Ann Garvin, THERE'S NO COMING BACK FROM THIS
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30-minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and
[0:21]memoir.
[0:22]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes.
[0:34]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018, and no matter what
[0:55]I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]And Garvin is the author of There's No Coming Back from This, a novel.
[1:07]Guest hosted by Julie Chavez, author of Everyone But Myself, coming out in January 2024
[1:12]from Zippy Books, and also host of the Ask a Library and Podcast.
[1:17]And Garvin PhD is the USA Today Best Selling Author of Five Funny and Sad Novels.
[1:22]She writes about people who do too much in a world that asks too much from them and worked
[1:27]as an RN.
[1:28]And after receiving her PhD taught exercise physiology, sports psychology, nutrition, stress
[1:34]management, and global health for 30 years, and the University of Wisconsin System.
[1:38]She currently teaches creative writing at Drexel University in their low residency masters
[1:43]of Fine Arts program, and has held positions at Miami University and Southern New Hampshire
[1:48]in their masters of Fine Arts Creative Writing programs, and is the founder of the Multiple
[1:52]Award-winning Tall Poppy Writers, where she is committed to helping women writers succeed.
[1:56]I was one of them for a little bit, and now I'm in a lump.
[1:59]She is a sought-after speaker on writing, leadership, and health, and has taught extensively
[2:03]in New York, San Francisco, LA, Boston, and had festivals around the country and in Europe.
[2:08]And if you follow my Instagram, you may remember that Ann was one of our guests at our
[2:13]Zippy retreat at Canoe Place, and we had so much fun with her.
[2:16]Ann, welcome back to Mom's Don't Have Time Treat Books.
[2:19]I'm so happy you're here today.
[2:21]I'm so happy to be here.
[2:23]You have no idea.
[2:24]I'm just so happy.
[2:25]You're my first name.
[2:27]I feel very excited about that.
[2:28]I was already happy that I got to be the one to interview you for this podcast, but I love
[2:33]knowing that I'm the first person to it, because it's exciting to revisit these things
[2:39]that you wrote so long ago, because I think that's what is easy to forget in publishing
[2:44]that the lag between when you write it and when it comes out is so significant that
[2:49]you do sort of, there's a freshness to revisiting it that I'm sure is kind of fun.
[2:55]It is.
[2:56]It is very fun.
[2:57]And sometimes they catch you in the wrong, you'll think you have to remember that,
[3:02]oh yeah, I did write that, which I think is really funny, but yeah, it is, there's something
[3:05]really wonderful about revisiting, especially after you've given it so much time, because
[3:10]you get to revisit it and then see things that you didn't get to see before, which I
[3:15]kind of love.
[3:16]Yes.
[3:17]Oh, well, your latest book is, I thought you said this would work, which is such a brilliant
[3:23]title.
[3:24]Back to that, because I want to talk about your title today, but it's about poppy lively.
[3:28]She's in trouble with the IRS by no fault of her own.
[3:31]And by the way, that's like something straight out of my nightmares.
[3:35]So as soon as I was reading it, I was like, oh my gosh, but she's striving to keep
[3:39]her life on track for her daughter, so she takes a job in costuming as a sort of roundabout,
[3:47]you know, she's connected and then that happens.
[3:49]Now, I'm always not wanting to give away too much is there more that you would say that
[3:53]I left out in that description.
[3:55]I think the only thing I would say that might inform people who are listening to this is
[3:59]that he was the guy that offers her the job as sort of her old love interests.
[4:04]Okay.
[4:05]And suddenly that she definitely felt like got away.
[4:08]Yes.
[4:09]And he knows up later in such surprising ways that she gets to forgive.
[4:13]Okay.
[4:14]Good job.
[4:15]Good job.
[4:16]You would think that you'd written this second.
[4:17]Yeah.
[4:18]Yeah.
[4:19]I know I feel the same way where it's just like, I want to tell you, but I'm such
[4:24]a bossy book recommender that I just shove it in people's hands.
[4:27]I'm like, just read this.
[4:28]Don't ask me questions.
[4:29]I know there are some people that when they write the review, they write everything.
[4:35]And I think, oh, God, take some of that off 100% of the way that they put away much.
[4:41]Yeah.
[4:42]I don't even read the backs of books because I like to go in totally cold, which
[4:46]is led to some problems in my life, but that's neither here nor there.
[4:50]There have been a few.
[4:52]I honestly, I think that's a good way to do it.
[4:55]It does free you up a little bit.
[4:57]And I think, you know, the back copy is helpful, but sometimes it takes you all the
[5:02]way, almost all the way to kind of the climax of the novel and then all that's left is
[5:05]the resolution.
[5:06]And so yes, okay.
[5:07]I'm glad we're aligned on this.
[5:09]This is important for a future friend.
[5:10]No.
[5:11]No, check.
[5:12]Okay.
[5:13]Very important.
[5:14]Yes.
[5:15]I want to say from the outset, I loved the book.
[5:19]It was so fun.
[5:22]And it's such a good read.
[5:24]You really, I know you're a humorist, but I just kept thinking this is humor with heart,
[5:29]like when I was reading.
[5:30]I just thought there's so much in there that's familiar and comfortable and both just,
[5:37]I mean, so many sentences I read and I thought, oh, that's me.
[5:41]And I'm sure some of it is, you know, being in a similar life stage to Poppy in some
[5:45]ways, but I think you write about women who do too much and you write it so, so accurately.
[5:53]And so this book is a joy to read.
[5:55]So congratulations.
[5:56]I think it's going to be so happy in the world.
[6:00]Thank you.
[6:01]I mean, you just said that all of the little things that make my heart sing when I hear
[6:05]people talk about my writing, like you, you said what I try to do.
[6:11]I have to say, you know, writing, I always say that whenever anybody asks me what do
[6:15]you write, I always say, well, I write funny and sad.
[6:18]And that's a hard pitch.
[6:19]It was a hard pitch in the world to because publishers wanted me to pick a lane, you know,
[6:25]and I don't know about to think of things other than funny and sad, like I, that's just
[6:30]the way my, I look at things.
[6:32]So if to have to write all drama or all humor is not something that I could really do,
[6:38]I wouldn't be able to do it.
[6:39]Well, I always say I'm not that funny and I'm certainly not that bad.
[6:44]So I have, I sort of need to put those two things together to create a whole book.
[6:49]You know, that totally makes sense.
[6:51]You have to have a little bit of both.
[6:52]But I also like the humanness of what you're saying, which is that, I mean, everything,
[6:58]bittersweet is the word I use all the time because it's just, it's life, right?
[7:04]Everything is, it's joy and sorrow embedded into it beginnings or endings.
[7:09]All of these things that are just constantly converging.
[7:12]So they wanted you to pick a lane, but I'm glad that you stayed in your lane because
[7:17]it's just right.
[7:18]Yeah.
[7:19]Yeah.
[7:20]Thank you.
[7:21]Yeah.
[7:22]My very first book was a funny and sad book about a sex offender, like it was, it was, yeah.
[7:26]And the publishers would be like, but you know that sex offenders are not funny.
[7:30]And I'd be like, I know, they're not funny.
[7:32]They're not funny.
[7:33]But there were, you know, it was about a woman that kind of lost her mind because she
[7:37]was moved to a town that she thought was going to be the safest place to raise her child
[7:41]and found out there was a sex offender on her street.
[7:43]And I'm sorry, but like, yes, the sex offender is not funny, but it is a little bit
[7:47]funny to watch people push too far.
[7:50]And what we do when we're pushed too far, and I don't think anybody has ever not been
[7:55]pushed too far in all different ways.
[7:59]Like, it a hundred different ways as a spouse, as a parent, as a person who is working
[8:05]in a school system in a, whatever, in a job, like we've all been shoved too far.
[8:11]And then there are times when we become a little bit of a nut because of it.
[8:17]Like, and later, like I remember one time, oh my gosh, this, I'm, it's still to this day
[8:21]embarrassed about it.
[8:23]But like, I realized when my daughter was in high school and she was dancing at high school
[8:27]dance and they were grinding.
[8:29]And it's like, I must have sounded like somebody from Footloose.
[8:34]When I walked in there and I was like, I cannot believe that you were allowing this job.
[8:39]Do you realize what winding is?
[8:42]Like, and I was just like, they are going to come up on my teenage daughter's room.
[8:48]Like, what did I lose my mind?
[8:51]Like, yes.
[8:52]And I think that's, I love that kind of thing.
[8:55]I just can't get away from it.
[8:57]Yes.
[8:58]I love it.
[8:59]That's where some of them come up.
[9:01]That's amazing.
[9:02]Unhinged is just the best place to be or watch someone go to sometimes because you're
[9:07]right.
[9:08]We've been there where you're just like, I, yeah, I routinely take things too far for
[9:12]sure.
[9:13]And I know, that's incredible.
[9:18]It is true.
[9:19]I find myself really that generational gap.
[9:21]Yeah.
[9:22]The parents from Footloose.
[9:23]Right.
[9:24]Yeah.
[9:25]Such an absolute difference.
[9:26]I need to come through.
[9:27]I can't talk about it.
[9:28]They'll be like, mom, remember you're going to last your mind about grinding.
[9:31]I'm like, shh.
[9:33]We don't talk about that, kids.
[9:35]Talk about when mommy lost your mind.
[9:38]We don't talk about that.
[9:39]No, mommy's fine now.
[9:40]It's all fine.
[9:42]I want to talk about, well, okay, so this is a good point to ask.
[9:46]You started out as a scientist.
[9:48]Is that correct?
[9:49]Yeah.
[9:50]Okay.
[9:51]You find your way from science to writing.
[9:54]And what kind of scientist were you?
[9:56]Well, okay.
[9:57]So I was first.
[9:58]I was a nurse.
[9:59]And I worked as a nurse.
[10:00]are for years and I put myself through grad school.
[10:02]And then I went to, when I was working as a nurse,
[10:05]I'll try to do this quickly because I tend to go off
[10:08]too far into too much details.
[10:10]But when I was working as a nurse,
[10:12]I was like, oh, I got these people I just laying around.
[10:14]If we could move them around a little bit,
[10:15]they'd feel a little better.
[10:16]And then I thought, I don't know anything about that.
[10:18]So I took the class in exercise physiology
[10:20]and then I got a master's in exercise fits.
[10:23]Well, then then I was like, you know,
[10:25]there's like, I think that they should do it
[10:27]because they'd feel better.
[10:28]I don't know anything about the psychological aspects of
[10:31]exercise.
[10:32]And then I took a class in that.
[10:34]And the professor was like, well,
[10:35]you should maybe think about getting your PhD.
[10:37]And I was like, oh, okay.
[10:38]Like it was like, I was like,
[10:40]you're cool.
[10:42]And that, yeah, I mean, basically like that,
[10:44]I was working as a nurse.
[10:45]I was paying off my tuition.
[10:47]It was like, I could do this.
[10:48]My dad was like, you're never, what are you crazy?
[10:51]Like he wanted me to go learn golfing
[10:53]and become a business person.
[10:54]And I was like, I think I'm going to learn how exercise
[10:57]makes people feel.
[10:58]So then I did all of my work
[11:00]and exercise in mental health.
[11:01]And then I taught all of the content
[11:04]for people who are going to be health educators
[11:06]and my university.
[11:08]So I taught like nutrition and stress management
[11:10]and global health and research methods and things like that.
[11:12]So I did that for, I don't know, 28,
[11:15]I mean, honestly, if you put it all together,
[11:17]it's probably like 30 years.
[11:18]And I did it and I loved it
[11:21]because teaching is telling a story.
[11:23]And research is telling a story.
[11:25]Research is asking a question going,
[11:27]I wonder how that happened.
[11:29]And then putting it all together
[11:31]so that you can maybe discover it, right?
[11:33]So I would never have said that that helped me
[11:37]write a book because certainly it took me years
[11:40]to look back and go, oh, it's just storytelling.
[11:42]It's all just storytelling.
[11:44]But I was always, so when I was working and teaching,
[11:48]I thought to myself, you'll laugh when you hear this,
[11:50]I think because I said, well, you know, my student,
[11:54]I have a very, it's a good thing
[11:56]it was not a lot of video when I was teaching.
[11:58]Because I have, we're all adults.
[12:01]I have a very full mouth and a very practical way
[12:05]of teaching health.
[12:07]And these were all people who binge drank
[12:10]and did not wear condoms.
[12:13]And so I, yeah.
[12:15]And so I was teaching and I thought, you know,
[12:18]it would be really great to have a larger audience
[12:20]for these kinds of lectures
[12:22]because I really had a way of sort of breaking it down
[12:25]for people.
[12:26]And so I went at first,
[12:28]when my first started talking about this,
[12:30]I asked if anybody would want to publish a book like that.
[12:33]And maybe we're like, you're not qualified to do that.
[12:36]And I was like, what, I have a doctor in it.
[12:41]And they were like, yeah, but you don't have a platform
[12:43]and nobody knows you, you're not famous
[12:44]and we'll never be able to sell it.
[12:46]So I thought, okay.
[12:48]So then I didn't really think of being a fiction writer
[12:51]then because it never occurred to me
[12:53]because I didn't have any ideas about a story.
[12:56]Like I didn't, I didn't have,
[12:57]and I didn't occur to me.
[12:59]I just didn't know, but I was such a reader.
[13:01]Like I've always been a reader.
[13:02]And my friends used to say, oh, you write such great letters.
[13:05]You should write a book which, you know,
[13:07]everybody knows that writing a good letter
[13:10]is not a novelist, right?
[13:12]Of course.
[13:13]So I entered a contest and I on a whim
[13:16]and I thought nobody would know.
[13:17]And I got second place and it was a big contest with,
[13:21]and I won money and it was such a like finding
[13:25]a superhero cape in your closet.
[13:28]And there's something about that contest
[13:31]that unlocked my brain for story
[13:33]and then I started writing fiction.
[13:35]So that's kind of how it happened.
[13:37]And then like every naive person,
[13:40]I'm like, I'm gonna write a book, I could do that.
[13:42]And then I came up with the hardest book to sell in America,
[13:48]which is a funny book about a sex offender,
[13:50]which was not understanding the market.
[13:52]But I did get published, God bless Penguin.
[13:58]But you know, they didn't market it
[13:59]as a funny sex offender book, I'll say that.
[14:01]So anyway, that's a long story to say how it came.
[14:06]And you know, when you're a scientist
[14:07]and when you're in psychology, when you're a nurse,
[14:10]all of that is about empathy and understanding emotions.
[14:13]So that piece was in place.
[14:15]And I just had to figure out and I loved reading
[14:19]like my favorite authors were, you know,
[14:20]Laurie Moore and Elizabeth Berg and Olive Kitterich
[14:24]and they write funny and sad, they do that.
[14:27]They didn't really call it that,
[14:29]but that's kind of how they do.
[14:31]And so when I would read their work,
[14:32]I thought, oh, there's space for me.
[14:34]There might be a space for me.
[14:35]Wow. And that's how it all came.
[14:37]Yeah. Yeah.
[14:38]And I also knew that like as much as I love teaching,
[14:42]I knew I wasn't gonna want to do it forever.
[14:45]And I did it for almost ever.
[14:47]And then once video was coming out,
[14:50]I was like, I had to get out.
[14:51]They're gonna, I didn't have to cancel them for a second.
[14:54]If anybody hears the way that I teach help,
[14:56]you know, they're gonna be like, ooh.
[14:59]So hey everyone, I'm quitting the way to get fired.
[15:02]Yeah, right about the time in Snapchat
[15:05]I'd really hit the stride.
[15:07]I was like, I think I got a deal.
[15:10]And then I just, now I write full time and I teach writing.
[15:13]So I'm really happy that I don't have to teach health anymore
[15:16]to people who've been in strength and don't wear a condom,
[15:20]you know, so there it is.
[15:22]I think you landed exactly where you're meant to be.
[15:27]That is such, I love those stories
[15:30]because we all want like a clean trajectory, right?
[15:34]Or at least I know I did especially when I was younger.
[15:36]I want the career to start out.
[15:39]And it's just, it's so often not the way that things happen.
[15:44]And I think especially for writing like you're saying,
[15:47]all of those moments and jobs and that gathering of just
[15:55]understanding of people is so valuable
[15:59]when you're writing fiction because you're writing about people.
[16:03]And people are crazy.
[16:04]So you need lots of samples.
[16:05]Right. Yeah. Yeah.
[16:07]And I think, and the other thing that I said about,
[16:10]I always say this about getting your PhD,
[16:12]like it is a really good sort of sweat lodge
[16:18]for writing about in terms of rejection
[16:21]because when you're working on your PhD,
[16:23]at least at least in my era, they were brutal.
[16:28]They were so hard on you.
[16:30]And so like they were just freaking brutal.
[16:33]And so I think that once I was getting rejected nicely
[16:37]from agents, I was like, oh, that's okay.
[16:39]Like they're nice about it.
[16:41]Yeah, they didn't call me an idiot.
[16:43]Oh, that's good.
[16:47]I'm winning.
[16:48]Wow, look at this nice email.
[16:49]Oh my God.
[16:50]It's so true though.
[16:51]I never even thought of that.
[16:53]Yes, defending a thesis sounds like the worst.
[16:56]When my did my master's thesis,
[16:59]I was wearing a light silk shirt.
[17:01]And I looked like I'd been nice under both armpits.
[17:05]By the end of it, I went into the bathroom
[17:07]and I was like, no to self, no more light silk tops
[17:10]when you're nervous.
[17:12]Yeah.
[17:13]I love my story.
[17:14]Yeah, I know photographs I got.
[17:17]Yeah.
[17:18]Aren't you so glad?
[17:19]I tell my kids that often.
[17:21]I'm like, look, you know, I would not have survived.
[17:24]If social media were happening while I was in high school,
[17:27]so no.
[17:28]And then, yeah, going forward.
[17:30]I do have some pictures of a very tragic short haircut
[17:33]that I had in college that I pull out occasionally.
[17:37]But luckily, they're just, you know, for my sex.
[17:40]Yeah.
[17:40]And I can keep them out of wraps.
[17:42]And you can't do this to it.
[17:44]Really, really.
[17:45]Oh, yeah, you can't zoom in and just torture yourself.
[17:48]Oh, you're so right.
[17:49]I also, in addition to the tragic haircut,
[17:51]had a very, very bad style period during that.
[17:54]And it was in the time of Bermuda shorts anyway.
[17:58]And gosh, I look back.
[17:59]I'm like, this is just a tragedy right here.
[18:02]Yeah.
[18:03]Oh, that leads nicely into my next question
[18:06]for you, which is about costuming,
[18:09]because that is so much of this book.
[18:11]And I loved what you talked about.
[18:14]Did you get to take a tour of like a wardrobe space?
[18:18]Okay.
[18:19]And I thought it was so weird.
[18:20]I go ahead.
[18:21]Go ahead.
[18:22]No, no, I want to go hit it.
[18:24]I spent days on the universal backlock
[18:27]and days on the Sony backlock with a key grip and his
[18:31]and a customer who had done all of the movies
[18:35]that you have seen.
[18:37]Oh my God.
[18:37]She did, she did, she did, she did King Richard.
[18:42]She did every single thing Adam Sandler ever did.
[18:45]She did, she had an Emmy.
[18:47]And she, she also connected me to five other customers
[18:53]who also had long lunches and showed me places
[18:57]and showed me their notebooks and explained everything.
[19:00]And then we would all get together for lunch.
[19:02]And I would pretend that I was a customer.
[19:04]And I was so obnoxious that I'm sure they were like,
[19:08]this lady is too much.
[19:09]But I was so, I got, she's hours, hours and hours.
[19:15]Because it was a little bit during COVID,
[19:17]they were only shooting one thing there in the backlock.
[19:20]And so I had free rain, like free rush.
[19:24]I don't think it would ever happen like that again.
[19:27]And probably if I set it out loud
[19:29]and universal studios heard me,
[19:30]they'd be like, please stop saying that.
[19:32]Because, and it was really fun because they were still doing,
[19:37]it couldn't have been, well it was in the middle of COVID
[19:40]because they were still doing a lot of COVID restrictions
[19:43]that people hadn't come back to the back lot to do it.
[19:45]And I brought in, I was like the people from the studio,
[19:50]from the tour would come through.
[19:53]And I, they would like take our picture it
[19:56]and be like, it was so funny.
[20:00]What's the best, I got to go inside the psycho house
[20:03]at the base motel.
[20:04]I got, it just was amazing.
[20:08]I was not restricted in any way.
[20:10]And I think part of that was because I spent all my time
[20:13]with them saying things like,
[20:15]but what do the doorknobs look like?
[20:17]Like they'd be like, they'd say,
[20:20]we can't believe you're not asking any dirt on celebrity.
[20:23]I'd be like, I just need to know,
[20:25]is there a bench in the wardrobe area?
[20:28]Which laid out like, where is the place where there's a shower?
[20:33]Like, and they were like, it was so funny because she said,
[20:36]nobody ever asks us about our job.
[20:39]No one ever asks us.
[20:41]Yeah.
[20:41]And I, by the end of it, I was like a costume evangelist
[20:46]because, you know, besides the script,
[20:49]which of course the script writers don't get enough,
[20:51]you know, curling, of course.
[20:53]The costumes are the characters as much as anything else
[20:57]and the way that they are forgotten is shocking to me.
[21:03]And I am a huge movie.
[21:05]As much as a reader, I am a movie person too.
[21:08]Like, I love movies.
[21:09]I joke and I always say I watch them all.
[21:12]I had, it was the time of my life to be able to do that.
[21:19]And I just count myself so lucky.
[21:21]So I had a friend that lives in LA
[21:25]and I said, do you know any costume designers or,
[21:28]and she was like, well, the one that,
[21:30]she lives across the street and down ways,
[21:33]she just retired after 30 years.
[21:35]She probably has time to talk to you.
[21:37]Yeah.
[21:37]And now we're like, friends.
[21:39]Like, we're all, I feel like, well,
[21:41]I don't know if they think I'm a friend,
[21:42]but I'm like, we're friends, we're friends now.
[21:45]I'm so funny, cool.
[21:49]I am constantly like sending them thank you notes and stuff.
[21:53]And I'm sure they're like,
[21:54]we got another box for man.
[21:55]Like, it's, hey, bestie, it's me again.
[21:59]I'm like, I can't, I'm just with her again.
[22:06]When is this book out?
[22:10]It's so much.
[22:11]It's so true.
[22:13]Yeah.
[22:14]And the key group guy too, he was like,
[22:15]he's like, I don't think anybody ever asked him anything either.
[22:18]And I was like, I would be like,
[22:20]so what is the key group doing?
[22:21]We'd be like 45 minutes into being like,
[22:24]telling me what the key group really does.
[22:26]And I loved it.
[22:28]I loved it so much.
[22:29]And I got, oh, I, on Instagram,
[22:31]and I can send you some too.
[22:33]Like, and if you go to my website,
[22:36]they've created a door where you can click on it
[22:39]and you get all of this information about it
[22:41]because that suit that is in, that's,
[22:44]yeah, that's on the website and in my Instagram,
[22:48]I'm starting to post all the pictures
[22:49]of inside the costumes area.
[22:52]And it's like, it's like the biggest good will you've ever seen.
[22:56]That's what it's like.
[22:57]It's not tidy.
[22:59]I don't know how they find anything.
[23:01]That's amazing. Yeah.
[23:03]And they don't have an iconic costume area.
[23:06]Like they're just in with the rest.
[23:08]She was like, sometimes you can find one
[23:10]and it'll say, oh my gosh, yeah, just put that wherever.
[23:15]Yeah, just put it wherever.
[23:17]Yeah, so that was really fun.
[23:19]And then, and I wouldn't have been able to write,
[23:22]you know, there's that piece of intrigue in it.
[23:24]Yes.
[23:25]That you started, it's a little bit of a mystery.
[23:27]Yes.
[23:28]And you don't know who is at the center of it.
[23:32]Absolutely.
[23:33]And I, so when I, I'll tell you, if you want to know
[23:36]how the idea came up, I feel like I'm going to take up
[23:38]every minute of your time all day today.
[23:40]I love it.
[23:41]Continue this, I'm fascinated.
[23:43]Yes, I do want to hear how you came up with the idea.
[23:46]Okay.
[23:47]Well, it was very funny because during COVID,
[23:50]I was writing a book that wasn't working.
[23:52]And I now know why it wasn't working.
[23:55]But I was, I'll tell you why briefly
[23:57]because you're a writer too.
[23:58]And probably a lot of the writers will, you know,
[24:00]that listen to this, maybe are writers,
[24:02]but I was writing forward from a premise instead of a story.
[24:05]I was writing forward from my idea instead of my character arc.
[24:10]And so I had a great idea.
[24:12]And I had three characters in a rotating point of view,
[24:15]but I did not have a story.
[24:18]I had an idea of what they would be doing,
[24:20]but doing is not a story.
[24:21]And I, and it was the first time I ever done that.
[24:25]I don't know why I did it,
[24:26]but I really couldn't get it done.
[24:29]And so I had written it through three times
[24:32]and gone through three edits with my editor.
[24:35]And I said to them, and it was so funny
[24:38]because what did it was when I saw Bob say,
[24:40]I get died for some reason I was like, Bob say,
[24:43]I get died, I'm not going to die writing this book.
[24:46]And when I told my agent that I said to my agent,
[24:49]Bob say, I get died, I'm not writing this book.
[24:51]And she was like, what?
[24:53]When he was, and she was like, she was, do you know?
[24:58]And I was, I don't, but he was like,
[25:00]see, and he just finished doing like a show
[25:04]and he was back on the road.
[25:06]He was having this great life.
[25:07]And then he died.
[25:08]And I was like, I'm not going to die writing this book as it.
[25:11]Like, I was up in my bedroom.
[25:12]It was not doing risky behavior.
[25:15]Right.
[25:15]And so I just, yeah.
[25:17]So I pulled that book and my agent said,
[25:20]and which I don't know if I'll ever go back to it
[25:21]because it's not really a story.
[25:23]And maybe I'll figure it out,
[25:24]but it's done in, and not good.
[25:27]So then I, but I had made a joke in there.
[25:32]She said, can you pitch an idea by Monday
[25:35]because it was Friday?
[25:36]And I said, yes, yes, I can.
[25:39]And I didn't know if I could, but I was like, I'm gonna.
[25:42]So I had made a joke in the book
[25:46]that this woman character had gotten all of her money
[25:50]by being a customer for all of the remakes
[25:53]of Nora F. Proms, Rom Combs, but with dogs.
[25:58]And no, it's so silly.
[26:01]It's a joke.
[26:02]Mm-hmm.
[26:03]I put that out.
[26:05]I pulled that out.
[26:06]And I thought, okay, what kind of,
[26:08]what's the story there?
[26:10]And I built the story around that.
[26:12]But then after I wrote the first chapter,
[26:15]I wrote the pitch.
[26:16]They bought it.
[26:18]They were happy.
[26:20]And then after I wrote the first chapter,
[26:21]I was like, Jesus, I don't know anything about this.
[26:24]And I called my friend and I got on the phone
[26:28]with this costume woman.
[26:29]And we talked for a couple of hours.
[26:32]And then I said, are you free next week?
[26:34]I'm flying in.
[26:35]And she was like, yup, yup, and I got on a plane.
[26:40]And I would not have been able to write that book
[26:42]and had I not been on the set to see what the possibilities are.
[26:48]And once I was on the set, I was like, oh, okay.
[26:55]And then also when I got on the set,
[26:57]even though I do spend a lot of time out in LA,
[27:00]whenever I'm out in LA,
[27:02]I am either viewing LA as a New Yorker,
[27:04]because that's where it was from originally
[27:06]or a Midwest person, you know?
[27:09]And so like when you are a Wisconsin person
[27:13]and you drive into LA for the first time,
[27:16]it's like it's so unusual and so wild and so different
[27:23]that you can't not observe it in that way.
[27:26]So for me to be this Wisconsin woman
[27:30]who was being transported into the shark tank
[27:34]of universal studios and all of the people
[27:37]that I have do this as if it's the air they breathe
[27:40]was such a fun experience because it's so frickin' funny.
[27:45]It's funny on both sides.
[27:46]It's funny looking at this behavior that they take for granted
[27:51]and it's also funny for them looking at the Wisconsin person
[27:55]when being like, are you kidding me?
[27:56]Like what do you, and I loved that juxtaposition.
[28:00]It was really fun to observe on both.
[28:03]Like I always say whenever I pass homeless people
[28:07]in LA and it's not just one, it's like clumps,
[28:10]large clumps, it's whole tent cities, right?
[28:14]And I always say to my friends, I'm like,
[28:15]in Wisconsin if someone is laying on the side of the road,
[28:18]you stop and you bring them inside and you're even fun to eat.
[28:20]Like you don't drive past them.
[28:22]Like it's so interesting.
[28:25]And so it was with that sort of framework
[28:28]that I entered the universal studios
[28:31]and then it was all like the, I want to say
[28:34]the jokes just wrote themselves
[28:36]because it was such a funny experience for me.
[28:41]I'm sure that they did.
[28:43]Yeah, they did.
[28:44]And then the other piece of it is that she's not a movie watcher.
[28:48]So she doesn't have that irreverent.
[28:50]Like she's not, she's irreverent, she doesn't care.
[28:53]She's like, yeah, I'm just not a big movie watcher.
[28:55]I don't even know who these, but I went as the big deal
[28:58]and that's another piece of it that like I didn't want her
[29:01]to write it like me, like, you know, starstruck.
[29:04]And yes, I wanted to write it like,
[29:07]this is a job that I have to do and I,
[29:12]and you guys are like kind of what's your deal?
[29:16]And that that was really fun.
[29:18]It was just a really fun sort of hat to put on, you know,
[29:21]the kind of wide-eyed like, yeah, same.
[29:26]I loved reading it that way.
[29:27]And you're exactly right.
[29:28]She's irreverent.
[29:29]She's allergic to dogs, which was one of my favorite details
[29:34]as a person with allergies.
[29:35]I was like, this is perfect.
[29:36]And I think you're so right because familiarity
[29:40]is what robs us sometimes of actually seeing how
[29:46]interesting and weird things are.
[29:49]Yeah. And so you gotta get yourself out of your culture, right?
[29:51]You gotta get yourself out of your world.
[29:53]Otherwise you see like, I even, when I'm driving through my town,
[29:57]I like, when does that build in go up?
[29:59]And somebody else.
[30:00]say, well, it's been up for years. And I think, how did I miss that?
[30:04]You know, you you fill in the blank for yourself. It's so true.
[30:07]So when you were walking around with your brand new eyeballs, checking things out,
[30:12]it was, it was really fun to play around with some of that and then build in
[30:18]Midwesterners view of the stuff, you know, all of the stuff. Even the fact
[30:23]that she did something about this intrigue, I thought was interesting, because I
[30:27]think most people wouldn't have done anything.
[30:30]You know, she would have just been like, that's none of my business. I'm not, I'm not,
[30:34]that's none of my business. And so it was really fun to sort of make it her business.
[30:38]And, you know, I don't know, it wasn't, I have to say it was a really fun put to write,
[30:44]you know, just for me, just for me to experience all that, you know, I bet.
[30:50]Well, it comes through, I think listening to you talk about it is so fun for me because
[30:56]having read the book and enjoyed it so much and seeing so many parts of it in your experience
[31:02]that were translated. I think just through, yeah, just without even trying, I, I am such a fan.
[31:10]So I'm so glad we got to talk about the book and share about it. So yeah, yeah.
[31:18]Is there anything else that I feel like I interrupted everything you wanted to say?
[31:23]You know, I know you can't talk pretty much longer because I think we're already over time,
[31:26]but it's fine. I do want to ask you one more question. I am going to tell everyone to go to your
[31:31]website because it's so impressive. And so, and the costuming stuff is so cool. So I was down
[31:36]the rabbit hole with that. But I did, I have gotten to interview a few of your tall poppy friends.
[31:43]And that's been so fun. And I told Ali and Asha when I interviewed them that it sounds like just
[31:49]like the nicest non dangerous cult. And I want to be in it. So, you know, just let me know on that.
[31:55]But the other thing, this is what I want to know. You founded it. You're part of it. But tell me
[32:01]not the backstory. I just want to hear, you know, you're up in the morning. What are the
[32:06]poppies mean to you? Oh gosh. Some of my best friends are poppies. A lot of them are my best friends.
[32:13]It means that I'm not alone in an area where you can be alone. In my town, we do have a fair amount
[32:21]of writers. But, you know, most of my friends are at night or nobody's a writer. And so when I say
[32:26]something like, can you believe X, Y, Z? My people are like, I just, sorry, you know, but when you
[32:33]say it to a writer, they're like, oh, oh, you know, and they get it. And that group or you say,
[32:40]you guys, this bad thing happened. And now nobody's going to read my book. They just swoop in.
[32:46]And then they do something about it in such a big way. They're the most generous group of people
[32:52]that just believe like I do. The writing isn't the competition. And that there's no room for
[32:58]competition. There's room for all of us. And one person's success has nothing to do with my
[33:05]failure or success. Yes. And so I really having this group has meant so much to me. And,
[33:12]you know, running any group is a lot of work. And so there have been times when I thought,
[33:16]I can't, it's too much. I'm sure it is kind of a lot. But I think it, I don't know what I would do
[33:23]without them. Honestly, there's just such a great group of women. And we've, we've had a lot of
[33:28]turnover over the years because writing is like that. Yes. Right? People come and go, come and go.
[33:33]So it's been really nice to have this one very solid thing that I've had in my writing career
[33:38]ever since the second book. So, yeah, it's a great group. And they are friendly. Well, yes, the ones
[33:45]I've interviewed were just a delight. And then I know some of them I was looking through the list
[33:49]today, you know, like a quiet little stalker. No problems. Yeah. Oh, I get it. Yeah.
[33:56]I do. Well, you let me know. If you ever want to do something with the puppies, you just let me know.
[34:00]And it's your memoir going to be published soonish. Do you know, how are you January? Oh,
[34:06]congratulations. Yes. Thanks. Thanks. It'll be exciting. Wonderful forward to it. Yes.
[34:11]Well, hit me up. I'll do whatever I can. I will. I'll send you thank you notes. Just like you,
[34:17]the costumers can't shake you. You will not be able to shake me. That's what's about to happen here.
[34:22]Best friendship. I like that. I like a friend that can't shake me. I like it. That works great.
[34:29]Well, thanks so much for being here today and can't read to read. Share your book with the world.
[34:34]Thank you. Thank you so much.
[34:37]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[34:41]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign
[34:46]up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors
[34:51]on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound for the Sound Editing.
[34:56]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and