Charlotte Maya, SUSHI TUESDAYS: A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Family Resilience
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[1:03]Charlotte Maya is the author of Sushi Tuesdays, a memoir of love, loss, and family resilience.
[1:09]This is guest hosted by Julie Chavez, who is the author of the upcoming zippy book called
[1:14]Everyone But Myself and the host of Ask a Librarian, the podcast.
[1:18]This is the story that Charlotte Maya wrote called Sushi Tuesdays about being widowed
[1:23]to suicide when she was 39 and when her children were 6 and 8.
[1:28]She started the blog Sushi Tuesdays, where she shared her thoughts on life and love and
[1:32]and loss.
[1:33]Charlotte Maya, thank you so much for coming on moms.
[1:36]Don't have time to read books to talk about your beautiful books Sushi Tuesdays.
[1:41]I'm so glad you're here today.
[1:43]Julie, I am thrilled to be here with you chatting about Sushi Tuesdays.
[1:46]Thank you so much.
[1:47]Oh, it's my pleasure.
[1:49]I finished your book and it is meaningful and important and raw and beautiful.
[1:57]And I was really moved by so many parts.
[2:00]So I'm just excited to talk with you about it and hear more about what's behind the book.
[2:06]Thank you so much.
[2:07]Oh, it's my pleasure.
[2:08]Okay, so because I'm terrible at summarizing things, I'm going to have you start for us.
[2:13]If you wouldn't mind, just give the listeners just a sense of what is your book about?
[2:18]Yeah, Sushi Tuesdays, it starts with my husband's suicide and we had no idea that Sam
[2:25]was suffering so much.
[2:27]I was 39, the kids were 6 and 8, Sam was 41.
[2:32]And really that's where it starts and the propelling question is how am I going to get
[2:40]through this?
[2:41]How am I going to move forward?
[2:42]How am I going to help my children heal and what happened?
[2:46]So those are sort of the compelling questions that I lived and then wrote.
[2:55]Yeah.
[2:56]So did this start with your blog?
[2:58]I know that Sushi Tuesdays refers to the day of the week that you set aside for yourself
[3:04]during that time where you allowed yourself to do whatever you wanted.
[3:07]And it sounded like it started with yoga and therapy.
[3:09]Those were kind of the two underpinnings.
[3:12]And then slowly that developed into this day of true self-care.
[3:17]So did you when did you start the blog because I know that's kind of the beginnings of
[3:21]the book, correct?
[3:22]Yeah.
[3:23]So back up just a little bit, yes, the title Sushi Tuesdays comes from Tuesday became
[3:28]my self-care day.
[3:30]I called it my Charlotte Shabbat.
[3:31]I had a favorite yoga class on Tuesdays and then my therapist had a recurring slot open
[3:37]up on Tuesdays.
[3:38]So Tuesdays became my day just to take care of myself because as a single mom with two
[3:43]young kids, I knew that I had to take care of myself in order to keep this train on the
[3:52]tracks.
[3:53]And as a practical matter, you know, it was only the time the kids were in school.
[3:56]They were in first and third grades.
[3:58]So from maybe nine to maybe two.
[4:00]But if you're a single mom and you have five hours to devote to yourself, that's a lot
[4:04]of time.
[4:05]Yes.
[4:06]And so I guarded that time very carefully.
[4:10]That's why I called it it was sacred time.
[4:12]That's why I called it my Charlotte Shabbat.
[4:14]And I was really afraid that well, also tobacco when the policeman came to tell me
[4:21]that Sam had died, they told me, we will tell the children that their father died.
[4:25]But you have to tell them how.
[4:27]And we recommend that you tell them the truth because you do not want them to find out
[4:31]from somebody else.
[4:32]And at a time when nothing made sense, that actually made sense to me.
[4:37]And it is one of the hardest things I've ever done, but also my children who are now
[4:44]22 and 24, the six and eight year old are now 22 and 24 know that they can trust me
[4:51]for honest answers to really hard questions.
[4:56]And that advice to be honest and transparent was just so helpful in guiding my path forward.
[5:03]But I was afraid that when I was honest and transparent outside of our little home that
[5:08]I would be ostracized because of how Sam died.
[5:12]Yeah.
[5:13]But I found was the opposite.
[5:14]What I found was connection.
[5:16]What I found was people wanted to talk about suicide, Sam in particular, suicides, the
[5:23]temp leading cause of death in this country.
[5:25]And we don't talk about it.
[5:26]It's the second leading cause of death for two age groups, 25 to 34 and 10 to 14.
[5:35]And the thing we know that helps is talking about it.
[5:37]So people kept telling me you have to write the book, you have to write the book.
[5:41]And that sounded really overwhelming.
[5:44]I had never written a book, but I was on a run one day and I thought, well, maybe I
[5:48]can write a blog because a blog is about a thousand words and the book is about a hundred
[5:53]thousand words.
[5:54]So maybe I'll just start with a blog.
[5:56]So that is where I started about four years after Sam had died.
[6:01]I started my blog Sushi Tuesdays.
[6:04]Not realizing, by the way, in URL form, there is one of what we call Uncle Jose's colorful
[6:10]words right in the middle of Sushi Tuesdays.
[6:14]Once you say it, you can't unsee it.
[6:17]No, I will only see that from here on out.
[6:20]And it's poetic, right?
[6:22]Because it was dealing with a mess of grief, the mess of mothering and child rearing and
[6:28]widowing and finding a path forward.
[6:31]So it was dealing with, you know, the raw real mess.
[6:34]Absolutely.
[6:35]It really was a shit sandwich.
[6:37]Yeah.
[6:38]I didn't know if I could say that out loud.
[6:39]Oh, I'm sorry.
[6:40]I did.
[6:41]No.
[6:42]Sorry.
[6:43]Well, it's nursing.
[6:44]First, I can say it too.
[6:45]No, but it's so true.
[6:48]I mean, there's no, I think one of the things you do so well in this book, first of all,
[6:52]sorry, let me back up.
[6:54]I'm sorry that you lost Sam.
[6:56]I'm sorry that he's gone and that you and your boys had to go through that.
[7:00]I read the first chapter and I have two sons who are also two years apart.
[7:06]I have been married for over 20 years and reading, there was a line you wrote about
[7:13]knowing you said after 17 years, I knew what he was thinking.
[7:16]And I have a very similar line that I wrote about myself and my husband.
[7:21]And I just, I was so moved by your bravery and your openness in it.
[7:29]So thank you for writing about it, but I'm sorry that you had to live it.
[7:35]Do you tell us a little bit about Sam?
[7:37]Oh my gosh.
[7:39]Thank you so much for asking Sam was funny.
[7:42]He was a huge Dodger fan.
[7:45]Well, actually, I should say he was a huge baseball fan.
[7:47]The angels were actually his team, but we live closer to Dodger Stadium.
[7:52]And we would always joke there was never a question on the Dodger Jumbo Tron, one of
[7:58]those two questions.
[7:59]Or is he ever one that he couldn't answer?
[8:01]Like he was just this encyclopedia of baseball knowledge and baseball season, they're always
[8:09]times we think of Sam.
[8:11]Baseball season is definitely one of them.
[8:15]And baseball was just a passion for him.
[8:18]He loved it.
[8:19]I think he probably should have found something baseball related instead of going to law
[8:25]school and other important, but maybe that's passionate pursuits.
[8:32]He was funny, but he never laughed out loud.
[8:34]He hardly ever laughed out loud.
[8:36]But I knew if I could make him laughed out loud, I felt really good about that because
[8:40]that was like, that was a good day if I could make Sam laugh out loud.
[8:43]He always would say, I'm smiling on the inside like, well, can you can you give me a
[8:47]little?
[8:48]It's not home because it's not home because yeah, throw me a bone here.
[8:51]Come on.
[8:52]I'm trying really hard.
[8:53]That was funny.
[8:55]Did he have a dry sense of humor?
[8:57]He did.
[8:58]Sam would be like one of those people in the back of the classroom cracking up with
[9:02]one other person and you wanted to be in that conversation with him.
[9:07]Like you wanted to be the person who was sitting in the back of the classroom with Sam
[9:10]because you knew whatever he said was really funny, probably a reverend, very clever,
[9:17]but he was just very sort of quiet in that way.
[9:21]I love hearing about who he was.
[9:23]I think that's one of the tough parts about suicide as we talk too much about or not
[9:28]too much, but it's just the topic becomes how they died and that becomes they are more
[9:36]than their death or how we lost them.
[9:40]And especially, I think we're starting to know that a little bit more now, but especially
[9:44]in the time that he died and before that there wasn't, we didn't talk about suicide
[9:48]and it's still not even close to enough.
[9:51]So did you find after he died that that was the case that people only wanted to talk about
[9:59]the suicide?
[10:00]and maybe whether you knew and did they want to dissect it with you?
[10:05]Yes, there's all of that. I do agree that the stigma and shame surrounding suicide
[10:12]threatened to reduce our loved ones' life to their very last moments, and that's part
[10:17]of why I'm so grateful for these conversations where we can open up their whole life.
[10:23]And I do think that's sort of particular to suicide and it's so confusing.
[10:31]We want to know why we want to protect ourselves. We wish we could have protect our loved one.
[10:36]And so there is a lot of conversation about the why and how could this have happened?
[10:44]How could I have missed the signs and were there signs? All of those questions are really
[10:52]very poignant. So yes, and also with Sam's friends and people who knew him and the cousins,
[11:02]those are sort of the first early places where we could open up the whole conversation to the
[11:08]whole of Sam and include his life, his quirks to make fun of him. Right, so that feels
[11:15]a little bit taboo. But that is sort of that teasing nature is what we do with people who we
[11:22]love and we have a lot of affection for. And we might laugh about their quirks, but we love them
[11:27]for those quirks. And it's part of who they are and part of our whole relationship and what
[11:32]we remember. Yeah, that makes complete sense. And perhaps also especially in Sam's case,
[11:39]I would imagine that more public side of his death than brought in people who weren't safe
[11:46]for those kinds of moments in conversation. So you were sort of dealing with it on two fronts
[11:50]and obviously with your boys as well. Yeah, you know, I was surprised though how many people
[11:56]were safe. And I think part of it came from my willingness to have these conversations and my
[12:04]vulnerability in that space. A lot of people have lost loved ones to suicide and they haven't had a
[12:11]space to talk about it. So when I was talking about Sam, I would hear about somebody else's brother
[12:18]or somebody's aunt or somebody's mother or somebody's child. And being open to those conversations,
[12:28]it's horrifying how many people die by suicide. I think the number is something like one every
[12:35]11 minutes in this country alone, which is devastating. It is. And we might not be able to stop
[12:44]all the suicides, but we can do a lot better than we're doing right now for sure. And so having
[12:50]these conversations and being safe places and understanding that if someone that you know and love
[12:57]seems off or seems like they're suffering, it's okay to ask, are you thinking of hurting yourself?
[13:04]Are you thinking about suicide? Do you have a plan? You're not going to put that idea in their head?
[13:10]Yes. But if you ask it out loud, now they know that you are open to listening. And then you can
[13:18]guide them to a professional. We don't have to be the professionals. But in the same way we are
[13:23]fluent in physical health, we can be do better in mental health. And the language we use matters.
[13:29]So we we don't normally use the term commit suicide because that word commit has criminal
[13:34]connotations. Yes. And suicide is not a crime. It's an illness. And when we understand that,
[13:41]then it's easier to have those conversations. And we say instead of saying commit suicide,
[13:47]we say died by suicide or even suicide as a verb, which does sound a little awkward, but
[13:53]we've done harder things than we can figure that out. Oh, totally. We're on it. I love that you
[14:00]make that distinction and that you're pointing that out because language always lags. So it's like
[14:05]we're always kind of catching up to where we should be. And you're right, using those terms is
[14:09]important because depression and anxiety and all of these and suicidal ideation, there's such
[14:16]monsters. And we don't understand them. So I think seeing it with a different lens is healthy for
[14:24]the people who are still here and also for honoring the people that we've lost.
[14:29]That's right. Yeah. That's right. We used to say the C word for cancer and people would whisper
[14:33]about it and not talk about it out loud. And when you say the word out loud, it takes away some
[14:38]of that stigma and shame. And then we can also devote resources and research and invest in saving
[14:46]lives. Yes, Mr. Rogers. I'm a big Mr. Rogers fan. He was what's mentionable is manhoodable.
[14:53]And that I always comes to me because I think the same thing if we can talk about it, then
[14:58]and to your point, also one of the biggest lies. And I read some of this in the book or the lie
[15:04]that a person who's experiencing suicidal ideation, their mind is telling them a lie that
[15:10]they're not important, that no one cares that their death might be an improvement,
[15:13]all these other pieces. And so for someone to ask about that and open up a window for them to
[15:19]actually speak about it, then it feels, oh, this is a person that's checking in with me. So it
[15:25]helps to combat that loneliness because that's the worst part. The isolation must be just
[15:32]horrific. Yeah. About a year after Sam died, his cousin Carol died from breast cancer. She's 33 years
[15:41]old. And at the funeral, one of the cousins said Carol was fighting for her life and Sam threw
[15:47]his away. And it made me so angry because Carol had doctors and chemo and therapist. She had women
[15:54]showing up at her doorstep with casserole and people offering to watch the baby and drive carpool
[16:00]and Sam was fighting just as hard, but he was fighting alone. And that's what we can really
[16:06]combat. We don't have to fight alone. We can we can address the isolation. Yes. Is that part
[16:14]of what writing means to you? Oh, that's a great question. And the answer I think has to be yes.
[16:20]Yeah. Writing to feel, because I feel like that in your writing, when I read it, I feel
[16:25]us alone. And I feel that it is that connection that we can have. Yes, it is that connection and
[16:30]what resonates with each other. Because at some level, loss is universal. It resonates in a certain
[16:37]key. And we've all experienced different losses. It's not better or worse. It just stinks and
[16:43]it's own unique way. And to be able to relate to each other in this way can be very healing.
[16:51]Yeah. We're not great at holding each other's pain. So having spaces for that, it feels like
[16:58]and writing can really be one of those because of the maybe the lack of face pressure. Sometimes I
[17:05]can read those words and feel that, but not necessarily because for some people conversations are
[17:09]really tough, only. And these are tough conversations. And so writing about it, reading about it
[17:17]is also a way to open up a safe space. When you were talking about people showing up for a
[17:26]person who has cancer, I know one thing that really stood out to me in the book when you talked
[17:31]about engineer Jane. You talked about all the Jane. So all the people that just showed up and did
[17:37]stuff and were there in all these ways for you. But engineer Jane offered to be at your house at
[17:44]745 every morning to walk your kids to school. And I thought that was so beautiful. And you made
[17:51]a point about that. Why did you choose to include that? I had so many people just kind of embraced
[17:58]me and the kids. And so I was very lucky in that way. And one of the things that I learned being
[18:04]a widow because it is hard to accept help from other people. We're not acculturated to do this.
[18:12]But I was just at such a loss that when people asked me if they could help me, I just said,
[18:19]yes, yes, I need the help. I don't even know what I need because I need all of it. And one of the
[18:25]things I learned was that everybody has a gift. And it might be surprising. And when people say,
[18:32]what can I do to help? They might have something that they don't even realize is a gift to somebody
[18:39]else. Maybe it's choosing a soundtrack, you know, making a Spotify playlist. Maybe it's cooking or
[18:45]baking because definitely we need to eat and that's children need to eat. And that's important.
[18:50]Maybe it's driving carpool. But engineer Jane, so I called all these people the
[18:54]James because there were so many of them. And it amused me as a lawyer. I sometimes like that
[19:02]Jane Doe one, two, three. And so that's where sort of I and I had a lot of friends whose name started
[19:07]with Jay, Janey, Jeannie, Jeannie, there were just a lot of Jay names. And so I consolidated them and
[19:17]really highlighted what the gift was. Yeah. And so engineer Jane said to me, Charlotte,
[19:25]I can't cook and I have no social skills. She says, but I have noticed that you and the kids
[19:32]are always late to school. And so she said, I would, I would be happy to come to your house at 745
[19:40]with her two kids, by the way. And, you know, she was like our little morning drill sergeant,
[19:47]she'd walk in, I mean, in B744 and one of the three of us was in jammies for sure. Somebody's
[19:54]teeth weren't brushed, maybe none of the teeth were brushed. I'd be like, okay, engineer Jane is
[19:58]going to be here in 60 seconds.
[20:00]And we all knew she was gonna be there exactly at 745.
[20:03]And so we all got into gear,
[20:05]backpacks, lunches, socks, shoes, homework.
[20:08]And it was an incredible gift.
[20:11]She did that for months.
[20:12]Do you know anybody who can be anywhere
[20:15]with their two kids five days a week at 745 promptly?
[20:20]No, only one person could do that and she did.
[20:24]And I didn't need 12 engineers on my doorstep at 745,
[20:27]I just needed the one.
[20:29]And so I love one of the things I just loved
[20:31]about engineer Jane to me is that she epitomizes
[20:34]that each one of us has a gift.
[20:37]And it might not look like everybody else's gift.
[20:39]And that is what's beautiful about it.
[20:41]Mm-hmm.
[20:42]And even more valuable in some ways,
[20:44]because if everyone's cooking,
[20:46]then no one is getting you out the door at 745.
[20:49]Yes, that's right.
[20:51]They're there.
[20:52]Listen, there's enough for everybody to help me with.
[20:54]It's, yes, everyone my need is great.
[20:57]So please feel free to pitch it.
[20:59]Please show up and then do your magic.
[21:02]That's right.
[21:03]But I do love too that, you know, you were open to it.
[21:07]But also, I wonder if there's a reminder there
[21:10]for all of us to maybe try and be more specific
[21:14]when we are offering help.
[21:16]Do you think that's something that's helpful for people?
[21:18]Yes, absolutely.
[21:19]When people ask me, what can I do to help?
[21:22]I would say I have no idea.
[21:24]Right.
[21:24]And they said, could I collect your mail, pull out the bills,
[21:30]write the checks.
[21:30]This was 2007.
[21:31]So we said road checks.
[21:32]Yes.
[21:33]Write the checks, put the stamp on the envelope.
[21:36]You know, there were lots of pieces to this whole thing.
[21:37]Yeah.
[21:38]I'll just clip the everything together
[21:40]so that you can sign the checks, put the check inside
[21:43]the envelope and take it to the mail.
[21:44]Then I said, yes, absolutely 100%.
[21:47]I need that.
[21:48]Yes.
[21:49]If somebody said, could I, I don't know, fill in the blank.
[21:52]Could I walk the dog?
[21:54]Could I drive carpool?
[21:56]If they had very specific ideas, I had one night,
[22:00]I was telling somebody a story about Jason having,
[22:04]Jason's my youngest, having shredded his favorite blanket
[22:07]into strips, he just shredded it in a fit of rage
[22:10]and confusion, he shredded it into strips.
[22:14]And I let him because he wasn't hurting himself
[22:18]or anyone else.
[22:20]And it was an expression of his grief and rage
[22:23]and that felt important.
[22:25]And then after it was in tatters, he looked at me,
[22:28]he said, mommy, you have to fix it.
[22:31]And he was inconsolable because now he had shredded
[22:35]his transitional love object and he couldn't go to sleep.
[22:38]And so I was telling a friend this story about, you know,
[22:42]how I had failed again as a mother,
[22:44]because I just felt like there was no way to win, right?
[22:46]I don't let him shred it and he still has his rage.
[22:50]Or I let him shred it and now he doesn't have his blanket.
[22:52]So she said, she's a seamstress
[22:55]and I didn't really know that about her.
[22:57]And she said, can you gather up all the pieces
[22:59]and I will do my best to put it back together?
[23:02]So this is an incredible moment for me
[23:06]when she is able to do that.
[23:08]And I think I would encourage people also, you know,
[23:12]healing is ongoing.
[23:13]You might not know what your friend needs
[23:16]in the first week or even month,
[23:20]but healing doesn't have an expiration date.
[23:24]Grief doesn't have a date certain on which you are done.
[23:28]And so just stay in there because you might notice
[23:32]after a month that somebody needs a blanket repaired
[23:35]and you might be just the person to do that.
[23:39]I love that image.
[23:41]What a beautiful and hard story, right?
[23:45]Cause that's so much of what you share in the book
[23:47]is just trying to mother your kids well through it
[23:51]and care for yourself.
[23:52]It's just so much.
[23:53]Oh, yes, people's gifts and you're exactly right.
[23:55]People don't realize sometimes what they can offer.
[23:58]So it's a good thing to think about.
[24:00]I know that I am terrible with the meal trains.
[24:03]It's garbage for me.
[24:04]I have to think of something else.
[24:05]Not your gift, but maybe your gift is finding the right book
[24:08]for somebody at the right time.
[24:10]And they might not have the attention span to read
[24:13]in those first three, six months or years.
[24:17]But maybe after nine months,
[24:19]when they say something about having picked up a book,
[24:22]again, you go, oh, I have just the perfect book for you.
[24:26]And I can't speak for you,
[24:29]but I imagine that everyone listening to this podcast
[24:32]might go, oh, I love to get the perfect book.
[24:35]Yes, yes, you're exactly right.
[24:37]You have me pegged, there's nothing I like more
[24:39]than giving someone the perfect book.
[24:41]Oh, it's the best.
[24:42]It really is.
[24:43]And you're right, there is kind of an honoring there.
[24:45]And like we were talking about earlier with,
[24:48]you can be a person who helps close or a little remove too.
[24:51]And those are both valuable too
[24:53]because I think sometimes it can feel claustrophobic.
[24:55]I know you spoke about that in the book as well.
[24:58]We're at a certain point.
[24:59]You need some normalcy and so it's just that back and forth.
[25:03]Yeah, and at the beginning it could be overwhelming,
[25:06]but then very quickly it gets very lonely.
[25:09]Yeah.
[25:09]And so those friends who could keep showing up,
[25:12]and again, I don't need 100 people showing up every day,
[25:16]but those friends who keep showing up
[25:19]in their own unique ways is very special.
[25:23]We joke, we don't hide the skeletons and the closets around here.
[25:26]We put their pictures up on the piano and on the mantle
[25:30]because love remembers and then it's not so heavy.
[25:33]And we get to have these conversations about our beloveds.
[25:38]Yes, people who made our lives what they are.
[25:41]That's right.
[25:42]Yeah.
[25:43]But they're always moments.
[25:44]Jason is set to graduate from college next month, this month.
[25:48]It's May.
[25:49]Oh, my gosh, it's May.
[25:50]I know.
[25:51]And it's astonishing that Sam isn't going to be there.
[25:55]And so there are always these moments
[25:57]that sort of take our breath away,
[26:00]but we get better at it.
[26:05]I love that you share so honestly about grief
[26:07]because it is such a messy thing and grieving is,
[26:11]it's a forever.
[26:13]You don't stop missing those people.
[26:15]So yeah.
[26:17]But that's the beauty, right?
[26:18]Love and grief are flip sides of the same coin.
[26:22]And so love gets to remember.
[26:25]Yes.
[26:26]Oh, that's such a beautiful note.
[26:28]What's your, just for us to finish?
[26:30]What's your greatest hope for this book?
[26:33]My hope has always been that sushi Tuesdays
[26:36]will find the readers who will love it
[26:40]and the readers who need that self-care in that light
[26:45]and that hope and that real honesty
[26:47]will find sushi Tuesdays.
[26:49]I know you're a librarian and one of my favorite gigs
[26:53]was volunteering in the kids' library
[26:55]and I remember standing there one day.
[26:56]And I love to read and there are all these books
[26:59]and I'm looking around thinking as much as I love to read
[27:02]even in my school library, which is pretty robust.
[27:05]Yeah, there's no way I could read all the books there.
[27:08]And it's sort of a small but incredible miracle
[27:11]when readers and books find each other.
[27:14]So that is my hope for sushi Tuesdays.
[27:17]Well, I think you've done a tremendous job
[27:19]and I think I know it found me
[27:22]and I'm very grateful that it did
[27:23]and I am wishing it all the luck.
[27:26]Thank you so much, Julie.
[27:27]What a joy it is to speak with you.
[27:29]Same, thanks, friend.
[27:32]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:34]Don't have time to read books.
[27:35]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[27:37]at Zebioans and at Moms.
[27:39]Don't have time to read books.
[27:40]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[27:43]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:45]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:47]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[27:50]for the Sound Editing.
[27:51]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:53]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.
[27:56]Thank you.