Gretchen Rubin, THE FOUR TENDENCIES: The Indispensable Personality Profiles That Reveal How to Make Your Life Better (and Other People's Lives Better, Too)
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30-minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag, where we have lots of wonderful essays and
[0:30]lifestyle features.
[0:31]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:32]We have classes.
[0:33]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at
[0:43]11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:58]Enjoy.
[1:03]Gretchen Reuben is the author of many, many books, including The Happiness Project,
[1:08]Happier at Home, and The Four Tendencies.
[1:11]The subtitle of that is the indispensable personality profiles that reveal how to make your
[1:16]life better and other people's lives better too.
[1:19]Her latest book is Life in Five Senses, How Exploring the Senses Got Me Out of My Head,
[1:25]and Into the World.
[1:26]She recently went to Zippy's Bookshop to sign stock, which means sign copies of books.
[1:30]So if you are looking for a signed copy of a Gretchen Reuben book, you can head over
[1:34]to Zippy's Bookshop in Santa Monica or Order Online at Zippy's Bookshop.com.
[1:40]Anyway, so this episode is kind of funny because I recorded it in July of 2022.
[1:47]But I am just releasing it now because it got stuck on one of my computers and I couldn't
[1:52]figure out my password.
[1:53]And finally, my son, my little son, who's eight, figured it out for me.
[1:57]And we got it off the computer.
[1:59]And anyway, here it is, a little bit late, but it doesn't matter because what books
[2:04]don't age, right?
[2:05]So for those of you who don't know about Gretchen, Gretchen is one of today's most influential
[2:10]and thought-provoking observers of happiness and human nature, who was a highly acclaimed
[2:14]author known for her ability to distill and convey complex ideas from science to literature
[2:19]to stories from her own life with levity and clarity.
[2:24]She has sold millions of copies of her New York Times bestselling books.
[2:28]She has had more than 220 million downloads of her happier with Gretchen Reuben podcast
[2:33]and has an enthusiastic following on her newsletters and social media and all the other
[2:38]things including the happier app.
[2:40]She is an experienced and sought after speaker and makes regular appearances across the
[2:44]video landscape.
[2:45]She was nice enough to come to one of the book fairs that I hosted back in the day before
[2:49]I had a book store at my apartment.
[2:51]Anyway, I hope that you enjoy this interview.
[2:54]I hope that you check out her latest book, Life in Five Senses, which is available now.
[3:01]And by the way, I got mugs for all of these four tendencies for my kids, myself, Kyle.
[3:07]And we still have the mugs everywhere.
[3:09]And as I was packing up my son from boarding school this weekend, he still had his mug
[3:13]like front and center on his desk.
[3:15]It's really sweet.
[3:16]Enjoy the episode.
[3:17]Hi, Gretchen.
[3:18]Thanks so much for coming back on mom's no time to read books.
[3:20]I'm so happy to be talking to you again.
[3:24]So for people listening, I basically begged Gretchen to come back on the podcast to discuss
[3:29]the four tendencies more.
[3:30]We had this great event together for parents in action.
[3:34]And while talking about the four tendencies types, I realized that one of each of my kids
[3:39]was one of the four different tendencies.
[3:41]And then I went home and tested everybody and I was right.
[3:43]That is what happened.
[3:44]Wow.
[3:45]So I was like, I need to talk to Gretchen about how to parent kids with four different
[3:50]tendencies and what that means for a family.
[3:52]And then realized, of course, I can't be the only one who has to parent kids with
[3:55]different types.
[3:56]And what I could learn and what I could then share with everyone else about it.
[4:00]So Gretchen, the four tendencies, why don't you start out for people who haven't read
[4:04]it and tell a when it came out and how you decided on writing that book and how these
[4:09]four tendencies appear in different people.
[4:11]So what people should look out for?
[4:13]Yeah.
[4:14]So I sort of stumbled across this aspect of human nature when I was working on my book
[4:18]better than before, which was all about how to make or break habits because I started
[4:23]noticing these very distinct patterns.
[4:25]When I was talking to people about how and why they could or couldn't break a habit and
[4:31]kind of the light bulb them was when a friend said to me, the weird thing is, I know I'm
[4:36]happy when I exercise and when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never
[4:40]missed track practice.
[4:42]So why can't I go running now?
[4:44]And I thought, OK, well, why I can I can have a lot of hypotheses about why that would
[4:48]be.
[4:49]But what's really going on?
[4:50]And that's what led me to have the four tendencies.
[4:52]So I will briefly describe them, probably most people will know what they are right away.
[4:57]You've got one of each at home.
[4:59]We can do game of thromes, characters.
[5:01]These are very obvious once you know, but there is a quiz if people want to like take
[5:04]a quiz and get a report and an answer, you can just go to GretchenRubin.com slash
[5:09]four tendencies, F-O-U-R tendencies or GretchenRubin quiz, and you can take like three
[5:14]and a half million people have taken the quiz.
[5:16]It's free.
[5:17]It's quick.
[5:18]Explain them quickly and most people can know what they are.
[5:21]You can even take the quiz while you are listening to us.
[5:23]You can open a new browser window and listen at the same time.
[5:27]Mom said I have time to take a quiz.
[5:30]So yeah, yeah, do both.
[5:32]So what this looks at is it sounds very dry, but it turns out to be really juicy, which
[5:36]is how you respond to expectations.
[5:39]So we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations like a work deadline or a homework
[5:45]request from a teacher or inter expectations, my own desire to keep an ears resolution,
[5:52]my own desire to get into meditation.
[5:55]So depending on whether you meet or resist, outer and inner expectations, that's what makes
[6:00]you an a polter, a questioner, and a blager or a rebel.
[6:05]So a polters are the people who readily meet outer and inter expectations.
[6:09]They meet the work deadline or the school assignment and they keep the nearest resolution
[6:13]without much fuss.
[6:15]They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves
[6:18]are just as important.
[6:20]So their motto is discipline is my freedom.
[6:23]So these are the kids who you don't have to remind them to take their gym clothes or
[6:27]to do their homework they just do.
[6:30]So then there are questioners, questioners, question all expectations, they'll do something
[6:33]if they think it makes sense.
[6:35]So they resist anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified.
[6:39]They have to know why they're always looking for reasons.
[6:43]They tend to look to customize.
[6:45]So they're making everything an inner expectation.
[6:48]If it makes sense to them, if it meets their inner standard, they'll do it in a problem.
[6:52]But if it fails their inner standard, they will push back.
[6:56]And so their motto is I'll comply if you convince me why.
[7:01]So these are the kids who are told you ask too many questions and the adults who are told
[7:05]you ask too many questions.
[7:07]Then there are obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet
[7:11]inner expectations.
[7:12]So this is my friend on the track team, which she had a team and a coach counting on her.
[7:16]She showed up in a problem, which she's trying to go on her own.
[7:19]She struggles.
[7:20]And so anybody who says to themselves, I don't understand why I can keep my promises
[7:24]to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself.
[7:27]Or they worry about like taking time for self care or making themselves a priority.
[7:32]This is all science of a blider.
[7:34]And so the big secret for a blider is even to meet an inner expectation.
[7:39]You need outer accountability.
[7:41]You want to read more, join a book group, because you want to read more, do a podcast
[7:46]where you have a second of what you read, because the bliders need outer accountability
[7:49]even for inner expectations.
[7:51]So their motto is you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me.
[7:56]And then finally, Rubbles, Rubbles resist all expectations out or an inner alike.
[8:01]They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time.
[8:04]So they can do anything they want to do, they can do anything they choose to do.
[8:08]But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist.
[8:12]And typically they don't like to tell themselves what to do.
[8:14]Like they don't sign up for a 10 a.m. spin class on Saturday, because they think,
[8:20]well, I don't know if I'm going to, what I'm going to feel like doing on Saturday morning.
[8:23]And just the idea that it's on my calendars is, is annoying to me.
[8:27]So their motto is you can't make me, and either can I?
[8:32]So those are the four, a blider is the biggest tendency for both men and women.
[8:36]Rubble is the smallest tendency, it's conspicuous tendency, but it's the small tendency.
[8:41]So I'm in a folder, and you're in a blider if I remember correctly.
[8:45]Yes.
[8:46]Okay.
[8:47]And so, and then you have one of each as a, in your, in your house, I do.
[8:52]We should be like, it's hard to, you, you peg them all accurately.
[8:55]I do.
[8:56]Yeah.
[8:57]So there you go.
[8:58]There you go.
[8:59]It's like, once you set it, this, I swear, this has been the most impactful discovery about
[9:06]my children ever, like in terms of how I parent them.
[9:09]Oh.
[9:10]And so I'm so grateful to you because it changes the way, I mean, you're always with
[9:15]your kids customizing certain communities that even thinking about it.
[9:19]Right.
[9:20]Like, I know to do it this way with this kid and this with this kid, but this provides
[9:22]not only a framework for me, but because we all know now, which one is which and what
[9:28]that means, I can say like, okay, well, I'm explaining this to this kid because, you know,
[9:33]that's what questioners need.
[9:35]You know, I know you don't need that.
[9:36]So don't even listen.
[9:37]Right.
[9:38]But in terms of, and I know you, you already write about this in the book and, you know,
[9:41]everything, but in terms of learning how to parent, especially a type who is not yours,
[9:46]yeah, actually, even harder is like figuring out how to motivate the child of mine who
[9:51]was most like me when I totally relate to the same struggles and I haven't mastered
[9:55]it myself.
[9:56]So like, what do you do when you see the same issues in someone you loved?
[10:00]that you can't fix in yourself.
[10:01]Like, what would you say to that in terms of these types?
[10:05]Well, it's really interesting that you say that
[10:07]because people often will talk about
[10:09]what it's like to parent someone who's the same tendency
[10:12]or like how to cross over,
[10:14]especially one that's like the opposite tendency.
[10:16]So sometimes I do think it can give you insight
[10:18]because you're sort of like,
[10:19]you kind of get it from the inside.
[10:22]But you're right, like with anything with parenting,
[10:24]sometimes it's sort of like,
[10:25]it's so painful to see our own struggles,
[10:27]sometimes in our children, that sometimes like,
[10:29]that itself can be a parenting challenge.
[10:31]Like, you have bad memories associated with something
[10:34]like not being good at sports.
[10:36]And so seeing a child,
[10:37]it's like so painful to you
[10:38]that it's like adds this whole other element.
[10:41]But I do think what I'd like about the four tendencies
[10:43]is that it's kind of impersonal.
[10:45]So in a way it takes it out of like,
[10:47]you're like me or like,
[10:48]or like we're having a conflict as spouses or something.
[10:51]It's just like, well, you know what,
[10:53]this is a thing,
[10:54]this is a pattern that you see with the bludgers.
[10:56]This is not peculiar to you.
[10:58]You're not behaving this way
[10:59]because you don't care about me
[11:00]or you have no consideration
[11:02]or you just don't make any sense.
[11:04]It's like, this is just a way
[11:05]that some people approach the world.
[11:07]And all of this tendencies have strengths.
[11:09]All of them have kind of weaknesses and limitations.
[11:12]So to me, it kind of takes a sting out of it.
[11:14]Because it's more like,
[11:15]yeah, this is how some people are.
[11:17]Let's figure out how to deal with it,
[11:19]rather than like, what are you doing at me?
[11:21]Like, my husband's a question
[11:23]and a lot of times, questioners don't like the answer questions,
[11:25]which is ironic, but true.
[11:26]And I used to really be like,
[11:28]like, what does it mean about a relationship
[11:30]that you can't just like,
[11:31]I just ask you to do something in like,
[11:33]everything is the conversation,
[11:35]everything is a debate.
[11:36]Like, is it enough that I just ask you,
[11:38]if you asked me, I'll just do it.
[11:40]Like, and then I'm like, now I'm like,
[11:41]oh, he's just like that with everybody.
[11:44]And I benefit from it in many ways.
[11:46]But so how has it come up in your parenting?
[11:48]I'm fascinated by this,
[11:49]that you have one of all,
[11:51]that's unusual in my observation.
[11:53]Right?
[11:53]I know, it's crazy.
[11:55]So what's your husband?
[11:57]My husband's the same as me.
[11:58]We're both a blipers.
[11:59]Oh, some of the happiest marriages I know are two blipers.
[12:01]Really?
[12:02]Oh, yep.
[12:04]Cause we're both trying to make each other happy or something.
[12:06]Can I know?
[12:07]Yeah.
[12:07]And they kind of, they kind of help each other.
[12:09]I don't know, which I've just noticed that pattern.
[12:11]It's, it seems, yeah.
[12:12]Yeah.
[12:13]Yeah.
[12:14]When I'm trying to get everybody to do the same thing
[12:16]at the same time is when we all
[12:17]particularly have paranormal effects there, yeah.
[12:20]Well, like getting in the car
[12:21]cause we're going to go to like my book event,
[12:23]or something.
[12:24]Right.
[12:25]Why do we have to leave that?
[12:26]So I do like the one a holder.
[12:30]I just say the time.
[12:32]It's done.
[12:33]Yeah.
[12:34]This is what no questions asked.
[12:35]Sometimes later, like why did we have, you know,
[12:38]why did we have to leave it that time?
[12:39]Cause now we're here early.
[12:40]And I'm like, but no, no question before it.
[12:42]Right.
[12:43]So that's easy.
[12:44]That's the easiest one.
[12:46]And then the obliger wants to just do everything I say.
[12:49]It's totally fine.
[12:50]Like no question because it's I'm external to that kid.
[12:53]Right.
[12:54]Right.
[12:55]I have to be like, here's why we're going.
[12:57]This is why it's important to me that you're there.
[13:00]This is why we have to leave.
[13:01]This is why usually we leave it this time,
[13:03]but because it's Friday and there's traffic and letter, yes,
[13:06]this is why.
[13:06]So I have to aim that whole targeted communication
[13:10]to that child.
[13:10]So now in my head, I'm budgeting more time,
[13:13]just a little more time to like focus
[13:15]and like address before it comes up.
[13:17]And there's any kind of, you know,
[13:19]questioning.
[13:20]So it's like heading that off at the past.
[13:21]And then with the rebel,
[13:24]it's like a loose, it's an unknown.
[13:27]It's, you know, that's the hardest one.
[13:30]But I'm like, this kid is not being oppositional on purpose.
[13:34]I have to make this like something savory and fun
[13:38]that they'll want to opt into on their own
[13:40]and not feel like they're being forced to do.
[13:42]So I have to find something else about the event
[13:45]that appeals to them directly.
[13:47]So at my book event, for instance,
[13:48]I was like, you know, we're going to this book event.
[13:52]I know you love children's books or whatever.
[13:55]They have a huge section of children's books.
[13:57]And I think it'd be really fun if you were to browse
[13:59]that section while I go do my event.
[14:01]And, you know, and they're like,
[14:02]oh, yeah, I do love doing that.
[14:04]Could I get this kind of book or something?
[14:05]And I'm like, you can,
[14:06]because actually I was going to order that for you.
[14:08]So it's almost like turning it not to make it self-centered
[14:11]for that child.
[14:12]But just the value ad for them that like,
[14:16]maybe I don't need to position it that way.
[14:18]It's about positioning.
[14:19]It's like, yeah,
[14:20]it's like a event.
[14:21]It's like a event positioning messaging.
[14:23]Right.
[14:24]And another thing, because you talk about the rubble.
[14:27]And I will say that I think the rubble tendencies
[14:29]the most different from the other three.
[14:31]And I think for a lot of,
[14:32]because it's the smallest tendency.
[14:34]So I think that for a lot of people,
[14:35]kind of understanding the rubble mentality
[14:38]can be challenging.
[14:39]And I think they do sometimes,
[14:40]it's misunderstood as being selfish or something.
[14:43]Which really just like,
[14:44]it's really like, I'm going to do what I want to do.
[14:47]And there's so much power to that.
[14:49]But a couple other ways to think about it
[14:50]just like as you're navigating.
[14:52]Help me, help me.
[14:53]So one is like, why do you want to do this?
[14:55]So you're like, you want to do this
[14:56]because it's some minute for you.
[14:57]So that's good.
[14:58]Another thing to think about is identity.
[15:01]Identity is super important to rebels.
[15:04]Like they really want to put their values
[15:05]out into the world.
[15:06]And so something about like being a loyal family member.
[15:10]Someone others can count on.
[15:12]Someone who shows up for the people they love.
[15:14]Things like that.
[15:15]Like it's really,
[15:17]this is a big moment in my life.
[15:19]It means so much to me that all of you are here.
[15:23]I really, that really is important to me.
[15:25]It's like, well, I want to do that.
[15:27]I want to do that out of love for you.
[15:28]I want to do that because my identity
[15:30]is that I'm that kind of person.
[15:32]So this is kind of, I'm an environmentalist.
[15:34]I'm an athlete.
[15:35]I'm a person who respects her body.
[15:37]I'm an animal lover.
[15:39]I'm a strong boss.
[15:40]I'm receptive to other people's ideas.
[15:43]Like these kinds of things are really important to rebels.
[15:46]And so they will behave in ways that are consistent
[15:49]with their values.
[15:50]And sometimes you just have to point out with somebody like,
[15:52]this is, you know, and a lot of times
[15:54]rebels will choose to do something just out of love for you.
[15:57]They're choosing to do it because it's important to you.
[15:59]And sometimes it helps to frame it that way.
[16:01]Like like a friend of mine, like she wanted her husband
[16:04]to get like a really boring client dinner with her,
[16:06]which like he absolutely did not want to do.
[16:07]And she's like, I'm really nervous about this dinner.
[16:10]Like I feel a lot better when you're with me.
[16:13]I feel like you make a great impression on people
[16:16]it's just, it would really mean a lot to me if you came.
[16:19]And then it's like he chose to do that out of love for her.
[16:21]Like, you know what I mean?
[16:22]Where's is it a polter?
[16:23]I'm like, well, spouses are supposed to attend.
[16:25]I guess I gotta go.
[16:26]You know, like I don't need that conversation.
[16:28]It's great.
[16:29]And then the other thing is information consequences choice
[16:31]which is something like, in this case,
[16:33]you might not want to say something like,
[16:36]if you're not at the car at 6.30,
[16:37]we're gonna take off without you.
[16:38]I'd love for you to be there.
[16:39]But you know, if you're not there, you know,
[16:41]I gotta, I can't let down the audience.
[16:43]So we're gonna go.
[16:44]and then you just leave them behind.
[16:46]Sometimes that kind of thing can work and can be fine.
[16:48]Sometimes you're like, yeah, I can't play with that fire.
[16:51]But information consequences choice is sort of like,
[16:54]this is what happens if you, you know,
[16:56]like something like, look, you know,
[16:58]if you want to play the college,
[16:59]like there's so many excellent colleges,
[17:02]I think you would love, like we can look around
[17:04]and see your choices.
[17:05]Colleges are interested in high scores and like good grades
[17:09]and a cool and like an interesting essay.
[17:12]And if having a lot of choices is important to you,
[17:13]then that's the kind of thing a person needs.
[17:18]Kind of like, okay, you know, it's like balls in your court.
[17:22]So those are things to think information consequences choices
[17:24]all the time.
[17:25]With the revel, by the way, leaving.
[17:27]And so, okay, well, I understand,
[17:29]but like we all have to go and you'll just be here.
[17:32]Yeah, I've actually, it's been more than one time
[17:34]because every time I try that,
[17:36]by the time I'm like pulling out and driveway or something,
[17:39]I hear like a knock on the window or yeah,
[17:42]there you go.
[17:43]I really was gonna go.
[17:44]That's okay, but you said something very important.
[17:47]If these cannot be idle threats.
[17:49]No, no.
[17:50]And you can't rescue at the last minute,
[17:52]you kind of can't say it.
[17:53]And then at the last minute, fix it.
[17:55]It's gotta be something where you're like the,
[17:57]because what's key is that the consequence falls.
[18:01]And it's not a punishment.
[18:02]It's just, this is the consequence.
[18:03]The consequences, like I've got to leave the house
[18:05]at a certain time.
[18:06]Yeah.
[18:07]And the consequences, you're either in the car,
[18:09]you're not in the car.
[18:10]It's not punishment.
[18:11]It's just like, that's just a natural consequence.
[18:13]But you have to be willing to follow through,
[18:16]like another friend of mine was saying,
[18:18]his wife was a rebel and she never paid their cable bill.
[18:21]And then he's like, but the problem is,
[18:23]then my cable gets turned off too.
[18:25]And I'm like, okay, well then you just have to let that happen
[18:28]because if at the last minute you're paying the cable bill,
[18:30]like what's the problem from her standpoint, just saying.
[18:35]So the other issue that I have been struggling with a little bit
[18:39]is when the tendency types clash,
[18:43]it's creating the most conflicts between the kids of anything.
[18:47]So when we're out the door, the upholder is like,
[18:51]come on, like, you know, and not patient necessarily
[18:55]with like, and can't even understand why the other kids
[18:57]are not like, running out too.
[19:00]So what do you do?
[19:01]And like, it's not just me, right?
[19:03]You have like, there's this whole ecosystem
[19:04]and this gap, the families, but to, you know,
[19:07]groups of, you know, college kids or whatever it is, right?
[19:11]Well, that's so true.
[19:12]And it's funny that you point out the upholder like that
[19:14]because as an upholder, I know like,
[19:16]we're often considered kind of inflexible and rigid
[19:19]and also sort of judgmental.
[19:21]And if I were that, if I were your kid,
[19:22]I would be like so outraged.
[19:24]I'm like, yes, Mom, so we had to go to 30.
[19:26]Like why am I wasting my time?
[19:27]I've been standing here for 20 minutes.
[19:28]I could have been reading on the sofa.
[19:29]Like what's going on next?
[19:31]People are like, why are you so rigid?
[19:33]What does it matter if it takes an extra 15 minutes?
[19:35]The questioner's like, I think if we leave 15 minutes later,
[19:38]maybe we'll be at the traffic
[19:39]and you're like, oh my gosh, just get in the car.
[19:41]Yes, I mean, this is life, right?
[19:44]This is what happens when you have more than one person
[19:46]together these different perspectives emerge.
[19:50]And if you wanna see this, go to an office kitchen
[19:53]and consult the posted signs about how people feel
[19:56]about who loads the dishwasher with the dirty coffee mugs.
[20:00]because you will see all of these things playing out.
[20:03]And I think it's really hard.
[20:05]And I do think that understanding the tendencies
[20:08]can, again, kind of take the sting out of it.
[20:10]One thing I think to be very aware of,
[20:13]especially with someone like you
[20:14]who has like several children,
[20:16]is you don't want to be unfair to your pollers
[20:18]and your obligers because they're the ones
[20:21]that are going to most readily do what you tell them
[20:23]and give them more tasks and chores
[20:26]and unpleasant things than the questioners and the rubbles
[20:28]because it's just more of a hassle to get them to follow.
[20:31]It's a pain sometimes to have to explain to somebody
[20:33]why you're asking them to do something.
[20:34]When you're like, you should just do it
[20:36]because I'm your mother.
[20:36]It's like, that's not going to fly with the questioner.
[20:39]And a rebel is like, let's play this out.
[20:42]Like, bring it on.
[20:44]I don't want to do that.
[20:45]And I'm going to see like, you know,
[20:47]you can't make me even though you're mom, you know.
[20:50]And so I do think that sometimes it can get unfair
[20:52]because you just sort of naturally go to the person
[20:55]who's the most cooperative.
[20:57]And that in a family is unfair.
[20:58]And certainly children and adults too,
[21:00]but certainly children are very aware
[21:02]when things aren't fair.
[21:04]And so it is something to be really aware of.
[21:07]And you know, and questioners and rubbles themselves
[21:09]respond to fairness.
[21:10]So if you say something like, look, you know,
[21:12]the dishwasher has to get, like, it has to get unloaded.
[21:15]And, you know, your brother and sister are saying
[21:18]they've already done it three times this week.
[21:20]Like, why is it fair that you don't have to do it?
[21:22]And then they're like, well, maybe we don't need to download
[21:24]the dishwasher, maybe we should just take dishes out
[21:26]of the dishwasher, like, as we need them.
[21:28]Like, why go through this whole rigmar?
[21:30]Why make my bed every day when I just unmake it?
[21:33]And, you know, and you can, you kind of have to go
[21:35]through that sometimes.
[21:37]But I think it does lead to a lot of conflict
[21:39]when they just see things from a,
[21:41]from a very different perspective.
[21:42]But then how do you, I mean, that was just my kids
[21:45]and their kids, right?
[21:46]So I got to intervene and they'll go up.
[21:48]But some adults with their spouses
[21:51]have the same levels of frustration.
[21:54]Right. I mean, it's not like it ends.
[21:56]Are there certain combinations?
[21:58]Like, I'm thinking you should really intervene
[22:00]as people are dating, right?
[22:02]Like, they should be something,
[22:03]some quiz people take before they get married, right?
[22:06]You should have like the, you're about to get married.
[22:09]Here's the four tendencies.
[22:10]Quit, you know, like, yeah.
[22:12]We're tendencies for newlyweds.
[22:13]Or should they, yeah, think about it, right?
[22:15]Yeah. Well, it's interesting
[22:17]because a blider sort of like kind of the type O
[22:20]and it's to O for blider, but it's also
[22:22]O like universal donor because they pair up
[22:25]the most easily with all the other tendencies.
[22:27]And in particular, when one person is a rebel,
[22:31]whether that's in like a romantic relationship
[22:33]or maybe like an a founding team,
[22:36]if one person is a rebel, almost always
[22:37]the other person is in a blider.
[22:39]Interesting.
[22:40]That's a very, that's a very persistent,
[22:42]like I would never say never,
[22:44]but that's kind of overwhelmingly the pattern.
[22:46]One combination that tends not to work very well
[22:49]is a colder and rebel
[22:51]because they just see the world in such different ways
[22:54]and they want to work in such different ways.
[22:56]So in a pollter is like someone who loves planning
[22:59]and calendars and to-do lists and execution
[23:02]and kind of having a plan and following through.
[23:04]And in rebels, they like, they love spontaneity,
[23:06]they want to feel things through,
[23:08]they want, you know, they want to take advantage
[23:10]of like the moment.
[23:12]And it's just like, especially in the workplace,
[23:14]maybe in romance, they kind of don't even like match up that much.
[23:19]They don't match up that much except in like certain
[23:20]very specific exceptions,
[23:22]which is funny that the exceptions themselves
[23:24]are like so predictable.
[23:26]But like it worked, you often hear someone saying like,
[23:29]oh, it's really hard to work for my rebel boss
[23:30]or I'm a rebel, how am I doing?
[23:32]Do you want this a folder that's like bossing me around?
[23:35]They just, they do have a hard time
[23:37]because they just tend to thrive
[23:39]in very, very different circumstances.
[23:41]And so like in a big team, you could say,
[23:42]well, we need a little bit of everything,
[23:44]but when it's like just like in a one-on-one combination,
[23:47]sometimes that can be tricky
[23:48]because they just work in a different way.
[23:51]Oh, but you know what, you mentioned something
[23:53]that I thought was like a great example
[23:55]of like how you could use this in the workplace.
[23:56]Like you said to your kids, to some of the kids,
[23:59]I'm gonna explain like why we're leaving at 6.30,
[24:01]but other kids like you don't have to listen to this.
[24:03]It's a good thing to do at work.
[24:04]You can say like, hey, I'm here to explain this to you
[24:07]if you care, if you wanna go back to your desk
[24:09]and you don't really, you don't have to sit through this
[24:12]cause a lot of times you're like, why am I listening to it?
[24:13]I don't care.
[24:14]Like I want corporate to figure this out.
[24:17]I don't have to understand like the rationale
[24:19]behind the software program.
[24:20]Some people are like, hey, I'm not switched to software
[24:22]program to sell you, it convinced me this is a good choice.
[24:25]It's like, so we can tailor that
[24:27]so that some people don't get frustrated
[24:29]and feel like their time is wasted,
[24:30]but then other people feel like, well,
[24:31]I wanna understand the rationale
[24:33]behind an important choice.
[24:34]And both of these things are valuable.
[24:36]We want to be part of organizations or families
[24:40]where people make choices for reasonable reasons,
[24:44]but maybe we don't wanna hear,
[24:45]maybe we don't wanna,
[24:47]we don't have to listen to it, you know?
[24:50]Are these fixed, is there any hope
[24:53]that maybe some of my kids might outgrow their type?
[24:56]Or no?
[24:57]Well, see, here's the thing, I don't think anybody should.
[24:59]I mean, they're all, they all have tremendous strength.
[25:02]And I'm not saying I want them to.
[25:03]I'm just wondering, do people ever cross over
[25:06]to become another type or is that like hair type?
[25:08]I do say that because sometimes people do want
[25:10]to kind of evolve out.
[25:12]And I don't think that they do.
[25:13]I really, I believe in the genetic roots of personality
[25:16]and I think this is part of what's hardwired.
[25:18]I think people bring them into the world with them.
[25:20]They're obvious in children from often
[25:23]from very, very young ages.
[25:25]So I don't, and you're not,
[25:27]I don't think you're gonna work in one at home
[25:28]or one at 20 or one at 40.
[25:30]But what I do think is that with time and experience,
[25:34]people learn how to manage their tendencies better.
[25:36]So they don't feel the frustration
[25:40]of their tendency as much because they've learned
[25:42]how to manage it.
[25:43]So a lot of times the bliders will build in
[25:45]just kind of intuitively, they'll build in
[25:47]all kinds of accountability for things that are important
[25:49]to them.
[25:50]And so they're effortlessly following through
[25:52]on everything that's important
[25:53]because they have the accountability they need.
[25:56]So they're not aware that that's something,
[25:59]that that's kind of a pressure point
[26:01]because they're just built it into the system.
[26:03]So it just happens.
[26:05]Here's my last question of something that really bothers me.
[26:08]So as an obliger, when I am meeting someone for anything,
[26:12]and even just come over,
[26:14]how does five sound for dinner?
[26:16]I'm like, we are getting there at five.
[26:18]In my head, I'm fact checking, like being on time for me
[26:21]is like incredibly important.
[26:22]And when I'm two minutes late, I'm so annoyed
[26:25]and I have a great suggestion for you.
[26:26]Tell me, I won't even finish, go.
[26:28]Yeah, I have the exact same problem.
[26:30]And somebody told me what to do.
[26:31]Yeah, the problem is you want to be on time, right?
[26:34]Yes.
[26:35]So instead of saying, we'll be there at five,
[26:38]say we'll be there between five and five, 15,
[26:40]or we'll be there between five and five, 30.
[26:42]Because often the person on the other end
[26:44]doesn't need that level of certainty.
[26:47]But to you, you're like, if it's five,
[26:49]oh, two, I'm late, I'm late, I'm late, I'm late.
[26:51]So if you give yourself more of a margin,
[26:54]then you're going to feel like,
[26:55]well, I'm not going to be late until five, 30.
[26:56]But probably you'll be trying to get there
[26:59]by more like five, but you take so much of the pressure
[27:02]off yourself.
[27:03]And then if somebody's like, hey, five, 30's too late,
[27:05]because like, you need to get here
[27:07]and then we need to take off, then they can say to you,
[27:09]what is the proper margin?
[27:11]And then you know that.
[27:13]But still, it's, I have found it to be so helpful
[27:17]because I'm exactly the same way.
[27:19]My anxiety would be for no reason.
[27:22]It didn't matter if I was five minutes late,
[27:24]but I would be really worried.
[27:26]Yeah, needlessly.
[27:29]And so give yourself like, wiggle room.
[27:33]Okay.
[27:35]What about trying to convince the other person not to be late?
[27:38]Okay, this is really hard.
[27:40]Right.
[27:41]That's why my on time thing fails if one of the kids is me
[27:45]or one of the, somebody in the ecosystem is making us late.
[27:49]What do you do to that person who's not as concerned about time?
[27:52]Well, there is that whole thing.
[27:53]Like what is it like for every person after the first three
[27:56]at 20 minutes to get anywhere?
[27:58]Like there's some, there's some rule about that.
[28:02]This is really hard.
[28:03]And people, there is a key,
[28:05]I keep meaning to like really think this through
[28:07]about how people have very different senses of time.
[28:10]So there's one thing, one is people's senses of time.
[28:12]And one thing is whether people think it matters to be late.
[28:15]Cause some people, like especially someone like a question
[28:17]is like, well, look, it doesn't matter for 20 minutes late.
[28:20]Like I want to finish up when I'm doing
[28:22]and like it doesn't, it doesn't matter to them.
[28:24]So you have to explain to them why it matters.
[28:26]Like why, you know, why, why does it matter?
[28:29]So something like if we leave before six 30,
[28:32]we're going to have so much less traffic.
[28:33]If it's six 30 or after like forget it,
[28:35]we're going to be in the car for like an extra hour.
[28:37]Okay, that makes sense.
[28:39]Or, you know, they're planning to start dinner.
[28:41]And if everybody is there and we're not there yet,
[28:43]everybody's going to be waiting for us.
[28:45]We're going to feel very self conscious
[28:46]and we're going to be very inconsiderate.
[28:48]It's like, oh, okay, that makes sense.
[28:50]And even like with a rebel often,
[28:52]if you explain like why something that again,
[28:54]that's like information consequences choice.
[28:56]It's like, well, if we keep other people waiting, that's rude.
[28:59]But this just sort of this idea of like,
[29:01]I want to get going on my day.
[29:03]That's kind of doesn't really cut it with a lot of people
[29:07]because that's really just your preference, right?
[29:09]They're just like, well, you would prefer
[29:11]to be up and out the door at nine 30.
[29:12]I would prefer to be up and out the door at 10.
[29:16]I prefer to sleep a little bit later.
[29:18]And it's like, why do you get your way?
[29:20]And I don't get my way.
[29:21]It's like, well, why?
[29:23]Yeah.
[29:24]And maybe something I need to work on too.
[29:27]It's like, is it that important?
[29:28]Is it like what you were saying?
[29:30]Like, is this one of those times
[29:31]where we have to be right on time, right?
[29:34]Like a podcast, yes.
[29:35]Like a dinner party where you're going to be there for three hours
[29:38]doesn't matter if you're five minutes late,
[29:40]if you're at something's house versus a restaurant
[29:42]or, you know, all those things?
[29:44]Well, and I realized I had a very bad habit
[29:48]where I would sort of like, like even when we weren't in a rush,
[29:51]I would like push, push, push, push, push, let's go,
[29:53]let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.
[29:55]And it creates this atmosphere of like kind of freneticism
[29:59]or kind of like...
[30:00]Why are we running late or like, why, why is it that you have to be racing to do these things instead of just like naturally unfolding.
[30:07]And so I really worked on that myself because I was like, why, why am I just doing this because so one thing that helped me with that was to like really have a specific time.
[30:17]Especially like when I was walking my daughters to school every day, instead of like just sort of starting to speed up because I kind of unconsciously wanted to cross it off my list.
[30:26]I'd be like, we want to leave the house at this time.
[30:30]And so if we were five minutes before that time, there was no need to worry because it wasn't time to go yet.
[30:39]So sometimes like having a specific time it's like, it's not even that you leave on time. It's that you're not hurrying early because some people it's like, you start
[30:48]hurrying early. Okay. It's just totally unnecessary. But it's easy to fall into that, at least for me it's very easy to fall into that. So this happens to be the airports. It's like, I have to be careful or I will leave like six hours early because I'm like, well, I leave so early. Right.
[31:05]I used to make when it was easier to just like jump on a new flight. I used to always arrive and like hop on the other flight. And then I would end up brushing anyway to make the earlier flight.
[31:14]And it's really good. Oh, this is a problem. This happens to me. I don't know if I'm so early that I'm like, oh, there's a train leaving for New Haven in like 10 minute. Yeah. So then I
[31:23]read that as an upholder. I'm like, do I try to get on that one and change my change my routine or do I sit here because I don't, I can't, I can't be that flexible. And the answer is I can't be that flexible. So I will watch that train leave. Yeah. But I'm so early. Sometimes it's a relief that I'm not so early that I I'm faced with that option. Yes.
[31:43]So funny. Um, this has been like so enormously helpful to me. Um, thank you. I am enormously helpful to everybody listening to otherwise. It's just my own personal like coaching session.
[31:54]Life lessons. But I really do think all of these interpersonal relations are so great. And this really unlocks the key to more effective communication and that helps improve people's lives. So anyway, thank you.
[32:07]I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah. So the book is you want to read more of the book is the four tendencies. And on my website also I have a lot of like nutshell guides. If you're like, give me one page on dealing with a rebel child or like, what do I do with my question or husband or whatever.
[32:21]There's a lot of like cheat sheets there and then in the book. I go into it all and anyone listening should subscribe to Gretchen's amazing newsletters.
[32:30]She has many and you were so kind to include the lettering with me this week, which made me so happy. So thank you.
[32:37]Oh yeah. Well, I'm congratulations to you once again. Thanks. All right. Seriously. Thank you. And have a great weekend. And now I'm going to go or I'm going to be late for the next thing.
[32:46]Okay. Bye. Bye. Okay. Bye.
[32:50]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at the be Owens and at moms don't have time to read books.
[32:58]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[33:05]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.