Ruta Sepetys, YOU: The Story: A Writer's Guide to Craft Through Memory
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Where Disappetis is the author of You, The Story, a writer's guide to craft through memory
[1:08]guest hosted by Julie Chavez, author of Everyone But My Self, which comes out in January
[1:12]of 2024 from Zippy Books and the host of Ask a Library in the Podcast.
[1:18]Where Disappetis was actually on this podcast already and I had the pleasure of interviewing
[1:21]her already.
[1:22]So Julie took it this time.
[1:23]Where Disappetis is internationally acclaimed number one New York Times bestselling author
[1:27]of historical fiction published in over 60 countries and 40 languages.
[1:32]Add Disappetis is considered across over novelists as her books are read by both students
[1:36]and adults worldwide.
[1:38]Winner of the Carnegie Medal, Ruda, is renowned for giving voice to underrepresented
[1:42]history and those who experienced it.
[1:45]Her books have won or been shortlisted for over 40 book prizes and they're included on
[1:50]over 30 state reading lists and are currently in development for film and television.
[1:56]Wow.
[1:57]Ruda is the daughter of a Lithuanian refugee born in Michigan.
[2:01]She was raised in a family of artists, readers and music lovers.
[2:05]Ruda is passionate about the power of history and story to foster global dialogue and connectivity.
[2:11]She has been invited to present at NATO, European Parliament, the US Capitol, the Library
[2:15]of Congress, and embassies worldwide.
[2:18]She was awarded the Rockefeller Foundation's prestigious Bellagio Fellowship for her studies
[2:22]on human resilience.
[2:23]The New York Times Book Review declared, Ruda Cappetis acts as champion of the interstitial
[2:28]people so often ignored, whole populations lost in the cracks of history.
[2:34]As if that wasn't enough, Ruda was bestowed the cross of the night of the order by the
[2:38]President of Lithuania for contributions to education and memory preservation and was recently
[2:43]honored with a postage stamp containing her image.
[2:47]This is definitely the first author I've had on this podcast whose face was on a stamp.
[2:51]I need to put that down somewhere.
[2:53]Anyway, she is extremely proud to be of Baltic Heritage, even if that means she has a name
[2:57]no one could pronounce Ruda lives with her family in the hills of Tennessee.
[3:01]Ruda, I'm so glad you're here today.
[3:04]Welcome to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[3:06]Thank you for having me.
[3:08]I'm so thrilled.
[3:10]I was telling you right before we started recording.
[3:12]I was familiar with you before I got the opportunity to interview for Zibi's podcast.
[3:18]And so I'm just so happy that we get to talk about you and your craft and this book,
[3:26]you, the story, a writer's guide to craft through memory.
[3:30]Oh, I'm so excited.
[3:32]Let's dig in.
[3:33]Yes.
[3:34]Okay.
[3:35]I want to start by saying I'm happy to be talking to you because I've been having you
[3:37]talk at me all week because I've been listening to the audiobook.
[3:42]And I have to start there.
[3:43]I really, I mean, this will be a popular opinion.
[3:47]I want everyone to get the audiobook and the print book of this book because listening
[3:53]to you was such an incredible experience.
[3:57]And you just really pick up on your passion and your love.
[4:00]And there's such grace in the way you talk in this book, but then also in your speech.
[4:07]I mean, I felt as an adult writer, I thought, oh my gosh, this is so good for me to literally
[4:13]hear in my ears that I don't have to strive for perfection, that there's work involved
[4:19]in this craft.
[4:20]I mean, all these things.
[4:21]So I feel like this book is clearly geared a little bit younger in general, but I got just
[4:29]as much from it.
[4:30]And I think so much of it was listening to you.
[4:34]But then I needed the print book because then I would go and tag the print book to go
[4:38]back to.
[4:39]You've created all that to say, you have created a beautiful, valuable resource.
[4:45]So congratulations.
[4:46]I'm so, I can't wait to put it in the hands of all the young writers I know, but really
[4:50]any writer.
[4:51]Oh, that's so generous of you.
[4:53]And I mean, the audio when my publisher came to me and said, you know, we think we'd
[4:59]like you to narrate the audiobook.
[5:01]First response was no.
[5:02]Oh my gosh, it's so pass.
[5:04]Well, because there's no hiding.
[5:08]And I'm, I'm encouraging writers in this book as I'm sure we'll talk about.
[5:13]You know, to reflect on some memories and it was one thing to write the book.
[5:18]But as I was narrating it, I could hear where I was laughing and the director just kept
[5:24]waving me on like we're going to keep it.
[5:25]I'm, you're going to keep me laughing and you can hear kind of when I'm breaking up a little
[5:29]bit.
[5:30]And when I'm emotional.
[5:31]So it's kind of a vulnerable experience to do the audio.
[5:34]I could understand that.
[5:35]I mean, and especially because you have so many stories interwoven in this book and really
[5:42]a lot of personal narrative that you've included that's extremely powerful.
[5:47]And I think speaks to the value of the book, but I could see how that would be.
[5:52]Those are some really tender things.
[5:55]And to write about it is one thing.
[5:57]And that is its own emotional experience, but then to read that back to yourself, I can
[6:01]see how that would have been bringing out additional layers for you.
[6:05]Definitely.
[6:06]It did, but also it was very powerful because it made me reflect on the work I do with
[6:12]my novels to create my historical novels.
[6:15]I interview 50 to 100 people and they share their experiences with me.
[6:23]So it really gave me a bit of a taste of what I'm asking these survivors and true witnesses
[6:30]to do.
[6:31]It's kind of instructive as well for me.
[6:33]That makes sense a little almost humility, not in the sense of being humbled, but just
[6:38]that approach of just a reminder of how we carry memory and how we share that.
[6:44]So.
[6:45]Exactly.
[6:46]Mm.
[6:47]Thank you for sharing that.
[6:48]I'm really, well, I'm very glad that they convinced you to record it because I think
[6:54]you were the best one to do it without a doubt as I was listening.
[6:57]So I really, I really thought it was well done.
[6:59]I want to start by just kind of going through a few of the things that stood out to me.
[7:04]Well, first of all, let's start here since this is a craft book.
[7:08]Why did you want to write this?
[7:11]What at this point in your career felt like, okay, this is the next thing I want to do?
[7:16]Because I am such a believer that sharing our stories facilitates human understanding.
[7:23]I have seen it with the novels that I have written where together with the witnesses
[7:31]and the survivors were taking underrepresented history.
[7:34]And when people read the book and learn of it, they think, oh my gosh, why did I not know
[7:38]this?
[7:39]And maybe they have a better sense of someone they know in their community who is Lithuanian,
[7:44]Romanian, Spanish, filling the blank of one of my books.
[7:48]And people often ask, how I do what I do and how I infuse a vivid depth of feeling
[7:55]into the fiction.
[7:57]That depth of feeling when we're for a writer, that comes from our own experience, right?
[8:03]If we're writing about being heartbroken or hopeful, what we're doing is reflecting
[8:09]on how we felt and then infusing that into the fiction.
[8:14]So really, my goal is to assure everybody that they can do what I'm doing.
[8:20]And even if they're not a storyteller, they still have a story.
[8:23]And I think every adult wishes that we had better archived our family story, our parent
[8:28]story, our grandparent story.
[8:31]Yes.
[8:32]That is so true.
[8:33]That's what I think people should know is that this really isn't only a book for writers.
[8:38]It really is a book for everyone because to your point, it's so true.
[8:43]I mean, we're connected by story and we do want to keep those.
[8:47]So that's a beautiful sentiment and neat to hear you talk about the ways that not only
[8:51]your books, but now this are bringing that out.
[8:54]Yeah, we all have this amazing compost of experiences.
[8:59]And sometimes it's just a matter of helping people recognize story.
[9:04]Some people don't even realize that a day is a story and a year is a story.
[9:10]And so to give them tools and framework to identify story in their life.
[9:15]Yes, it was.
[9:17]And it's so well done.
[9:18]Like I said, I mean, you have, so you have the chapter and then you have a recap, which
[9:23]is great for anyone who has this short term memory situation like Dory and myself.
[9:30]And then you have the writing exercises and questions to answer.
[9:34]So it really is not only instructive but reflective.
[9:39]And so I really like the way that you structured it.
[9:42]And also I love the different sections that you chose like perspective.
[9:47]Some of the other ones, I was really stuck on perspective for a while because I wanted
[9:50]to reread it dialogue, research, plot, character development.
[9:55]And also I have to say you do a really good job of I think it was in the.
[10:00]a plot chapter, I might be wrong.
[10:03]But main point here is that I was so impressed
[10:07]that when you were talking about where to begin
[10:09]and you said that depends on you.
[10:11]I mean, you gave such, this whole book is full of,
[10:16]like you said, you're asking people to think about
[10:18]how they can best and how they would like to express things.
[10:22]It's just so freeing for those of us that
[10:24]are always wanting a system to say,
[10:26]you can trust your intuition and your story leads you
[10:29]to how it needs to be told.
[10:30]And you just did such a good job.
[10:32]I love it.
[10:33]Thank you.
[10:33]And I wanted to be accessible because, you know,
[10:36]you brought up perspective.
[10:38]And I do think that, you know,
[10:41]the stories we tell about ourself,
[10:44]that actually frames our identity construction,
[10:47]doesn't it?
[10:48]I mean, if someone asks us if a book was written about your life,
[10:53]what would the title be, right?
[10:55]And would it be fiction?
[10:57]Would it be non-fiction?
[10:58]And so I wanted to write something accessible.
[11:00]People often tell me, I don't know where to start.
[11:02]It's like, there are lots of places to start.
[11:06]And the rules are there are no rules.
[11:09]It's so true that you really do a good job
[11:12]of capturing that in this, but then turning it around
[11:15]to where it's not only is there no place to start,
[11:18]that's not an overwhelming fact.
[11:20]It's a freeing fact because it allows you to step
[11:23]into whatever you need to do next.
[11:26]I have a question for you, related.
[11:28]I think the reason I got hung up on perspective
[11:31]and I listened to it and then I went back
[11:33]and read sections of it.
[11:34]I mean, I was, I was in deep.
[11:36]I really wanted to talk to you about regret
[11:40]because I loved when you were talking about think about a mistake.
[11:43]Now go back and think of it as not a mistake.
[11:46]Now, are you a person who just personally,
[11:50]how do you have regrets?
[11:52]Do you think about things that way?
[11:54]Do you always try and reframe?
[11:56]I was just curious about that when I read that.
[11:59]Oh, I definitely, I definitely have regrets.
[12:02]I also am someone who kind of beats myself up about something
[12:05]when I think, oh, I didn't, that was,
[12:08]I wish I wouldn't have done that
[12:09]or I did that the wrong way or but.
[12:12]I always, and I focus on this in the book
[12:15]about failure, the concept, what is a failure?
[12:20]And so for me, with a regret,
[12:22]I'm always trying to, as you said, reframe it.
[12:27]And so, okay, it's failure and regret.
[12:29]Is it a forest of exploration, you know,
[12:32]something we can learn from and learn within?
[12:35]Or is it just a suck hole of soul death?
[12:39]And I don't wanna get caught in the suck hole of soul death.
[12:43]So I look at it and I say, wait a minute
[12:46]because oftentimes mistakes I've made
[12:48]and I have made a lot of them.
[12:50]I mean, I talk in the book about working
[12:52]in the music industry and all these fiascos.
[12:54]And, but when I go back to them,
[12:56]oftentimes after something that I found,
[13:00]oh, regrettable or I thought was a mistake,
[13:03]there's something good that came from that, you know?
[13:05]And that's what I try to focus on.
[13:07]And that's what I want, you know,
[13:09]people to focus on as well.
[13:11]That's where we learn.
[13:12]Oh, 100%.
[13:14]Yeah, I'm a definite, let me rethink my mistakes.
[13:17]You know, my favorite is in the middle of the night,
[13:19]but really I can do it any time.
[13:21]I'm available for it all throughout the day.
[13:23]I know, that's me too.
[13:25]Waking up in the middle of the night,
[13:26]laying there in the dark.
[13:27]Thank you.
[13:28]Oh my God.
[13:29]And that's when I realize things too.
[13:30]I mean, wake up in the middle of the night
[13:32]and realize, oh my goodness.
[13:34]Why did I say this?
[13:35]I mean, yeah, yeah, your poor brain, right?
[13:39]Our poor brains, they're just so busy and silly.
[13:43]I have a question for you.
[13:44]So you have, I mean, you are a person
[13:47]who really has a rich writing career, I would say.
[13:50]Like you've written many books.
[13:52]They've been very popular.
[13:53]I think they've also meant a lot to many people,
[13:57]which is the most, I think, beautiful thing
[13:59]that a writing career can do is to have books
[14:03]that are precious to people.
[14:04]And yours absolutely are.
[14:06]Is there anything in your career that you would have,
[14:10]that you wish you would have done earlier
[14:12]or that you wish you'd waited to do?
[14:16]Oh, that's a,
[14:17]oh wow, that's such a great question.
[14:19]Yes, prior to becoming a novelist,
[14:21]I spent over 20 years working in the music business,
[14:25]working with songwriters and rock bands
[14:27]and recording artists, helping them to still story
[14:31]into song.
[14:32]And I wish that I would have had the courage
[14:35]because I always wanted to be a writer.
[14:37]From the time I was in third grade,
[14:38]I wrote my first book, The Adventures of Betsy.
[14:40]And I didn't have that creative courage.
[14:44]I was helping other people, you know, discover their courage
[14:49]and express their stories,
[14:50]but it took me too long, I think,
[14:52]or a bit longer than it should have,
[14:54]I'm not sure, but to really find my own.
[14:58]And then something I wished I would have waited on.
[15:00]So then when I did find courage to come back to writing,
[15:05]I had written this humorous middle grade mystery.
[15:09]And I'm part of a writing group
[15:10]that I met through a writer's organization,
[15:13]S-C-B-W-I, and we've been together nearly 20 years now.
[15:16]And my writer's group told me
[15:19]when I had a first draft of this book.
[15:22]Yeah, it's good, but it needs some work.
[15:25]I spent good money to send bad pages
[15:29]to an editor at a conference.
[15:31]And let's just say, it did not go well.
[15:34]And so I think I was so excited.
[15:37]I have a draft, I have a draft, I've got a book.
[15:40]And now I know how important revision is.
[15:44]So finding that creative courage a little sooner
[15:48]and waiting a little longer to send out those first pages.
[15:50]I think there's a lot of wisdom there.
[15:53]I don't think anyone can really appreciate
[15:56]the power of revision though,
[15:58]until you've gone through it the first few times, right?
[16:00]Until you see what it actually does to the work,
[16:04]it can just feel like more work to the same end
[16:08]as opposed to we're actually moving this needle forward.
[16:12]Well, yes, and for me, actually that pause,
[16:16]after that bad, you know, negative critique
[16:19]with an editor at a conference,
[16:22]I did revise and the manuscript was actually requested
[16:26]by a publisher.
[16:27]And mind you, this was in a different genre.
[16:29]This was a middle grade mystery.
[16:31]And so I contacted an agent and I said,
[16:33]oh, I'm seeking representation
[16:35]because the book I've written has been requested
[16:37]by a publisher and the agents and sure send it.
[16:40]And at the last minute,
[16:42]I decided to also include five pages
[16:45]of this historical level that I had been working on
[16:48]and the agent contacted me and he said,
[16:51]this middle grade mystery,
[16:53]I can see why the publisher is requesting it
[16:56]and he said, but these lonely five pages,
[16:59]your authentic voice is in these pages, Ruta,
[17:04]you wanna write historical fiction,
[17:06]why aren't you doing that?
[17:07]And oh my goodness, this agent I respected.
[17:10]And so that pause of wait a minute,
[17:13]I'm not gonna just send the book
[17:15]to the publisher right away.
[17:16]I mean, my authentic voice is in historical fiction.
[17:20]And I learned I was writing humor
[17:22]because I was trying to distract, you know,
[17:25]people away from some heartfelt messages,
[17:28]things that I felt it was easier to cope with them
[17:30]through humor than really going at them straight on
[17:33]through historical fiction.
[17:34]Interesting.
[17:36]I loved that story in the book.
[17:38]I just thought, oh man, I always find myself
[17:40]going back to stories where, you know,
[17:42]a small adjustment or a small choice
[17:46]brings a totally new track.
[17:49]And then also the people that appear in our lives
[17:52]that say something at the right moment
[17:55]that just changes everything.
[17:57]I love hearing about that.
[17:59]Me too, but also, you know, we have to be open to it.
[18:03]You know, I discussed in the book
[18:05]that when I was younger, feedback really,
[18:09]the way I interpreted feedback sometimes
[18:12]was based on, as I said, just a few moments ago,
[18:17]like my own identity construction.
[18:20]I don't wanna give away a story in the book.
[18:21]People can read it, but I had the opportunity
[18:23]to have lunch with this major music mogul.
[18:26]And he gave me some feedback that really dented me,
[18:30]that really hurt me, only later to realize, you know,
[18:35]that I had misinterpreted that feedback.
[18:39]And something, I thought it was criticism,
[18:41]but it was actually, you know, constructive input.
[18:44]So also, I think the time that we're at
[18:46]and how we're interpreting feedback
[18:48]and what these stories are that we tell about ourselves,
[18:51]they're all contributing factors.
[18:53]Yes, I got to do a writing coaching session
[18:56]with Camille Pagon a little while back.
[18:58]And she asked the question, what are you making that mean?
[19:02]And it's so true where if someone gives you feedback
[19:06]and then I'm using that to create some story
[19:09]in my head about how, you know, I'm garbage at XYZ,
[19:13]then suddenly I have now made that mean something
[19:16]that it didn't mean.
[19:17]Exactly.
[19:19]I think approaching it with a sense of neutrality
[19:21]and true openness, you're exactly right,
[19:23]as opposed to defense.
[19:24]Yes, exactly.
[19:26]And I want people who are listening
[19:27]to think about things, maybe input that they've gotten
[19:31]or comments or feedback.
[19:33]And what did they make that mean?
[19:35]In the words of your, you know, writing?
[19:37]Yeah.
[19:38]You know, what do we make things mean?
[19:41]I don't know, I think it's a valuable exercise.
[19:43]It is in all parts of life.
[19:45]And I do know I definitely like to make things mean way more
[19:50]when my husband gives me feedback
[19:51]because I think it makes life so much more interesting.
[19:54]Right.
[19:55]Yeah.
[19:57]Oh, definitely.
[19:58]You know, it's that way.
[19:59]Yeah, other people.
[20:00]going to be totally reasonable, but him, no, pass or not.
[20:03]It's not happening.
[20:04]It's the same with me with my siblings.
[20:05]If it's my siblings, the scale just jumps up.
[20:09]Yep.
[20:09]How dare you say that to me.
[20:12]OK, so here's a question.
[20:13]I know we talked about perspective because it really
[20:16]stayed with me.
[20:17]What was your favorite section to write in the book?
[20:19]Oh, my favorite section to write in the book.
[20:22]Oh, gosh.
[20:23]I mean, a section that really surprised me to write,
[20:28]because I wrote down, oh, I'm going to have a section on plot,
[20:31]and I'm going to have one on voice, the elusive voice,
[20:34]and dialogue, and character development.
[20:37]It was the dialogue section that really surprised me.
[20:42]Because there are conversations we remember.
[20:46]There are conversations we wish we could forget,
[20:48]and there are conversations we never got to have.
[20:52]And as I went into writing that dialogue section,
[20:55]I had an idea of what I was going to write about.
[20:59]And then that changed.
[21:01]And I was reflecting on some interesting conversations
[21:05]that led me to realize that sometimes when we revisit,
[21:11]some of those old conversations, they
[21:14]can bring new meaning.
[21:17]And I did that and reflected on some conversations
[21:19]that I had with my father.
[21:22]And that was probably the most emotional section
[21:25]for me to read in the book.
[21:27]But that was a section that surprised me
[21:30]and the part that I loved writing the most
[21:32]was probably when I'm talking about character development.
[21:35]As an example, I give to illustrate.
[21:37]I share some stories about my own teenage self
[21:41]when, at 13, I decided that I wanted
[21:45]to live in a poop cocoon.
[21:48]And I'm not going to give it away for readers.
[21:50]This is, I mean, talk about turning yourself
[21:52]inside out for the sake of this you really did.
[21:55]Yes.
[21:56]So that was my favorite part.
[21:58]Why was it?
[21:59]Because at the time that I was going through it,
[22:01]my teenage self, it was so dramatic for me
[22:04]what I was describing.
[22:06]But now, with a buffer of time and a different altitude,
[22:11]I was actually laughing at some of these experiences.
[22:15]And that made me realize that it was not only maybe
[22:19]a deeply lived experience, but a healed experience.
[22:24]And that's what writing can do for us.
[22:26]Sometimes, we have these realizations asked for writing.
[22:30]And so that was probably my favorite part
[22:32]describing my nutty teenage self.
[22:36]You had so many great stories about your teenage self.
[22:40]It just made me think back to my own,
[22:43]but a willingness to revisit those.
[22:46]Because I know I'm someone that never kept a journal
[22:48]because I should use a growth mindset here,
[22:52]something I'm working on, not yet,
[22:55]but basically this idea that I have a hard time looking back
[22:59]because I tend to overanalyze mistakes
[23:01]or because I really zone in on the wrong things.
[23:05]So it was like I didn't want to make a record
[23:07]of my own stupidity and then write it in a form
[23:09]that I could look at later.
[23:11]But a willingness to revisit that,
[23:14]you're right, it can become a healed experience
[23:17]because you see it with a different filter now.
[23:20]I mean, we're adults and it's,
[23:22]you have so much more grace and wisdom to revisit that.
[23:26]So what a wonderful thing,
[23:28]as opposed to thinking, I'm looking back to judge this.
[23:31]It's, I'm looking back to explore it
[23:33]to mine it to see what's there.
[23:35]Exactly.
[23:36]And I kept telling myself, you know, okay,
[23:38]don't write to condemn, write to comprehend.
[23:42]And that's what was happening
[23:44]is I was writing through some of these things
[23:46]and I was laughing.
[23:48]And again, I just want to reassure everybody
[23:51]that you all have, like I say,
[23:54]this compost of experiences to draw from
[23:56]and it's how you reflect upon it
[23:59]and describe it that makes it interesting.
[24:01]Not necessarily that you had to travel
[24:03]to some far fun place or experience, you know,
[24:07]something really miraculous.
[24:08]No, the way you feel is miraculous
[24:11]and the way you describe it, that can be miraculous too.
[24:14]Yes.
[24:15]I really like how you talked about familiarity
[24:18]working against us in that way,
[24:21]where it takes the shine off of things
[24:23]and we forget the wonderful things
[24:27]and the miraculous things
[24:28]and all of these extraordinary things
[24:31]that happen in our lives.
[24:33]So I think familiarity kind of being an enemy
[24:35]was really something that stood out to me.
[24:37]Thank you, I agree with that, yeah.
[24:40]I liked the, and Patrick quote that you included.
[24:44]Why is it that we understand playing the cello
[24:46]will require work,
[24:47]but we attribute writing to the magic of inspiration?
[24:51]I mean, Anne is just brilliant first of all,
[24:55]but that quote really stuck with me
[24:57]because often when I do events,
[24:59]people will ask questions that imply that there is,
[25:04]you know, really the muse is more of a contributor
[25:07]than a work ethic.
[25:08]Will they say, well, do you light a candle
[25:11]or do you, you know, what is your, you know,
[25:13]the process?
[25:14]Oh, and of course I do all the cliche things.
[25:16]You know, I write it a cabin in the woods
[25:19]and I like candles and I drink tea.
[25:20]I do all of those things,
[25:22]but honestly, that's not where the mojo is.
[25:26]The mojo is in the motivation
[25:28]and just showing up every day and saying,
[25:31]this is tough and I'm gonna do it
[25:33]and I'm gonna write and I'm gonna rewrite.
[25:35]And so yeah, I think it's interesting
[25:38]and I wanted to include that
[25:39]because so many people do ask questions that imply
[25:43]that they think it's more muse and less hard work
[25:47]and that's not the case.
[25:49]Now, do you ever find yourself falling into that trap?
[25:52]Or is that something that doesn't happen for you anymore now
[25:55]that you are farther along in your process?
[25:59]Well, what I found is something that I imagine
[26:02]that people who might be any sort of athlete or artist
[26:07]you don't feel like maybe showing up
[26:09]or you don't feel like going for the runner,
[26:11]you don't feel like practicing, you don't feel,
[26:13]and then you do it and you show up and you begin
[26:16]and man, you can have a great day
[26:18]and it's like, oh, wow.
[26:19]So that motivation leads to inspiration.
[26:22]And what I find is that if I show up
[26:25]and I start to do the work, the muse arrives
[26:28]and then my heart breaks open and the world breaks up
[26:33]and I think, oh my gosh, this is amazing.
[26:35]This is so fun and I'm having a great time.
[26:37]And so yeah, I definitely subscribed to that.
[26:41]I know now what's possible.
[26:43]And that's why with my books even,
[26:45]history provides kind of a framework or a scaffolding,
[26:49]but I don't outline too tightly
[26:52]because I love that creative process.
[26:55]And when the muse does show up and say,
[26:57]hey, what if you did this?
[26:58]And I think, oh my gosh, I love that idea.
[27:01]So yeah, that's really neat to hear.
[27:04]Now, what do you think?
[27:07]So you're starting to talk about this book with people.
[27:10]And I would guess that you have some younger people
[27:13]that you're talking with about it and older.
[27:16]But what's your, I mean, it's so hard to distill it.
[27:20]Obviously the main takeaway is you need this book
[27:23]and you should buy it, but also like, what is,
[27:27]I mean, what do you tell a kid or a young person
[27:30]or a person who's just starting out riding
[27:31]if you're trying to distill it down?
[27:34]What's the one thing you would start with, I guess?
[27:38]I would love for them to know that writing well
[27:43]is less about what you've achieved
[27:46]or how you were educated or these interesting places
[27:49]you've traveled to.
[27:50]Writing well is about our emotions and our feelings
[27:54]and how we express them and that if you have felt deeply,
[28:00]you have lived deeply and you're a creative person
[28:04]of courage and you have the tools to be a writer.
[28:08]Any deep feeling person has the tools to be a writer.
[28:11]So that's the main takeaway and the point
[28:14]I want them to know that everyone has a story
[28:18]and neuroscience has proved that we are all creative.
[28:23]So the stories we tell ourselves of, oh, I'm not creative
[28:26]and there are lots of ways to tell a story.
[28:28]Maybe they don't want to write a novel.
[28:30]Maybe they want to write a screenplay, a graphic novel.
[28:32]Maybe they want to do some sort of mixed media project.
[28:35]Maybe, you know, they want a choreographed dance.
[28:37]You know, however, they're going to express that story.
[28:40]Oh, I really like that because I'm hearing you talk about
[28:44]the joy that's found in creation where you are a creator
[28:49]and so how do you bring to the world
[28:53]what only you can bring?
[28:55]And I'm a big believer in not only how do I bring to the world,
[29:01]who can I collaborate with, right?
[29:03]Because when we combine energies,
[29:06]really magic things can happen.
[29:08]And I saw that in the music business.
[29:10]When a songwriter would come with an idea
[29:12]and work with another writer or the band had an idea
[29:16]and they went in the studio and the producer was like,
[29:18]hey, what if we add this here?
[29:21]When energies are combined, amazing things can happen.
[29:24]So also think about who could you collaborate with
[29:28]on this project?
[29:29]And for young writers,
[29:31]I also would love them to think about, you know,
[29:34]the concept of mentorship.
[29:36]And when I say mentorship, I know people always think,
[29:39]oh, wait a minute, that means that someone more established
[29:42]is working with someone, you know, who's just starting out.
[29:45]No, what about reverse mentorship?
[29:48]I work with this concept all the time.
[29:51]Young people have skills and talents that I don't have,
[29:55]whether that's expressing a story through a video for Insta.
[30:00]Gram or, you know, how can you collaborate with people and tell stories in new and different ways?
[30:05]So, you know, when you think about writing, let's also not just consider it a solitary endeavor,
[30:11]but maybe a team sport. I love that idea. Yes, I am on the hunt for a co-author. Ever since I figured
[30:19]out that was a thing, I was like, this I want in on this. It's, I mean, it just seems like
[30:25]you get to do so many things all at once. And just multiplying the joy, doing it with someone
[30:31]else. Like, I love the idea that it could be a team sport. Oh, I'm doing that right now. I am writing
[30:37]my first co-authored book. I normally write historical fiction. I am collaborating with the
[30:43]master of historical nonfiction, Steve Shankin, who was, you know, three-time National Book Award
[30:48]nominee. I mean, he's won every prize, right? And so we are getting together. And the draft is done.
[30:54]And I have to say, it was absolutely a blast. And the world was so much less lonely when I was,
[31:00]you know, trying to find these obscure things for research. And I would mention to him,
[31:04]I'm on the hunt. And he'd say, wait, I have that. And vice versa. And then I would say,
[31:07]wait, Steve, I have this. And we got to research together and travel. And so yeah, I'm a big believer
[31:14]in collaboration. What fun. What's one thing that people assume, or you think that people might
[31:21]assume about you based on your books or based on your writing career, that is incorrect?
[31:27]First, I think people might assume because of the detail and the research involved and also some
[31:36]of the heavy historical topics that I write about that I am perhaps a dark and somber person. And
[31:47]that's that's not it at all. Or some people think, wow, you must really be dark to be
[31:51]attracted to these heavy and sad historical topics. But it's actually just the opposite
[31:58]through researching and writing these books about difficult events. Oh my goodness. No, it actually
[32:06]makes me more hopeful because amidst the darkness, I find evidence of human beings forging
[32:14]everlasting bonds through adversity. And I find evidence of the miraculous nature of the human
[32:20]spirit. And that's that juxtaposition and play, right? That if we love and loss, hope and hardship,
[32:26]strengthen struggle. And so where people feel like, oh, you must be really, you know, kind of dark
[32:32]and kind of a downer of a of a person. And now granted, you know, I probably am going to be that
[32:36]person at the party who's like, Oh, well, would you like to talk about communism in 1939? And I'll say,
[32:42]no, I don't want to hear anything about that. But, but I'm not a dark person. I find so much
[32:49]inspiration in stories of the human spirit. Interesting. Okay. So that's a good nod for anybody who
[32:57]wants to invite you to a party. Maybe you'll get more invitations after this. Well, actually,
[33:02]after people read you the story, this writing book, they're saying, Oh, wow, you know,
[33:07]I want to hear more about this plane crash or I want to hear more about, you know, when you
[33:12]worked in prison or, you know, these just these different stories. So yeah, hopefully I'll get more
[33:17]party invitations. There you go. Has that been strange for you to step out from behind the fiction
[33:24]a little bit? Oh, it's not only strange, but like I say, it's been an exercise, a good exercise
[33:31]in vulnerability to be to step out and say, Okay, you know, so I'm going to, I want to teach you
[33:39]about, you know, voice or perspective or character development. And here's an example, or you
[33:44]know, or backstory. And here's an example. And I before each book is published, I know every author
[33:51]is different. But for me, I do go through this sort of sense of fear thinking, Oh, my goodness,
[33:57]what if I didn't get it right? Or what if I haven't captured this history correctly? But with
[34:01]this book, it was entirely different because I thought, Oh, my gosh, I am sharing these stories
[34:09]about it. And granted, as I mentioned in the book, I use my stories. My siblings are my best friends,
[34:17]but I don't, I didn't tell their stories. They have their own stories to tell, right? These are
[34:22]my perspectives. And, and you know, we have to be careful, because I know some people are
[34:26]interested in writing about experiences, but they're worried. What if I hurt someone and remember,
[34:33]that's a good cautionary tale that we're all the villain in someone's story, right? And the
[34:38]scheme of life. So we need to be sensitive. And the other thing also to reflect on is we're talking
[34:44]so much about memories and reflecting. And there are some memories that are not worth returning to
[34:50]yes. And so protect your head and your heart always. And as I was going through this exercise,
[34:56]there were some things that I thought, Oh, could I write about that? No. No, I don't even want to
[35:02]think about that. Dont. And I, and I don't. And you move on. Yes. But having the self awareness and the
[35:09]health to ask yourself those questions, what feels good, what feels off limits, what feels like I can
[35:15]revisit it and find some light where it was dark. And then what doors stay closed. I think there's
[35:21]a lot of wisdom there, definitely for people that are looking to go back into those memories.
[35:26]Yeah, I think so. Well, I feel like we should finish up with just talking about your mom,
[35:32]because listening to you say her little voicemail snippets in the book, I could not stop laughing
[35:39]because my mom does the same thing. And I do the same thing occasionally to my children, like I'll
[35:44]say something like, wow, thanks for the downer, mom, like it just, but the way you set it,
[35:49]I love it's me. Yeah, bye bye. I mean, by the end, it was amazing. I was just waiting for them.
[35:55]So that was really perfect. Well, and I wanted to illustrate for listeners and readers this concept
[36:03]of rhythm and character development. Yes, people that we know they have certain rhythms,
[36:09]think of your old teachers or your neighbors or friends or relatives. And when you imitate them,
[36:15]what we're imitating is the rhythm and my mom, oh, she was a rhythmic character. I'm right.
[36:21]And I use that. But do you know that as much as I could say, wow, man, how much I really,
[36:28]really miss my mom? And oh, it could be difficult to write about that. Do you know that hearing
[36:35]now people gravitate to those sections in the book saying, your mother, she reminds me of my mother.
[36:41]Yes. It's made the world less lonely for me. Whereas it could have been an exercise, you know,
[36:46]in that maybe was sad or full of grief. But actually, it's become just the opposite. So thank you
[36:53]so much for mentioning that. I am so glad we got to talk about it because it's a joy
[36:59]to hear and to remember. And that's how those people live on with us. Right? So now
[37:04]to relate to and to relate to and you said, you know what, I do that myself. Yeah. Oh, 100%.
[37:10]I well, and my mom always says it gives her great joy. But what she says to me is mirror, mirror
[37:17]on the wall. I am my mother after all. Right. And so that happens to me quite often to me too.
[37:24]What are you going to do? Well, Rudolph, this was a joy. And I am so very happy that you provided
[37:32]this book because as a person who works with young people and talks about writing with them,
[37:38]I mean, this is just going to be such a valuable tool. And I can't wait to put it in their hand.
[37:42]So thank you for taking the time. And thank you for taking the pieces of yourself that you had
[37:48]to explore and set aside to make this coming to being because it's just going to be a gift to
[37:53]so many. So thank you. Oh, thank you so much. And I really hope that people do consider,
[37:59]you know, this question, you know, if a story was written about your life,
[38:04]what would the title be? Think about that. Just take a moment and think about that. That's a good
[38:09]first step. That is a good first step. I will try not to think about that in the middle of the night.
[38:14]Exactly. Well, thanks for the time today. Thank you.
[38:18]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[38:23]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[38:28]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[38:33]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. In fact, texture sound
[38:38]for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic
[38:42]intro and out trim music.