Patty Lin, END CREDITS: How I Broke Up with Hollywood
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[1:03]Patty Lynn is the author of end credits, how I broke up with Hollywood.
[1:07]This is our Zippy Books title for September, and I hope you will all check it out and
[1:12]read it.
[1:13]I fell in love with this manuscript when it came in on submission and got to know Patty
[1:17]quite well over all this time, and I'm so proud of her, and of course the timeliness of
[1:22]this book cannot be underrated with the writer's strike and everything else going on.
[1:26]So this is an important read, a timely read, and just really great.
[1:32]Patty Lynn is a former TV writer and producer whose credits include Freaks and Geeks,
[1:35]Friends, Desperate Housewives, and Breaking Bad.
[1:38]She has also written pilots for Fox, CBS, and Nickelodeon.
[1:41]Her Breaking Bad episode Grey Matter was nominated for a Writers Guild Award for Outstanding
[1:45]Script in the Episodic Drama category.
[1:48]She retired from television writing to pursue other interests, and occasionally appears
[1:52]in background acting roles.
[1:53]She lives in Los Angeles with her husband.
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[3:11]Welcome, Patti.
[3:12]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss
[3:16]and credits how I broke up with Hollywood, which happens to be a Zippy Books title.
[3:21]Yes, thank you.
[3:22]Thanks, Zippy.
[3:24]So exciting.
[3:25]So please tell us what your book is about.
[3:28]My book is a memoir about my television writing career.
[3:32]I wrote for TV for about 10 years, and I retired when I was 38,
[3:40]because I learned pretty quickly that the TV writing business was not what I had hoped it would be,
[3:48]and I was burnt out in every way, and just felt like I needed to get out and do something
[3:55]else with my life.
[3:56]And so I started writing a book.
[3:59]I mean, I didn't even know it was a book at first, but I just started writing about my experiences
[4:05]in the television business, and that grew into this memoir.
[4:10]Did you ever think about writing about your experiences in the television business
[4:14]as a television story only?
[4:16]Like, did you ever think about writing it as a screenplay?
[4:18]Or did you go to prose and had you written prose before?
[4:21]I had written some prose before.
[4:23]You know, I mean, when I was a kid, I used to write short stories, you know.
[4:29]So that was kind of my first attempt at creative writing.
[4:32]But yeah, I mean, I never thought about writing this as a script just because I don't know.
[4:39]It just didn't occur to me.
[4:40]It seemed like it would be really difficult to do it as a script when what I was writing about
[4:47]was how, you know, devastating that whole process was for me.
[4:55]So I had to kind of step away from that and do it in a different form just to be able to
[5:02]tackle the topic.
[5:04]I don't even know why I asked you that.
[5:06]But anyway, it just came.
[5:07]No, I mean, it makes, I mean, I think I've gotten that question before.
[5:14]So when you were writing prose versus the way that you're brain thinks when you're writing
[5:19]for TV, tell me the differences in approach and how you did it.
[5:24]I know obviously a lot of TV writing is collaborative.
[5:26]And obviously when you're writing a memoir, it's the thing you do by yourself.
[5:29]But even how you approach it, how your brain thinks of it,
[5:34]were there differences or not so much?
[5:37]It was very different.
[5:38]You know, I mean, writing a memoir was just so much more personal than any of the screenwriting
[5:45]that I did.
[5:46]And I think that, you know, screenwriting is a very specific skill.
[5:51]And when I started writing a book, I realized that I was writing, you know, my first attempt,
[5:58]you know, at writing a book, it was like my prose was very sparse.
[6:02]And it was, it came out kind of flat, you know.
[6:05]And I think that was because when you write a script, you're writing a blueprint essentially,
[6:12]you know, because you know that a director is going to come in and interpret it.
[6:16]And you know that like a production designer is going to, you know,
[6:19]figure out what the wallpaper looks like.
[6:21]And actors are going to interpret the lines.
[6:24]And so you're already sort of anticipating that it's going to be collaborative.
[6:28]And so you don't write with all the details that you would write in a book.
[6:33]And in fact, you know, in screenwriting, it's considered to be not good writing
[6:37]if you're using a lot of like description and stuff.
[6:40]So I had to retrain myself, you know, when I was writing the book
[6:44]to really give the like sensory details and to paint the scene
[6:49]because a director is not going to do that, a production designer is not going to do that,
[6:53]you know, and it's still something that I have to work really hard to do,
[6:57]because I'm so like trained the other way, you know what I mean?
[7:02]So that was a big difference.
[7:04]And then also just like, as you said, the collaborative aspect of it sometimes in TV,
[7:09]collaboration was fantastic.
[7:11]It's like one of the best things that can come out of it.
[7:15]And then other times it's a nightmare, you know, when there's not a cohesive vision
[7:21]and people are just like on different wavelengths that it can just be the final product
[7:26]can come out kind of a mess.
[7:28]So for me writing a book and having that really be just mine at first
[7:34]was really important for myself.
[7:38]Interesting.
[7:38]Wow.
[7:39]Well, I don't know.
[7:40]As a someone who's never written a screenplay, that feels like impossible to me.
[7:45]Versus, I don't know if it ever felt, if you were intimidated by the form.
[7:48]And we can stop talking about forms, but I'm just like so fascinated with
[7:52]people who can go back and forth, like poetry to fix a fiction, to screenwriting and
[7:58]screenwriting, you know, it's a historical fiction.
[8:01]I don't know.
[8:02]It's a huge skill set.
[8:03]I'm right.
[8:05]Right.
[8:05]Right.
[8:06]Okay.
[8:07]So anyway, two-year experiences in this world.
[8:11]What was the straw that broke the camel's back for you?
[8:14]You know, it wasn't just one thing.
[8:17]Honestly, it was, I like to think of it as death by a thousand cuts because it was just
[8:24]like a lot of damaging experiences over and over and over and then finally getting to the
[8:31]point where it was like, there was so much cumulative trauma from that that I just, you know,
[8:37]couldn't take it anymore.
[8:39]So it wasn't one thing, but I, you know, if I had to point to like one of the
[8:44]the experiences towards the end of my TV career that, you know, helped push me over, you know,
[8:51]it was working on, you know, writing a script and then having the showrunner essentially,
[8:58]like rewrite the whole thing.
[8:59]I mean, what happened like all the time, all the time, but to have it happen and not sort of
[9:06]be kept in the loop about it was really upsetting and there was a day where I was like,
[9:13]you know, onset supervising the shoot of my episode and my boss had like rewritten some pages
[9:20]and I didn't know.
[9:22]And then when I showed up, you know, people were, were running around trying to figure out what
[9:27]was going on and they were yelling at me and I was like, I had no idea.
[9:32]And it was just the most humiliating experience.
[9:36]Oh my gosh, you're shaking your head.
[9:38]I am shaking my head to say, oh, that would be bad.
[9:42]That would not be fun.
[9:44]Oh my gosh, I feel for you.
[9:46]You know, a big part of the book is not just about your experience in Hollywood,
[9:51]although that's of course totally intriguing and interesting and so topical with the
[9:55]strike and everything like that.
[9:56]But what I also really loved was all of your
[10:00]experience and your relationship with your parents and your romantic relationships and how everything
[10:05]was affected by your job and expectations and all that. So can you talk a little bit about
[10:11]even like your parents and what they thought you should be doing or what you just all the pressures
[10:17]you were under in all different ways? Well, my parents, you know, they wanted my brother and I to
[10:23]be doctors. I mean, they were Taiwanese immigrants and they worked really hard to survive
[10:31]in America and they, you know, they did that so that we would have more opportunities than them.
[10:38]And, you know, for them, doing something that was creative as a job just didn't make any sense.
[10:46]You know, like nobody in our family did anything that was creative as a job. So I think for them,
[10:52]it was mostly, I mean, they they saw that I had creative aspirations and that they that I had
[10:57]talent as a child and all that. But like, I think that for them, you know, happiness as an adult
[11:04]meant financial security and they just didn't see how I was going to be financially secure doing
[11:12]anything in the arts. So that was always attention with our relationship and even though they were
[11:20]supportive in, you know, they lent me money when I needed it. And they never, you know,
[11:25]cut me off or said, like, if you do this, we're not going to talk to you anymore. It was now it
[11:29]wasn't like that. But, but I felt throughout my television writing career that they just were
[11:35]sort of baffled by what I was doing that they didn't really get it. And I always felt like
[11:40]they were kind of ashamed of me because I wasn't doing what all their friends kids were doing,
[11:45]you know, like, so that was really hard. And it wasn't until I went to therapy and just started
[11:51]working on my own feelings, like my own feelings of self esteem, you know, and coming to accept
[11:59]myself devoid of any like accomplishments or, you know, external successes. When I've learned to
[12:06]love myself just for who I was as a person, that's when my relationship with my parents started to
[12:12]change because I wasn't so desperate to prove myself to them, you know, then I could just be with
[12:17]them. And at that point, like, I was able to take in their love for me and not see them as constantly
[12:25]judging me and criticizing. Interesting. I feel like you need to post that therapist numbers
[12:30]somewhere for other people's may need. And the therapist number of accomplishments in the show
[12:37]notes of this podcast episode will be in referral line. Oh, my goodness. Well, that's that's good.
[12:46]Therapy at work. Success. And talk a little bit about your relationships and particularly the one
[12:55]major relationship, which comes early on. It is a shaping force throughout the story. Yeah.
[13:00]So I dated another TV writer. He wrote TV and films. But I met him when I was 18. And he was
[13:10]working as an NBC page. And I went to to get tickets to the Letterman show. And that that was like,
[13:18]you know, I was like in college and I had been a fan of the show. And so I wanted to go to the show.
[13:23]Went to NBC to get tickets. And that's how I met him. And he was the one who who told me,
[13:29]you know, because I asked him how do you how would I get an internship at the Letterman show? And he
[13:33]told me just write a letter. And so I ended up dating him after I graduated. And we went,
[13:39]we were together for 10 years. And our relationship was very much based on that sort of like
[13:46]connection that we had to show business. And he helped me a lot. And I mean, he was the one who
[13:53]first told me how to get an internship. And, you know, he helped me tremendously throughout my career.
[13:59]But he also was totally obsessed with work. And I mean, I think this is pretty common in the
[14:09]entertainment industry, because that business takes so much dedication. And he just
[14:15]has to devote your whole life to it. And he definitely did that. And when I started to,
[14:22]you know, become disillusioned with the business. And I started to expand my interests into other
[14:28]things. You know, we started to drift apart. And that was really difficult, because, you know, his
[14:34]whole life was work. And I just didn't want my life to be like that anymore. So, I mean, does that answer
[14:40]your question? Yes. I just like hearing about everybody else's relationship. So, I'm just like completely
[14:45]nosy is really what's going on. I structure this podcast. But really, I'm just like, let me snoop
[14:51]into your private life to tell you what's going on. Well, I mean, I think that a lot of people will
[14:56]be able to relate to that relationship, even if they haven't worked in entertainment, because
[15:02]so many people, I think are, you know, in relationship with like really workaholic people. And
[15:09]that can be so hard to navigate, you know, especially when one person stops being a workaholic.
[15:18]And the other one is still a workaholic, then that's a big problem. You think that's like a deal
[15:23]breaker or there tips for the non-workaholic? Or the workaholic?
[15:30]Dear Patty, I'm getting a sense that this might be a little bit more personal.
[15:36]But it wasn't until you framed it that way. And I was like, God, I didn't have any tip. My only tip
[15:44]was that I had to get out of that relationship. But I'm hoping I hope that other people
[15:50]can learn how to make it work, because, you know, it's not that I didn't love him. You know,
[15:54]I mean, love is, it's just one part of the relationship, right? Yeah. Yeah. Little did you know,
[16:00]you were going to be put on the spot for your dating advice. But anyway,
[16:03]you never know what you're going to get moving on. So post TV world, you have become this like
[16:11]master seamstress or not seems just the wrong word. What do you call? So it is. No, it's a seamstress.
[16:16]It is. Yeah. Talk about that. And where did that come from? And what are you doing with that
[16:21]line of business and all that? Because you're so creative and you're so amazing. Oh, thank you.
[16:26]It's not a business. It's really not. It's just a hobby. But yeah, I started sewing a few,
[16:32]I say a few years ago, but it was really more like 15 years ago or something. And I just, you know,
[16:38]it was kind of just a whim. I was never interested in sewing before. And then I just bought this sewing
[16:44]machine on a whim. And I was actually, I got it because I was going to Burning Man and I was going
[16:51]to decorate my bike. And I was going to put fur on my bike to make it look like Chewbacca.
[16:56]Okay, this is a whole, this is going off on a long tangent. But, but anyway, I bought the sewing
[17:04]machine to decorate my bike. And then I realized, oh my God, I don't know. I can't even thread
[17:09]this machine. Like it took me half an hour just to thread the machine. And then I realized I needed
[17:14]to take some lessons. So I found a small independent sewing studio in LA. And I just started taking
[17:21]lessons. And I fell in love with it. I had this really great teacher who was just really fun. And
[17:27]she explained it in a way that was like easy. And, and I just started making, you know, pajama,
[17:33]I must have made pajama pants for like every person that I knew. And then I started taking
[17:38]more and more advanced classes. And so, you know, now I can make dresses and I can make shirts and,
[17:43]you know, costumes and things like that. But it's, it's just a joy because it uses a different
[17:49]part of my brain than writing, you know. And it kind of reminds me of drawing and painting,
[17:56]which is something that I used to do when I was a kid. And then I just, I, you know, stopped doing it
[18:01]when I got to college because I was like, I need to study. I need to like be serious, you know.
[18:07]But I never lost that sort of, you know, drive to do creative things that were not necessarily
[18:13]verbal. So that's the void that sewing fills for me, you know. And it's just fun. And I,
[18:19]you know, I tried selling some things and, you know, I sold a few things. But I, I really honestly
[18:25]feel like I don't want to turn it into a job because it for me, it's, it's just a, it's a hobby
[18:32]and it's an outlet, a recreational outlet that I don't want to, you know, I still want to lose that
[18:40]feeling of fun and freedom that I have. Although there is a huge demand for Chewbacca,
[18:46]bike outfitting. So now you could be the person. Let me tell you, let me tell you,
[18:52]that bike was so cool. And it actually got stolen. That's how cool it was. Wow.
[19:03]Wow. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, when you are not outfitting bikes and giving yourself how to make
[19:10]rocks and writing beautiful memoirs, what are you doing? And where do you want your life to go?
[19:15]obviously you have this book in the book marketing and all of that. But like, yeah, I don't know.
[19:19]What are your hopes and dreams for the next couple of years? I don't know. That's okay. I
[19:26]honestly, I honestly don't know. I mean, I know that I would like to write another book. I mean,
[19:32]writing is definitely going to be a part of my life. I think, you know, forever. It's at this point,
[19:38]it's pretty obvious that I'm not going to get rid of it. But I don't really, I don't like make
[19:44]lots of plans or I don't have a lot of goals. You know, I just, I know that sounds lame.
[19:52]I'm not, no one's judging. Hey, microphone here. Are you an eye judging? I don't think we're not judging you.
[20:00]I know. I mean, sometimes I realize what it must sound like to people, like, oh, I'm just going to take life as it comes, but it's honestly that's what it is.
[20:10]And maybe it was because when I was growing up, I was so ambitious.
[20:16]And I had so many goals. I mean, I remember like, you know, coming up with lists of goals, you know, when I was very young.
[20:25]I just got tired of doing that, you know, like, I just got tired of putting all that pressure on myself. And so now I've gone kind of in the opposite direction where I'm just like not ambitious at all.
[20:38]And I all I know is that whatever I do in the next few years, I just want it to be creative and I want it to be, you know, I want it to feel organic.
[20:46]I think we might need the therapist back on the line to unpack this relationship with ambition.
[20:53]I think that's great. I mean, as long as you're happy. Are you happy? Yeah. I am. I am very happy. There you go. It's awesome. Plus this book is coming out at the perfect time. Everybody in the world is talking about writing this strike.
[21:09]Like all of these details which had been not mainstream are now in front of everyone's face constantly. How do you feel about that coming out at the same time. And just the fact that all this attention is on this industry.
[21:22]I'm really glad that there is attention put being put on this. I really am because.
[21:29]I mean, you know, so much of this stuff that the writer's strike is about is like, these are issues that, you know, we were dealing with for years and years and years and the general public didn't really know about it.
[21:45]Because all they see is the finished product and, and, and as a consumer of entertainment, you don't necessarily want to know how the sausage is made.
[21:54]But there's some like gnarly stuff that's happening in that sausage factory, you know what I mean? And I think that it's good that people are seeing that only only because you know, all everybody like everybody wants to be treated with respect in the work that they do.
[22:11]And writers should not be, you know, Hollywood writers should not be exempt from that. You know, I mean, it used to be that when I worked in TV, you know, a lot of people would sort of justify the sort of abusive, you know, culture or whatever by saying, well, at least we make a lot of money.
[22:29]You know, but now they can't even say that because they're not like most writers aren't making a lot of money anymore. But it's not just about the money. It's really more about I think just the general.
[22:41]You know, culture in which the writer's contribution is just not valued by, you know, the people at the top, which is the shame because without the writers, what would you even have.
[22:51]Exactly. Yeah. But everybody in Hollywood thinks that they're the hub, you know, that they're the ones that are, you know, creating everything right like the writers think that they're the ones and the actors think that they're the ones and the producers think that they're the, you know, everybody thinks that they're the center of it.
[23:10]It's a collaboration like you can't have one without the other, you know, every part of it is is interdependent. But, you know, the writers have generally been overlooked in a lot of this. And I just think that this not fair.
[23:24]Yeah.
[23:25]Well, let's see what happens. Maybe by the time this airs.
[23:27]Well, I'll be resolved. Oh, I hope so. Yeah, that would be amazing.
[23:31]I think that's a great advice for aspiring authors. Oh, boy. You know, it's, it's hard to give generalized advice because like what advice for, for one writer would be the opposite advice for another writer.
[23:45]If I had to say one piece of advice. I'll just say a piece of advice that I wish I had had. And it's that, you know, just to.
[23:55]To really be careful about sharing your work with other people too early.
[24:02]You know, and I think the reason that I say that is because even though feedback is really important and, you know, you want to get feedback at some point.
[24:11]I think if you do it too early in the process, it can it can really affect your motivation to finish the project.
[24:20]You know, for me, that was definitely the case. Like, I didn't tell anybody I was working on this book for like years.
[24:29]You know, or I would just be very general about it, you know, but like if somebody really wanted to get into, you know, the details of it, I just, I just had to be like, I'm sorry, I can't, I just can't talk about it right now.
[24:41]And I'm so glad that I did that because it was so hard to even just get that first draft on paper.
[24:50]And I just really needed the safety and the privacy to do that, you know, because a new idea is like it's like a newborn baby, you know, like you have to really coddle it before you, you let it out into the world.
[25:04]So I think that's the advice I would give to people starting out.
[25:08]And for somebody who's starting out in the screenwriting world wants to be a screenwriter. What about that, what would you say to them?
[25:15]Don't do it.
[25:20]I've given that advice a lot of times and nobody listens.
[25:24]No, people who want to do it, they will not listen if you tell them not to.
[25:28]I would say just be prepared, you know, be prepared for a lot of rejection.
[25:36]And just, you know, you're going to have to grow a thick skin if you want to survive.
[25:41]And that's, that can be really hard because as a writer, you have to be vulnerable and sensitive.
[25:47]But at the same time to work in that business, you have to have a thick skin. So it's just a, it's a really hard contradiction to live with.
[25:55]And that's, it's part of the reason that I left.
[25:57]But that's, you know, pretty much everybody I've met who's been successful in the business has a combination of those things.
[26:05]Interesting. Yeah, I have to say we've gotten a lot of resumes lately of people who are saying, I thought I wanted to be a screenwriter, but actually I'm interested in editorial.
[26:15]Yeah, interesting.
[26:17]So we'll see if the tides end of shifting completely. That would be cool. Or send what would we watch on TV.
[26:26]All right, Patty, congratulations on end credits. Sorry, this interview took us all over the place. But whatever you always fun.
[26:33]And I'm just so proud and excited to be affiliated with this book.
[26:37]You're saying such a great writer and your story so interesting and so important and really awesome. So thanks for letting to be books come along for the ride.
[26:46]Oh my God. No, I mean, thank you. Thank you for making this process so, so fun. It really has been amazing.
[26:54]Oh, God, I'm so glad. Amazing. Well, congratulations.
[26:58]Thanks, Debbie.
[26:59]Thank you too. Okay. Bye, Patty. Bye.
[27:03]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:07]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibbowens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[27:19]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan Beck, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[27:23]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.