Jancee Dunn, HOT AND BOTHERED: What No One Tells You about Menopause and How to Feel Like Yourself Again
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[1:03]Jansy Dunn is the author of Hot and Bothered.
[1:06]What no one tells you about menopause and how to finally feel like yourself again.
[1:11]Jansy is the well columnist for The New York Times.
[1:14]For over two decades, she has written about health, for publications such as Vogue, Health,
[1:18]The Guardian, The Wall Street Journal, and outside among others.
[1:21]For a dozen years, she was a reporter and editor Rolling Stone.
[1:25]She was the editor of a long time column about ethical issues for O, The Over magazine,
[1:29]and was a sex columnist at GQ.
[1:31]She is also The New York Times best-selling author of nine books, don't you love how
[1:35]she just throws that in there.
[1:37]She lives in New Jersey with her husband, the author, Tom Vanderbilt, and their daughter.
[1:41]Welcome, Jansy.
[1:42]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books, to discuss Hot
[1:46]and Bothered.
[1:47]What no one tells you about menopause and how to feel like yourself again.
[1:50]Thank you for having me.
[1:52]Well, this couldn't come at a better time.
[1:54]I am one of the what 30 million people between ages 40 and 50, whatever that you talk about
[1:58]in the book, that are consistently ignored and never talked to about menopause, all of
[2:04]the stuff.
[2:05]So I am in your audience, I am such an eager recipient of all the information, and this
[2:11]book was so funny.
[2:13]I love you and your mom, and the whole thing, and all of the scenes that you tell and
[2:18]write about, and I just, you know, I just, I loved it.
[2:23]It was really fun.
[2:24]It was like a memoir told in, you know, Outrage.
[2:26]Thank you so much.
[2:28]I tried to, you know, it's a difficult subject, so there I really had to think about the
[2:33]approach and to make it sort of funny and relatable because it's major.
[2:39]Yeah, it's true.
[2:41]So the first, one of the first points you make is how little people talk about menopause
[2:47]not just us as people and not just as a society, but doctors and how so often people
[2:54]are misdiagnosed and haven't go to so many different doctors because they're like,
[2:58]what?
[2:59]34 different symptoms, maybe more 43, what a million essentially talk about, talk about that.
[3:07]Okay.
[3:08]Talk about anything.
[3:09]Talk about why you wrote the book.
[3:11]The misinformation, it's on a couple levels, right?
[3:14]I mean, there is the fact that it's, you know, menopause is the intersection of sexism
[3:20]and ageism, right?
[3:21]And older women, you know, in medicine, it's like you follow a cliff after you have babies.
[3:28]And most there was this famous study I cited in the book that OBGYN's get exactly one
[3:34]hour of menopause training.
[3:36]Even when you go to the doctor, you know, when you're younger, when you're in your
[3:41]childbearing years, there's a lot of procedure based medicine.
[3:44]But when you're older, it's mostly about kind of like sitting down and talking about lifestyle
[3:49]changes and things like that.
[3:51]And then I'm a health journalist.
[3:52]I've been doing this for decades and I couldn't find any information nor could I connect
[3:59]the dots when I started getting symptoms.
[4:02]First of all, I didn't know that Perry menopause, Perry meaning around the years leading
[4:06]up to menopause, it happens most often in a woman's 40s.
[4:13]I thought it was kind of Golden Girls land like some distant time period in my life, but
[4:18]it happened when I started getting symptoms when I was 45 at the time, I had a toddler.
[4:23]So I was in toddler land.
[4:24]I was going to bouncy castles and, you know, all that stuff.
[4:28]I certainly wasn't thinking about menopause or Perry menopause.
[4:33]So I got a few symptoms, including my heart started racing and I'm the run to the doctor
[4:39]type.
[4:40]Are you a run to the doctor type?
[4:41]I go for everything.
[4:42]I now do not go for checkups.
[4:43]I only go.
[4:44]So just like the worst kind of patient, but anyway, yeah, well, that was me too, actually.
[4:51]And instead of, you know, being on top of it, I thought, oh, Lord, I have a racing heart.
[4:55]I went to a cardiologist.
[4:56]He said, I don't know what's wrong with you, you seem fine.
[4:59]And a couple of these symptoms piled up.
[5:02]I started getting bizarrely dry skin had no idea it was Perry menopause.
[5:07]So wait, can I read the passage?
[5:09]I actually dug you this one when you talk about your dry skin on your neck, which
[5:12]was like the funniest.
[5:13]Wait, hold on.
[5:14]I have to read this section.
[5:15]And then you talk about the rest.
[5:16]Wait, keep talking in a minute.
[5:18]Wait, hold on.
[5:19]You said, it was the sit, hold on.
[5:21]I had it right here.
[5:23]He said, dryness is a recurring theme, which in my case tracked everything on my body.
[5:28]That was capable of becoming parched did so from scalp to feet.
[5:31]Even my ears normally fairly supple as far as years go, assumed the precise leathery texture
[5:36]of Peter Joe's unsulford, just mango slices.
[5:40]My suddenly dry neck shed so much skin that my white towels turned brown.
[5:45]Perry menopausal sisters, I implore you to switch this minute to invest in a rich neck
[5:50]cream.
[5:51]And then I just have to read this next paragraph.
[5:53]My nether regions experienced a calamitous climate change swiftly going from tropical
[5:58]lush to arid desert.
[6:00]Sex with my husband felt like he had strapped on a condom made of astra turf on my head.
[6:06]Not only then, but seemingly migrated down my body to sprout and unwelcome WTF places,
[6:12]such as my inner wrist.
[6:14]Oh, my God, you're so funny.
[6:18]Thank you.
[6:19]Yeah, it's it is a constellation of, I mean, you know, some experts would that I interviewed
[6:25]for the book said, oh, some people sail through menopause with no symptoms.
[6:28]I haven't met any of those people, but apparently they do exist.
[6:32]But yes, and it's, it's bizarre.
[6:35]Some of these symptoms and the dryness was just another level and they, they hit, you
[6:41]know, in these groups sometimes, but I didn't put it together.
[6:45]I didn't, I never thought, oh, this is Perry menopause.
[6:48]I just thought, oh, this is just stuff that happens in midlife or what now, you know,
[6:52]my ears have dried up.
[6:54]So when I finally figured out what was happening and started doing research, I, I thought,
[6:59]oh, okay, so I'm actually on track.
[7:01]I'm in my 40s and this is starting to happen.
[7:04]And how I wish that women were informed of these changes that they're going to, you know,
[7:10]start happening.
[7:11]Like if, if, if I knew in my late 30s or something, then at least I would be prepared
[7:15]because there's treatments for a lot of this stuff.
[7:18]Yeah, I know the dryness, it's, it is just and sex hurt so much.
[7:23]And I was avoiding my husband.
[7:25]And that's the thing too is, okay, going back to what you asked earlier about how we
[7:29]you don't talk about it.
[7:30]I didn't, I never had a single conversation about menopause with my mother.
[7:34]I talked to her all the time.
[7:35]We talk about everything you can imagine never had a conversation, didn't talk to my
[7:40]sisters about it, my friends, because it's still taboo, which is silly because it affects
[7:44]half the population.
[7:46]And it's not a disease.
[7:48]It's a natural stage of your life.
[7:50]And when you enter menopause, you don't go through it.
[7:54]You enter it and you kind of stay there and you can stay there for decades.
[7:58]So why wouldn't we talk about something that is so profound in your life?
[8:04]So now I make a practice, I mean, not just because I wrote the book, but I just, I talk
[8:08]about menopause, you know, I tell people all the time, if you feel safe talking to somebody
[8:14]about it, talk about it.
[8:15]It's the only way, you know, it's starting at a grassroots level where people are talking
[8:20]more about it, you know, people like you, thank goodness, you're having me on your podcast
[8:26]podcast to talk about it.
[8:27]Like, it's all moving forward.
[8:29]And my hope is that when my kid who's now 14 is, you know, in her 40s, she'll be like,
[8:35]all right, menopause, you know, that it'll just be banal as it should be.
[8:39]That was a long answer.
[8:41]Sorry.
[8:42]I was great.
[8:43]No, I mean, I think it's one of those things that is losing its stigma, you know, mental
[8:48]health, things for like this, but I still feel, and maybe, and it's almost a nice
[8:53]book end because of, are you there?
[8:56]God, it's me Margaret coming out again this summer.
[8:59]And this book, it's like the two, you talk about them as book ends, the whole journey
[9:03]in the book.
[9:04]I feel like those are the two sort of capstone books now of this experience, right?
[9:08]This is when it starts.
[9:09]This is when it ends and, you know, I don't know, maybe we need some sort of celebration.
[9:14]But I think what you also point out is that there is no one definitive test because hormone
[9:18]shift all the time.
[9:19]So you can't like say 100% like, okay, this is exactly where you are right now.
[9:23]You could, you could go in and get blood tests every day for a month to have to figure
[9:27]the whole thing out.
[9:28]So it's not like, it's easy for people to, they have to just, you just kind of have to
[9:31]guess.
[9:32]Like it's not like it happens on a date, like your first period or something.
[9:35]Right?
[9:36]I mean, you know, I know people are reassured by tests.
[9:39]I understand that, but every single expert, I don't even know how many experts I talk
[9:44]to for this book said, save your money, you know, it's expensive.
[9:48]It's out of pocket when you take these tests and your hormones do change by the day.
[9:52]And most doctors, you know, if they sit down and talk to you and get all the symptoms can
[9:56]make a diagnosis just by finding out your symptoms.
[10:00]And of course, the definition of menopause is you've been without a period for a year, a whole year.
[10:05]So even if you get it like in, you know, month nine, then you have to go back to the beginning and count up for another 12 months, which is also something I didn't know.
[10:15]I didn't know that one of the best treatments for menopause was weed.
[10:20]It was a huge surprise to me that all these, everybody's like taking gummies and everything for menopause symptoms. This blew my mind.
[10:32]Pretty much all my friends and, you know, I interviewed many of them kind of in disguise for the book, but there isn't for, you know, kind of obvious reasons there hasn't been many studies on it.
[10:44]And anecdotally these women say that it's helping a lot everything from irritability to sleeping, but the data is not there yet, but that doesn't stop everyone from popping gummies like crazy because, you know, women need solutions.
[10:59]And so who can blame them. And if it works great. That's the thing too is I detail all these treatments in the book and every menopause experience is different.
[11:10]So if it works for you, great, you know, there's not a ton of data on some of these like, you know, herbal supplements, but you know, if it works and you're not deranged from hot flashes, great.
[11:25]You know, one of the funniest things was when you were preparing for that interview and you were deranged and sweat and you had like three different fans going and you were trying to like play it so cool for I think vanity fair or something like that.
[11:37]And just like trying to hide.
[11:39]And trying to hide the flashes. So funny.
[11:42]I was melting like a snowman. It was awful. And I had it really my hair was blowing, which must have looked ridiculous from the fans, but I had to stop sweating. Like it was really, really obvious that my makeup was melting down.
[11:59]And who can understand, you know, it was a, it was a younger celebrity and until you're in it, they really don't understand it because I can remember.
[12:08]I worked for, I used to be a reporter at Rolling Stone and every time I had to interview an older females, you know, musician like share somebody they would say, okay, so ask her what it's like to get older. And I would, you know, I didn't even realize how obnoxious that question was like, you know, and I can remember.
[12:26]And I was probably part and said, it sucks in that. And I love that. But like it also sucks to be asked that question by some stupid 25 year old who, you know, that being me.
[12:38]But just didn't realize. I mean, that's the thing too that makes me feel so depressed is that, you know, again, until you're going through it, you just don't have that empathy for your menopausal sisters.
[12:50]When I talked to my mother, I said, so what was your experience like, she used to sell office furniture. So she would be in this conference room with a bunch of men.
[13:00]And she would be dripping like I was, and she, she said that she'll never forget the sound of her sweat dripping onto the conference table.
[13:09]And she, she wouldn't know what to do. She, she learned not to wear white blouses because she would get so soaked and then her bra would show and I just thought, God, I didn't know any of this, you know, I can.
[13:22]I found some diaries not long ago that I'd say, did you save your diaries, but did you keep a diary and did you save your diaries kept many diaries saved them all. Have you looked through them recently.
[13:33]I walked into my office one day and my teenage son was like sitting on my windowsill like deep into this one and he's like, Mom, this is when you'd had five drinks and like, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[13:43]I was like, okay, let's get on all these people. And he's like, where were you? And I was like, who like give me some more context.
[13:52]Anyway, he kept mentioning all these people. I have no idea who they were. I have no memory of these people at all. I basically have finally figured out it was a summer trip I went on.
[14:00]Okay, the names to your menopause point. I have no memory at all. I can't remember anything anymore. I name slip everything so.
[14:08]Yes, I haven't, I haven't read them recently, but I probably should the long answer.
[14:13]I mean, I find this fascinating because I read my diaries for the first time. I have a daughter who's 14 and I thought, Oh, well, show, you know, maybe she can relate.
[14:24]And I looked through them and it was all about, oh, my mom is so crabby. Oh, my mom is, you know, what's wrong with her. She's so irritable.
[14:31]And I was just clueless. And now of course I put it together. That's what was going on with her. And I just, I just didn't know. So yeah, I feel bad.
[14:41]But now we talk about it a lot.
[14:44]I was asking me the other day about like now I have a belly, which, you know, I used to have other places that the weight deposited, which I had become good at figuring out how to conceal.
[14:54]But anyway, now it's, there's a lot of weight in my belly and my daughter was like, so what should you do from before until now. So like when I grow up.
[15:04]Like what she was looking for tips. Like, what did you do wrong mom type of thing. And I was like, well, honey, when you're certain age, you're, you go through menopause and all of a sudden your metabolism slams on the brakes and you get a belly.
[15:19]Congratulations.
[15:21]That's it. That's a nice simple way to put it, you know, because that was another thing that I wrote about is that I was kind of keeping it a secret from my husband. I was playing into that stigma that unnecessary stigma.
[15:32]And, you know, when sex started to hurt when I was running to the bathroom a lot more often. I didn't tell him like a very simple explanation like you gave your daughter like it's kind of like reverse puberty.
[15:43]And the hormones are leaving my body. It makes the tissues a lot more irritable because, you know, estrogen keeps your skin supple. And that's why I have a little, why I race to the bathroom, why I cringe and grimace during sex, which is probably not an aphrodisiac.
[15:58]And once I explained to him, then it was then the pressure was up. He assumed I didn't care for him anymore. And, and, you know, I was doing him a disservice because then he was able to know what was going on with me.
[16:14]And he could sort of be in on it with me instead of, you know, and PS he's getting a little too. He's getting older too like we're all getting older. And so, you know, it's not the sexiest topic in the world, but I felt immediately better after I talked to him about it.
[16:33]I said something recently to my husband, too. I said something like, you know, I've passed my prime.
[16:40]And did he know that that was a cue for him to say, no, you haven't. How did you know that he's making all sorts of funny jokes about it because he's very funny. So, you know, whenever I do something now really, I don't know anything that he just makes jokes.
[16:58]Like, oh, here's your prime, huh? Yeah, here we go. But it's not exactly something you want to advertise to your partner as like, you know, because it's not like the most, I mean, not like they don't see you in all your various glory anyway.
[17:14]I don't know. There's some allure that's like, it's mixed up with like coloring your hair and like wrinkles and like this compulsion to like, you know, hide that you're not this young, youthful, dewy spouse.
[17:31]100%. I mean, and I had that exact, you know, dilemma as well. And it even extended to when, you know, you often get brain fog. I certainly did. I was very worried because that's when I started writing the book and I thought, how am I going to even talk about this? If I can't remember, you know, words.
[17:50]And I would trail off. I remember saying to Tom, my husband like, can you hand me that I could not think of the words butter knife to say, I really, I yelled that the shiny thing the shiny thing you spread butter on it. Like, I couldn't remember and I thought, oh boy, this is not good.
[18:08]But there is very good research. Many experts told me the brain fog goes away. And I just found that's so exciting. Like it really isn't all bad.
[18:18]And when you lose something and it's returned to you, I think that's a miracle. And so in fact, my brain fog did largely go away. I mean, some of it is just, you know, getting older and it'll never go away.
[18:33]But much of it did. And my memory became sharp again and I was able to remember what a butter knife was. And so that was a plus.
[18:42]And now I'm mostly kind of through it. I'm out at the other side. I went through menopause properly. I, you know, did the year long thing. Oh, see, maybe I do have brain fog, the year long thing.
[18:55]And now I wait, what year long thing. What do you mean? Like the, or around the, you're asking for clarification. I know because one of my things.
[19:04]I went, I went officially through menopause because I went a whole year without having my period.
[19:11]That's the translation of the year long thing. Okay. And I remember at one point, I was swimming. I used to do open water swimmingries swim in large bodies of water.
[19:19]And I remember getting, you know, it's not an official term of flash period. But I got an epic period while I was swimming in the water and a group of barracuda were following me.
[19:29]So that was a little awkward. I really had like the crime scene period that you read about. However, that said, I am now through everything.
[19:38]But it's not flash every once in a while. But it's more like, you know, Miami, then Satan's base heater. Right. It's like mild. It's not so bad. I wake up occasionally.
[19:50]But once you're through, it's kind of great. And you really do revert back. I was just listening to Jane Fonda talking about this that you revert back.
[20:00]your pre-menstrual self when you were like a kid and kind of a weirdo and you're fully inhabiting,
[20:09]you're weird self and that's the way I feel now and it's kind of great. You remember how
[20:15]he used to be before the whole period thing started before you were kind of tethered to your
[20:21]monthly cycles of one way or another and I'm not anymore. I know it sounds so menopositivity
[20:29]that I don't care what people think, if I did care what people think, what I'd be talking about
[20:32]how I pee myself on your podcast which I really don't care and that's freeing also and I told my
[20:41]daughter, I'm in my 50s and she said what was the best decade that you've ever had,
[20:46]fully expecting me to say my teenage years or my 20s or whatever and I really think it's now
[20:51]and I'm just having a lot of fun now. I don't know who would have thought. If I had told myself
[20:58]that when I was her age I would have said yeah right you know that's some sort of like
[21:02]propaganda that you tell people when they get older to make them feel better but it's not true.
[21:06]In my case anyway, I don't know, my mom actually always told me that the 40s were her favorite time
[21:12]and my grandmother would always say like she felt like people told her she looked better and better
[21:16]the older she got and she's like I've never looked better than in my 90s this is like I'm hitting my
[21:21]stride. See I want to be like that it's like my my mom just called me recently and said oh there
[21:29]was this old ending the supermarket she was getting on my nerves she wouldn't move and I was
[21:32]behind her and I was getting some impatient and I thought you're 82. Like you know it's that
[21:38]that expression that old age is 15 years older than you are and I think that's you know people's
[21:43]just general discomfort with being labeled as old which I do get and my mom doesn't consider herself
[21:49]old. I don't know what I don't know if I can even ask really what it what is old to you you know
[21:56]but yeah you know every age has has its difficulties but also its joys oh okay is this these are
[22:04]these are am I am I saying things that are like making throw up but it's it's really true.
[22:09]I actually I thought it was really interesting when you talked about grandparents for a while
[22:12]how when you said that women live longer than men how scientists think that's because
[22:19]women are such good caregivers for the young for their grandkids and so they should live
[22:24]longer so that they can help take care of the young. I had never known that before and I
[22:27]like love evolutionary stuff like that. It does make sense doesn't it does make sense I just
[22:33]know scientists but yeah it makes sense although now we were just talking about this at the times
[22:39]but there's there's a couple different biotech companies that want to eliminate menopause
[22:44]forever like that one company said that that was the moonshot to just delay it and delay it
[22:51]so that you don't go through it and that you're you know in sync with men who can you know like
[22:56]male rock stars who can run around fathering children you know when they were 80 or whatever so
[23:02]I don't know if that's a good idea or not it's kind of an interesting area delaying menopause but
[23:08]well the idea of getting rid of all the symptoms of it and all that sounds good but
[23:13]and definitely being able to have children like these poor kids you're gonna have like 90 year old
[23:17]parents you know like nobody will be able to pick them up I don't know.
[23:23]Speaking of kids another fun thing that I always ask people is the best age for a kid I know
[23:29]every kid is different but I I love the age of seven and I also love 13 for my daughter like
[23:37]what do you think it is like what are ages are especially sweet to you?
[23:41]oh gosh I love I mean I haven't eaten a nine-year-old right now and two 16-year-olds and like this
[23:48]I agree I think this like 789 10 that oh my gosh like it's really it's because they're verbal
[23:54]enough that you can have like really funny interesting conversations but they're not old enough to
[24:00]like have a total attitude or anything so yeah yep they still think you're cool yep oh my gosh
[24:08]okay so what is coming next for you you wrote this book you can have it you're a reporter
[24:13]journalist everything like where do you go from here you've told the world your innermost secrets
[24:20]what next are you going back to more purely reported stuff are you diving deeper into this
[24:26]menopause lifestyle thing where are you going? you know I don't know my books I mean they
[24:34]definitely reflect kind of what's going on with me and I've been I've been looking around and I
[24:40]don't know I don't know what to do next I write about health and wellness so that's always like an
[24:46]area that I like I really don't know I wonder if there's a way as you say to kind of delve more
[24:54]deeply with menopause and just kind of aging in general yeah I don't know it took me long enough
[25:02]to figure out this book but you know even a couple years ago I floated the idea to people to
[25:08]publishers and my agent and people said no you know no and now things have really changed and that's
[25:15]when I get when I feel frustrated it's not like you know policies are reflecting that now
[25:20]right or anything like that but even a few years ago things are really different like we are
[25:25]moving forward about awareness just as you said earlier and it's it's great like you know it
[25:32]seems slow but it's it's really not so I don't I this is my suggestion for you I think you should
[25:38]write like a sitcom and I know you referenced the times where menopause even played into things
[25:44]like all in the family and whatever but I think you should do something because your mom character
[25:49]is so funny I mean I know she's actually your mom but she's like a character in the book but like
[25:54]something with you and your mom and your daughter and have it be this like very funny like three
[26:02]generations and have this whole theme sort of like between the periods or something okay that is
[26:09]a great it because you know you you talk to authors were always looking for projects and it can
[26:14]be really hard sometimes and oh my mom would love that when I do when I do book events my mother
[26:20]sometimes stands up and answers the question she would be so very much on board with this idea
[26:27]let's get it that way yeah yeah you know there isn't when I was looking back on how menopause
[26:33]is represented in pop culture there are a few television shows or movie scenes but most of it is
[26:40]pretty abysmal so yeah we could we could certainly do better in that area yeah plus you have
[26:46]all these quotes from famous people I think it I think you could really make this something fun
[26:50]and very cool I don't know that's your task oh where are you based by the way I think I read this
[26:56]but now I can remember in New Jersey I used to live in Brooklyn for 20 years and then my daughter
[27:02]didn't get into the public middle schools that she applied to is you hear this a lot and so
[27:08]we put the apartment up for sale and I moved to New Jersey because I didn't expect this is a
[27:14]long story the short story is I have moved one town over from where I grew up for various reasons
[27:21]and so daily I drive by the cul-de-sac where I used to make out with Mike McCloskey is that a good thing
[27:29]is that a good thing to be so immersed in your past is it perfect for the sitcom this is perfect
[27:34]for the sitcom and this is great because Margaret and her family and are you there it's got
[27:39]it's me Margaret they moved to New Jersey also from New York they did I don't know there's something
[27:44]there you you can find that's cosmic sign yeah it's okay thank you so much jancy not jacie
[27:51]jancy done fellow odd name woman like myself and I'm glad you're in the area because I would love
[27:57]to meet you at some point this is really fun so let's do it there's a lot to talk about isn't there
[28:01]clearly so clearly thank you for having me matching the surface okay thanks so much bye bye
[28:09]thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to
[28:13]follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for
[28:18]my newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on
[28:23]zoom every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan fact texture sound for the sound editing
[28:28]and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[28:32]now trim music