Aisha Harris, WANNABE: Reckonings with the Pop Culture That Shapes Me
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[1:03]Aisha Harris is the author of Wanna Be, Reckoning with the Pop Culture that shaped me.
[1:08]This episode is guest hosted by Julie Chavez, who was the host of Ask a Librarian podcast
[1:14]and is an author of an upcoming Zippy Books title.
[1:17]Aisha is an author, co-host and critic for NPR's hit podcast, Pop Culture Happy Hour,
[1:23]where they talk about all things pop culture.
[1:25]Previously, she worked as a writer and editor at The New York Times and Slate Magazine,
[1:29]covering everything from creations of American Girl Dolls to Dolly Parton to the Exonerated Five.
[1:35]She also created and hosted her own film and TV podcast Represent, which featured interviews
[1:40]with authors like Barry Jenkins and Greta Gerwig.
[1:43]She was born and raised in Connecticut and earned her BA in theater from Northwestern University
[1:48]and an MA in cinema studies from NYU.
[1:51]She currently lives in the Bay Area.
[1:53]Enjoy her talking about Wanna Be.
[1:55]Aisha, thanks so much for coming on moms.
[1:58]Don't have time to read books.
[1:59]I'm so happy to interview you today.
[2:01]Thank you.
[2:02]Thanks so much for having me.
[2:03]It's great to be here.
[2:05]And I know we've already discussed if people hear things in the background,
[2:08]it's because life is happening and they're painting your building.
[2:11]Are they painting in some extreme color, which would really be exciting?
[2:16]I don't think so.
[2:17]I think it's just they're repainting it like the same kind of like beige and grayish color.
[2:22]So not exciting, but it'll pop still a little pop more than it was before.
[2:26]So that's good.
[2:27]Yes, refreshing the industrial shades.
[2:29]I read a book to the kids the other day about how they have to constantly paint
[2:33]the Golden Gate Bridge because it rusts and wears down and that and never occurred to me.
[2:38]So these are the important things that I spend my days thinking about.
[2:42]You're building painting the Golden Gate Bridge.
[2:44]Just just what I do.
[2:45]So I'm so happy you're here today though because I want to talk about your upcoming book,
[2:50]which is Wanna Be, Reckoning with the pop culture that shapes me.
[2:55]And I really enjoyed your book.
[2:58]It's a series of essays.
[3:00]And I really, you are a very sharp, thoughtful, talented, targeted writer.
[3:09]I mean, I was reading it and thinking I want to go back and reread these because they're just so
[3:13]well written.
[3:14]So congratulations.
[3:15]You've really done a great job.
[3:16]Thank you.
[3:17]Thank you.
[3:18]That makes you so happy that you've enjoyed it and it makes me feel good about
[3:24]having gone through this whole process.
[3:25]It's been very, very, very interesting.
[3:28]It's my first book.
[3:28]So okay, always a fun experience.
[3:31]You know, I feel like if anyone had told me precisely what it would look like,
[3:37]you know, all the drill downs because there's writing the book and then,
[3:40]but going through the publication process, it is, it's a thing.
[3:43]There's a lot happening that you would not, you wouldn't know before you get into it.
[3:48]And all these weird pitfalls, I think, emotional and otherwise that you just that take you by
[3:53]surprise.
[3:53]Did you find that?
[3:55]Oh, absolutely.
[3:56]I mean, I started writing this during the pandemic, literally right when the pandemic
[4:00]really started in full earnest, like lockdown and working on the proposal and dealing with
[4:06]all of the emotional and mental things that all of us were dealing with to varying degrees,
[4:11]like while also trying to craft a book was it could be stressful, but I'm happy that I was able
[4:19]to come out on the other side of it.
[4:21]And it was very much a learning experience about the whole process of getting a book done
[4:28]and getting it out there.
[4:29]100% would you like to write another one?
[4:31]I mean, you're kind of early days.
[4:35]I mean, my editor will be mad if I said no.
[4:38]But I will say it might be a little while before I write another book.
[4:43]You need to let the amnesia set in before you want to sign up again.
[4:50]So I think that's a very honest answer.
[4:53]Very true, but don't worry, editor.
[4:55]There's hope.
[4:55]She'll be back.
[4:58]I love it.
[4:58]Well, I, okay.
[5:00]So I was just saying to you before we started recording that, I've been listening to your
[5:03]voice a lot this week because I've been listening to you on NPR's pop culture happy hour.
[5:08]And I love listening.
[5:10]I was laughing at the most recent episode about the Barbie movie.
[5:17]When you started off talking about how you are not a fan of IP and yet
[5:22]Barbie was one of your recommendations.
[5:24]So I just, I really enjoy the podcast.
[5:26]How did you start doing that?
[5:29]Well, the podcast has existed long before I came there.
[5:33]It started at NPR with my three hosts, Linda Holmes, Stephen, Thompson, and Glenn
[5:39]Walden as well as Trey Graham, Trey left the show a while ago.
[5:44]And at some point, they were looking for a fourth host.
[5:47]And the show was also going daily.
[5:50]And this is all right around the 10th anniversary of the show.
[5:52]So it's been around for a while.
[5:54]Yeah.
[5:55]And I had been a guest host.
[5:57]Well, for those who may not be familiar with the show, we're a sort of chit chat conversational
[6:03]show where we talk about the latest film TV movies,
[6:07]occasionally books, music.
[6:08]And we also will have like certain evergreen episodes as well
[6:11]where we talk about like favorite TV series finale and things like that.
[6:16]So there's four of us hosts.
[6:17]But then we also have various guest hosts and critics come in to talk with us as well.
[6:22]And I had been one of those before joining NPR and pop out your happy hour of full time.
[6:27]And yeah, this this also happened through the pandemic.
[6:31]I got higher.
[6:31]Yeah.
[6:32]I haven't for you.
[6:33]I tell you.
[6:34]Yeah.
[6:35]Yeah.
[6:35]And I had hosted a podcast of my own previously at my time at Slate Magazine.
[6:41]It was called Represent.
[6:42]And it was a film and TV podcast.
[6:44]But it was focused on anything that had to do with, you know,
[6:47]people of color, women, gender, anyone who wasn't a straight white guy.
[6:51]But yes, we didn't fight on the show generally to talk about
[6:55]the pop culture that they were into and that we were digging.
[6:58]And so that was a little bit of my background.
[6:59]And then I had been at the New York Times.
[7:02]And I just wanted to get back into podcasting.
[7:04]There was the perfect opportunity.
[7:05]So I've been at pop culture happy hour for two and a half, almost three years.
[7:10]And it's been such a joy.
[7:11]I've been a huge fan of the show before.
[7:14]So it was kind of a dream come true actually.
[7:16]You're perfectly suited for it.
[7:18]It's you're just so fun to listen to and the interplay between all of you is it's just
[7:24]it's such a great show.
[7:26]So anyone who has not listened to it should put it on their podcast radar stat.
[7:32]Yeah, so okay.
[7:33]So then how tell me a little bit about how you decided or or what was the impetus for
[7:39]this book for you?
[7:41]Because obviously you've been doing critic work as a critic for many, many years and
[7:45]you're definitely immersed in pop culture.
[7:48]So tell me about that part.
[7:50]Yeah, I think a lot of journalists, if they're at it long enough,
[7:54]eventually people come whispering in their ear, you should write a book, you should write a book.
[7:59]And that had happened to me a few times where, you know, agents had come to me and say,
[8:03]like, do you want to write a book?
[8:04]And the timing was never quite right.
[8:06]I didn't have the right idea.
[8:08]I didn't know.
[8:09]I didn't have a sense of what I wanted to write about.
[8:12]And then like another this happened the same way in editor, my lovely editor,
[8:18]Daniel Alexa, she reached out to me and was like, you want to write a book?
[8:22]And I was like, you know what?
[8:23]I think I'm ready now.
[8:25]That's so.
[8:26]So I worked with, she connected me with an agent, also my lovely agent,
[8:32]Alia Hannah Habim, and she and I kind of parsed out ideas.
[8:36]But what I wanted the book to look like and I decided, you know, I am,
[8:40]you know, I'm a critic.
[8:41]I write essays and why not just stay in that mood, but create this sort of collection
[8:46]of essays that really tugs on all the things that I nerd out about that I love.
[8:50]And also that feel really deeply personal.
[8:53]And so I had the idea that I wanted to write about how pop culture has, you know,
[8:59]influence my life and also look out beyond that and how it connects to all of us,
[9:04]how it influences everyone's lives, whether we know it or not.
[9:08]And what are the pitfalls of that?
[9:10]And then what are the fun things about it?
[9:12]And I feel as though it all kind of came together very nicely and in a way that I feel
[9:18]as though people who are familiar with my work will get you know me even better and know more
[9:23]about, you know, where I'm coming from.
[9:25]And also maybe hopefully they will also learn a little bit something about themselves
[9:30]or learn things that they, you know, had never thought of before.
[9:34]So it's been, it's been a fun, interesting journey to like also just discover things about
[9:40]myself and my writing style and also my procrastination style and all those other things,
[9:45]which I'm sure you are familiar with.
[9:48]So yes, I can relate shockingly.
[9:50]Yes.
[9:50]What is your procrastination style?
[9:52]That's what I want to know.
[9:54]Oh, man.
[9:54]Like, at one point I had to get an app that I tried to use an app that like-
[10:00]blocked off certain websites. So like while I'm writing, so Twitter, you know, my Gmail,
[10:06]look at my email. Oh my gosh. And then like when I know it's really bad is when I start cleaning.
[10:12]Oh, because I'm not. I'll never just say like, Oh, I, I want to clean right now. I mean,
[10:18]I'm not that type of person. I'm a messy person. And so once I start thinking, Oh, man, maybe I'll
[10:23]just like do some laundry or I really need to clean up this clutter next to my bed. That's when
[10:28]you know that I'm deep, deep, deep things are procrastination. It's a bad at that point. Oh,
[10:34]that's amazing. Good for you with the self awareness as you're like scrubbing the grout with a toothbrush.
[10:38]You're like, I'm never going to get done. Yes. I love that. I love hearing people's procrastination
[10:46]style because I mean, is there anything more human, right? It's no, we've all been there. I love
[10:53]avoidance. I'm getting so much better at it too as I get older. It's amazing. I can let things
[10:57]go for a really long time. Yeah. So I took down every single essay I read, you know, you said it,
[11:05]you were hoping that people would learn more about you. And then maybe also have time to examine
[11:10]themselves. That's exactly what this book achieves, in my opinion. I think you really nailed it.
[11:15]It's so, it's so well written. It's, and you did such a good job in the crafting of the essays
[11:23]that you leave space at just the right moments for the reader. I think to have a moment to
[11:29]think about their own experience of their own life and you really weave it well with your
[11:34]personal narratives. And I love that you started off with the story of your name and talking about
[11:39]Stevie Wonder because I really, I've loved that idea of these stories that we believe or that
[11:46]we carry into adulthood that we're sure it was the way it happened. And then it turns out it was not,
[11:52]but you just did such a good job of crafting that all together. Did you write these in the order
[11:57]that they appear or did you write them in a different order? Yeah. So that was actually, yeah,
[12:03]that was the very first essay I tackled. And it was actually the one that I used as my proposal
[12:09]for like sending to my editor to say like, hey, this is, this is what I have in mind for what the book
[12:14]will be. Got it. And it felt like the natural starting point because that was my name is the one
[12:21]that I was born with. It was one of the earliest forms, like things that formed how I see the world
[12:28]and how people have interacted with me. Oftentimes that's the first thing they see of me is my name
[12:33]in whatever context we're at. And so yeah, that one was the first. And then all the other essays
[12:39]were more or less like kind of all over the place because my brain also does not,
[12:44]not only my procrastinator, but also just my brain is always firing in so many different directions.
[12:51]There were some essays that actually like became one that were kind of two at one point and then
[12:56]melted into one because they weren't working separately. So yeah, for the most part though,
[13:02]they were kind of all written, not out of order. But the themes were sort of,
[13:08]the trick was actually trying to figure out like how do we sort these different stories that
[13:14]some of them have like actually connecting themes and moving into them. And I think we found like
[13:19]I wanted to make sure that it deals with all these different subjects, race, gender,
[13:23]and I wanted to make sure it wasn't so heavily front loaded with race at the front or like
[13:28]heavily front loaded with things are dealing with similar issues in the back. I could want
[13:32]it to have them mix. So that readers could kind of have a reprieve every, you know, every other essay
[13:38]and go in a different direction, but still feel like they're reading something cohesive and singular
[13:45]in a way. You did a really good job. It's not easy to do that. I think making, I tried to write
[13:51]my book as essays and it was a failure. So I mean, hats off to you. I mean, don't worry, it worked out
[13:58]fine. There's a happy ending there, but like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but there's one of those where
[14:02]you don't sometimes appreciate how challenging when I used to think of a book of essays,
[14:08]you think, great, you just write them all hammer them together and then you're good to go.
[14:13]Right. There's so much subtlety in how they go together and exactly to what you're saying where
[14:17]it's just, okay, you have to make sure that the rhythm of it feels good and that it does feel like
[14:22]everything belongs together as opposed to, ooh, something shiny and then you start writing about
[14:26]something else. So I think it, yeah, it's, it was really a joy to read. Okay. So I want to talk
[14:32]through just a few of the things that stood out to me. Number one, I think people will love this book
[14:36]because it has so many pop culture references, obviously. But like, you have so many deep ones
[14:42]when you talk about playing Carmen San Diego, I loved that game. Yes, I loved it. I loved the show.
[14:50]I still have that jingle in my head. If somebody said, oh, where in the world, if they say that
[14:55]phrase, that's it. That's it. That's the whole day. Carmen San Diego and the whole, the, the,
[15:00]acapella group. I can't, I mean, that was just so things like that that I love. But also what's
[15:06]hilarious is about that is when I got to the nostalgia portion, I was like, yeah, I do really pull
[15:10]those things forward. Don't I? Well, we, we all do, right? Like that's, that's why it works so well
[15:18]is that like, even those of us like myself who, as you've already mentioned, I have a thing against
[15:23]IP generally speaking, I still find the tug, the pull sometimes irresistible to, you know,
[15:30]to deal with. So to go down. Oh, good. That makes me feel better. I'm not a total, total failure.
[15:36]Okay. So that was a really interesting thing I noticed. But I really like also where you started
[15:42]with talking, you know, one of the themes you tackle early on in the essays is about black
[15:48]artistry and where it thrives. And I wanted to ask you that because you pose it as somewhat of a
[15:55]rhetorical question in, in that I say, but under what circumstances can and does black artistry
[16:00]truly thrive? What would you say is your answer for that? That's such a great question. And I think
[16:10]it thrives in a place where the artist feels free to be as weird as they want or as out of the box
[16:22]as they want and also has the platform to be able to do that. And so what I'm getting at in that
[16:29]essay is this idea that in many ways we are in this sort of peak era of black art. And part
[16:38]because there are so many black creators now who have far more power than they they have in previous
[16:44]decades. They're each, each shot at rhymes, you have Beyonce, you have Donald Glover, you have
[16:50]very Jenkins, Jordan, and people like the list can go on and on. And these are creators who
[16:55]are able to make the work that they have and also have the support system to do that.
[17:00]This isn't to say that black art hasn't thrived in the past. Of course it has. But it's often
[17:06]in like in spite of all of the things, all of the many barriers and hurdles that they have to
[17:14]go through. And now there is a moment where we are seeing the ability to create these things on a
[17:21]large scale and with the support and the attention that they they deserve. And so I think that
[17:28]that is how art is thriving right now. I mean, it's not all sunshine, you know, a lot of shows
[17:33]especially in this era of streaming giants kind of cutting all of their shows and all of their
[17:39]content. I hate to say content, like, but like all of their programming. Yeah. And the first
[17:44]to go is often those that are created by queer creators, people of color women. So like it's not
[17:50]perfect. But I do think we've made a lot of headway. And what I wanted to say in the essay and what
[17:57]I wanted to convey was that like because of that, we should also as consumers and as critics
[18:02]really adjust how we judge that art and how we critique that art. And that it doesn't have to be
[18:09]it doesn't always have to be just about is this quote unquote negative representation or positive
[18:14]representation. It can be more about like how does this make you feel? What is it trying to say?
[18:21]Are there good things or the bad things? I just think we should have more nuance and be I think
[18:26]less knee jerky and how we respond to a lot of black art today. So that was kind of what I was
[18:33]hoping to convey within that essay. Yeah. Well, I think you did. So when you say knee jerk response
[18:41]is that in reference to like you're saying, whether it's negative or positive in terms of the
[18:48]portrayal and just that oversimplification of it. Right. That's part of it because I as a black critic,
[18:54]there are times where and that I explain this in the essay a bit. There are times when I am
[18:58]critiquing a piece of art that is created or involves black people that I don't think is good.
[19:05]And then I will have other black people in responding to my critique saying, Oh, well,
[19:11]how can you, if you critique them, then they're not going to make more of these things. This is
[19:17]bad. You're like, how can you be selling us out? Like, you got to support black art. The great quote
[19:22]by Issa Rae, I'm rooting for everybody black is a great quote. I love it. But also like, I don't
[19:27]have to take that literally because not all are created by any demographic is going to be
[19:35]a good, just not an aesthetic level and be actually helpful or contributing in a like
[19:43]quote unquote positive way to their communities or the demographics that they represent. And so that's
[19:49]kind of what I was trying to explain is that because we are in this peak era, we can be,
[19:54]we can afford to be more critical than we used to be able to back in the day when it was black
[20:00]with Asian films when Sydney Poitier and Harry Belafonte were like the only mainstream
[20:05]felt like Hollywood actors who were getting consistent work and starring roles,
[20:09]I can understand why people would have been a little bit more protective of whatever art they
[20:14]were making. But I say black art isn't fragile and to not, to treat it with kids' gloves is to
[20:23]actually do value it. And I think regardless of whether you like it or not, it should be
[20:29]critiqued and held up to the same standards as we hold up all other art that's not created by
[20:34]black artists. So that's really what I, what I've been and what I'm trying to get at in that
[20:39]time. So by engaging with it in a more elegant nuanced sort of detailed way, then there's more
[20:48]potential to elevate it in, in this space because that's afforded now when it wasn't before
[20:56]Yeah, yeah, exactly. Then to me, that's part of progress. That is progress means not just
[21:02]more of it or better content. It's also just having that freedom again to, you know, say what we
[21:08]like and don't like without fear of retribution. Yes. Well, it's such a tricky place. I know I only,
[21:17]or I mostly see it in obviously the book space, but the host of the stacks, Tracy, I got to
[21:23]interview her a while back and she was talking about how Tracy Thomas, she was talking about how
[21:28]reviews are for readers, not for writers. And so it's kind of this, you know, if you're not able to
[21:35]give a true critical review of something, then is it worth it to do that? If that's your job,
[21:42]if that's the position that you're in, you know, it's sort of making space for, for more honest,
[21:48]because it's true if we're all just sort of high-fiving each other all the time about what we've
[21:53]written, then nobody knows kind of, there's no guiding principle there for how people choose what to
[21:59]read. So yeah, I mean, yeah, that's, I really enjoyed. And like I said, you do a good job in those
[22:08]essays of just, I really will read them again because they were so detailed. You have so many examples,
[22:16]so many good things to kind of sit and think on. So I think this is a book people want to own,
[22:23]I mean, I think it's plus it's, I love the cover design. Oh, thank you. Giving 90s, 90s vibes,
[22:30]you know, it really, I mean, between that and like talking about the Spice Girls and all the stuff
[22:36]you have in there. I mean, it's just, it's a winner. It can go right next to the 90s book with the
[22:41]clear phone on the cover, which was also like, yep, I mean, that too. Add to cart. So another thing
[22:49]that you really, the thing that you talked about that I liked is this sort of pathological obsession
[22:56]that we have in fandom now that's part of things being on. So from media and you were talking about
[23:03]Taylor Swift. And I just was so interested in that. What is the thing that you are like, what are
[23:11]you a fan of personally? Oh, man. That's a, that's a very hard question. I'm a fan of so many things.
[23:17]I guess if I had to say what I'm, what I'm closest to being a stand of. Yes, that's helpful. Yes.
[23:25]Like, look, I, again, this is part of the essay. I don't believe in worshiping any, anything, any art,
[23:32]but I mean, I, I think the thing that I come closest to just being a, a stand of
[23:43]sound really. So I had a huge Turner classic movies fan. It's like, I leveled movies. That is my thing.
[23:51]And it's been a lifelong, you know, relationship. I started watching it when I was like around
[23:57]12 years old. My, you know, it was constantly on in the background. I would tape back when
[24:04]BHS is the thing. I was literally, I had my now playing. They're like TCM guy that they have every
[24:11]month. I had that and I would check, I would look at the schedule and then I'd be like, oh, I want
[24:15]to record these movies. And then I'd record them while I was at school on the BHS and then go home
[24:19]and watch them and woe to the person who tried to tape over it. Oh, yeah. Well, my mom and I had to
[24:26]like, luckily we had more, more TVs in the house because I taped my movies downstairs and she
[24:31]taped her soap operas. Oh, so good. Yes, yes. We have that, we have that sister worked out.
[24:38]But yeah, I just love what they, they do. I love that they diversified in the last, you know,
[24:44]few years with their hosts. I was at the festival this year. It was my second time of the festival.
[24:49]It was the blast. And I also just love how nerdy everyone is at that festival. Like, it's
[24:54]all movies, you know, people clap as soon as they see like, as the credits are rolling and they
[25:00]see like, I don't know, Humphrey book arts name pop up on the screen. So it's very nerdy.
[25:04]So yeah, I think I'm just like a huge fan of classic movies and TCM especially and what they've
[25:09]done and tried to do in terms of like getting the word out and passing on classic fandom,
[25:15]classic movie fandom onto younger generations. And I guess the other one that I just like,
[25:20]closest to standing is Janet Jackson. Like, I will, I will run into a fire for her. I know,
[25:25]I won't, but like, but you would think about it. You'd think twice. I would think about it. Yeah,
[25:30]yeah, I love her. I love her. I've seen her twice. I'm seeing her again this summer. She's just,
[25:35]she's just amazing. She's amazing. So what is the line? Like, because I'm hearing you
[25:41]because I love, I love hearing what people are into just like you're talking about that. I think
[25:45]it's so, I think there's something so refreshing about people being on board. And when you get
[25:53]to be with those other people, like at a concert or a conference, it just is, there's this
[25:57]camaraderie that is really cool. But what's the line where it becomes not good in your mind? Like,
[26:05]what would be, I mean, obviously we know stalking bad, but in terms of what, where, where's that
[26:12]tipping point? Because you write a lot about it. And I'm just interested to hear your
[26:15]thoughts on that. So I really wish that the TV show, Donald Glover's shows, Warren had come out
[26:22]before I finished writing this book because it's actually like, such a, it's it's about Beyonce,
[26:28]ostensibly Beyonce stand up, but stand them in general. And it's about a serial killer who kills
[26:34]partially in the name of their pop star, who is based off of Beyonce. Okay. But anyway,
[26:40]that's that's one line, like killing people because they, because they don't love your,
[26:46]your favorite pop star. That's maybe bad. Hold on. Yes. I think the other line is when you start
[26:57]arguing with strangers on the internet about your, your favorite artists, I don't quite understand it.
[27:05]It feels like a few title exercise. And often it turns into harassing and stalking. There are
[27:12]certain artists who will shall remain nameless, but their fans are especially terrible. And they
[27:20]also tend to literally sick their fans on the people who might say even the smallest, you know,
[27:28]most harmless critique of their, their God or goddess. Yes. So I think, I think that is,
[27:35]that's where I start to get like, I, I'm all for, you know, people who have Tumblr fan pages
[27:41]who that I follow so many celebrity fan pages. Like, they're all dead celebrities really like,
[27:46]I follow the list of the Taylor page. I follow a Marilyn Monroe with Dorothy Dandridge page like
[27:51]on Instagram. That's what I, I'm into that. I appreciate those like weird digital shrines to people
[27:58]who like didn't even live to see Instagram be a thing. But in, in Tumblr is fun. And I, I love
[28:04]that like, people can be so creative with those sorts of things. And I think like creative
[28:09]fandom is always fanfic, like, very cool. But I do think once it gets to being mean to other people
[28:16]on the internet to harassing people to jumping in those celebrities DMs, like, that's where it gets
[28:24]and then of course there's like the, the other aspect of it where it's like fans are demanding
[28:30]their creators do this or that or like, you know, with the whole Ghostbusters debacle when they
[28:36]had an all female cast for that. And then they wound up harassing the stars of that, including
[28:40]Leslie Jones, like, and like trying to tank their rotten tomato scores. Like, that's just like,
[28:47]it's demonic, like it's just beyond my comprehension. And I think we've really
[28:53]a lot of people have lost the plot. They've lost the thread. It's like, come back. It's okay.
[29:00]Like, can we live in the real world? Yes. Yeah. That's, it's scary. It's so, we live in such a
[29:08]weird time with that because there is this potential for removal of consequence or we feel that way
[29:15]because of the internet, right? So people are just, you know, very able to just spew their crazy.
[29:21]And it's, I need you to keep it, keep it a little more tight, right? Just put it back inside.
[29:27]Maybe try and let it dissipate. What is your, what are you most excited about,
[29:34]about sharing this book? I'm excited about people really engaging with it and hearing how
[29:43]it's like something reminds them of themselves. I've already had people talk to me about like,
[29:49]the, the first essay about my name and how it's, it's, it's such a similar experience regardless
[29:56]of whether, like, they don't even have to have my name. They, like, obviously, there are-
[30:00]or plenty of people, especially people of color,
[30:03]who might have quote unquote unique names,
[30:06]at least unique in American white American standards
[30:10]and have had similar experiences of just like people
[30:13]mispronouncing it, like very badly and not even asking
[30:17]how you pronounce it, you know,
[30:18]just like making fun of it, like all these things.
[30:21]So I'm really looking forward to people
[30:24]just getting a chance to hopefully, again,
[30:27]see themselves in it and share that with me.
[30:30]Like whatever they took away from it,
[30:34]I hope enlightening and maybe inspiring.
[30:37]Yeah. One quick note before we go,
[30:39]I wanted to say I really like the procreation expectation essay.
[30:44]It was. So well written,
[30:46]but also I think so important.
[30:48]There's so many people that are the choice,
[30:54]not to have a child, to have a child,
[30:55]to, you know, enter into that space.
[30:57]It just is under disgust, I think,
[31:00]and you bring a really important voice to it.
[31:04]And I really liked just the way that you crafted that one.
[31:07]I thought it was great.
[31:08]So I'm excited for people to read that too.
[31:10]Thank you.
[31:11]And that's great to hear from someone who's a mom,
[31:13]because I was a little worried about how moms might take
[31:17]and especially the moms that I know personally,
[31:19]I'm like, I'm wondering how they're gonna feel about this.
[31:23]But look, I don't dislike moms, believe me.
[31:29]But yeah, I thought it was just important to sort of look at it,
[31:31]especially from the perspective of how pop culture
[31:34]really tends to talk about motherhood,
[31:38]or even parenthood just generally,
[31:40]not even just motherhood, but being a parent.
[31:41]So yeah, it's so valuable because our pop culture conversations
[31:46]even around motherhood, you know,
[31:48]once it's established, those are inadequate as well.
[31:51]So I think you're calling up, you know,
[31:54]what we can think critically about.
[31:55]So that's the best part of this book.
[31:56]It'll just make you think and make you laugh.
[31:59]And I think people are gonna love it.
[32:00]So thanks so much for being with me today.
[32:03]Thank you.
[32:03]Thank you so much for having, you know,
[32:05]writers like me having a space for us
[32:07]to talk about what we've written.
[32:09]So this is really great.
[32:10]Thank you.
[32:11]What a pleasure, thanks again.
[32:14]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[32:16]to Read Books.
[32:17]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[32:20]at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[32:23]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[32:25]and sign up for my virtual book club
[32:27]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[32:29]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[32:31]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[32:33]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[32:35]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.