Natalie MacLean, WINE WITCH ON FIRE: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much
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[1:03]Natalie McLean is the author of Wine Witch on Fire, rising from the ashes of divorce, depression,
[1:09]defamation, and drinking too much.
[1:11]This episode was guest hosted by Julie Chavez, who is the host of Ask a Librarian podcast.
[1:17]And also the author of the upcoming Zippy Books title, everyone but myself.
[1:23]Natalie McLean's previous books, Red, White, and Drunk All Over, a wine soap journey from
[1:27]grape to glass, and unquenchable, a tipsy quest for the world's best bargain wines for
[1:32]each selected as one of Amazon's best books of the year.
[1:35]She was named the world's best drinks journalist at the World Food Media Awards and
[1:39]has won four James Beard Foundation journalism awards.
[1:42]She's the only person to have won both the M.F.K. Fisher Distinguished Writing Award
[1:47]from the James Beard Foundation and the M.F.K. Fisher Award for Excellence in Culinary
[1:51]Writing from Laidam Deskofge International.
[1:55]Natalie is the host of Unreserved Wine Talks selected as one of the best drinks podcasts
[1:59]by the New York Times.
[2:00]She offers online food and wine pairing classes, where she connects personally with those
[2:04]around the planet, who share her passion for wine at Natalie McLean.com.
[2:09]Natalie is going to be doing a wine pairing with our book for August Wine People by Michelle
[2:14]Wilgen.
[2:15]So from Michelle Wilgen's book club, Natalie will be doing a wine pairing.
[2:18]It should be lots of fun.
[2:19]Hi Natalie, welcome to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[2:22]I'm so happy to talk to you today.
[2:24]I am so thrilled to be here with you, Julie.
[2:26]Thank you.
[2:27]Oh, it's my pleasure.
[2:29]I really, I just finished your book last night, and it is Wine Witch on Fire, rising
[2:36]from the ashes of divorce, defamation, and drinking too much.
[2:40]I really enjoyed this memoir, and there was so much in it, tell me a little bit about
[2:45]the story behind this book.
[2:47]Sure.
[2:48]So, you know, from the title, Wine Witch on Fire, you might think it's about an angry
[2:53]woman who drinks a lot of wine and owns a lot of cats, but it's not.
[2:58]It does have humor and a happy ending, spoiler alert, despite all the dismal deeds in
[3:03]that subtitle, but it is the story of one woman, that would be me, how I resurrected my life
[3:09]and career in the glamorous but sexist wine industry.
[3:13]And so my no good, terrible, bad vintage starts with my husband of 20 years asking for
[3:20]a divorce, which kind of caught me out of the blue.
[3:25]And then the year ends with a mob of rivals coming after my job, and that's the defamation
[3:31]part.
[3:32]And so I really had to dig deep that year to find the inner resources and strength, you
[3:40]know, to reconnect with the vineyards that once brought me joy.
[3:44]That's why I started writing about wine, and the friends who had sustained me, I kind
[3:49]of wasn't talking to them about what was going on, and then my own belief in second
[3:53]chances.
[3:54]I call wine, which on fire, a true coming of middle age story about transforming your life
[4:00]and finding love along the way.
[4:02]Hmm.
[4:03]I love that coming of middle age, because I feel like as women, there are so many more
[4:08]cycles and revolutions in our lives than we have thought about before, right?
[4:14]So that's exactly like there's lots of stories about the all-genu and then the lion and
[4:19]winter.
[4:20]And then there's this big gap in the middle of four middle aged, especially women's stories.
[4:24]And I think more of them need to be told.
[4:26]I couldn't agree more.
[4:27]I really enjoyed that about your book because you do.
[4:31]It's such a different coming of age tale when you have more experience behind you than
[4:36]when you're young.
[4:37]So I really, there was a lot of insight there that I liked.
[4:41]So you came out of this time, what made you decide to write this book?
[4:46]Well, for the first five years, I thought I can't even look at the notes.
[4:51]This happened 10 years ago, but the themes and the issues are almost more relevant today.
[4:57]But for the first five years, I had to lock it away.
[5:00]But the story kept ricocheting around in my head and I thought I have to let this out
[5:04]even as a private exercise in making sense of what had happened.
[5:08]And then as the years went by, I was hearing more and more stories from women in the
[5:12]wine industry, but also women, friends in other industries like sport and tech and finance.
[5:19]And they were the same stories.
[5:20]The specifics, of course, were different, but the feelings and the themes and the issues
[5:24]were the same.
[5:25]So I thought, well, could my story help?
[5:28]I don't know, like it's such a different life, but I was inspired by memoirs Glen and
[5:33]Doyle who said, right from a scar, not an open wound.
[5:37]And then the next natural question is, well, why write about it, you know, when all the healing
[5:42]is done?
[5:43]Yeah.
[5:44]But poet Sean Daugherty, I think, has the answer.
[5:46]And he said, because somewhere someone out there right now has a wound in the exact shape
[5:52]of your words.
[5:54]And that really gave me goosebumps and I thought, well, you know, even if someone hasn't
[5:58]gone through a divorce, they've probably felt loneliness or the, you know, the longing
[6:02]for love, they may not have been attacked by an online mob, but they've probably felt
[6:07]some sort of fear for the future or career disappointment.
[6:11]And I think when we read a memoir that can put words to feelings that we've had ourselves,
[6:17]maybe pushed them away, when they can be articulated like that, I think that can be healing.
[6:22]I agree.
[6:24]And I think you did a really good job of describing a lot of the pieces even prior to your
[6:29]divorce in terms of feeling lonely in a relationship, right?
[6:33]That there's a sort of element there that you were figuring out as you went.
[6:39]And I think that's really true.
[6:40]Those are beautiful words from that poet because it's true.
[6:44]We do have, there is a sense of, am I really doing anything by telling this story?
[6:49]And it's an active faith to tell it and believe that it will be of service to someone.
[6:55]I know.
[6:56]And we hear the words, oh, you know, memoirs always say, I want to share this so people
[7:01]feel less alone or to be seen and to be heard, but you know, I had to dig down to what
[7:05]does that mean, you know, does it really help someone?
[7:09]But I think it can because you're going through somebody else's story.
[7:14]So there's a safety element there that it's not all of your hot buttons or your specifics.
[7:20]But just seeing how someone can, you know, experience some of the same feelings you've
[7:25]had walk through the flames and come out on the other side stronger, wiser, fiercer.
[7:32]That to me, you know, is what a memoir can do.
[7:35]Yeah, a real element of hope that, okay, this person survived these pieces and came out
[7:41]on the other side and I can too.
[7:43]And it is interesting how memoir is so personal until it's not because as soon as you write
[7:48]it and send it out, it's, these readers are now consuming it, but they are going to read
[7:54]it through their lens and they'll take whatever resonates with them.
[7:58]So yeah, that makes total sense, ooh, I love the way you put that.
[8:02]I wanted to talk to you a little bit about, okay, so you were, how did this book position
[8:06]yourself in your mind because you're two previous books, you know, kind of are humorous
[8:13]about drinking too much and all the things.
[8:15]And I like that you chose to say drinking too much instead of, you know, addiction, especially
[8:21]or alcoholism or, and you know, another term, I thought that was really good.
[8:24]But how did this position for you because you were kind of funny about drinking too
[8:28]much in your other books?
[8:30]And then now, because it was red wine and drunk and unquenchable, correct?
[8:35]Exactly.
[8:36]Red wine and drunk all over, but yes.
[8:37]And drunk all over.
[8:38]That's right.
[8:39]I knew I was missing something.
[8:40]I got stuck.
[8:41]But so those are your first two and then now were this.
[8:43]So how did that, how did that feel for you?
[8:46]So I like that you picked up on the fact that I used drinking too much and not, as you
[8:51]say, addiction or drunkenness would have been a tidy or subtitle, right?
[8:55]Yes.
[8:56]And drunkenness.
[8:58]But I think, you know, I love memoirs about, like I consumed, I binge read memoirs like
[9:05]Merry Cars and so on, about having a substance abuse disorder.
[9:12]But I think, especially post pandemic, I think what's more relatable now is that we're
[9:17]all kind of on a spectrum if we haven't given up drinking completely and some of us need
[9:21]to do that.
[9:22]We, you know, we go up and down, progress is forward and backwards in terms of drinking
[9:27]and how much we're drinking, how much we'd like to be drinking, the way we moderate
[9:32]or manage our drinking.
[9:34]And so I really dove into that in the book and I think, well, I know that early readers
[9:39]are saying, they really love being a fly on the wall during my therapy sessions as I
[9:44]kind of wrestled with, hey, I'm, I drink for a living, you know, I'm a wine writer.
[9:49]Do I just walk away from all of this?
[9:52]You know, my father was an alcoholic, it runs in my family, so there's that kind of
[9:56]fear and concern.
[9:57]But, you know, my, my own one.
[10:00]I think that might be punitive.
[10:03]Let's see if we can focus on harm reduction first and some techniques.
[10:08]And so while this isn't a self-help book,
[10:10]I share a lot of tips, again,
[10:12]that have really resonated with early readers
[10:15]about moderating my own consumption as a professional.
[10:18]And so things like what was the thought
[10:20]just before the thought that said, I need a drink?
[10:23]Mm.
[10:24]And was it about stress or relaxation, enjoyment?
[10:27]And if it was about stress, you know,
[10:30]could I find a different way to handle that?
[10:32]You know, go for a walk, take a bath, watch a show.
[10:35]Just that pause sometimes can break that chain of immediately.
[10:39]I want to drink.
[10:40]Mm-hmm.
[10:41]So that's why it's drinking too much.
[10:43]And you're right, you know, my first two books were all,
[10:46]I used my own over-drinking or drinking habits
[10:50]as fodder for humor.
[10:53]Mm-hmm.
[10:54]And now I'm using my over-drinking habits as I hope,
[10:59]feel for discussion on over-drinking, especially among women.
[11:04]I mean, during the pandemic, you know,
[11:06]women's over-drinking sword compared to the general population.
[11:10]And I think there's a lot of contributing factors to that.
[11:13]So I think it's time to have that discussion,
[11:16]both in my industry, you know,
[11:18]the wine industry has the highest rate of substance abuse
[11:21]of all professions.
[11:22]We don't talk about it.
[11:23]But also more broadly.
[11:25]Mm-hmm.
[11:26]You're so right.
[11:27]It's such a tricky subject, too,
[11:30]because you wrote in the book about how you would read these memoirs
[11:35]of people with substance abuse disorders.
[11:37]And it's easy to think,
[11:39]oh, I'm not having a vodka soda at 8 a.m.
[11:43]So I'm going to go, right?
[11:45]Exactly.
[11:46]And so it's tough to have an honest conver