speak. But the book is so intensely personal. And I went to places, I had to recall things that were really deep down and buried. I recalled them by looking at my journals, and looking at letters, and pulling out notes that I had scribbled down and tucked away in drawers. So I was like unearthing a lot of stuff, memories. And so when I was recording it, I was sort of in my really in my emotions and really in my feelings holding sometimes I wasn't able to hold back the tears, just recording it. And so it it took it off of the vanity level. Because on the vanity level, I don't like to hear my voice, but it was such a powerful moment for me to record my own words, because those words had been dying to get out for since I was a kid in many situations. So I do I take it like as a as a blessing to be able to write the book, but also then to record the book. And some actually, here's a secret. Sometimes I go back and listen to my own audio.

[9:48]Zibby Owens: I love that. Why not? Oh,

[9:52]Jodie Patterson: man. I do. Sometimes if I just need a good cry or a good laugh.

[9:56]Zibby Owens: See, this is like an unanticipated benefit of writing a book and recording it. You can it's like your own therapy. It's like self fulfilling. Maybe we should back up a sec about the book and how it even came to be a book. I mean, you first of all, I have to just say that since I started this book, I have been recommending it to, like, right and left. I was like, I love memoir and I read lots of memoirs. And this was just just just like stood apart. It's so good. And I've been trying to tell people, I'm like, well, it's marketed a little bit about her having a transgender child, but I think it's mismarketed a bit because that's one piece. But like, it could have been a child with anything. It's how she handled it. Like, I had a child with, let's say, eczema. Do you know what mean? Like, I know that's not to minimize, but it's really about you. It's about you and your life and the things that you had to deal with across the board from start to finish. And that is like it's more than a coming of age. It's like it's just amazing from the parenting to the being parented. Okay. Anyway, go. I now you talk. No. I'm

[11:00]Jodie Patterson: bursting because I'm so glad you saw that and said it so poignantly because the book is not a story of my son. I have five children. One is trans. My third child identifies as a trans boy. And that means when he was born, I assumed a girl. I looked at the body, the doctors looked at the body, and we said, Oh, you have a girl. And we named that child Penelope after grandma. And then by age, within the first year, was all of this unrest in Penelope and anger. And by two and then two and a half, Penelope had become a bully. Penelope was pissed off, crying all the time. And so temper tantrums, and I really couldn't figure it out. I was trying to do everything like change the diet, take out dairy, make everything vegan, read more stories, tell Penelope how much I loved Penelope, snuggle, and nothing worked until one day Penelope just said, mama, everyone thinks I'm a girl, I'm not. I'm a boy. And that is like the impetus for my growth. So it's really not and and so there's so much weighs on this one kid. But as you know, a mom of multiples, your your life is not one kid. And so it took me a minute to get out of the darkness of realizing that your kid is so different from anything you've ever imagined. That was pretty scary. But the real book is about the the crux of the book is about how I was able to shift my way of thinking. And you're right, that kid, that unexpected twist could be anything. I mean, as we see now, it's like COVID. Mhmm. Like, life delivers a sinkhole, you know, something that you're a fisher, something you're not expecting, and you have to deal with it. Penelope was my disruption in life, in a sense, a beautiful disruption. I thought it was I thought it was gonna be, you know, the the end of the family. I look back at it now, and I'm laughing because I thought, oh, gosh, what's it gonna mean for Penelope? What's it gonna mean for our family? We're doomed. And it was most it was one of the most profound breaks in reality that forced us to create a new reality. And we're better off for it. But so the reality is, yes, any mom could listen to this or read this book, because it's really how do we shift? How do we shift for our kids? How do we keep a flexible mind? And how do we stay with the ones we love, even when we don't understand or even if we don't agree? I mean, not everyone in my house agrees on this big concept of gender. Mhmm. We just don't one kid said, well, I mean, I love my brother. I always use the right pronouns, but scientifically, you're a girl. Like, let's we have to, you know, stick to science. Now I know that the science shows gender fluidity and gender diversity, but this is my kid also who's saying, I love my brother, but I don't believe that gender is anything more than two options, male or female. And so they've they've been talking this out for ten years. They still don't agree.

[13:54]Zibby Owens: But they eat dinner together. They play basketball together. They live in the same house together. You know, this is what the book really taught me that we just don't have to agree. We have to just be use decorum. We have to discuss and debate with decorum and then shoot some basketball together at the end of the day. Which PS is like the best advice for the world at large. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like everybody right now. That is not just about within families. And I feel like every parent can relate to or every person who's grown up in a family with many can relate to the incessant fighting of the stupidest things or the biggest things and not being able to agree. Because after all, I mean, yes, you have shared DNA, but every kid that comes out is like completely different. You know? I mean, completely. Some have some of my kids have like nothing in common and then others are very similar. And I'm like, where did all these people come from? I it's like, what would it's insane. But the ability to like tolerate that and

[14:47]Jodie Patterson: make sense and navigate. I mean, I think many grown ups would be wise to heed that type of advice. It takes a lot of practice. It takes a lot of time. So it's not the efficient way to run a house. Sometimes we'll sit into and you're right. It's about little things and big things. Like, who gets the front seat in the car? Mhmm. It'd be a argument. And then how do we look at gender? A massive disagreement. And so we we have this process, it's called the lab, and we sit down on the floor, and each person can speak as long as they want. If you have the microphone, you speak, and you can take however long you want. And in my house, that can be hours. But, you know, you can't interrupt, and you have to just speak your truth. And so we'll talk about gender, and the identity of being trans, and we'll talk about faith. The same kid who doesn't see transgender as a reality also doesn't see God as a reality, as a scientific reality. And I'm thinking to myself, who raised you? Like, how can you be my child? I'm a member of my church, and I have a strong faith, and then here's my kid, who I raised, who scientifically says that God cannot exist scientifically. And so, like, at a certain point, I just am not willing to throw the kid out.

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[19:12]Jodie Patterson: How many kids do you have? I have four kids. You've got four. Mhmm. Five, man. It's not five. I mean Well, I had I had I birthed four, and then no. I birthed three.

[19:25]Zibby Owens: No, I birthed four. No, no, I birthed You should know this, you should have this part down. Okay,

[19:31]Jodie Patterson: so I did have, I was, I had three on the earth, and I had my fourth in my belly, and I adopted a young man while I was pregnant, I believe, with my fourth. So he came technically at the end of all of the children, so he's our baby in that sense, but he's the oldest because we met when he was 18. So I've got, you know, two, three children from my second marriage, one child from my first marriage, and then one adopted. It's really a blended family. And when you talk about being right or being with the ones you love, you know, that's the story of blended families. There's no one right. Like, there's just a million rights every freaking day.

[20:12]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. It's true. And I loved in the book your whole story of how you ended up adopting him and, like, coming into the it was a record store, wasn't it? But your store was a beauty store's. But I thought there was something to do with records or he was bringing records or selling with music. He's really into music, and we talk for hours about music. Yes. Okay. So in my head, I turned your beauty salon into a music. I mean, I I would've I know exactly what you were doing, but in that scene, had you somewhere else in my head. So this is what happens when I don't read and I listen. Things are not perfect. But that whole thing, I mean, that's like just to take on another person like that and the way you did it. And that's, I mean, that's really amazing with all the stuff you had going on. And I don't know. It definitely wasn't I know, but still.

[20:54]Jodie Patterson: It's still on this on paper. Well, I'll say this. When I came home that month and told my husband at the time, we have a new child. The child is 18, and he's moving in. My husband thought I was really being irrational, and quite dangerous to the family, right? So it sounds like, in hindsight, it's this really beautiful story, but in the moment we had a real clash between my husband and I, I kept saying, I know it's irrational, but it makes sense in a heart way. Not in a logistical way, but in a heart way, it makes sense. And he said, No, absolutely not. We cannot take a grown man into the house that we don't know. So there was like, maybe a month where the two of them would play basketball together on the courts and take walks together on the pier, on the Hudson River, and they got to know each other. So my, you know, husband who was, what, 40, and this child, young man who was 18, they had their own way of developing their own relationship. And at the end of that month, my husband said, Okay, you're right. He's special. He's ours, we're his. And we joined as a family, but, you know, it deserves its own book.

[22:01]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I was going to say, you could flush that one out pretty easily. If you write that book, and I know you're already working on other books, but a minute ago, you said that, you know, finding out about Penelope and when he said that he wasn't a girl, was a boy, you called that a beautiful disruption. And I think that would be a good title. So you could just, you know, you should just store that one away for something.

[22:20]Jodie Patterson: Right. Right now, I have been thinking about that a lot because COVID well, I don't know if you know this, but I was patient three positive with COVID

[22:30]Zibby Owens: in the state of Nevada. I didn't know you were patient three, but I've been following your Instagram where you talked all about it. And I'm so I can't believe that that happened to you. I really and that you were separated from your family for so long. Like, tell me a little about that. This podcast could give you, like, five hours. I have to, like, be careful here. I could talk to you forever. Oh my gosh. Well, tell me tell me about about being patient three.

[22:51]Jodie Patterson: So I I was traveling as I do a lot for work. I was speaking and I was on a plane, then a train, then a bus, then a plane. Was Black History Month, which was February, which is a big month for my speaking gigs. Going into Women's History Month, March, another big month for being in conversation. So I had just been flying and my immune system was really shitty. You know, I was tired changing on the plane, know, changing in the airport. And I get to Vegas on Friday, I speak on Saturday. By Sunday, I have this excruciating migraine and spinal pain and joint pain. And I put on some pajamas at the hotel, and I asked the, I had to make my way downstairs and asked the taxi cab driver to take me to the nearest hospital, simply because the pain was so intense. I didn't really, I mean, I knew of COVID, of course, right? We were aware of it then, no one was wearing masks. I was wiping down my hand, my doorknobs at the hotel, but I wasn't thinking that this was COVID. I had no symptoms that were typical, no congestion, no bronchial, no fever, but I had just excruciating body pain and head pain. Get to the hospital, never left. So I was there for two weeks positive with COVID, third patient in the state, but also just, I had, I guess the lucky part was that I had an entire hospital with the attention of the entire, like it wasn't overcrowded. The doctors were attentive. And then at the end of two weeks, I was able to come home. But those two weeks felt like forever. I had no one there with me. My family wasn't there. You know, I was a bit anonymous in terms of like, being in the hospital is a weird thing. One, you're just you're a patient. So you're anonymous in that sense, they just have to treat you in a way that just doesn't feel very personal. I don't know how to describe that. But then also, I've noticed this thing where, as a woman, as a black woman, if I'm not, if you don't know my title, like, I don't know, one of my titles is chairman of the board of the Human Rights Campaign Foundation. If you don't know, if you haven't read my book, right, or if you haven't, if I don't have my clothing on right, if I roll out of bed, if I don't have jewelry, or if I don't have lipstick or something that registers for non black people, they just I was treated like a random person. People were talking over me and around me. They weren't I didn't have pain medication for the first twelve hours. I never toilet. Kept asking for things. And it sounds like a one off and people say, well, you know, they were, it's just what hospitals do, but it's more than what hospitals do, because I've been in the hospital a lot with my pregnancies. And I've seen it over and over and over and over again, where they just don't understand, they don't believe what I'm telling them. And I kept telling them, I'm in a lot of pain. Please test me for COVID. And it took a while for people to get to communicate with me in the way that I'm used to being communicated outside in the world. And so that was a really difficult experience to be alone

[25:51]Zibby Owens: experiencing without an advocate. And I'm used to being the advocate. Right? So I want I didn't have what I needed for the first few days. I am so sorry you had to go through that. I mean, an hour in a hospital is like a year in human time. Like, I feel like hospitals are this awful time warp and you you know, our whole lives are treated based on who we are emotionally and everything. And once you're in the medical setting, it's your body, which half the time we pay no attention to. Like, what do what do I I mean, I don't know. I don't even pay attention. My vitals, like, who cares? I'm I'm, you know, I I have better things to I'm I'm too busy for that. But in the hospital, forget it. It's like and also there's that feeling of being trapped. Like, I remember going to the emergency room for various things. Like, well, you can't leave yet. And I'm like, well, I I'm the one who came here. Like, do you mean? My head's fine now or whatever it was, you know. Anyway, so definitely Totally out of your hands. Right? Totally. Yes. Sorry about that. Anyway, but having to go through that and the uncertainty, and that's such an interesting point of view that you had. I mean, that's terrible. It's really awful. And there's so many studies on that, like just how women are treated differently in hospitals, and then how black women are treated differently in hospitals,

[26:54]Jodie Patterson: and how we don't survive similar situations, Black women compared to non Black women, simply because we are not taken for our word, and we are misdiagnosed, and we are, I mean, Serena Williams, so many women have spoken about this, where their bodies are, of course, not theirs in the hospital, but also their sense of what's going on is not taken into consideration. So I had that experience with COVID, where I was really torn from my reality, being sick, but also being in the hospital, and being without family. And I had to, interestingly enough, rely on some of the techniques that I had developed from raising my son who identifies as trans. And some of those techniques, would think, I mean, I thought this is a technique to raise a trans kid, but it's really a technique to do with life. We were talking about that earlier, like, I developed some skills raising Penelope that I was able to apply in the hospital to help just mother myself. Like what? Well, like detachment, right? And this is something, it's very esoteric in a sense. I think that we need to teach our children, and perhaps ourselves first as mothers to be able to detach. And I don't mean to like disregard, but to detach from the things that define us. So as a mother, I needed to learn how to detach. Well, I'll start from as Penelope needed to be able to detach from any thing that I needed him to be. I needed him to be a girl at first, because that's what I thought. I needed him to be this really bubbly, smart, beautiful girl named Penelope, in all of these great vintage dresses, and this beautiful blonde afro. I needed that so badly, because that made sense. But I had to teach Penelope to detach from certain obligations. Because you cannot be free if you're always attached to things. It doesn't mean to detach forever. So as an adult, as a woman, I've learned there are some things that define me. Being a mother, my children define me, my husbands have defined me, my morals have defined me, jobs. And at some point during each day or month, I detach from all of that. So my kids go to their dad's house. I don't cook a meal if I don't want to. I might do something really wild, like have sex with my boyfriend in the kitchen on the table and play it. Right? This is like, these moments of detachment are radical for women, they're radical for our children, they don't last very long. My kids come back and I go back to the routines, but I'm better. I'm more creative, I'm looser, I'm, no pun intended, I'm more flexible in my mind, I am a better leader, I have more vision. So I had to detach in the hospital. And I had practiced that with my son, Penelope, and with my children and with myself. And in the hospital, I was able to detach in a sense, where the hospital did not bring me down 100%. It didn't scare me 100%. It didn't make me depressed 100%. I was able to kind of detach myself and hover above it all.

[30:04]Zibby Owens: Some people call it meditation. I like the detachment. And by the way, I have the same thing as you, and I have so few people who I ever talk to about it because I'm remarried. I got divorced five years ago. I have a new husband. We don't have the kids every other weekend, and I have like a dual identity. It's like who I am on like today versus who I would be if you talked to me Friday is like night and day. And it's it's amazing. And then I I'm like so revived because I have time to remember who I was. Right? It's just insane that the, you know I mean, it's hard. Like, I feel and I don't know how you feel, but, like, sometimes when the kids are gone, I'm I'm just, like, crying. I just can't stop. I feel so, like, torn apart. Other times, I'm like, well, this isn't this isn't bad. But either way, when they come back, I'm better off for it. But I don't know. It is crazy that detachment that you're talking about and the two parts of being a mom and then when you're without your anyway, we should just have some coffee at some point.

[31:00]Jodie Patterson: Yeah, we can swap stories. I think we get better at detachment over time. At first, it feels reckless. Yes. Women, I mean, there's so much around this. We derive our worth from our children, from others. We are really taught how to be good wives, and good mothers, and good citizens, and good employees. And much of the work, much of the profit of families, and of the, I would say the world, is on the free labor of moms and women, right? We really have supported a lot of things. And so we understand how important we are to anchor our families. But so when we are away from that, it feels reckless, it feels guilty. I feel guilty about it. But over time, I have learned how important it is, not just for me selfishly, but for my children, for me to learn how to detach. Because I'm telling you, when I come back to them after that week or hour, I'm better. I'm better raising them. So it's not like I'm just doing it for myself. I think we should be doing things for ourselves. But also the benefit, the upside of detachment is when we come back to our team, we're better leaders. And that to me is the goal. I don't wanna be I wanna be a really good leader of my team. Right? Yes. You're absolutely amazing. So

[32:15]Zibby Owens: I just wanna ask you a couple of quick questions because I feel like I've anyway, what books are you working on now? Because you said you were hard at work. And then I want some advice for aspiring authors.

[32:25]Jodie Patterson: Okay. So I wrote The Bold World, which is the first book, my memoir. And then I wrote a children's book called, entitled The True Story of a Born Named Penelope. And I wrote that with the help of my children, because I wanted the child's perspective, Penelope's perspective of how he helped his communities to change and to shift and to support him. So the Bold World was my story, but the true story of a boy named Penelope is Penelope's perspective on it. So my kids helped me with the language, and they helped me with the storyline, and that will come out at the end of the year. Exciting. And that was really exciting to do, a children's book. And then my third book that I'm working on now, which is still taking me some time, is about radical parenting. And these sort of lessons that I've learned over time that develop in the home, but can be used beyond the home. So it's looking at mothering as sort of like this architectural power structure. Oh Yeah, it's not like, I'm not talking about mothering like hugs and kisses mothering, I'm talking about the strategies that we mothers, some mothers have used to build up our community of children. And then you can take that strategy, and I use it actually in the boardroom. I use it on the streets or in classrooms or in startup communities when I'm going to talk to businesses. It's mothering as an architectural power structure. I love that. Oh my gosh. Well,

[33:55]Zibby Owens: I'm here if you need a proofreader or something. I need that. I need that book like tomorrow. Need better management of That's my of my community

[34:05]Jodie Patterson: awesome. Any advice to aspiring authors? Yeah. I like to brain dump. And I think it's really scary to write a book, or to even conceive of writing a book. So I like to start with brain dumping. And that is get a journal or get several journals and just or, you know, your laptop, and just brain dump on a topic. Don't think of structure, don't think of order, and spend a few months brain dumping on topics. Like I have about a thousand notes that were just brain dumps that turned into a book. And then, so brain dumping is one great way if you're really interested in writing a book. And then, this is a big leap after that, find an agent. Because I, you know, it is really a business. And you can't write a book and then think it's gonna just get published, you need a team. So I guess get an agent also can be broadened to start thinking of the structure of the team. So you need an agent, you need a publisher, you need a best friend who might wanna read some of your pages. I have a few friends of mine that read my brain dumps, And they go, Oh, that's a good point. Build on that. Or that's the book, forget everything else. That brain dump right there is the book. So I'd say brain dump first, and then start to build your team with agents and possible agents and possible best friends who can help you edit through your your brain. Wow. Well, I might have to borrow your best friends at some point. I think I'll start sending them my emails and see what happens.

[35:28]Zibby Owens: If it ends up in books as good as this, I mean, you know. Oh my gosh. Well, I don't even want to stop talking to you because I have like a thousand other things. I didn't even read any of my quotes. I have like every other page is like dog eared in here. Oh my gosh. Give me one quote. Give me one quote. I'm gonna pick one at random. Okay. Okay. I thought this was ridiculous thinking lingerie could dissolve what I knew was sexism plain and simple. But I tried taking my mother's approach of being less combative and more grateful with Joe. Sometimes it worked and I could hold my tongue. But as the disparities in our relationship grew, it became harder for me to diffuse our fights. And often, I was adding my own fuel to the fire. Yeah. That's just like sticking my finger anywhere in this book is like a passage like that. So anyway.

[36:10]Jodie Patterson: That quote is you're the only person that's hold that one out in all the conversations that I've had, and that quote to me was so, or that moment with my mom was so important. I had been battling with my husband at the time on so many different topics, power, and children, and money, and all the stuff that we battle on. And I confided in my mom, and she said, well, what about lingerie? Because men love lingerie, and if you put some on, it will make everything better. And I was just frustrated by the fact that we have so, for so long, just not called sexism for what it is. And we're seeing that now, I mean, in the Me Too movement. And we have not called racism for what it is. And we're seeing that now in Black Lives Matter. And we haven't called so many things out for what they are. And I think as we get older and more mature, we just start to not want to lie about stuff anymore, we wanna call it for what it is. And so you noticing that, definitely on the mom's side that just no longer wants to

[37:13]Zibby Owens: keep quiet about stuff. We're on the, I've got to call it for what it is at this point. PS, my mother, when I, in my previous marriage, which I shouldn't even be talking about, but was like, put on some lipstick, put makeup on when he gets home, have a drink ready. Come on, like show him your best. And I'm like, what? Have a drink ready? What about my fricking day? Like, anyway. So I think I related to that advice from an older generation that Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's what made me pull it out. But among a zillion other things that I was like, oh, yeah.

[37:47]Jodie Patterson: That's the one. That's the one. And it's a generational divide in some ways. And, you know, my kids have pointed out ways in which my language was all wrong. And I think, as my mom did, and as I have done, we've shifted our language. I mean, my mom from that today, my mom is on board with a new approach to life. I'm on board with a new approach to life. And we've listened to our kids. She apparently listened to me a little bit, and I definitely listened to my kids when they were just like, mom, if you don't change, you're just gonna be old and weird, and no one's gonna be around you anymore.

[38:25]Zibby Owens: That's so true. Might be the best advice of this whole conversation. If you don't change, you're going to be old and weird. I feel old and weird like every day these days. So yes, that is great advice. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks for coming on Mom's Don't Time to Read Bugs. I hope we can continue this in some form one way or another. And yeah, thank you for this amazing memoir,

[38:44]Jodie Patterson: and I just loved it. I just loved it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I will come back anytime we can pick this conversation up at any moment. Perfect.

[38:53]Zibby Owens: All right. Okay. Thanks, Jody. Okay. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibby owens dot com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.