Dave Eggers, WE BECAME JAGUARS

[1:10]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books. This thirty minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, three hundred and sixty five days a year for about thirty minutes. I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and memoir. Our books are already out now, and you can check it out on zippybooks.com. And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle features. That's at zippymag.com. We have classes at zippyclasses.com. And I recently opened a bookstore in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at 11th Street in Santa Monica. I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings. But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018. And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing. Enjoy. Today's weekend re release is with Dave Eggers. We're nearing the end of our weekend re release series, but how can you miss hearing about Dave Eggers from Dave Eggers? So cool. I hope you enjoy our chat together. Doctor. Dave Eggers is the award winning and bestselling author of many books, including The Circle, The Monk of Mocha, Her Right Foot, Lifters, and The Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius. He is founder of McSweeney's, an independent publishing company based in San Francisco that produces books, the humor website, and a journal of new writing, McSweeney's Quarterly Concern. Eggers is also the co founder of eight twenty six Valencia, a youth writing center which has inspired dozens of other centers worldwide. Today, we'll be talking about his new children's book, We Became Jaguars, which is amazing. So enjoy my conversation with this literary legend. Welcome, Dave. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books. Good to be here. I'm thrilled to talk to you about so much of the amazing work that you do to support other writers, younger writers, and just the amazing philanthropy that you're involved in. But also, We Became Jaguars, your latest children's book, which is just amazing and also a perfect gift for Mother's Day with this whole grandmother, you know, kneeling on the floor playing games with her grandchild. So so maybe we could just talk about this book first and how this book came to be. Well,

[3:37]Dave Eggers: you know, I don't know even know if I have an origin story for this one. This one just sorta came out of the blue, which sometimes happens with picture books in particular. Sometimes it just starts with a phrase, which, like, in this case, it was the title, and I just wrote it down. I always start by writing things down on just sheets of copy paper, usually that I keep all over the house and by the bed. And and I just wrote down, we became Jaguars and woke up with that next to me by the bed with those words. And I and then I went from there. What would it be like if, you know, a little boy and his grandmother pretended or actually became jaguars? And I think, you know, I didn't have grandparents who were, you know, spry or with us too long when I was a kid, but I do know that, you know, my kids have the benefit of having very active and engaged and incredible grandparents. The adventures that they go on with them are completely apart from what we all, the rest of us do as a family. And I think that there's something really sacred and sometimes very mysterious even about those adventures with grandparents. And so this sort of takes

[4:54]Zibby Owens: that as its starting point. I love that. That's that's awesome. And also, you had this edited by your editors in progress. Tell me a little bit more about

[5:05]Dave Eggers: the young editors project as part of eight twenty six National and all the other awesome things that you do. Well, you know, this is actually this grew out of a little project that we call the Hawkins project, which is sort of it works with schools and teachers and young authors, and and we collaborate with different eight two six centers around the country and then centers that are like our we started this center here in San Francisco where I am right now. I'm across the street from eight two six Valencia, which is a writing and tutoring center in the Mission District Of San Francisco. And now there's like maybe 60 or 70 centers around the world that are kind of based on that model where you have a whimsical theme. In our case, it's a pirate store. So the whole place looks like a pirate ship and a pirate store. And then it's sort of a mysterious front for a writing and tutoring center that supports youngers writers as young as six. And so at one point, you know, I I would read works in progress to kids for the last, you know, ten, fifteen years. And then we sort of decided to make it a little bit more of a formal, not formal, but more of a expanded program that we call the Young Editors Project. And so a lot of other picture book writers like Sean Harris and Mac Barnett and Bethany Mergia and have, you know, they they give manuscripts in progress that to us that we then send to teachers and classrooms around the country and around the world. And then the kids in the class will comment and say, oh, I really like this, or I wish there was more of that. The comments are always very generous and encouraging. They're very forgiving and enthusiastic editors. And then every so often, they'll say, you know, what about what about this? Have you ever thought about that? And sometimes these suggestions end up helping the authors with a with a next draft or with the final draft. And I just like that. I I don't know about you, but as a kid, you grow up assuming that all authors lived hundreds of years ago and that you'd never encounter one in the real world. But when I was a kid, I got to meet well, sort of meet Gwendolyn Brooks, who was the poet laureate at the time. And she, you know, I grew up in Illinois. She was a well known author from Chicago. To see that she was a living person who was also in our textbooks and everything, it meant a lot and kind of collapsed that space between being a young kid and then also thinking like, oh, there's actually authors in the world that are, you know, visible and reachable and engaged. And so this is a way where kids can see, feel part of the process and get in touch a little bit with authors that they might know. And then their names are always included in the book that they advised on. And so we're, you know, we're hoping to keep expanding the program and make it sort of a staple of a lot of picture books that each one of them might have fifteen, twenty names of young editors who helped bring that book to fruition.

[8:29]Zibby Owens: Wow. That must just be the most amazing feeling for those kids to see their names in there. I saw the long list at the end, and it's just the coolest. What it how much you're changing their lives and their point of view. I feel like when I was younger, I I had a pen pal relationship with one author. And the first time she wrote me back, I was, like, shocked. I was holding this piece of blue paper with her script handwriting on it, and I was just like, oh my gosh. A real writer wrote me back. I couldn't believe it. So Who was it? Her name was Zibby O'Neill, which I thought was amazing because I didn't know anybody else in the world. Yeah. Well, that was why you were attracted to her work a little bit. Right? Or maybe why your parents got you her book? Yeah. It was. And, anyway, she wrote a book called The Language of Goldfish, which I just loved. And then we kept in touch for all these years, and then eventually she took me to tea at the plaza, and it was like the highlight of my childhood. You know, I always think I'm sitting here at the McSweeney's offices and haven't been here that much since the pandemic. But, know, I get mail here, and I'm sitting here answering mail, or I was this morning before talking to you. And that's my favorite thing in the world. It's just that personal connection. And if somebody writes to you and says that, you know, a book meant to meant something to them, I think people I only get mail via

[9:42]Dave Eggers: paper mail. Like if you if somebody I love that process. I don't have a public email address because I I'm just not good at email. But I love writing letters and getting letters in the mail. And I remember that too. I wrote I used to write to the Lego company. My friend, Dan Carter and I were Lego obsessed. And we would once a month write letters the Lego company in Enfield, Connecticut with ideas about how they, you know, what they could do next. And we always had ideas for Lego sets. And there was a woman there that wrote back to us every time. She was in the public relations department, I'm sure. But she had beautiful stationary and beautiful envelopes in it. And she'd always put little extra things in there like, I don't know, information about upcoming LEGO things. And to have that connection, but to have a human on the other end of something that you admired so much actually take the time to recognize you as a human, right? Say, you know, I got your letter, I read it, here's my It just was, I kept all of them. I still have them all. I think there's like 12 letters that we got and I have them in a scrapbook and it meant the world. And so I think having that sort of lifeline or having that connection, I think it means a lot to the authors too, to have somebody on the other end of what you do. Because unlike a musician that's, you know, playing a concert or where you're hearing from people immediately, very often writing is kind of solitary and you're not there the moment that somebody listens to, you know, read your work, you're not sitting over their shoulder and you get the benefit of them, you know, responding in real time. And so that, those letters mean a lot. And sometimes we authors are just as eager for that connection as are the readers. So I'm glad that you reached out to your fellow Zippy. And I always tell everybody to write letters because you won't always get an answer. Sometimes somebody is in a stage of life where they can't answer. And I've been there years ago where I just fell behind with mail and I couldn't get back to people, but chances are that person will write you back and that connection is complete. And that's what keeps us going in some cases. I think you should take those 12 Lego letters and make those into another

[12:11]Zibby Owens: children's book. Yeah.

[12:14]Dave Eggers: I wish they're in deep storage now. I don't I I wonder what they said. A little bit of it was like a little formal, like, well, we can't accept your ideas, Dave and Dan, because we have our own Lego creators, but and then we we turn around and send them another idea the next month, you know, like, would not get the message. But, you know, so I don't know if they would be they don't necessarily have a compelling narrative so much, but they personalized to us. And she eventually would say, good to hear from you again, Dan and Dave. As I said before, but, you know, she was very kind. I wish I could remember her name off the top of my head, but I do still have them somewhere.

[12:56]Zibby Owens: Alright. I will I will let you just keep coming up with your own book ideas then. Yeah. I'll just leave that. Well, you're welcome. I'll keep I'll

[13:05]Dave Eggers: keep listening and take that into consideration, Zibby. Thank you very much.

[13:10]Zibby Owens: Anytime. Anytime. Speaking of coming up with ideas, you have written so many books and children like, so many things. You just and you've started McSweeney's to help and other people have written things, and you have ideas all the time. And, yes, your scraps of paper and and what you said earlier is part of the process. But what else helps you come up with the ideas and and decide which ones

[13:35]Dave Eggers: are worth your time pursuing? Well, I'll stick with picture books for now. You know, what's funny is it is a process where, and I know that a lot of your listeners probably have picture books in mind. And a good friend of mine, I went to high school with a writer named Amy Krauss Rosenthal who passed away a few years ago. But we went to high school together and then I think her kids were teenagers and we used to publish her at an old magazine called Mike Magazine. So I've been a fan of her work forever since we were in our twenties together. And then a little later on, started writing picture books and she was just so gifted at it. And she's written so many classics and they have, you know, obviously reached a really wide audience still. I remember picking her brain about it because I was, after she had published a number of books and I was always wanted to write picture books and I, you know, when she was out in San Francisco one time, we took a long walk and I was like, so how do you do this? And who do you reach out to? And what did, you know, and she really clarified that a lot of it is like that alchemy between your idea, how it comes together on the page, how an agent might respond to it, and then how a publisher and an editor at that publisher responds to it. Anyone that's aspiring to write a book has to realize that it's a very human process every step of the way. And I've written picture books that no editors responded to. And that's because it's a very particular alchemy. I might think it's, you know, really good idea, but then the editor has her particular taste and things that, you know, my editors are all women. And so I'm just thinking of Taylor Norman who edits my books at Chronicle and Andrea Cooper, who's at Little Brown and, you know, they, I might send them something and they say, oh, this is for me or this isn't for me or this still needs work. Or those gently somehow indicate it doesn't have merit. And I think that as long as you realize that it really is a personal and idiosyncratic process that you have to perfectly match up, you know, that idea with the execution, with the editor. And when it all comes together, something really nice can happen. And in this case, Taylor Norman, my editor Chronicle, really liked We Became Jaguars, and then she helps improve it and shape it. And then we find an artist, in this case, you know, Woodrow White, had not illustrated a picture book before. He was just a fine artist that I loved his work when I'd seen it online. And we asked him if he'd ever considered doing it. And he took it on and then just made this gorgeous bunch of illustrations. And I think I always just want to, because I've been on the publishing side for so long, I always want to tell people that you have to be really patient. You have to be very flexible and you really have to be very understanding that the people that are on the other end, the publishing side, on the agent side, they're all humans. They're all really busy. They're all trying to put out books and it's not like a Kinko service, you know, you send in your manuscript and you get a book back in two days, you know, and they should know or immediately respond to whatever you think is a finished product. I think it's much more idiosyncratic and much more personal than people often imagine. Does that make sense? Of course.

[17:27]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I think the acceptance of different projects obviously is personal and has so many factors. Whereas if you're the person writing it, all you're thinking about is your creation. Right? You're not you don't realize that the person might have 70 different picture books sitting in front of them, and they've already committed to these, and, you know, they have to rush home for this and, you know yes. Of course. I think it they it's so much in life. You don't realize what's going on in the other end

[17:53]Dave Eggers: of of your hopes and dreams. Yeah. I I feel like more so than in a lot of fields, I don't know if the submitter always understands that the person on the other side is almost in the exact same spot. They're sitting at home. You know? They've got a lot of tall stack of manuscripts. They can only publish probably eight books a year, 12 or whatever. And they've got a thousand options, you know, to do it. And so I, when in the picture book realm, because they don't, you know, it's I don't know. I have I have far more ideas than ever get to print. And it's up to the editors to sort of help sort out and find the best ones and save me from my bad ideas, I think, which is a personal I have a lot of gratitude toward them for

[18:45]Zibby Owens: gently helping sift through and find the ones that are worthy. Well, I feel like it makes it will make other people feel better to know that even your ideas get passed on occasionally and that perhaps it's not just them being rejected.

[19:01]Dave Eggers: More than occasionally, I'd say two thirds of the picture book notions I have are are passed on for sure. And then there's the ones that sometimes you're just looking for somebody to I I you know, you might take it 80% of the way and you say, what do you think of this so far? And if there's polite silence, you know that maybe you could direct your energy somewhere else. And so to me, to finish something, I usually need somebody's enthusiasm a little bit. And so those last, you know, bunch of drafts are it becomes more fun and more easy to do it when you have somebody on the receiving end who's who's ready for it and has already expressed, you know, some kind of affection for it and can urge you over the finish line, I guess. I actually have a picture book coming out from Penguin Random House next year. I'm very excited. It's called Princess Charming. Oh, good. Congratulations. Isn't it a fun process, especially when the illustrator starts sending you art back? It's the coolest. You can only compare it to sort of Christmas morning or your birthday or whatever holiday is meaningful to you because it's just when you open that email and you see, you know, some new creation based on your words. It's just indescribable,

[20:16]Zibby Owens: don't you think? Yeah. Have they already started illustrating yours? They have. And I got, like, two of the character drawings, and I was so excited. I printed them out, and I gave copies to I have four kids. So I, like, printed them out, one for each kid, and everybody was running around holding the copies. That's so great. I was really How old are your kids? Six, seven, and then I have twins that are almost 14. They're they're 13. Wow. Yeah.

[20:39]Dave Eggers: Wow. What fun for them. Right? Yes. Yes. I always included you know, I always picked my kids' brains and had them read early drafts. You know, there's such a supportive audience, you know, like they, maybe my kids were just polite, but you know, they were always like, yeah. You know, I mean, and that's one of the things we used to have kids at eight twenty six Valencia review movies for the San Francisco Chronicle because I always thought kids should review kids movies. I just don't know if there's any point in adults reviewing kids movies. It's just a total disconnect. And these kids would come in after school here to get, you know, to do writing and tutoring. And then they, we would send them to screenings of movies that they would get to see with their families for free. And then the Chronicle would run five, six of these reviews together. And they were all uniformly glowing, you know, because they'd seen the movie for free with their family. They get to see it before other people. And generally speaking, kids are just so full of wonder and awe and enthusiasm for everything that they are sort of in a way the best audience because they're like, whatever movie that we think isn't the best kids movie ever, they think is the best movie that was ever made, which is always the last movie they saw was pretty much the best movie ever made. And so I think there's something about their unbridled and unsullied enthusiasm that I think authors should avail themselves of. And if you're not sure about something showing it to kids, I think we'll give you that shot in the arm. I don't know if you find that to be the same thing with yours. I think focus groups are always a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Especially focus groups at home where they count on you for food and shelter. So there's like an exchange there that they know that if they don't support mom's book, maybe

[22:41]Zibby Owens: they don't eat. Yeah. I should really tie it That's just a joke. Tie it to the allocation of of Robux, which is sort of, you know, sweeping the family at the moment. Robux? What are Robux? Oh my gosh. So Roblox is this online video game thing where in the it's it's almost like a it has a ton of games under the banner of Roblox, and you can pick which ones you want, and you have your own person who's your character. And it's essentially like virtual reality of sorts. Like, you're walking through, and you've gotta and you can see your friends who are also so if my two kids are on two iPads, they meet up in the game with their little personas. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. This is sounding familiar. The company actually just went public last week, and I was, like, looking at the newspaper. And there was this full page ad about, like, congratulations on Roblox going public. And I was like, you're kidding. Like, my whole life is Roblox. So anyway

[23:32]Dave Eggers: but, yeah, this is why my kids don't read enough clearly. But, anyway Well, it's a weird time. I think I hope when the pandemic's over, we can sort of get back to a little bit more of a balance where they don't they're not required to be on screens as much as they are right now. Yeah. That would be nice. But it's the way. It's the only way, obviously, right now. And teachers have done an incredible job of, you know, reengineering everything to work through screens. But I do feel like it's out of balance for sure. The kids are sort of on, you know, required to sit in one place and be on screens for so much of the day. And I hope that when it's over, we can recalibrate and make sure that they have enough quiet time away from screens to be able to find that sort of peace of mind that you need to be able to sit quietly with a book. And I, you know, grew up in a house where we had the TV on probably sixteen hours a day. And so I, it does alter the mind, a growing mind. And so I was only able to read if I was really isolated for a while. And because I think my brain had been, you know, sort of, you know, engineered to expect more diversion and more noise and more distraction and things going on, but to really read. And I, you know, I'll say this to any parents out there. Like for me, the first time I was able to sort of just read on my own was my freshman year in high school. Not the first time, I certainly read everything that we had to read in school. Anything they told me to read, read, but on my own, really for fun, we had a class in freshman year. It was like a class that was supposed to be for counseling, I guess. And if you weren't seeing your counselor that period, you just were sent to this little quiet room that was full of books and you had to sit on a pillow and read for that hour. So I pulled Frank Herbert's Dune off of the shelf. I'd never heard of it or anything about it, but and then I read. And and it it was because we had that isolated space, total no noise and nothing else to do, no other options but to read. That's what got me finally in that space where I could, you know, really read an adult novel for fun. And it's just to say for those of you out there, parents who, you know, have especially kids that are reluctant readers or are a little squirmy, have a hard time sitting still, just realize it takes quite a lot of isolation and downtime and quiet to really get in that place where that kid can shut everything else out and really get absorbed in a book. But, so it's not, if you think that you can say, read for twenty minutes, here's a book. It's not that easy for a lot of kids. Sometimes those conditions really, you really have to create an environment that allows it for a kid that's whose brain is on fire, you know, and who's so given to distraction. So that's my little bit of it. What I've Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[26:51]Zibby Owens: Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quint's has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[29:41]Dave Eggers: Learned. Well, thank you for making me feel better and not feel like the worst mom on the planet, which I feel like half the time. So. Well, you know, I hope that you don't I hope that you're not serious. I No. I'm not. I'm not. I'm just kidding. Yeah. We can never judge ourselves when we're doing everything we can, especially right now. I feel like Yes. It's been such a weird time and we're never gonna it will be a decade before we realize how weird it's been for the kids. But when they start writing about it in their college, creative writing papers and things like that. But I do feel like parents, you know, modeling that behavior, having a reading hour or reading ninety minutes at home or reading out loud. Mhmm. I can't say I'm a big reading out loud as a family person, but I do we've done it some, and it's always magical. Mhmm. If you can spare that time. And then I always when I do I read I meet people at like bookstores, you know, bookstore signings and stuff. And I'll meet some 22 year old guy with his mom and they read out loud together even at 22. And I'm always thinking that these are like the greatest humans imaginable that have that time to sort of, you know, just read aloud to each other because it really does penetrate the psyche in a whole new way. If you're in a room with somebody you know and you're reading out loud, just like when you, I remember every word that my third grade teacher, Mrs. Pringleson, read when she read Rolled Dolls, James and the Giant Peach. I can picture exactly where I sat, who was sitting next to me, that feel of the carpet, the light from the window, everything about it. And that book, I feel like I could recite because of how she read it to us, you know? Oh,

[31:31]Zibby Owens: that's a nice image. I love that. Yeah. I read, I do read every night out loud to my kids and I actually read to my husband when I have, like, a Oh, good. Yeah. When I have a book that I think he would love because I read all the time, you know, for my podcast and all this. Anyway, so if it's a book I think he'll love, I'm like, well, let me read it to you. So then I read it out loud to him, and that's really fun. Wow. And how long will you will you read just passages or a whole chapter or what? I'll read like a a couple chapters before bed or if we're in a long car ride and we don't happen to have the kids or they're all on their iPads or something, and it's a great book, I'll I'll read it and, you know, he likes it. Wow. Yeah.

[32:07]Dave Eggers: Well, I'll give a plug for the best book on tape because we drive from California to Idaho fairly often. And the best book so we'll listen to books on tape, and the best one I ever heard was Sissy Spacek doing To Kill a Mockingbird. And, you know, there there's been some extraordinary books on tape, the guy who does most of my books on tape, Dion Graham, is a great you know, he's an actor, and he's on movies and TV, and he also does books on tape, and he's extraordinary at it. But it's such an underappreciated art. And for all ages, that sissy Spacek, To Kill a Mockingbird is something that she took a classic and somehow made it even better. And she just threw everything she has at that and really sounds like Scout. You know, if you could imagine what Scout's voice would have been like as an adult, it's her.

[33:03]Zibby Owens: And so I can't recommend that highly enough. Maybe Okay. When I need a break. The greatest. When I need a break, Aala. Exactly. I know I've already taken so much of your time. Can I just ask one last question, which is what advice would you have for aspiring authors?

[33:19]Dave Eggers: You know, I would get yourself in a writing group before almost anything else because you need peer editing. You need people to bounce ideas off and say, how is this reading? And I'm a pretty obsessive editor and and a seeker of editing. And I feel like the one mistake some people make is not showing your work to anybody until you send it to a publisher, which I think is like skipping a 100 steps in between. I always compare it to deciding that you're gonna be a professional football player and just showing up at the stadium one day dressed up. It's like, so wait. You missed high school football, college football, the draft, the train you know, combat. You you skip every step in between. Now you're just gonna show up at the stadium. It seems in the publishing world, it can work every one in a thousand times, but otherwise, going through those normal steps of, you know, rigorously improving your work and being willing to edit and take feedback and, holding yourself to the highest standard and having the community of fellow writers that are gonna help you and support you and encourage you and helping them. And then when 10 people, you know, all say, okay, this is perfect. It's ready to go. Then that's time to send your workout. But I feel like it's always a little people are so, I think you get so excited and so impatient that you start sending your workout when you've done one draft and then that disappointment can be crushing. And then a lot of it is that you've, you haven't prepared. You've, You run to the stadium half dressed, you know? So I think being patient and then going back to what I was saying before is that the person on the other end of your submission is overworked, underpaid, has a 12 foot stack of manuscripts they're desperately trying to get through and they're doing the best they can. So, and if you don't find that publisher, publish it yourself. This has never been easier in the history of humankind to put a book out into the world and find an audience. It's we're very lucky to be living in this time in that way and that you can put it online. You can find a printer. All of these things are democratically available for the first time ever. And so if you don't find that agent publisher connection, then do it yourself and and somebody will find it. It'll mean something to somebody. So you should be patient, but don't wait forever.

[35:55]Zibby Owens: Love it. Well, Dave, thank you so much. This has been so enjoyable for me, and I hope that I meet you in person. And I'm so glad I've gotten to know you and and your wife, Ben Lavita, about her book. We Run the Tides, and it's just been great. So thank you so much. Thanks a lot, Zibby. Great to meet you. Okay. You too. Bye bye. Alright. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdon'thavetime to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro