Adam Gopnik, THE REAL WORK: On the Mystery of Mastery
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Adam Gopnik.
[1:04]This is the author of The Real Work on the Mystery of Mastery.
[1:08]Adam has been writing for The New Yorker since 1986.
[1:11]He is a three-time winner of the National Magazine Award for essays and for criticism and
[1:15]of the George Polk Award for magazine reporting.
[1:18]In March 2013, Gopnik was awarded the Medal of Chevelier de L'Arjola de Zalt, a de
[1:23]de L'Arjola, by the French Republic.
[1:26]He lives in New York City with his wife and their two children.
[1:28]Did you like my accent?
[1:29]Welcome, Adam.
[1:30]Thanks so much for coming.
[1:31]Just don't have time to read books to discuss the real work on the mystery of mastery.
[1:37]I am delighted to be here and I am married to a mom who didn't have enough time for
[1:42]read books for the thing up on it now and had kind of typically robust pandemic program
[1:48]of big books for that three-dec and proofed and all those things.
[1:51]Oh, wow.
[1:52]I can't have them on the podcast, but you know, we need like an offshoot of like classics.
[1:58]But.
[1:59]Yeah, exactly.
[2:01]Anyway, okay, so the real work, this phrase comes from magicians, tell everyone what your
[2:08]book is about and why why this book and why now?
[2:12]Well, my favorite line in the book was originally intended to be its opening line, which
[2:17]is this is a self-help book that won't help.
[2:19]Yeah, I love that.
[2:20]By the way, that was awesome.
[2:21]I was sure it asked me I would keep it, but move it to a slightly later spot so people
[2:26]picking it up in the bookstore wouldn't say what?
[2:29]But it's a it's a series of personal essays, really comic essays are the kind that I write
[2:35]for the New Yorker magazine most often about learning to do things in what I'll call politely
[2:41]later middle age.
[2:43]And specifically, it's about as the subtitle of the book says the mystery of mastery.
[2:48]How was it we get good at things?
[2:49]How is it that we get satisfaction when we're not particularly good at things?
[2:53]How do we learn to do new things in later life?
[2:56]How did we learn to do new things when we were younger?
[2:59]And if the book has a crux, and I hope as with with all good books, it's pleasures lie
[3:05]in the particulars, there are I hope some, you know, very funny portraits of the back
[3:10]and forth between me struggling to learn a new skill like learning to drive.
[3:16]And the combination of patience and exasperation on the part of this wonderful gamut
[3:20]of teachers who I was blessed to stumble upon Jacob Collins, a hard-nosed reactionary
[3:27]drawing master who taught me how to draw nude bodies are torot Leon, a wild Ecuadorian
[3:34]driving instructor who taught me one of my fifties out of some of the noodle how to be both
[3:40]relaxed and present in the car where I was terrified right on to Joey Contrada, my wonderful
[3:48]boxing instructor. I hope I'll see again tomorrow. I'm still very much engaged with who
[3:53]demonstrated me the boxing is not unleashed belligerent at all, but just the opposite.
[3:58]It's learning a tight, balladic like choreography of gestures that you have to internalize.
[4:03]So there's all these encounters with wonderful teachers, but if there's a kind of takeaway
[4:08]from it all, aside from the pleasures of those particulars, the takeaway is twofold.
[4:14]I think one is that accomplishment matters more than achievement. This is a theme that I
[4:19]decanted on in the New York Times just last week. I tried to compress the book from 50,000 words
[4:27]into 1,000. Thank you for that. And the point is that we live in a society that is absolutely
[4:35]driven by an idea of achievement, and it's particularly something that we install or instill
[4:42]both words operate into our children. We want them to achieve. We want them to pass
[4:47]the next test. We want them to get straight A's, then we want them to get into a competitive
[4:52]college on and on. And we drive them that way and we drive ourselves in similar ways because we
[4:57]are those children grown up. And as a consequence, we kind of are caught up in a, in a,
[5:04]not even a rat race, kind of like more like a rat maze where you're constantly turning the next
[5:08]corner. We're having our kids turn the next corner and they get the next sugar shot of achievement
[5:13]approval. And then they go on against that. I posit the existence of accomplishment. And by
[5:19]accomplishment, I mean all of the, if you like, interacted self-made self nourishing activities that
[5:27]we choose, I gave the example in that piece in the times of my learning to play guitar, teaching
[5:34]myself to play guitar when I was 12 years old. All I had, and I turned the, the, the camera,
[5:40]you would see, I still have an acoustic guitar and my will and a big book of Beatles songs with
[5:48]big diagrams. Of course, I'd never touched a guitar before, but I wanted to be a Beatles. So
[5:54]do it. And I laboriously, painfully, painfully, painfully, because stretching your fingers when
[6:01]you're 12 years old over a classical neck, which my son is a very good guitarist told me was
[6:06]a stupid thing to do. I should have had a proper folk guitar is difficult, but I
[6:11]manage now. I have, I've played guitar professionally once on stage in the, in the subsequent
[6:17]50 years, but I have nobody's idea of a good guitarist. But in fact, I will tell you quickly
[6:22]a story that I'm not told to any, I'm not mentioned anybody else. And I, I, because it's sort of
[6:27]irrelevant. The time I played, if I may drop a name was with James Taylor, the great singer,
[6:33]songwriter is a friend. And James had asked me if I would come on stage on Carnegie Hall on the
[6:41]night when he was doing a kind of demonstration of his passion for the guitar. He's doing kind of
[6:45]season at Carnegie Hall. One of the nights was going to be about the guitar. And he asked me if I
[6:49]come on and sort of host it because there were lots of guitars coming on and off stage. And I
[6:54]said, sure, but why don't we do this little bit that we had done once before at a New Yorker festival
[6:58]where he taught me to play a piece on guitar because everybody would love to take a guitar lesson
[7:03]with James Taylor. And I would stand in for the whole audience. So we did it. We did it on stage
[7:07]at Carnegie Hall. James taught me to play a, you can close your eyes that beautiful lullaby,
[7:12]which I had to play for years from my own children and been playing it correctly. And he taught
[7:17]it to me. Audience seemed to enjoy it, but I realized in as I left that I could say there are very
[7:23]few superlatives that we can confidently claim in life. I can say with confidence that I am the
[7:28]worst single musician ever to play his instrument at Carnegie Hall. There's no question that is the
[7:35]one superlative. I can absolutely claim no worst musician has ever played an instrument on stage at
[7:41]Carnegie Hall. In any case, that was my one time. Nonetheless, though, that was the only time I've
[7:48]ever played guitar professionally or unpervectionally as it happened. Everything else that I've
[7:53]accomplished in life, everything I've achieved in life is really built on the pedestal of that
[7:57]accomplishment because it was when I taught myself how to play guitar through sheer dent and
[8:03]perseverance that for the first time in my life, I felt confident in the pursuit of any task.
[8:09]Once you've done that, you believe you recognize or in as funny ways that your body recognizes,
[8:15]how else to put it? Your body learns that given a difficult task, you may not master it to the
[8:21]ultimate level, but that you can manage it. We all know as parents how, in life, any how empowering
[8:27]to use another old-fashioned word, that is for our kids. It doesn't matter if they get to be the
[8:32]best at it, the moment when they can hit a baseball or serve a tennis ball or write a haiku or in my
[8:42]own my son's case, learn to do complicated sleight of hand with a deck of cars. Those are the
[8:48]moments when we see them light up when they seem genuinely to have been to become in touch with
[8:54]that things psychologist sometimes called the flow, the presence of absorption, which is all
[9:01]that happiness is really is absorption in a task outside ourselves. So this is a very long way,
[9:07]of saying that the book posits the difference between accomplishment and achievement and is really
[9:13]about the joys of accomplishment. Wow. Well, thank you for that. And long windage is great.
[9:18]I love long windage. That's the whole point is to get you to talk. So there you go.
[9:22]You know, it was funny because you talked about in the book about how in middle age we are perhaps
[9:28]less. You had a funny line that we're less able but more aware of our. So tell me a little bit
[9:36]more about that. And is there hope for us middle age people? Totally. But you know, when we're
[9:41]when we're kids in adolescence, right, and we're searching for a vocation, the thing we do well
[9:46]in life. So we sort of sort through a bunch of things and we rule out a lot of stuff that we
[9:50]don't in some sense naturally do well. I tell the story in the book about when I went to learn to draw
[9:57]because I had been an art critic for 40 years. And
[10:00]did not know how to draw at all. Now, you could make a case that you don't have to know how to
[10:04]draw to be a good art critic in the same way. You don't have to be able to hit a hundred mile
[10:08]per hour fastball to be a good sports writer. Just the opposite most often, the greatest sports
[10:13]writer is tended to be like my hero, AJ Liebling, the greatest boxing writer, tended to be
[10:18]corpulent, stolen, immobile, man who loved to observe, though Liebling, in fact, did boxes,
[10:24]but I do think that if you have some general tactile corporeal sense, haptic sense, if you like,
[10:32]of what that task is like, you may not be able to do it better, but you have a much deeper understanding
[10:38]of what the particular challenge is that confronts the boxer or the painter or whoever it might be.
[10:45]Once you've studied drawing, even if you draw very badly, when you look at a Renaissance picture
[10:50]for ever after, you're a little more immune to the temptation of seeing it as a kind of move
[10:56]in a game of abstract historical chess, and you're aware that what Michelangelo or Castagna or
[11:03]Montagne was struggling with was how do you describe the way the weight of a foot lands on the
[11:10]ground while the weight of the opposite hip is lifted above it. That's what they were struggling with,
[11:15]not where does this fit in the development of Western civilization. So in that sense, I think it's
[11:21]hugely valuable. But as a kid, I had couldn't draw it also. I just put it aside. He said, I'm not
[11:25]going to dissect frogs when I grown up, and I'm not going to do art. I'm going to be a writer.
[11:30]But when we come to them again later in life, we don't have to be good at it to get something
[11:36]extremely significant from it, something significant, both in the sense that I was just describing
[11:41]where a tune sensitive, if you like, to the nature of other of the tasks, other people take on,
[11:49]if you want to appreciate what a great pianist does, play piano poorly. That's the way to get it.
[11:56]And I do that. I do play piano poorly. So I can, when I hear Bill Evans or Earl Garner or someone
[12:02]like that, I have a sense of the power virtuosity of what they do. But the other great advantage of it
[12:08]is that the internal sensation that learning a new thing supplies you is paradoxically,
[12:15]every bit is rich for those of us who do it poorly, but attempted passionately and with perseverance
[12:21]as is for the people who are genuinely good at it. I tell the story at one point is, you know,
[12:26]Zibi in the book about the hummingbird and the elephant. That could have been an alternative
[12:31]title for this book, the hummingbird and the elephant, because there's the famous kind of
[12:36]of folk tale that hummingbirds and elephants have the same number of heartbeats in a lifetime,
[12:41]a billion heartbeats. And you'd be sure that that was just a folk tale, but it's true.
[12:45]It turned out to be true. There's a whole heartbeat project in North Carolina State University
[12:50]where they study heartbeats and grow some modo with, you know, obvious exceptions,
[12:55]every mammal in bird basically gets a billion heartbeats in a lifetime. The hummingbird gets hers
[13:01]in a hundred days and the elephant gets his in a hundred years, but they have the same number
[13:05]of heartbeats. And the poetic reflection one inevitably makes about that is that their experience
[13:11]of existence is identical, right? The hummingbird in a hundred days, mates, eats, feeds, exists, flies,
[13:22]just as intently as the elephant does over its over its hundred years. And the next poetic
[13:29]extrapolation that comes immediately to mind is that we are all, we all have the interiors of
[13:34]hummingbirds, our hummingbird heartbeats rest in our own, our own interiors. And when we take on a new
[13:41]task, we get the flutter, the thrill, the excitement of having gotten a bit better at it. You know,
[13:48]there's every single task that I undertook in the course of doing this book. And they wasn't planned
[13:53]in advance. It was one thing after another happened. Every single thing I did had exactly the same
[13:59]and that is you were introduced to these very counterintuitive, stubborn halting steps dancing.
[14:06]Dancing is the model for everything else. I've learned to foxtrot with my wonderful daughter Olivia
[14:12]and you trip over your feet trying to follow the steps that your formal dance teacher is insisting
[14:18]on and you look like a fool and she struggles to follow your lead and so on. And then over time,
[14:25]through sheer, passionate perseverance and repetition, those stumbling steps become a dance and you
[14:33]hold your daughter and your arms and you realize, oh, darling, we're dancing together. That's the
[14:38]model of how all of those things happen. And you don't have to be dancing at the level of
[14:44]Fred Astaire to have that enormous sense of bliss, of release, of the flow being a tangible thing
[14:55]between the two of you simply by by having done it. And so the glorious thing is as we get older,
[15:01]that feeling, which is in some ways rare in our mature lives and it was when we were younger,
[15:07]when we were younger, we were getting that hit, that high all the time. But it's still available to
[15:13]us if we undertake the new thing. And so we tend to condescend to older people who are learning
[15:20]watercolors or doing fatigue or playing chess and we have a horribly ages culture as I'm sure
[15:26]you agree and we patronize those people. But those are the people who have rocket fuel
[15:31]in their veins. Those are the people who are getting high on the most powerful cognitive
[15:37]that there's ever been. And that is human entry into the power of absorption, into the flow,
[15:45]into the bliss of accomplishment. Wish my grandmother were alive to hear you describe her
[15:50]late stage painting career, not career, you know, enjoyment that eloquently she would have loved it.
[15:57]But it's true. I'm wondering, what do you think? Because I feel like some of the things I
[16:02]accomplish or I have to master are on the computer. They're not like learning to, you know,
[16:07]back dive anymore, right? Or all those things I used to do. But it's, I can't upload this edit. I
[16:12]can't have to troubleshoot it. And I've, okay, I finally figured it out. And now it took the ad and
[16:17]I present it few. Like, does that count? That's what got invented teenagers.
[16:24]You know, I'm everybody comes up. There's a line. I don't know what it is. It's like,
[16:28]anything you didn't master technologically before you were 40 is going to be totally opaque to
[16:33]you. And I am as much as anyone around, you know, when I can't turn the television on without
[16:39]calling my son in Texas and saying, look, did you have a moment here? We're trying to get onto
[16:45]the Disney app. I can't do it. What do I have to tell me? Walk me through it. Again,
[16:51]patiently he walks me through this very simple sequence that I forgot. One of the things I think is
[16:55]true. And I had not, I know it sounds impossible, but authors learn about their own books very
[17:01]often by having conversations like this one or in my case, I've just come back from a book tour.
[17:07]I mean, in 20 cities. And I'm the really low men of American littering. I'm hoping to be well
[17:14]liked. But you learn about your own book when you're out on the road. And one of the things that
[17:19]many readers pointed out to me, which should have been self-evident, but wasn't, is that this is
[17:25]the book very much about someone who has spent a large part of his life living in his head,
[17:29]which writers naturally have to do communicating with symbols, little black and white marks on a
[17:34]screen as now or on a page, who then picks up, takes up physical activities, dancing and boxing,
[17:42]drawing, even driving. Now, one of the truths of all those physical activities is that they're not
[17:48]physical. They are profoundly psychological. We cannot, anything we do becomes everything we are,
[17:54]you cannot learn to drive a car in isolation from your memories of your father driving from
[18:01]expectations of your son learning to drive. We are meaning machines, human beings are meaning
[18:06]machines and anything we attempt. We can't do mechanically. We do it through the
[18:11]accession of meaning in our, in our heads and hearts and lives. So they're not physical in that
[18:16]narrow sense. They're richly psychological, but they do involve mastering, mastering physical
[18:22]actions like boxing or or dancing. And so in that sense, I suppose there's a sort of built in
[18:28]predilection in this book that we all do well by picking out a physical, a physical pleasure
[18:36]to pursue as we as we get older. It's good for your body. It's good for your synapses.
[18:42]And it's good for your soul to perpetually pursue that. And I think that that in itself is good
[18:48]pursuing the physical, even if we understand that there is no such thing as the purely physical
[18:53]in life, even the most purely physical things we do like love making are the most
[18:58]complexly psychological things that we can, we can take part in. Interesting. I love it. Do you
[19:04]think you can ever really master writing? Well, you know, so here's the truth, I think, is that
[19:10]you know, writing has been my passion since I could read. I never ever wanted to be anything
[19:16]else except a writer. I'm very monomaniacal in my pursuit of it. And I think it is the one thing
[19:24]that I that I do do well. And I, you know, I'm, I'm too old to pretend otherwise now and too
[19:29]well. It have published too many words. But the paradox of that, of course, is that the thing
[19:35]the thing we'd really do well is inevitably the thing that gives us in a certain sense, the least
[19:42]flow, the least bliss because with everything else we do, simply by watching all the stumbling
[19:48]steps begin to form themselves into an internalized sequence. We get high. But when you do one thing
[19:55]well, inevitably, you can only experience the space between your ambitions.
[20:00]your accomplishments. So when I sit down to write a sentence, and I am rare, if not unique
[20:06]among writers, because I love to write flip open my laptop and not clock with my with my coffee,
[20:11]and I'm a happy man. I love the act, the physical act of writing. But inevitably, when I
[20:17]read it through again, I want every sentence to be as psychologically intricate as
[20:22]proves to centrally rhapsodic as John Uptike, and as huddingly sardonic as SJ Perlman. And I don't
[20:30]get that. I don't produce that. I like what I produce, but I don't produce that. So the space
[20:35]between my ambitions and my accomplishments as with everyone. I have a dear friend who's a
[20:40]winemaker named Randall Graham. I wrote a profile of once wonderful winemaker in California. But
[20:46]Randall goes to Smith and to taste his own wine, a look of an immeasurably painful disappointment
[20:55]crosses his face. The wine is good, but he has in mind a 1945 Chaval Blanc, you know, the greatest
[21:02]wines ever made. That's what he's trying to make and making a terrific wine is just an internal
[21:08]source of disappointment to him. I wonder if there's a way to get to a place where we're all just happy
[21:13]the best that we're doing possible? Not possible. I think in all seriousness, I think what you can
[21:19]get to, and that's what I was trying to describe, is a place where you love doing it. That you can
[21:23]guess, right? Where you'll never be feel that it's good enough, but where you actually actively
[21:28]love the act of doing it. And, you know, dying news, we say it, and that would, that is enough.
[21:36]I actually have a novel coming out in March, and the main character, one of the characters has a dog,
[21:41]and I named the dog, Diane. It's a great, you know, it's very Jewish, but I always think it's one
[21:47]of the greatest words, phrases, wisdom that there is. That would be enough. Just that much for us,
[21:54]that would be enough. And it's a beautiful thought. What is something you would like to
[22:01]master next? Is there anything on your wish list? Yeah, absolutely. Two things, particularly,
[22:06]both of them I'm pursuing, but didn't have, you know, was just kind of nosing around when I was
[22:12]working on this book. One is singing. I write songs, I write musical theater, and though I'm a lyricist,
[22:17]not a composer, or occasionally I'll paint a tiny tune, and a composer will take it and move it
[22:25]to another dimension. I would love to be able to sing my own work, because it's very hard to
[22:30]demonstrate a song to a singer or an actor or an actress without singing it. Good friend,
[22:37]we should malt beat one of the lyricists who can really land a song, a composer, Andrew Lipa,
[22:43]who I'm writing a show with right now, is a fantastic singer, professional quality singer.
[22:47]So I'd like to be able to sing well enough just to learn it. And the best singers I know
[22:52]all tell me, it's not that hard. Singing is just speaking in pitch. So I'm struggling with that.
[22:57]The other thing is to learn Italian. The other thing is to learn Italian. I love Italy.
[23:01]I thought you said accounting, and I was like, what? No, no, no, no, no, no. It's totally off the
[23:07]market. I learned to draw, and that was difficult. I'm never going to learn accounting.
[23:12]But Italian, I love Italy, is who does not. And I love going Italy. I speak decent French,
[23:18]having grown up in Montreal, and have been lived in France for many years,
[23:21]but I don't speak Italian, and I feel that terrible sense of frustration
[23:25]and inadequacy. And the worst thing I ever do in life is to pretend to speak Italian.
[23:31]When we're in Italy, I once, in a restaurant in Venice, I ordered very confidently wild strawberries
[23:36]for dessert and got a plate of green beans. Instead, there's a single hard,
[23:42]like Alini and Fajunini that divides them. The kids thought it was the single funniest thing that
[23:48]had ever happened in the world. And they do not pause in compassion to repeat the story to
[23:55]their friends. So I would like to be able to speak with enough authority to distinguish between
[24:00]wild strawberries and green beans. I tried to take Italian when I was in my 20s,
[24:05]and I took it for, I don't know, a year. Now, of course, I remember nothing. But it's such a
[24:09]beautiful language. It's fun, even when you fail. Yes. I would, so I would like to have enough to be
[24:13]able to order, yeah, ordered dinner. And of course, the waiter served you the green beans. Let him
[24:19]move. Great. Of course, he wasn't going to give, he wasn't going to kind of be great. I will say
[24:25]that of all the things I'm proud of, I have a wonderful Italian publisher who publishes all of my
[24:30]books in Italian beautifully designed. So far as I can tell, they've never sold a single copy
[24:35]of it. But they all exist in Italian and nothing makes me proud of and looking over at myself
[24:40]and seeing my books in Italian. What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[24:45]Two things in all seriousness. The first is that the big task in writing is to turn the
[24:51]metal task of writing into a physical task of having written. It sounds counterintuitive. I
[24:56]know, but you weren't really right with your head, though you live in your head to some degree,
[25:00]you're right with your stomach. That is, you just have to treat it as a challenge like
[25:05]writing a stationary bike or being on a treadmill. Well, you're just commit to doing it
[25:11]physically day after day after day because your brain is smarter than your mind. The best
[25:15]sentence is the most interesting ideas you ever have will come from your brain into your fingers
[25:20]without the intercession of your conscious mind very often. And if you'd make that commitment just
[25:26]to work for hours a day, the way you would go to the gym, you will astonish yourself by how much
[25:32]you produce. And then something that exists can always be made better. Something that doesn't
[25:38]exist can't be made to exist. So that's the fundamental challenge in writing is releasing yourself
[25:45]just to produce and trusting that the process will eventually produce something good. That's one
[25:50]part of it. And the other thing is the same as with everything else is to make an absolute commitment
[25:55]to perseverance. Anthony trial up. My favorite novelist in English had a full-time job at the
[25:59]post office and he got woke himself up at 6 a.m. to write for three hours before he had to go to
[26:05]to the post office at 9 and he wrote, I think not only among the greatest series of English novels,
[26:10]but the most voluminous series of English novels. So make that commitment, make the commitment to
[26:16]the time and then make the commitment to the physicality of it. And you will astonish yourself by
[26:21]what you're able to accomplish. I'd much rather commit to the writing than the gym. If we have
[26:27]to do that, but I'm sure you've had the same experience too. And there's almost, you know, I talked
[26:33]about that moment of inner bliss of the flow when the stumbling steps become a sequence. That's
[26:39]true in writing too. I know that there are mental aerobics just like physical aerobics in about
[26:45]45 minutes into my own stumbling steps on the keyboard, even after all these years,
[26:50]the aerobics kick in and the sentences begin to spin themselves out and all the little jokes, puns,
[26:57]iterations begin to unspool without you're being fully in control of it.
[27:02]Well, I'm going to disagree with the self help that doesn't help because I do think it helps. I
[27:06]think it is actually an ode to the growth mindset, which every parent is trying to teach their kids
[27:12]every day. And it's been packaged and repackaged in so many articles and ways. And this book is like
[27:20]people learn through hearing stories of people trying things. So this is actually quite helpful.
[27:25]And I think it's important for all of us grown-ups not to lose that joy of learning and mastery,
[27:31]even if it is just uploading a file or writing a page or whatever.
[27:35]You kind of say so. And yes, of course, I think the book helps. It helps us become
[27:40]of how we became selves in the first place and how we can continue to expand ourselves
[27:44]as as life goes on. So yes, I think it helps. Even if you short cuts and recipes,
[27:50]it gives you long cuts. So to speak, it does certainly give you stories.
[27:55]Yes. Well, thank you Adam. This was so much fun. I really love talking to you. I've been a fan
[28:00]for so long. So thank you very, very much for coming on. It was truly my pleasure. Thank you.
[28:04]All right. Have a great day. You too now. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
[28:09]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms. Don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[28:13]follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms. Don't have time to read books. Also sign
[28:18]up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[28:22]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the
[28:27]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[28:32]now trim music.