Lara Love Hardin, THE MANY LIVES OF MAMA LOVE: A Memoir of Lying, Stealing, Writing, and Healing
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[1:04]I love harden.
[1:05]Is the author of the many lives of mama love, a memoir of lying, stealing, writing and
[1:09]healing.
[1:10]You have probably seen this in newspapers and magazines because it has gotten so much press.
[1:16]Most recently, it was selected by Jeanette McCurdy for her book club.
[1:21]She's been the number one bestseller of I'm glad my mom died for like the whole year.
[1:25]I don't even know.
[1:26]Anyway, Lara Love Hardin has an MFA in creative writing and is a four time New York
[1:30]Times best selling writer, including the number one New York Times bestseller.
[1:33]Designing Your Life by Dave Evans and Bill Burnett and 2018 Oprah book club pick The
[1:39]Sun Does Shine, which she co-authored with Anthony Ray Hinton about his 30 years as an
[1:43]innocent man on Alabama's death row.
[1:46]There are well over a million copies sold of the many books she has written and you can
[1:49]find her on the title page and in the acknowledgements of books by Nelson Mandela, John
[1:54]Gottman, Evie Pompaurus and other luminary authors on the idea architects roster.
[2:00]In 2019, she won a Christopher Award for her work affirming the highest values of the
[2:05]human spirit.
[2:06]In 2019, she was also nominated for an NAACP Image Award, won the more prize in the UK
[2:13]and was shortlisted for the Dayton Literary Peace Prize.
[2:16]In 2020, she launched her own division within Idea Architects, Idea Architects True, as
[2:21]a literary agent specializing in memoir.
[2:23]She lives in La Silva Beach, California with her third husband, three dogs, three cats,
[2:28]and three teenagers.
[2:29]She also has 21 chickens, four ducks, and three adult sons who live at home on holidays
[2:34]and big laundry days.
[2:36]Again, this is called The Many Lives of Mama Love by Lara Love-Hardon.
[2:41]Welcome Lara.
[2:42]Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss the many
[2:45]lives of Mama Love.
[2:47]You remember?
[2:48]Thank you for having me.
[2:49]Oh my gosh, what a joy.
[2:51]So I watched your entire TEDx talk, which was riveting and amazing and you are like so
[2:58]sensational and have such a powerful story.
[3:01]So tell me when, first of all, I want you to tell listeners the whole thing, but not the
[3:07]whole TEDx.
[3:08]I was born a summary, and then when it became a book as well.
[3:14]So take it with one.
[3:16]So the whole story, or sort of the, I'll give you the story of the book, which is kind
[3:20]of the whole story, but it's really a story of being like suburban soccer mom.
[3:27]I have four children, four boys and two stepchildren.
[3:30]So I had six children and I became addicted to opiates, first pain medication, and then
[3:37]heroin.
[3:38]I ended up leading guilty to 32 felonies spending a year in the county jail and basically
[3:45]losing everything and everyone that made up who I was, right?
[3:49]So I was no longer mom, wife, literally coach all the things were gone.
[3:54]And then when I got out, you know, as I said in that, in my TEDx jobless homeless carless
[3:59]friendless without my children and all I had was a whole lot of shame and a, you know, an
[4:04]MFA and creative writing, right, like not, which I had gotten, you know, in my in my 20s.
[4:10]So the second half of the book is really the story of reentry and trying to move past the
[4:15]worst thing I've ever done and the worst version of myself I've ever been and sort of rediscovering
[4:21]my love of writing and reading and working in a literary agency.
[4:27]This crazy story working with some amazing people in the world like Archbishop Desmond
[4:32]Tutu becoming a ghostwriter where I was kind of hiding in the acknowledgements of books
[4:37]and and really thinking if I was good and Jason, I could prove to myself in the world
[4:42]that I was good or more good than that, right?
[4:45]And, you know, it's a crazy story.
[4:48]The reason I did the book is because objectively I was like, that's a that's a crazy story.
[4:52]Yeah.
[4:53]But, you know, it's the subtitle is a memoir of line stealing writing and healing.
[4:58]So it kind of covers all of those things.
[5:01]Yeah.
[5:02]Yes.
[5:03]And then you end up, you know, doing an Oprah book club pick or collaboration and you're
[5:10]like, here we are at lunch.
[5:11]Oh my gosh.
[5:12]Yeah.
[5:13]But can you take us through how you went from the MFA in your 20s to heroin?
[5:19]That old story.
[5:20]No.
[5:21]So, you know, the first line of my book is reading was my first addiction.
[5:25]You know, and I had a pretty, you know, fairly traumatic childhood, a lot of addiction
[5:30]and alcoholism in my family and I always thought I could like out-educate myself from
[5:34]that.
[5:35]Right.
[5:36]Like I could, I thought education was inoculation.
[5:38]So if I just focus on school, which I always loved and I went straight, you know, to college
[5:43]3,000 miles away from home, I grew up in the East Coast.
[5:46]I went as far away from home as I could, went to college, went straight to graduate school.
[5:51]And I had three boys in four and a half years right after my master's degree.
[5:56]And I was in a really unhappy marriage.
[5:58]My husband was cheating on me and I think, you know, I'm not someone who ever learned
[6:03]to say like, hey, I think I have a problem or I need some help or I'm depressed.
[6:07]You know, I think I was really depressed because I had in my mind that I was just going
[6:11]to have this leave it to be her family.
[6:13]I'm dating, aging myself, but this kind of like fairy tale perfect family, perfect mom, perfect
[6:21]white, like thing that I didn't have growing up.
[6:24]And so the problem with having this sort of imaginary, perfect world in your head is when
[6:31]reality doesn't match up.
[6:33]It's really hard.
[6:34]I think I was depressed and you know, back in the 90s, you know, before the opiate crisis
[6:40]was a crisis, like, Vicodin was handed out like, like a little sample pack, like, oh,
[6:46]your ear hurts, here's some Vicodin, oh, you're going to have, you know, your teeth
[6:49]cleaned, here's some Vicodin, oh, you're having a baby, here's some Vicodin after.
[6:53]And so I remember really clearly, you know, my kids were little, I had three little kids,
[6:59]I took a Vicodin for something and it made me feel joy, right?
[7:03]Like I felt like not depressed and the way opiates work in my brain is to like give
[7:08]me energy and excitement, like caffeine.
[7:11]And so I was like, oh, okay, I can pretend my marriage is okay, I can pretend that life
[7:15]is going the way I had planned it.
[7:19]And so one, you know, one turns into two to have that same feeling and so on and so on.
[7:24]And so jumping way ahead, so I kind of struggled with that on and off and I would quit
[7:28]a million times and think I don't have a problem because I can quit, right?
[7:32]And like taking two, two Vicodin a day, turned into taking 60 a day, oh my gosh, you
[7:39]know, like, which is a crazy, it's just a crazy amount, it's a crazy amount of tolerance
[7:45]that you build up.
[7:46]I had my first marriage when that broke up, I got married to my second husband where
[7:50]I had my fourth son with and he was struggling with addiction and one time I found some
[7:57]sticky brown stuff on our, you know, we moved into a new home and this cul-de-sac and
[8:02]bought a business and I found this little sticky stuff and I called the friend and I was
[8:06]like, what is this?
[8:07]You know, I had no idea what it was.
[8:09]And you know, there were lots of other struggles going on at the time and so I googled.
[8:14]I was going to volunteer at my son, my kids all went to Montessori school, so I was
[8:18]going to volunteer to do arts and crafts project.
[8:21]But on the way there at the red light, I was googling how to smoke heroin, like, how
[8:25]do you do that?
[8:26]So later that day, I tried it.
[8:29]I've never been really crazy.
[8:30]What was the sticky brown stuff?
[8:32]It was, oh, sorry, it was Black tar heroin and so he had, he had, it's not something
[8:39]he did so he had started doing this and I googled how to smoke it and started smoking
[8:45]it and then in the course of 10 months my life was, was over.
[8:50]You know, the police came and arrested me, my son, my youngest son was almost four at
[8:55]the time and he was only one home, so child protective services took him.
[9:00]And it was really this race to to get him back, well, but I was in jail and he only had
[9:08]a year because of his age.
[9:09]So it was traumatizing for the entire family.
[9:15]My, my face was on the front page of the paper.
[9:18]One of my older sons was in junior high at the time and he said that newspaper was in
[9:21]every single classroom all day long, every class he went to.
[9:25]So that is a, that's a quick summary, but then I go on your Instagram and you're like,
[9:32]they're your beautiful boys.
[9:34]Like, oh, you're all happy and like doing like all these great wonderful things and
[9:38]yeah, like, oh my gosh, how far did she come and so fast?
[9:42]Yeah, it feels fast and it feels really long at the same time.
[9:47]So we were just on a family vacation, 10 people last, last week, we just got back.
[9:52]And there's moments like that we were, we were in Maui.
[9:55]And so I was sitting there and when I was in jail, I remember this, when I first got there
[9:59]and I did it.
[10:00]No, I didn't know gel politics.
[10:03]I didn't know any, had a function.
[10:04]I didn't know what the rules were, you know,
[10:06]like regardless of my crimes,
[10:08]like I'm a rule follower, you know?
[10:10]So, and I was like, where's my orientation?
[10:12]You know, like, where's my welcome, where's my,
[10:15]you know, list of amenity?
[10:16]Where's my welcome brochure?
[10:18]But I remember this girl had this one woman
[10:20]who was in a locked cell,
[10:22]and she had a postcard.
[10:24]And on one side, it was a, it was a Hawaiian island.
[10:27]I don't remember which, you know,
[10:29]if I were making it up, I could say it was Maui,
[10:30]but I don't remember what it was.
[10:32]And I remember looking at that during that year,
[10:35]so many times and just being like,
[10:36]I'll never go there again.
[10:39]Like, I'll never get like, that's over for me.
[10:42]So, so there was a moment last week when we were in Maui,
[10:46]and I was like, looking at all my boys,
[10:48]you know, there's some of the mad partners
[10:49]in my stepdaughter, and I was like, oh, here we are.
[10:53]Like, there's still moments.
[10:54]Like, it seems like just yesterday,
[10:56]because you can see I still get emotional about it.
[10:59]But it is really, you know, that year,
[11:02]and then the year's after,
[11:04]because it was like rebuilding life is not,
[11:06]not the easiest thing to do with a criminal record, for sure.
[11:11]But, you know, sometimes when I'm like,
[11:12]oh, I don't want to wash the dishes,
[11:14]or I don't want to mop the floor,
[11:14]and I was like, oh, at least I'm doing it
[11:16]for my own family, not 32 women, you know, like in the in jail.
[11:20]And so it does create a lot of gratitude
[11:23]that I probably wouldn't have had otherwise.
[11:25]And that still feels like yesterday, sometimes.
[11:28]So, I mean, the fact that you got to such a low point,
[11:35]like that you were like, this is, you know,
[11:36]life's not worth living, just such joy.
[11:40]And like that year, like,
[11:42]I mean, it's really incredible, the trajectory.
[11:45]And then to be able to write about it
[11:47]on top of all that is yet another gift.
[11:50]Right, it's not just the, you know,
[11:54]amazingness of that experience,
[11:55]but to be able to beautifully put it into words
[11:58]and tell your story and get it out there,
[12:00]especially since you work in words
[12:02]and help off all the time.
[12:04]So, wait, tell me how, tell me more about your firm,
[12:08]which, by the way, sounds really cool.
[12:10]I was like, oh, this is amazing.
[12:12]They help authors all the way through.
[12:13]Like, tell me how, and how Doug like took you under
[12:17]his wing and your memoir division.
[12:20]I'm like, wait, tell me, tell me, yeah.
[12:23]Yeah, so it's, it's a crazy story
[12:25]because I was maybe, it was 2011.
[12:28]So, you know, a couple of years plus out of jail
[12:31]and really struggling to get a job with the record,
[12:34]get a job meet all of the court requirements.
[12:36]You know, it's kind of us,
[12:37]it's a really hard system to navigate
[12:40]when you're trying to, when you're on probation,
[12:42]you're trying to meet all the requirements.
[12:44]And so I read, I started working for this
[12:46]come to call content divas where it was like, you know,
[12:49]write 1600 words a day, like blogs or SEO blogs.
[12:52]You know, and they were, it was crazy
[12:55]because they were like, you know, travel blogs
[12:57]or like 10 blogs about how to, you know,
[13:00]I was trying to find metaphors for savings accounts, right?
[13:03]Like savings account is like, you know, just writing,
[13:05]but it was like really good experience
[13:06]right quickly every day, very little money.
[13:09]And so I was, you know, struggling, like how am I gonna
[13:12]pay rent and pay court fines and all of these things.
[13:14]And so I saw Craigslist ad for a literary agent,
[13:16]like part time assistant.
[13:18]And I was like an agency that's working with Desmond Tut
[13:21]who is advertising on Craigslist, like pretty sure
[13:24]I might get murdered, but I'm gonna call, you know?
[13:28]And so I called them and I was like, is this,
[13:30]cause the ad was pretty old, is this job still available?
[13:33]And they're like, yeah, but, you know,
[13:34]get your letter in quickly.
[13:36]And it was like a long list of questions,
[13:38]like qualities like way over the top
[13:40]for a part time assistant job.
[13:41]So I was like, oh, this is a fun writing exercise, you know?
[13:44]And I answered it honestly.
[13:46]I didn't say, by the way, I have criminal record.
[13:49]And I remember I was at the welfare office with my son,
[13:52]who was five now.
[13:54]And when you have a drug conviction,
[13:57]you can't get any cash welfare.
[13:59]You can't get any benefits because that's just the law.
[14:02]And so I was kind of appealing that.
[14:03]And I got a phone call, you know, sitting in a miserable office,
[14:07]trying to entertain a toddler who is miserable
[14:09]with surrounded by people who are all miserable.
[14:12]And I get this call, like, can you come to this job
[14:14]interview in an hour?
[14:15]And like, I think I'd been waiting two hours
[14:17]and it was like, do I go to the job interview?
[14:20]I had a car that didn't go uphill, right?
[14:22]So I didn't know, like, and I was like,
[14:25]do I go to this job interview?
[14:27]Do I stay here to try and get some food stamps or something?
[14:30]And so it was like one of those decision moments
[14:32]I was like, okay, I'll be there in an hour.
[14:33]I didn't know who I was going to get to watch Kate
[14:35]and like, you know, I was not dressed for an interview.
[14:38]But I went there and I got the job with Doug Abrams
[14:41]who had started as an editor at HarperCollins
[14:44]and started his own literary agency.
[14:46]And he immediately had me like editing a tutu biography
[14:49]and working on a book proposal.
[14:51]And, you know, I remember like Googling like word,
[14:53]how to do track changes, you know?
[14:56]And I started working there and immediately started
[14:58]ghost writing or collaborative writing for an author.
[15:01]You know, I told Doug like, oh, I have this,
[15:03]he's like, what do you think of this proposal?
[15:05]And I had this idea about how to structure it.
[15:06]He's like, hold on, I'm covering to you in with the author.
[15:09]And I remember being like, I can't talk to an author,
[15:11]you know, like it was just like this sort of panic situation.
[15:15]And I said my idea and it was just kind of like,
[15:18]okay, great, you're going to work on it with him.
[15:20]And it ended up selling in a big auction.
[15:22]And then I was just off and running doing all the things
[15:27]to run a literary agency and collaborating.
[15:29]I think I collaborated on 12 books in seven years there
[15:33]or 10 years or, and you know, it was Doug never asked me
[15:37]at the beginning, do you have a criminal record?
[15:39]You know, like if I just met you on the streets,
[15:41]not the first thing you're going to think, you know?
[15:44]Like, hey, do you have 32 felonies by any chance?
[15:47]You know, it's not the first thing you think.
[15:49]And he didn't ask and I had kind of a don't ask, don't tell.
[15:51]Like, I was going to be honest to be asked,
[15:53]but it wasn't something I was going to volunteer.
[15:56]And so we were in the office about,
[15:58]I don't know, I've been working for a few weeks
[16:00]and he had very trusting like immediately handed over
[16:03]like all his passwords and all his things, you know?
[16:05]And I was just like, okay, I'm, you know,
[16:08]going to do this job so well.
[16:09]You know, like this is my chance to rebuild my life.
[16:12]And he was talking to an author who did Digbolts,
[16:16]who did what colors your parachute, right?
[16:17]That was one of the books our agency did.
[16:20]And now people in Google, their employers,
[16:22]you know, talking about a new edition of the book.
[16:24]And so as we're seeing their Doug Googled me.
[16:27]And I remember that moment because I was sitting in my desk
[16:29]and it was just like the air changed.
[16:30]And I looked up and he was looking at me
[16:32]with just like this look of horror on his face
[16:35]because he Googled me in that front page headline popped up.
[16:40]And it was just this moment.
[16:42]He was like, I didn't call your references.
[16:44]Like go home, come back tomorrow, we'll talk about it.
[16:46]And I left there and I was so ashamed.
[16:49]And I was like, I will never come back.
[16:51]Like I can't come back.
[16:53]You know, and I spent the night not sleeping.
[16:54]And I was like, I'm gonna go back and just tell him
[16:57]that I'm sorry I put him in the situation
[16:59]that I'm still as brilliant today as he thought I was
[17:02]yesterday, you know, and he was really amazing
[17:05]because he said, you know, I can't work with someone
[17:09]like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and not walk my talk.
[17:13]So he kept me on and then we ended up building
[17:16]the agency and growing and growing.
[17:18]And then just last year I left and started my own agency.
[17:21]So yeah, it was quite a journey.
[17:24]And it was really, but I was keeping a secret
[17:26]the whole time from all of these amazing authors.
[17:28]Like you can see on the wall here that I was working with
[17:31]closely and I, but I was so afraid that people
[17:34]would Google me or find out by my past, you know,
[17:37]and eventually the first author I told was Brian Stevenson.
[17:41]You know, and it wasn't like we're working,
[17:42]we're working with very non-judgy people, you know,
[17:45]doesn't teach you in the Dalai Lama,
[17:47]but you know, we're going to India.
[17:50]That was a business trip to work on the book of joy.
[17:51]And I'm not sure I'm gonna be led in the country
[17:54]because I have a criminal record.
[17:55]And so, you know, I wasn't just in fear that whole plane ride
[17:59]and not knowing.
[18:00]And then afraid that Dalai Lama was gonna see in my soul
[18:02]and see how it was bad, you know, it was like,
[18:05]oh my gosh, and what was that conversation like
[18:07]telling Brian Stevenson?
[18:09]I mean, it was interesting because he'd asked us to come
[18:12]to Alabama to see if he wanted to work on the sun to shine
[18:16]with Anthony Ray Hinton.
[18:17]And we're at breakfast and ducks like Lara,
[18:19]would you tell, you know, taking a bite of eggs,
[18:21]would you tell Brian about your past?
[18:22]And I was like, well, because this is my secret, you know,
[18:25]and I think the world's gonna end if I tell people
[18:27]and it's gonna hurt the reputation of Doug and the agency.
[18:32]And so I told him and he was just like, you know,
[18:36]thank you for sharing.
[18:38]And that's so great that you have experienced
[18:40]that will help to work it on the book.
[18:41]Like it was this, it was like that moment
[18:44]where my past became like a selling point.
[18:46]Both were Doug was selling the book to editors.
[18:48]Like he was saying, do you know how hard it is
[18:50]to find an MFA who's been incarcerated?
[18:52]We have the greatest collaborator writer.
[18:54]And I was like, how am I a selling point now?
[18:56]You know, like it was such a switch in my brain
[18:58]of what I imagine would happen when people found out.
[19:01]You know, and ultimately like no one was judging me
[19:05]as hard as I judged myself or more unforgiving.
[19:09]I mean, some people judged me, they still do.
[19:11]But no one was as hard on me as I was on myself, ultimately.
[19:15]But it was a, you know, I was working with a woman,
[19:17]Evie Pumphurst, who was doing a book.
[19:20]She's a former Secret Service agent, right?
[19:22]So we're working on her book and she's talking
[19:24]about all the bad guys, you know,
[19:25]that she's catching us in law enforcement and stuff.
[19:28]And I was like, oh, I should tell her about my past
[19:31]because she's kind of working with a bad guy
[19:34]in her definition, you know, and so she was amazing.
[19:37]You know, she's become one of my closest friends.
[19:39]I'm pretty, she's on the podcast
[19:41]or maybe an Instagram live, really.
[19:43]Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was during the pandemic.
[19:44]It was during like the lockdown.
[19:46]Yeah, her book came out in 2020.
[19:48]Yeah.
[19:49]Yeah.
[19:50]I don't remember, but we had a nice conversation.
[19:53]That's crazy.
[19:54]Okay, so then why did you leave that agency?
[19:55]Sorry, I'm jumping all over.
[19:56]I'm like dying to know your whole life story.
[20:00]for your theory and all the steps.
[20:02]So why did you leave that agency
[20:04]and tell me about your new agency and your clients
[20:06]and all that?
[20:07]Yeah, so my new agency is true literary.
[20:11]And it's really, I like the name because it's not only,
[20:16]I don't just focus on memoir,
[20:17]but that is my kind of sweet spot specialty.
[20:19]And if I'm not reading fiction personally,
[20:22]then I want to read memoir.
[20:23]It's kind of my favorite genre in nonfiction,
[20:27]because I think there's no other way to hack empathy,
[20:30]like you're never closer to another person's brain.
[20:33]I don't know of another way
[20:34]besides reading a first-person memoir of somebody.
[20:37]Like, I don't know another way we're listening
[20:39]to the audiobook of the first-person memoir.
[20:42]There you go.
[20:42]Maybe that's like the only other,
[20:44]yeah, yeah, I narrated my audio
[20:46]so we'll see how that took.
[20:48]But so I just wanted to work at an agency that was true to me.
[20:51]And I think, you know, I just, I just, you know,
[20:55]idea architects is an amazing company,
[20:57]dugs my agent, a really close friend, you know?
[21:01]But I just felt like as I was growing and changing,
[21:04]it was just time for me to kind of go out of my own
[21:07]and do my own thing and really focus on the books
[21:11]I wanted to focus on.
[21:12]You know, as things get bigger and bigger,
[21:13]you kind of have other things you need to focus on
[21:16]in an agency to support that.
[21:18]And I just really wanted to work with, you know,
[21:21]I love working with Archbishop Desmond Tutu
[21:23]and the Dalai Lama and working on all those books,
[21:26]but like the Sylvia Vescaz Labatos of the world.
[21:29]We had such a good book.
[21:30]Yeah, so I love, you know,
[21:32]it's just really focusing on the voices
[21:35]I want to focus on.
[21:36]And just building my own,
[21:38]building my own thing that like, I don't know.
[21:41]I just feel like I'm getting, you know,
[21:43]I mean, I'm, you know, not the youngest person,
[21:46]but I feel like I'm just getting started in a way
[21:48]with the new company.
[21:50]And I used to own my own business,
[21:52]so it's just a nice, it's just a nice feeling,
[21:54]just a nice way to work for me using me to love it.
[21:58]So how does it feel knowing all this behind the scenes stuff
[22:02]about book publishing and all of it?
[22:04]And now your own book is coming out and oh my God.
[22:07]It's funny because like even, you know,
[22:10]I've talked authors of so many ledges at different stages
[22:13]of the book selling and writing and production
[22:17]and launching process.
[22:19]And I am the worst, like I am doing all the things
[22:22]that I like tell them not to worry about,
[22:24]even the editor calls, you know, like it was amazing,
[22:27]the book sold at auction with a lot of big houses,
[22:30]but the editor calls, I think,
[22:32]up to the first day of editor calls.
[22:33]I was, I was picking up one of my sons at the airport
[22:36]and I was on the phone to Rachel Newman,
[22:38]who's another agent.
[22:38]I dare architects just like sobbing in the parking lot.
[22:42]Like just like, oh, I'm horrible at this.
[22:44]I don't know.
[22:45]You know, like just like all of the craziness that you do
[22:48]when you're feeling vulnerable to, you know,
[22:50]I have a lot, I've always had a lot of empathy
[22:52]for my authors, but I definitely have a lot more
[22:55]being on this side of it.
[22:56]And it's weird, it's weird to have a publicist
[22:58]when I'm advising on publicists
[23:00]or to do promotion, you know,
[23:03]because I'm really great at hyping other people
[23:06]and advocating for other people.
[23:08]And it's just like a whole different.
[23:09]I'm not so great at doing it for myself.
[23:11]It's, we'll see how it goes,
[23:12]but it is just a whole other thing to do with it.
[23:16]Oh my gosh.
[23:19]And then the writing process itself,
[23:21]what was that experience like,
[23:23]and when did you fit that in into everything else
[23:25]you were doing and all of that?
[23:26]So I took a little sabbatical off-work last winter.
[23:29]So the book sold in like June,
[23:31]and so the manuscript was due the following June,
[23:34]you know, a year to deliver the manuscript to write it.
[23:37]And so I took seven weeks off in mid-generator mid-March
[23:43]and wrote the full draft of the book in seven weeks
[23:46]first draft.
[23:47]And I went to, I was like,
[23:51]I have to go away to do it.
[23:52]I can't be at home with my family.
[23:54]I can't be at work.
[23:55]I have to be in a completely different time zone
[23:58]to actually be away from my family and work.
[24:00]And so I went and I was like,
[24:02]where do I want to go in the world?
[24:03]So I went to Thailand by myself last year for seven weeks
[24:08]and wrote the book and it was hard.
[24:12]It was like hard to kind of relive all that stuff.
[24:14]And at one point I was like, you know,
[24:17]it was not the rainy season of Thailand,
[24:19]but literally when I was writing the darkest chapter
[24:22]of the book, there was like a thunderstorm shaking the house.
[24:26]And it was like a monsoon.
[24:28]And I was like, am I controlling the weather?
[24:30]Is it like, it was my darkness?
[24:32]You know?
[24:34]So I did, you know, in my mind,
[24:36]I was like, I just have to get a first draft done in this time.
[24:40]So literally finished it on the plane right home.
[24:42]I changed planes in Doha and like wrote a chapter
[24:45]on the layover.
[24:46]And then spent, you know, quite a bit of time
[24:49]with my editor, Amen Dolan at Simon Schuster,
[24:52]like rewriting.
[24:53]And I'm much better at first drafting than rewriting
[24:56]or the editing part was harder for me.
[24:59]But I had to go away.
[25:00]I mean, I was still selling books.
[25:02]So I was like doing editor calls at 1 a.m. Thailand time.
[25:05]And you know, but I really had to get kind of space
[25:10]around me to get it out.
[25:14]Yeah, I said, oh my gosh, like 50 times.
[25:15]This is, I'll just, do you ever,
[25:19]how do you make sure that the drug piece
[25:22]and the addiction and all that forever stays at bay?
[25:25]Like, do you worry about that?
[25:27]Well, I, I mean, I don't overly worry about it.
[25:31]I worry, you know, it's been 14 years now.
[25:34]So I feel pretty good.
[25:36]But I think for me, the rock bottom I hit was so below
[25:42]any rock bottom I ever could have imagined
[25:44]that it, that was enough.
[25:46]And I think I have a lot of, I've done a lot of work.
[25:48]So a lot of self awareness to know if I'm feeling
[25:52]squarely or antsy and so far so good 14 years out.
[25:55]So, I mean, I can't, I can't imagine,
[26:01]you know, I used to need to take 20 bike
[26:03]it into like call PG need to make like a payment
[26:05]or intimate, right?
[26:06]Like just like to have or to have a conversation.
[26:10]I mean, I know we're not in person,
[26:11]but looking someone in the eye
[26:13]and doing all of that.
[26:14]So that, that sort of fear of connection has left me,
[26:18]I guess you would say.
[26:19]So, you know, if I start thinking it's a good idea,
[26:23]I know who to call and how to get help.
[26:27]I'm not afraid to ask for help anymore,
[26:29]which is a gift for me.
[26:33]What is your one piece of advice
[26:36]that aspiring author should know?
[26:38]Oh, that's a good question.
[26:42]I think that ultimately if you have a great story
[26:48]and you're a great writer, like to just believe in that
[26:51]more than all the voices that are like,
[26:53]it's so hard to get an agent to email you back.
[26:56]And it's so hard to publish it to you know,
[26:58]whatever, like I really do believe that great stories
[27:02]that have universals for people in the world,
[27:04]whether it's a novel or memoir, a big idea book
[27:07]that it's not, you know, if it's for the greater good,
[27:12]I really believe in it's great writing, of course,
[27:15]that you'll find a way, you know.
[27:19]So, and I think people, you know,
[27:22]everyone has trauma and I think there's gold in that
[27:27]to share, you know, to inspire other people
[27:30]to help other people.
[27:31]I think there's a lot of gold in that.
[27:34]Have you ever taught a class?
[27:35]You should teach us a big class.
[27:36]Do you offer like a class platform?
[27:38]Oh, I'd love to.
[27:39]Yeah, I mean, I taught creative writing
[27:40]and when I was getting my MFA at UC Irvine
[27:43]and a class at UC Santa Cruz,
[27:45]so I mean, I just joined a memoir writing class,
[27:48]you know, as a speaker at the University of Washington
[27:52]with this amazing author, puts out a ring who teaches that.
[27:56]And I was like, oh, I guess I have a lot to say
[27:58]about memoir rating.
[27:59]Yeah, it's amazing.
[28:00]So yeah, it's on my side hustle list probably.
[28:05]Okay, I'm going to give you that.
[28:08]Even just like mining trauma for gold,
[28:10]like, yeah, really interesting.
[28:13]Yeah, and it's always a fine line
[28:15]because, you know, there's exploiting the trauma,
[28:18]but fighting the gold in it.
[28:20]I think it's, you know, memoir, I think for me
[28:23]and for the authors I've worked with
[28:24]who have trauma in their memoirs like the Sunday shine,
[28:28]you know, he was 30 years as an innocent man in jail
[28:31]in prison in death row.
[28:33]But I think that there is gold in the inspiration of that,
[28:37]even if it's just like, wow,
[28:40]if someone can get through that,
[28:42]I can get through whatever my thing is.
[28:44]Like, I just think there's a lot of amazing stories out there.
[28:48]There's a lot of ordinary people with extraordinary stories,
[28:50]and that's kind of my jam.
[28:53]Amazing. Well, I'm going to connect you
[28:55]to the class platform with this woman Darcy.
[28:59]I'm also going to keep my eyes peeled
[29:03]for anything you submit.
[29:04]Oh, yeah, okay.
[29:05]Yeah.
[29:07]I was definitely hitting a weight you up.
[29:10]Yeah.
[29:11]And yeah, and thank you so much.
[29:13]This is so inspiring.
[29:14]So inspiring.
[29:15]The story is amazing and inspiring
[29:18]and you are just a total rock star.
[29:21]Thank you so much.
[29:22]And you know, they, they Hollywood read all my trauma,
[29:25]I thought it was poured in my time, I think.
[29:26]And they're like, this is hilarious.
[29:28]So yeah, so it's kind of, I forgot to mention that.
[29:32]I said, you know, it's, it's a bad neighbor or something, right?
[29:36]The bed.
[29:37]Well, the neighbor from hell was a river from hell,
[29:39]and other people I've been was the original title
[29:41]of my book.
[29:43]Oh, okay.
[29:44]But yeah, titles changed as you know.
[29:46]Yeah. Yeah.
[29:48]This is a real title.
[29:49]Awesome.
[29:50]Amazing. Congratulations.
[29:52]When does that come in?
[29:53]Oh, I don't know.
[29:53]Writers strike.
[29:54]So yeah, yeah, it takes years.
[29:57]So we'll see.
[30:00]Congratulations, thank you.
[30:01]Thank you.
[30:02]All right, take care of them.
[30:03]Thank you so much.
[30:04]OK, bye-bye.
[30:07]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[30:09]to Read Books.
[30:10]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens,
[30:13]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:15]Also, sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com
[30:18]and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:20]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:22]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[30:25]for the Sound Editing.
[30:26]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:28]for providing this fantastic
[30:29]and show it now to music.