Jenna Bush Hager, EVERYTHING BEAUTIFUL IN ITS TIME: Seasons of Love and Loss

[1:12]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books. This thirty minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, three hundred and sixty five days a year for about thirty minutes. Minutes. Am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and memoir. Our books are already out now. You can check it out on zippybooks.com. And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle features. That's at zippymag.com. We have classes at zippyclasses.com. And I recently opened a bookstore in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at 11th Street in Santa Monica. I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings. But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018. And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing. Enjoy. Today, I'm re releasing my episode with Jenna Bush Hager, who I've actually gotten to know more since this podcast released and even got to go to her Read with Jenna party, which was really one of the highlights of the year, meeting all of the authors that she's picked, for her, Read with Jenna picks. Anyway, she's amazing, and I am thrilled to re release her episode. She also was a huge supporter of the launch of Zibby's Bookshop and posted a whole video on her read with Jenna Instagram, and I just, couldn't be more grateful. I was so happy to talk to Jenna Bush Hager. I listened to her book, Everything is Beautiful in its Time, Seasons of Loss and Love on Audible. And I listened to her as I crisscrossed Central Park a million times. And by the time I talked to her, I felt like I knew her. Anyway, now I do. Jenna Bush Hager is the cohost of the fourth hour of the Today Show with Hoda and the founder of the Today Book Club Read with Jenna. She is the co author of the number one New York Times bestselling Anna's Story and two children's books, Our Great Big Backyard and Read All About It, which she wrote with her mother, Laura, as well as the number one New York Times bestsellers Sisters First. Oh, I read that too. Written with her sister Barbara in both adult and children's editions. She currently lives with her husband and three children in New York City. And by the way, her current book club pick is Rumon Alam's leave the world behind, and I just had him on my podcast too. So that episode should be right before or after this one. Welcome, Jenna. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books.

[3:44]Jenna Bush Hager: I love I love your podcast, and sometimes moms do have time to read. So I'm so happy to be here.

[3:51]Zibby Owens: Well, I feel like you and I are united in our desire to help other people read more. Like, we are I love shouting out to good books, and you pick all your books for all of America to enjoy. So I feel like we're on the same page. Definitely. So tell listeners more about everything beautiful in its time, which by the way, I listened to on all my walks with the dogs back and forth across the park, and it was so great. And I was, like, crying in Central Park, and it was just amazing. So you've been, like, coming with me and on my walks lately. Oh, I well, first of all, I have to tell you, recording that audiobook,

[4:25]Jenna Bush Hager: it was in the middle of the pandemic. And the book is about the thirteen months I lost my three remaining grandparents. So it was a really difficult time for me. And so recording the audiobook, Henry was like my husband was like, I came home with just the puffyest eyes. And I said the poor recording technician who, you know, was like, I got this assignment, had no idea he would be, you know, passing me Kleenexes. And he kept just saying, like, Do you need a minute? He was so kind and thoughtful that I said it was like reliving these moments that were difficult. But I wrote this book, I started writing it really for myself. I the night that my grandmother, Barbara, died, I was alone in my apartment in New York City. My husband was in Texas, and my sister, who at the time lived in in the city, was in Texas. And I just was watching the news, and one of the things that's really hard and interesting that she taught us was that losing somebody publicly is difficult. And so I turned on the news, and there were all these in memoriams and news reports about her. And at first, I just couldn't stop watching. And then I was overcome by the fact that, you know, obviously, they were just talking about her as Barbara Bush, the politician's wife. And there was so much about Argani that wouldn't be said that night. Just wouldn't. You know? There was no reason for it to be except for that's how I knew her, you know, and nobody knew her as intimately as we did. And so I turned off the news, and I wrote her a letter. And that was really the beginning of this book. And I I use writing a lot in my own life as a way to heal, as a way to process. So then I just decided to publish it, but it started off for me. Amazing.

[6:15]Zibby Owens: Well, that's how the best stuff comes out, right? It's like truthful from the heart, what you need, and turns out other people need it too. And isn't it true that you weren't there because you had strep throat, which you caught from your daughter, which is like a typical mom thing to have had happen. I mean, I went to the doctor. My dad was like, if you have strep throat, you can't go because obviously

[6:37]Jenna Bush Hager: my grandmother was dying, but also my grandpa was there. And I just knew I had it. My daughter Mila had had it the week before. And, of course, you know, moms are so close with our kids. I remember when when Mila got the stomach flu and I called my parents to tell her, you know, when I when she was a brand new baby that Henry and I were up all night cleaning up, you know, her her mess, my parents just laughed knowingly. They were like, oh, now now you will be getting things like the stomach bug that you just haven't had since you were in third grade yourself. But, yeah, I so I couldn't go to see her, but I did get to have a conversation with her before she passed away, which was profound and meaningful to me. Oh.

[7:22]Zibby Owens: And, you know, what you said about it being a public occurrence at the same time, you had a scene in your book where you're pushing Mila and holding Poppy and you're walking down the street and you got like a 100 text messages all at the same time. And you're like, oh no, it happened. And you had to like backtrack and figure it out. I could just so see you on like just like any other mom, you know, but here it is, like a huge public figure. Like, how do you, like, even reckon reconcile something like that when you have it coming at you in every direction?

[7:50]Jenna Bush Hager: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's so funny. And I probably just like any other mom. You know? And and we live in a place where we're walking everywhere around New York City, and there's just been so many moments where and I try I really do try to put my phone away and be especially when they were really little, like and they didn't get the fact that, like, you know, why I was holding this thing and looking here instead of in them. So that day, I had put my phone away. I played with them at the park. I'd watched them play. I hadn't been looking at anything. And then when we got up to leave, I checked the phone to see the time, and I had so many text messages from I was telling Hoda the other day, one from our old boss who was like, let me know if you need me. I mean, that was the first text, and I was like, why would why would I need anybody? And and there was and I my parents had tried to call, but I hadn't and my phone was away, but they my grandmother had said she was gonna seek comfort care, which I didn't even had really never even heard those words. I didn't have context for them. I didn't know what that meant. And so it was, you know, the five block home was very distracted. And I'm and I tried not to be that way, but I just was trying to figure out what was happening while I had one scooting child and one, you know, toddler in her stroller. And, you know, it's just I feel like moms, dads, parents, but maybe particularly moms, like, we just have to make it work. I mean, I remember when I had little kids and I got sick for the first time, I was like, wait. What's gonna happen? And it's like, you're not gonna be sick. You're gonna, like, parent no matter what. You have to parent through it all. And I think that's it's sometimes a, you know, exhausting part of it all. Like, when you're grieving, when you are hurting, I don't know so many people right now feel exhausted by everything. But, also, kids can be the most beautiful distraction. The things that they say I mean, my girls, like, healed me. What they said I know I have a baby boy, but I didn't have him at the time. But what they said about their great grandparents, all three of them who they lost who I lost. The little things that they said, which I wrote down in this book and I'm so happy because otherwise I would never remember. The little things they said and did, I think brought me this beautiful piece. They are so wise, our children are. And I think if you want to feel good, put your phone away, try to not think about the news of the day, and listen to what your kids say. Write it down because they say the most hilarious, beautiful things. And and I I know they've been a major comfort to me. And and not that I felt like you know, I hope I don't put that on them. That's one distinction I'm trying you know, I'm not like, how should I feel better? But just by listening to the funny, quirky, beautiful way they see the world, I feel like it can be a wonderful comfort.

[10:52]Zibby Owens: I completely agree. I went through a loss recently, and I have four kids, and they were so amazing because they can be supportive. Like, they'll come over and hug, but then they just say the crazy things that they say because they're kids. And I wasn't smart enough to write all of them down. But I know. Write them down when we get off. Write them down when we're done today because you'll wanna remember them later. No. You're so it's so true. I mean, grief is so unpredictable and, you know, you had so much so quickly, such a huge part of your family, and it's nice to have had that outlet at least. And of course, you're not using them for it. But yes, you just have to. You have to like you don't have the choice to like stay in bed and dwell in it. You can't as a parent. So you just have to like figure out how to make it all work at the same time. And even you, like you wrote in the book about, you know, having a meeting at work and then almost missing the bus pickup for your daughter. And, like, I feel like I've been in that same situation so many times, like, pick up.

[11:48]Jenna Bush Hager: I know. Why is it most stressful of all things? I mean, this particular day, and actually, it's so funny because the people that I was at this lunch meeting with, remember, like, I was just felt like I was on fire. It was the beginning of the year. I had a to do list. I was like, really I was wearing heels. Like, I never and, I mean, I wear heels every day at work, and then I take them off and I put on, they're thrown right here on the ground, these, like, boots, these clog mom boots. You know? Like, not those are cute in these. Thank you. I can run-in those. I cannot run-in high heeled knee high boots, but it was the beginning of January, and I was wearing them to prove to myself that this year was gonna be new. It was gonna be a different year. And, of course, I forgot Mila at the bus stop. So, I mean, the amount of times even in the short months that my girl months, weeks, feels like months. It's been a couple weeks since my kids have been in school. The amount of times I've been racing to the bus stop, I can't even tell I can't even tell you almost every day.

[12:50]Zibby Owens: I once, like, ran through the Central Park transverse, like, where the cars are to try to get to curriculum night on time, like, dressed up and all this stuff. And it's just so funny when you think about the city and all these, like, moms, like, running,

[13:04]Jenna Bush Hager: not just moms, but you know what mean? Like, all the running to get to places on time and, like, what we do to make it work here. You know? I know. And by the way, that was one of the I like that was in a moment where I really and I have them often, but really love New York City because I was running and, like, the UPS guy was like, you got it, girl. Totally. Another mom was like, I've been there. You know? It was just like to feel supported by your community in a moment of complete panic and shame is is merry. Yes. As opposed to driving like a maniac and, you know, all that risk. Exactly.

[13:37]Zibby Owens: You know, another part of your book that I really responded to is when you were talking about your aunt Dory and how she bought the dress for the funeral. Yeah. And your grandmother was more of a spendthrift, and she didn't want people to waste money on clothes. And she bought this special dress and then went to the mirror, the mirror fell on the ground. And she took it as a sign that her mom was upset, and she went and returned the dress. And you had such a beautiful message to her of what your interpretation of that was. Can you just share a little of Yeah.

[14:06]Jenna Bush Hager: You know, my grandmother was was a force, and she definitely was like, she took on things like private pain, things we didn't know, and she she was took it on. You know? She was an enforcer. We didn't necessarily know why she was the way she was. You know? She was private and and also very transparent at the same time. So I'm not sure if that makes sense. But but towards the end of her life, we were in Maine one summer, and I came down the stairs early. And I still picture her when I think about her in this little screened in porch. Early in the morning, she would write in her journal and write letters to her friends and and do, you know, a little bit of work, read the newspaper. And so when I think of her now, that's where I imagine her. But I came downstairs, and she it was early. It was before the sun came up, and she was in a particularly sharing way, sharing mood. And so she told me a lot about her growing up, and she grew up with a mother that would say things like, you know, oh, Martha, who was her sister, is the beauty, and you are the funny one. And then she her mother passed away in a car accident, and she had a stepmother that reinforced that. Luckily, she had a dad who thought she was brilliant and hilarious and told her she could do anything she ever wanted to. So but I think I do think, and I don't know. This is just my opinion. When I heard these stories, I felt her pain. Like and I just couldn't imagine as a mother myself and as somebody that's been raised by a woman who was gracious and loving and loved Barbara and I unconditionally and equally, even though we were so different and we were never compared, thank goodness for me. You know? I just couldn't imagine being that little girl that heard over and over, don't eat that, Barbara, you know, or and felt less than in her appearance. And my grandmother definitely had a way about her where she would sometimes make comments. You know? And I could tell, like, afterwards, she would feel like, why did I do that? But she would say things like, you know, she would comment on our clothes or maybe after freshman year in college when everybody gains a little bit, there would be a comment about how we would look. And I what I understood about her in that moment sitting, having that conversation about her childhood was that any of that any of that part of who she was was was really a reflection of how she was raised and that she was, in some ways, talking to that little girl. You know, she was she was saying to herself, oh, look. Why do you look like that? Like, she didn't mean it to us. And so when my aunt Doro bought this dress and thought, god, mom would think this is too expensive. I should take it back. And the mirror fell. And that was Doro's interpretation. I said, well, maybe she was thinking, stop worrying about the way you look. And and and the interesting thing about her is that she was a complicated woman. She didn't, in some ways, worry about the way she looked. She famously said, talking about your hair is boring. She let her hair go gray probably before she was even my age, in her lit thirties. But I do think deep down there was some pain that was never really resolved. And so when I I think she was telling my aunt who is beautiful and incredible, you know, don't don't waste your time on earth worrying about things like that, which is so hard because so many of us as women have that little voice in us that berates us for certain things. And I think what she was saying is don't waste your time looking in the mirror or criticizing yourself. I love that because it's like giving permission to stop sort of self flagellating in a way, you know, being so self critical. Yeah. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[20:47]Zibby Owens: I actually I recently started. In addition to this podcast, moms don't have time to lose weight because I feel like so many moms, like, with COVID in particular, have been like at home and losing you know, gaining weight and in their closets all upset and all the rest. And then as I was like focusing on that and and listening to your book, I like sat at my computer and then I saw that now you're doing Move With Jenna at 11:00 on Oh, yeah. On The Today Show. I thought this amazing.

[21:09]Jenna Bush Hager: I'm doing move with Jenna. I'm not the one that's actually working now, but, yes, we are doing it. I mean, I always like to move for mental health. Like, I I like to go for long walks. Hoda and I've been doing outdoor classes here in the city right after work. Otherwise, it's hard to go like, once you get home and you're with the kids, and I have a new baby who's always home, like, forget it. You know? Once I see his little face, it's hard to motivate to get to go away from him. And so I always think it's important to move. Granted, I will tell you that I did the show from home on Zoom for two months, three months. And when you're at home on Zoom, like, you're wearing sweatpants on the bottom. You don't have to zip up a dress. And all of a sudden, the world comes back, and you're like, woah. Wow. That cacio e pepe I've been cooking from Joanna Gaines cookbook is really caught up with. But you're right. It's like it's best to not dwell you know, just do things that make you feel good. If you do that, you know, then hopefully the COVID fifteen, the COVID nineteen, as I'd like to say, will come off. Yes.

[22:14]Zibby Owens: So tell me a little bit more about your writing. When do you like to write? When where do you do it? Is it like in your bed at night or are

[22:20]Jenna Bush Hager: me give me a visual here. I'm a morning writer for sure. And it's tricky because I wake up soup I mean, I work in morning television, so I'm already waking up early. So for this book in particular, once I decided know, I I always write in a journal. One thing that my husband and I do, which we brought back today, although he hasn't texted me back, we didn't need to do it for a while because we were never away from each other, never apart. But now that I've started coming back to work, we text each other three, like, really specific things that we're grateful for because I like waking up that way. I like having my mind, like, focused on the really good instead of the bad. And I also like sharing those little insights with him and having him share his with me. They're not about each other necessarily, although sometimes they are. And so I always write in a journal in the morning. But for this book, when I was writing writing, I would set the alarm for about four in the morning. I would write in our office slash guest room slash playrooms. You know, it's like the New York's where you have nowhere to write except for this one little den where I wouldn't wake up the kids and Henry. And I so I would I did that at least three days a week. And then right after the show at eleven, I would go over to my office at 30 Rock, and I would try to just continue for an hour or two before my mind had nothing left to give. I read at night. I read for for pleasure and for fun every night before I go to bed. That I try but I want it to be fun. I don't want it to be work. And so, yeah, I cannot write at night. I couldn't I can't really do much at night. I mean, it's like I I have this much left to give because my mornings are so big. And then by the time the kids go to bed, I just have, you know, an hour or two with Henry to try to decompress, and then that's that's it. Yeah. I have so much respect when people are like, yeah. Let's, like, go meet up at this time, or why don't you get do all your emails late? And I'm like, I am fried. Yeah. I agree. And I also think even, like, any sort of arguments, any sort of anything that's not great happens in those hours So true. Where your rope is done. You know? It shortens just a tiny fuse.

[24:34]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. And tell me about the reading for read with Jenna. How do you pick your books?

[24:39]Jenna Bush Hager: Well, it's been such a really fun part of my job because I just love to read. So I read about I'm reading now for February. So I read January and February, I read about six months in advance and which is so fun. I mean, I love that I get to get some of these books and get the forms and read them and and be one of the first, like, maybe besides the editors and other people that have book clubs and, obviously, the indie bookstores owners who get to read this work. I don't know. It feels really like a privilege. We look for books that are debut authors. In many cases, we want new voices, voices that may not always get the attention. We like diverse voices, voices from all over the world, our country, people that look different and have different experiences, and then just really books that move us, books that move me, books that I stay up late into the night reading, books that I know will inspire because I've been in a book club, you know, throughout my life in different iterations and different towns. I know what will inspire really cool, wonderful conversations. And so that's really what goes into it, and it's just so much fun. You have to come to my book club. I started a virtual book club. I have, like, a thousand members. Anyway, you should come. It's really fun. You choose I'm looking around my office, but I don't know if you've read leave the world behind. Yes. I just had Rahman on my podcast yesterday. I really loved it. Rahman. I hope you told him I said hi. You probably didn't, but he is brilliant. He is so awesome. And did you read this with your book club?

[26:14]Zibby Owens: We haven't yet, but you know what? We should do it. We hardly have any mail. Have you read it? I read I read it myself, but I haven't assigned it to my book club yet. But I think that's It's a really great so, so good, isn't it? Yeah. Maybe we will do that. That's a great idea. If you ever need help, call me up. I'm happy to be part of a book club one month. Me Do it. Yeah. Maybe the two of you can like do it together or something. I don't know. That would neat. I mean, I'm sure you've interviewed him. I mean, anyway, that would be awesome. So you have, like, so much going on. What's coming next for you? You were, like, churning out books and kids and TV shows and all the rest. Kids.

[26:47]Jenna Bush Hager: With each book, there's a new kid. No. Nothing is next for me. I'm just going to slow down a little bit. And, I mean, obviously, the show is on every single day, which is so much fun, and it's been a really wonderful distraction in this world that we live in to sit next to somebody that I admire as much as Hoda and have conversations that feel light and, I hope, filled with goodness and positivity. That's so awesome. And I think what it's taught me is, like, before the pandemic, we were in a studio with lights and people and music and a DJ and Oprah. You know? And it was, like, the pinnacle of where we wanted the show to go. And then all of a sudden, was at home on his ring light with my phone and Hoda on FaceTime, and it didn't matter. Like, I in some ways, I mean, I miss obviously, I miss being close to her. I missed with our team. I missed the the audience and the the studio. But regardless, I enjoyed it, and I enjoyed our conversations. And I think what this has shown me is that it's stripped down to what's really important. I'm like, thank goodness she and I have a really like each other and and have fun talking to each other and have a you know, otherwise, it would have been really difficult. And so I think it's proven really to all of us that it's stripped things down and only the most important things matter. And so I feel so lucky that even, you know, with the ring light and a phone and that separated

[28:21]Zibby Owens: by distance, it was still such a pleasure to do the show every single day. And so funny that you like didn't even think you wanted this job to begin with and that like your wasn't it your grandfather who was like, well, maybe we should watch the show, which is like

[28:34]Jenna Bush Hager: the most obvious and also, like, it's a humiliation that I was that that wasn't something that would have come into play, but I was a teacher. So he was like, so do you ever see this thing they call the Today Show? And I was like, nope. I'm at school by seven in the morning, but we have we watched it together, and they gave me some great advice. And my grandmother was like, you just always take the meeting. And I think that that's that's you know, even though I make some I just wanna be home, as we said, in my pajamas by 08:08PM. I think that advice of always taking the meeting, being ready for whatever life's gonna throw at you next is is really good advice. So it's always take the meeting, but try to schedule it in the morning. Exactly.

[29:16]Zibby Owens: Okay. Yeah. What other advice might you have for aspiring authors? Mhmm.

[29:22]Jenna Bush Hager: I mean, I just think write. Write all the time. And the other advice, which is so like, this was the advice of my fourth grade teacher, miss Cunningham in Dallas, Texas. She said, you are a good writer. And nobody had really told me I mean, I have a sister who is an academic who got into every Ivy League school she applied to. She missed one question on the SAT. She's brilliant. And I struggled, like, in math. My dad would sit around the kitchen table and be like, okay. Let's get to multiplication. But I to have somebody put that faith in me, you know, like, oh, this is where you're gonna go. This is what you're interested in, and you have talent in this. I will never forget it. And what she said to me, the advice is, read, read, read. Good writers, brilliant writers. And it's so true. I mean, now I get to and you get to, I'm sure, talk to all of these brilliant authors who I get like, I have crushes on. I'm Same so way. I get so sometimes I even get nervous. I'm like, my god. Nicholas Fox. You know? Yep. I know. And by the way, a friend asked me, they were like, who's been the best? And I'm like, oh, this person, Kevin Wilson, so good. Anne Patchett's my good friend. I love Emma Straub. Like, all of them are kind and generous of time and of talent and brilliant. And the all of them share the same quality, which is that they love books. They read incessantly. They read everything. And so that's my advice is to read constantly because, I mean, it makes sense. Right? Like, if you wanna be a great artist, you study art. You study the great artists. So if you wanna be a great writer, you study the the beautiful pieces of writing that we that we get to read. And I just feel like I'm happiest in my bed with a book, possibly a sleeping child. The child needs to be asleep though because otherwise, as you know, moms don't have time to read. And if there's a cat thrown in there, like, that's it. That's my very perfect day. Maybe if if you believe in the afterlife, that's where I'll be in a bed with a cat, a sleeping child, and a book. I might be there with a dog.

[31:29]Zibby Owens: Maybe with some chocolate on my bedside table. Say a cheese plate. Add some cheese plate and a glass of wine, and then there we go. Yeah. That that's that that's pretty much is it. That's all we really need in life. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for coming on mom's no time to read bugs. Thanks for all your great books and entertainment and all the great work you do and for highlighting all the authors, so many of whom I've had on my podcast and who I know. It's so awesome.

[31:55]Jenna Bush Hager: You know, it's amazing. Well, I love talking with you, and I love your podcast, and and I love that you're trying to get moms reading. Trying. You know? One book to talk. Thank you

[32:06]Zibby Owens: so much. It's been nice to meet you. Thank you. You too. Okay. Bye, everybody. See you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.