Beth Ann Mathews, DEEP WATERS: A Memoir of Loss, Alaska Adventure, and Love Rekindled
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[1:03]Beth Ann Matthews is the author of Deep Waters, a memoir of loss, Alaska adventure, and
[1:08]love rekindled.
[1:09]Beth Matthews is a marine biologist and a mother of one son.
[1:12]She grew up in a large family in the Midwest and earned a degree in animal science at Purdue
[1:16]University.
[1:17]After three years as a zookeeper in the bird department at the Tulsa Zoo, she was granted
[1:22]a leave of absence to volunteer with a team of biologists on an ambitious study of breeding
[1:26]humpback whales in Hawaii.
[1:28]That experience inspired her to pursue a master's degree in marine biology at the University
[1:32]of California Santa Cruz as a professor at the University of Alaska Southeast, Beth taught
[1:37]courses in biology, behavioral ecology, marine mammology, and lead research on harbor seals,
[1:43]stellar sea lions, and harbor porpoises with her students, mainly in Glacier Bay National Park.
[1:48]She has also studied humpback, gray, and sperm whales, and briefly sleeper sharks, and
[1:52]lead undergraduate research programs on board tall ships in the Gulf of Maine and from
[1:57]field camps in Hawaii and Alaska.
[1:59]After 20 years in Alaska, Beth and her husband sold their home to begin an expedition
[2:03]with their young son on the family's 42-foot sailboat from Alaska to Mexico's Sea of
[2:07]Cortez.
[2:08]Feedback from her blog during the three-year journey inspired her to write stories about
[2:12]their sailing adventures, as well as deep waters, and memoir about her family struggle
[2:16]to survive, and move beyond her husband's unusual stroke in 2008.
[2:20]She published numerous scientific papers and a chapter from deep waters placed second
[2:25]in the 2018 Redwood Writers memoir contest.
[2:28]Deep writers is her first book.
[2:30]She lives with her husband and their boat-loving, shipwrecky, on an island in Washington.
[2:35]Welcome, Beth.
[2:36]Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read books to discuss deep
[2:39]waters, a memoir of loss, Alaska adventure, and love rekindled.
[2:44]The pleasure is mine, Zibi.
[2:45]It's great to be here.
[2:47]Thank you.
[2:48]Can you please tell us, and there's about your book.
[2:50]Everything about your book.
[2:51]Yes, everything.
[2:52]Well, I'm a marine biologist.
[2:53]I grew up in Indiana, and I ended up in Alaska, where I had a career for 20 years
[3:00]working at the University in teaching, and my husband was a field scientist there,
[3:06]and when our son was nine, so we were both working at our careers.
[3:12]Life was good, and one morning my husband, my very healthy husband, the kind of guy
[3:18]who actually rode his bike to work in the winter, in Alaska, was studded tires and special
[3:26]booties to keep the snow from shoving up his calves.
[3:29]It was that winter before he came and brought me coffee that morning, and then the next thing
[3:34]I knew he was coughing and choking, and he had been slammed by a very rare type of stroke
[3:41]that was actually triggered by scraping and painting our skylight.
[3:45]So that incident is the inciting incident on my book, and the book is really how we navigated
[3:53]the next year as a couple and a family, and we did clash on how his recovery would proceed.
[4:01]He was very, very determined to walk again.
[4:05]He was not able to walk after the stroke, and swallowing without choking was difficult.
[4:11]He had trouble reading, had nice, stagmas, whereas eyes jitter to side to side, and my reaction
[4:17]was to be very protective of him and keep him safe at home, but we were sailors.
[4:22]We are sailors.
[4:23]We had a boat, and we still have that same boat that we, my husband, I lived on it for
[4:29]seven years before our son was born, and he really wanted to get out and go sailing
[4:34]in Alaska's inside passage, which has some risk involved in it.
[4:40]And we did eventually do that.
[4:42]So the book really is the story of that first year of how we worked through our conflict
[4:48]of me wanting to hold him back, but him really needing to get out and do these adventurous
[4:54]things that he always loved to push his body and himself to recover.
[4:59]And ultimately, it's a, I think it's a very uplifting story in that the stroke pushed
[5:05]me to reevaluate my priorities and make a decision to live a less secure, but more adventurous
[5:11]connected life at the end.
[5:13]Yeah.
[5:14]It's funny when you were talking about his desire to get out there and be adventurous, and
[5:19]your knee jerk instinct to keep him close and safe, I was like, it sounds so much like how
[5:23]I am with my children.
[5:24]Oh, yeah.
[5:25]No, you're exactly it is actually the first day I had to leave him in my husband home
[5:32]alone.
[5:33]You know, he's just a super competent guy.
[5:35]I mean, I, but he also was a little bullheaded about insisting on not we were sent home.
[5:42]He was sent home with a walker and a wheelchair.
[5:46]And I was told that he would need those for a couple of several weeks.
[5:49]And he absolutely refused to use them and we lived on it.
[5:53]Our main home was on the second floor.
[5:56]So I knew he'd have to go off or he would be inclined to go up and down the stairs.
[5:59]And we, our first clash after we got home, we, you know, we are very solid couple.
[6:05]We love each other so much and we're good friends, but I just couldn't help it.
[6:10]I was fearful.
[6:12]I had to go to work.
[6:13]I had this image embedded in my head of him falling down the stairs because he had almost
[6:19]fallen during one of the rehab training sessions or, you know, sort of an accident caught
[6:24]me the air sort of, but, um, so yeah, I had to figure out how to dial back that
[6:29]protective nerve nature, just like we do with our young children as they're growing.
[6:34]We have to sort of, we have to let them make mistakes, let them fall down and get hurt.
[6:37]So they, so they can pick themselves up, um, but yeah, there was definitely tension around
[6:42]that night.
[6:43]Yeah.
[6:44]My daughter yesterday was, it was like, you know, can you kind of an apple up for me?
[6:48]And I was busy like with the camp forums or something.
[6:50]And she's like, actually, you know, I, you taught me how to do this the other day.
[6:53]I can do this.
[6:54]And I was like, oh, wait, just hold on.
[6:57]And I'll do it.
[6:58]And then I was singing myself, okay, she was like in a cut off her finger.
[7:01]And then I was like, but if I don't let her ever cut an apple, how was she ever not
[7:05]going to cut off her finger?
[7:07]Anyway, I ended up like stopping and I was doing and like win around her with my hands,
[7:11]like hovering so that like if it were to slip, I could pull her away.
[7:16]And she did it fine.
[7:17]You know, and now I'm like, well, maybe next time I'll slowly, you know, not that this
[7:20]is analogous.
[7:21]I know your husband would do.
[7:22]And as you detailed so well in the book, I feel like I was there with you every
[7:26]step of the way of that like horrific first day in the medevac and the whole thing.
[7:31]But anyway, it's that sense of like, you know, could I control it?
[7:35]I probably couldn't if she could have cut her finger off, even if I was an inch away if
[7:38]it was going to happen.
[7:39]But anyway, there you are.
[7:41]Yeah.
[7:42]Yeah.
[7:43]And I know you wrote about your son in the book a lot too and how it was so important to
[7:48]you to keep him close to you during that first day and getting him a spot on the plane.
[7:54]I was like rooting for him so much and I'm like, how could you know, what is she going
[7:58]to do if she's to leave her son?
[7:59]And you know, I don't usually read the back of the books before I start reading them.
[8:04]Like ages ago, I read what it's about and then I kind of forget and put them in the
[8:08]Yes pile so that I'm always surprised by what happens.
[8:11]So I have to say, I was like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen?
[8:14]Like is he having a stroke?
[8:15]Is this going to be nothing?
[8:16]Is this the worst thing ever?
[8:18]Is he going to make like it was so terrifying as a reader not knowing the outcome.
[8:22]So the way you did all that sort of, you know, stress and suspense really almost in
[8:28]the way you told the story was was really powerful.
[8:31]Well, thank you.
[8:32]Thank you.
[8:33]I mean, I assume that you were okay with that.
[8:35]Of course I'm okay with that.
[8:36]It was, no, no, I'm of course, I'm just like, even little details and I was wondering
[8:42]how you remember all this and if you took notes at the time of like who said what do
[8:46]you when and which colleague and who came in the room and like all that stuff, how
[8:52]you remember any of it because sometimes with trauma you just forget like the whole thing.
[8:57]I realized that so I have on and off throughout my life kept journals.
[9:01]I'm not like a journal writer with a capital J where I would put them on the library shelf.
[9:06]They're kind of in an assortment of notebooks and so on.
[9:10]And probably I'm sure my training as a field biologist, I kept field notes as things were
[9:16]happening.
[9:17]Right.
[9:18]Right away, even in that meta back jet, I started writing things down, you know, about
[9:24]what was happening.
[9:25]What I was hearing from the doctors and also blubbing right into it, my emotions.
[9:32]There was no separation between that sort of the scientists side and the, oh my gosh, this
[9:37]is my husband, very emotional, alarmed side.
[9:42]And the notebook from, actually at first I didn't have a notebook, but the first day
[9:48]I bought one and as I grew upon that so much and one of the things I noticed, I don't
[9:53]know if other people are like this, but if I have a good pen and nice paper, my handwriting
[9:58]is actually quite good, because I grew up.
[10:00]in that era, but my handwriting can change with urgency or the mood and I can see on the pages
[10:08]and almost feel in some cases the sense of fear and alarm coming through my handwriting,
[10:15]but as even when the doctors would come by, I would take notes then,
[10:20]but those scrawled notes not only the exact words I might use, but the way I wrote
[10:29]and maybe how the page had a stain of coffee on it, all those little organic clues I think
[10:37]helped me open what I think of when I'm writing memoir. I've come to think of it as if I
[10:43]approach a scene that I haven't drafted yet. I think there's like a trapdoor or lid that I have to
[10:49]open and the first time I try to get at it, it's like I don't want to do it, it's going to be too
[10:54]hard. I open that first trapdoor and then the writing for that first draft takes me down to
[11:02]the next trapdoor and it opens and before I know what I am like back in the place, smelling,
[11:10]feeling, feeling it. So some of that is, those journals helped I did, I Virginia Mason Hospital
[11:19]years later was very good about releasing, of course, of my husband's permission,
[11:23]all of his medical records, I got all of them. Oh wow. Yeah, it was remarkable. So where I had
[11:29]something in my notes about something happening, I could corroborate it and get the medical
[11:36]detail, not that I'm not a doctor, I'm not trying to write a book as if I am, but I wanted
[11:42]of course to have as much accurate about how his situation unfolded and the ups and downs
[11:48]of it. And then another memory prompt I use, I didn't have much in that case, but
[11:54]well when I write about our sailing, we have a log book for the boat. It's a pre-printed one,
[12:00]it's wonderful that you're supposed to record when you leave and enter a harbor, but I would just
[12:06]I wrote my hand in those and so I could go back to those to tell some of our, the book does have
[12:13]adventure in it, outdoor adventure, it's not all in a hospital. Yep, I know. Yeah, yeah, so those
[12:19]and then I think other writers probably do this too, but referencing photos to me can open
[12:25]gates to memory. Wow, that's awesome. Um, I know the outdoor adventure and the fact that you're
[12:33]in Juneau, Alaska to start and even how to deal with the medical care there and life afterwards,
[12:41]I worked with a woman, Lee Newman, who's wrote a book that takes place in Alaska and she's from
[12:45]Alaska. I have a bookseller friend who I email with this in Alaska. I don't know, I've had this
[12:50]new, oh, the great alone, of course, like Christina. Oh, yes, I love that. Yeah. And so I feel like
[12:55]I don't know. I've been on, oh, an even mother trucker, which is another memoir that took place in Alaska.
[13:01]So I don't know. I feel like I've been on a literary Alaska kick and it's so interesting because
[13:07]I feel like Alaska is it's a character already. Like you know that that's a character in the book.
[13:11]Absolutely. Yeah, it's a character that I think a lot of us fall in love with and yet it's a
[13:17]character that can be unforgiving to, but I, you know, Alaska holds a place in my heart. We don't
[13:23]live there now, but I, and I find myself missing it and we are planning to go back next summer
[13:29]for part of the summer. Yeah. Yeah. What drew you there to begin with?
[13:34]Well, my husband, we were a new couple and he got offered a job to lead the research division
[13:41]at Glacier Bay National Park. And we were really kind of in our early stages of being a couple and
[13:48]I can remember when he got that phone call and the job offer. And he hung up the phone. I knew it's
[13:52]something really important and it kind of rubbed his jaw and thought for a moment. And I knew it was
[13:57]important. I said, do you want me to leave? You know, and then he said, no, and he turned me, he said,
[14:03]what do you think about moving to Alaska with me? And I had done some research up there,
[14:07]but I grew up in Indiana. I had never thought about living there. I love that I've been there,
[14:13]you know, for a whole summer, camping and so on. But I just jumped up and said, yes,
[14:18]and yeah, and then that started our life there. And I got a job at the University teaching and
[14:25]doing research, actually doing research in Glacier Bay on harbor seals and sea lions and taking
[14:31]my students up into this Tidewater glacial fjord at the head of Glacier Bay, where at that time,
[14:39]there were three or 4,000 harbor seals that bred and rested on, are they they used the floating
[14:48]glacial ice as they're resting areas rather than land. So it's a real different dynamic habitat
[14:55]where they're moving past us. And I loved it up there. And I loved working with my students.
[15:01]I had just fantastic students. And that's how we ended up in Alaska for 20 years. Oh my gosh,
[15:07]amazing. Do you ever just feel worried that like something else is going to happen?
[15:15]Like this all came out of the blue, right? I was going to find or have you gotten to a place where
[15:20]you're like, okay, that was a flute. Like how do you process all this now? That's a good question.
[15:25]I mean, so earlier on, well, even when my husband was released from the hospital,
[15:34]what they told him was that the kind of stroke he had was it was not caused by clogged arteries.
[15:42]He had, they did more MRIs on him than anyone I know. And his blood vessels were clear. And
[15:49]they described it as an unusual accident, very unlikely to happen again. And basically his
[15:56]vertebral artery, that's the artery that goes, you know, into your brain through the back of your
[16:01]skull. And it makes an S curve before it goes into your head. And the scraping and painting of the
[16:08]skylight, he had bent his neck a lot. And the most common cause of that kind of stroke is painting
[16:15]ceilings and plumbers get them. And I think it's rare enough that they're probably like a lot of
[16:21]things. There might be secondary factors, but they don't know what they are yet. But he left the
[16:25]hospital. He was told there was a very, he was unlikely to have another stroke. And I heard that
[16:32]intellectually. But subliminally, I did, I worried about him. And he did have some neurological
[16:39]like his balance. He had trouble right after the stroke. He leaned a few degrees to the left and
[16:47]had to unlearn that and learn how to walk. And so out on the boat, especially, I worried about him
[16:54]going overboard or, or I still did worry that if he had a stroke out there, could I get him to safety?
[17:02]So yes, I, but now I mean, I think people it's okay. It's a spoiler, but he does live. I don't,
[17:09]I think that will be evident. But he's going strong and he's on the boat right now. But he worked,
[17:15]he worked very, very hard at the rehab. And I think there was a bit of serendipity for us also timing
[17:24]serendipity in that right about the year he had his stroke. There was a big pulse of exciting
[17:31]information coming out into the popular literature on brain plasticity. And there was a book
[17:39]published called The Brain that changes itself by Norman Doig that chronicled a lot of these
[17:46]different cases where scientists and people who had a stroke were discovering that by really
[17:53]pushing the body that there was more rewiring potential than we had previously thought. And my
[17:58]husband, coincidentally, had listened to a podcast interviewing that author about five or six
[18:06]months before he had his stroke. So I think his appreciation of that and then the benefit through
[18:10]the medical community helped him put the commitment behind the hard work that stroke recovery
[18:17]victims have to do, you know, the physical therapy. It's hard stuff, you know, and you can give up
[18:24]loose hope because the progress isn't often that visible. So yeah. And why write a book about this?
[18:32]Oh, okay. Well, you know, initially I didn't set out to write a book, but I was really compelled
[18:38]to share some of the dramatic stories. And as I mentioned initially in journals and then
[18:46]I initially wanted, I was so impressed with my husband, his his fight to
[18:52]regain his physical self. I wanted to tell stories about it. And then I remember in one of my
[19:01]very first, I did eventually sign up to take a memoir writing class in California at a community
[19:06]college. And one of the first things, the instructor there, whose name is Steve Boga said, and I
[19:12]heard him say this to other students too. A lot of people come in, you're wanting to write about
[19:18]you know, their grandmother or someone else. And he said, you know, memoir, usually a memoir is
[19:22]a lot more powerful if it's your journey. And you have a journey, you know, that's worth sharing. So
[19:29]I shifted my focus a little bit. And then before I knew it, I had all these chapters, I had, you know,
[19:34]I had scenes and then chapters. And then, but I didn't say the word book out loud. I mean, it was
[19:40]like, it would be a bad omen to even and even I didn't think about it early on because it felt
[19:47]pretentious because I am trained as a biologist. I've always loved writing and I was a pretty good
[19:53]science writer, not like prolific or anything, but I knew how to write, but writing a scientific
[19:59]paper is very.
[20:00]different than writing memoir, so I had a lot to learn.
[20:02]And then I think because I started taking classes
[20:05]and I was around other writers,
[20:07]a few of whom took me under their wing
[20:10]and said, you could write a book,
[20:12]Dan O'Neill is a published author who did that early on.
[20:17]And then I had a few other mentors
[20:18]who started giving me courage.
[20:21]And eventually I said that four-letter word out loud.
[20:24]It's probably my husband first,
[20:26]but I still can't believe.
[20:28]I mean, you know what it's like
[20:30]when you feel your first book in your hands.
[20:31]It's just, and yeah, so congratulations.
[20:36]Well, thank you, thank you.
[20:37]And it's exciting.
[20:39]How does your husband and also your son,
[20:41]how do they feel about being written about?
[20:44]And was there, was there any negotiation
[20:46]involved at the outset?
[20:48]They both have been, I mean, so wonderfully supportive.
[20:54]No censorship at all.
[20:58]My husband, I have learned he,
[21:01]every now and then along the way,
[21:03]I would have him read a chapter.
[21:04]And I interviewed him a lot also.
[21:06]That was a benefit.
[21:07]I had, of course, a lot of women
[21:10]have written about their husbands who didn't survive.
[21:12]And that's a very much more difficult pathway.
[21:17]But I interviewed him.
[21:19]And then occasionally I would give him a chapter
[21:21]to read, but I did not, like,
[21:25]I didn't, for example, ask him to read
[21:26]the opening chapter for a long time.
[21:30]And one day, one evening I went to a friend's book launch
[21:35]in, this was in Kotate, California.
[21:38]And she had invited two other friends of her
[21:40]who were writers to read as well
[21:43]as she was reading from her.
[21:45]One of them bailed at the last second.
[21:48]And I was at a restaurant, we came early.
[21:51]we had, you know, a beer and dinner.
[21:53]And she said, Beth, you know,
[21:55]my friend bailed, could you read one of your scenes?
[21:58]And I said, oh, sure, and I happen to have an iPad
[22:02]with this story I'd written recently.
[22:06]And it was not, my husband was not even in it.
[22:08]It's the scene, I don't expect it to remember everything,
[22:12]but it's really, to me, it's a, well,
[22:14]it's a scene that shows my relationship with my son
[22:18]and it's, we're in the hotel room.
[22:20]It's week one, we're exhausted.
[22:23]But he gave me that, you know,
[22:24]having a child around and he was a really,
[22:27]he's a really delightful person
[22:29]and a solid friend of mine also,
[22:31]but we were, we ordered pizza
[22:34]and there's something that happened
[22:35]that was actually quite funny.
[22:37]And I had not laughed, of course,
[22:39]because we did this.
[22:40]And I still, I was just, he was making me laugh,
[22:43]which as everybody knows that release of laughter
[22:46]can be so healthy and you, it's like your body,
[22:50]it just needs it.
[22:52]But then it spills over and I'm suddenly crying.
[22:55]And I hadn't, I hadn't really cried,
[22:57]I'd held it together to kind of be his advocate.
[23:00]But that's the scene I read
[23:02]and while I was reading it in the restaurant,
[23:05]my husband suddenly stood up and walked out.
[23:08]And I was, I couldn't stop,
[23:10]I mean, I saw that happen, but I finished reading
[23:13]and I thought, you know, what's up?
[23:15]What's up?
[23:16]And found him out in the patio.
[23:19]And he said, I just, I just couldn't go back there
[23:22]and he was very upset, hands deep in his pockets.
[23:26]And I started crying and I said, I didn't mean to hurt you.
[23:29]I, you know, and he said, no, no, it was fine.
[23:34]You did a great job.
[23:35]You had that audience in your hands.
[23:37]Your writing is good.
[23:38]I just can't go there.
[23:39]So I learned that I couldn't just expect him to jump in
[23:43]and do something like that, but he has read.
[23:45]He did sit down.
[23:46]He read the whole thing through.
[23:48]He had some feedback, but none of it was,
[23:52]you know, I go into some personal stuff
[23:54]and I show each of us in not good light.
[23:57]You know, we aren't a perfect couple.
[23:58]We do have disagreements and argue
[24:01]and I think that's what makes it real.
[24:03]And he never once said, you can't write about that.
[24:07]I just feel, he's a brave man.
[24:09]And that to me, that just makes me love him more.
[24:13]Oh, so emotional.
[24:16]I'll just so, you know, you also pair all of this sadness
[24:21]with bits of humor too, even when you're talking about
[24:26]at the beginning how he was, it was before work.
[24:29]And he like adopted a certain stance,
[24:33]which you knew meant that he wanted to have sex.
[24:36]And I was like, oh my gosh, what is this stance?
[24:38]Like, what do you think they're doing?
[24:42]Well, I think I'm early on, I love some of that out.
[24:45]But, you know, it was so important to our story,
[24:49]but I do think people who've been together
[24:52]and we know each other's signals, you know,
[24:55]and I knew he wanted to make love.
[24:58]But for me, I had this full day of work ahead.
[25:01]And so I, you know, I just flagrantly ignored his signal.
[25:07]And then of course I had some regret about that later
[25:09]because, you know, I was thinking,
[25:12]I mean, I really was in that mode
[25:14]of I had a checklist for the day.
[25:17]And he might have been on it,
[25:18]but he was at the very bottom.
[25:20]And I didn't give him the attention he deserved.
[25:25]And on the other hand, it could have happened during that.
[25:27]And that would have been really tough.
[25:30]And that is exactly what you bring up.
[25:32]We had a slight disagreement in our views
[25:35]of that later that surprised me
[25:38]because we neither of us knew exactly
[25:41]what the other person thought after of the fact.
[25:45]And we had to come to terms with that.
[25:48]Yeah, still an unknown.
[25:51]I think we both, and you know, there's no hard feelings.
[25:55]You know what I mean?
[25:56]Of course.
[25:57]Yeah.
[25:58]Yeah.
[25:58]I mean, at some point, yeah, you know.
[26:01]Oh, well, I'm really impressed.
[26:04]And I think it's awesome that you decided to write the book
[26:07]that you wrote it so well.
[26:08]I mean, your prose is really good.
[26:10]It's like, you should now,
[26:11]you should move on to like other narrative novels.
[26:15]I don't know.
[26:16]You could do a lot.
[26:17]Do you have plans to do another book?
[26:19]I do have another book actually that is all
[26:22]it's completely drafted.
[26:23]I initially thought I was writing a book that spanned more time.
[26:28]And then a friend of mine, one day I read,
[26:30]but is now the last chapter in that book.
[26:32]She said, you know, that could be the end of your book.
[26:34]It was too long.
[26:35]So I have another book I've written that actually starts
[26:38]30 years before this one.
[26:40]That sounds just like, you know,
[26:41]wait to get back to it.
[26:43]It will, I need to, it needs more revision, of course,
[26:46]but I've got a full draft.
[26:47]And I plan to put that out there.
[26:50]It'll take me a while to get it all polished up.
[26:53]But it's actually, I was thinking about it recently.
[26:56]It has a similar arc.
[26:58]It is about loss, adventure, and love.
[27:04]It's like, I know this book deep bothers is about it.
[27:08]I said, really, I mean, for a book,
[27:10]maybe not a life, but I don't know.
[27:12]Good combination for a good read.
[27:14]Maybe not for a good year of life.
[27:16]But anyway, thank you so much, Beth.
[27:19]Thank you for coming on and for sharing your story with us.
[27:23]Zippy, thank you so much for having me.
[27:26]And I look forward to hearing more about your life
[27:29]because you've got a lot going on.
[27:30]Oh, thank you.
[27:31]Well, thank you.
[27:32]I really am just thrilled that I got to do this with you.
[27:35]You too.
[27:36]All right, okay.
[27:36]All right, thanks so much.
[27:38]Okay.
[27:39]Bye-bye.
[27:41]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:43]Don't have time to read books.
[27:44]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens
[27:47]and at Moms.
[27:48]Don't have time to read books.
[27:49]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[27:52]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:54]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:56]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[27:58]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[28:00]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:02]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.