Damien Cave, PARENTING LIKE AN AUSTRALIAN: One Family's Quest to Fight Fear and Dive Into a Better, Braver Life
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[1:03]Damien Cave is the author of parenting like an Australian, one family's quest to fight
[1:08]fear and dive into a better, braver life.
[1:10]Damien has worked for the New York Times since 2004, mostly as a foreign and national correspondent.
[1:15]He and his wife Diana were finalists for the Pulitzer Prize in international reporting in 2008
[1:20]with a team and Baghdad when covering the Iraq War.
[1:23]And since 2017, they have lived in Sydney, Australia with their two children.
[1:28]On most days, they can be found in the water or planning some kind of trip to somewhere
[1:32]adventurous.
[1:33]Welcome, Damien.
[1:34]Thank you so much for coming on mom's time time to read books to discuss parenting like
[1:37]an Australian, one family's quest to fight fear and dive into a better, braver life.
[1:43]Thank you.
[1:44]Happy to be here.
[1:45]Great.
[1:46]So you start the book with an offer to go to Australia for the Times and your wife and
[1:51]you are in New York.
[1:52]And she's not sure.
[1:53]You're not sure she's going to want to leave.
[1:56]And you have this very lovely meditation on the pros and cons of New York City, which
[2:00]is the native New Yorker.
[2:01]I very much appreciate it.
[2:03]And then of course you go to Australia and learn so much from everything from how kids
[2:08]learn to swim, to politics, everything else.
[2:11]How did you decide to turn this into a book and when did you do the book and tell me anything
[2:17]else related to the book?
[2:18]Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about risk, I think, for a while and parenting.
[2:22]And so my wife Diana and I after we moved from covering the war in Iraq to Miami to a place
[2:29]which has a very different set of risks and we had our kids there, I started noticing
[2:33]that maybe our thoughts about risks seem to be slightly different from some of the other
[2:37]parents and our parenting groups.
[2:39]So I think I sort of think about it then.
[2:41]But I then I sort of forgot about it and just got busy and did what every parent does is
[2:44]just try to survive this for a few years.
[2:47]But when I came to Australia, it just really was kind of a different confrontation about
[2:51]parenting and risk and community and all these things that I hadn't thought about in a while.
[2:55]And I think the book kind of grew out of an experience where right after I threw my kids
[3:00]into nippers into this junior life sitting program, they're apparently every Australian
[3:04]does, at least every Australian in my neighborhood.
[3:07]And I wrote this small, you know, missive, this sort of newsletter thing that we had for
[3:12]the times at the time, you know, a few hundred words dashed off quickly.
[3:17]And the response was really overwhelming, like a lot of Australians and Americans got in touch
[3:21]with me and said, oh wow, I hadn't thought about it this much.
[3:24]This is just something we take for granted, the way that kids sort of deal with risk
[3:28]collectively, the way that parents participate in this whole process and the way that
[3:33]they don't, if they're just standing on the side of a soccer pitch.
[3:36]And so all of that got me thinking, well, hey, maybe there's something here.
[3:40]And then that was sort of confirmed when my son challenged me to actually join this crazy
[3:45]culture of self-life saving and I failed.
[3:50]So at that point, I was like, all right, maybe I should just start taking notes.
[3:55]Maybe there's something here that other people can learn from not just my own failures,
[3:59]but this experience of being, you know, I just try to end up pointed like, it's not like
[4:03]a fish out of water.
[4:04]It's like a buffalo trying to learn how to swim.
[4:06]And so that's sort of what it felt like for us trying to embrace the culture of Australia,
[4:10]both in the water and as parents and as citizens too, it was just really confronting
[4:14]in ways that I didn't expect.
[4:16]Wow.
[4:17]Quick question.
[4:18]How do your wife and kids feel about you writing about them?
[4:23]Was that ever a question?
[4:25]You know, I had them, I had them read to the court when it sort of came up as a possibility.
[4:30]I had them read, you know, the relevant sections and my kids just thought it was kind
[4:35]of weird, like, why are you doing this?
[4:36]This seems boring to me.
[4:39]And my wife and I had intense conversations about about it and some ways it helped sort
[4:43]of put the whole process into perspective.
[4:46]You know, she's a filmmaker and a creative journalist and it's done a lot of things.
[4:49]She works in the books industry now.
[4:51]And so she had a lot, a lot of input initially like back in the day when we thought about
[4:56]writing a book, we thought about trying to do it together.
[4:58]So she was totally very, very involved and I think it sort of clarified what the experience
[5:03]meant to both of us to have her so involved.
[5:06]But you know, it's a funny thing.
[5:07]Now my kids are a little bit older and they've gone back some of the sections and,
[5:12]you know, they started, they were defining the other day about who was the real star
[5:16]of the book.
[5:17]So they don't seem to mind.
[5:19]I love that.
[5:21]How did it feel going from journalistic tendencies and shorter pieces to long form like
[5:27]this and really sort of delving in and going over different topics and tracking things
[5:31]that were, you know.
[5:32]Yeah, good question.
[5:33]I mean, honestly, for me, it was really hard.
[5:36]Like one of the hardest parts of the book was learning how to sort of let go of my third
[5:40]person neutral observer role about sort of observing the world and kind of dive into
[5:47]what was going on in my own head and just finding a voice for myself was like a lot harder
[5:52]than I expected.
[5:53]I do think my wife was quite helpful in that and you just kept telling me just keep going
[5:57]and be more honest is what she kept saying.
[6:00]And so I do think that was quite helpful.
[6:02]But you know, it is one of those things where you're, and this is sort of what the book
[6:06]is about too.
[6:07]It's about me letting go a little bit of that like observer role.
[6:11]I mean, Australians demand that you participate, you know, like they throw the wrong around
[6:15]you and they put you behind the grill and they tell you to cook sausages and they throw
[6:18]you in the water and they expect you to do a lot of things that Americans I think are
[6:22]hesitant to impose on you.
[6:25]And so part of it was both in writing and in my personal experience, I to let go of that
[6:29]individualism.
[6:30]I'd let go of that American sense of, oh, don't bother them.
[6:33]Don't impose.
[6:34]Let them do their own thing.
[6:35]Because Australians just don't think quite as much that way.
[6:38]There's a real sense of, no, we're in this together and whether you know how to do it
[6:41]or not doesn't matter.
[6:43]Like you're going to learn and you're going to learn with me.
[6:45]So that's that both in both writing and experience, I had to do that.
[6:48]So as not just swimming related and what, how have you seen the, where are the long term
[6:55]effects of being exposed to a different type of parenting?
[6:58]Like what have you adopted for good in your own house?
[7:01]I think generally trying to be a little less stressed and a little more willing to let
[7:06]my kids explore and to trust a bit more that somebody else might pick up the pieces
[7:12]if something goes wrong.
[7:13]Yeah.
[7:14]And I've seen that happen.
[7:15]I mean, this happened after I finished the book, but my son was skateboarding, you know,
[7:18]in the middle of Sydney, like taking public transportation, he's 11 years old.
[7:22]He's with his friends.
[7:23]He's out for the day and he breaks his arm and we get this frantic call from one of his
[7:28]friends saying, oh, my God, bad broke his arm and I can't figure out what they're saying
[7:32]or where they are.
[7:33]And then suddenly this other dad who I've never met gets on the phone and says, hey, listen,
[7:39]he definitely broke his arm.
[7:41]I'm trained in first aid.
[7:43]You're definitely going to need him take the hospital.
[7:44]I don't think you need an ambulance.
[7:46]I'm going to sit here with him until you get here.
[7:48]And so this that when I got there, he had like two toddlers who were sitting there
[7:52]with him and he just stayed with my son for, you know, for a half hour or longer until
[7:56]I got there.
[7:57]And that's the way the culture works, like when people need help, you help them.
[8:01]And so, you know, one of the things I think I've adopted is just allowing that optimism
[8:05]and human nature to dominate how I parent and to allow my kids to really, you know, test
[8:10]themselves, make mistakes and trust that there will be some other people around who will
[8:14]help them out.
[8:16]And then I guess that's one thing.
[8:17]Another thing I think too is to just remember to keep pushing into places that are
[8:21]uncomfortable, you know, whether for my son, it's public speaking in debate or my daughter
[8:26]it's team sports, like not being afraid to really push them and then in the long run
[8:31]knowing that that's probably going to be okay, having come from suddenly being forced
[8:36]and pushed into things by Australians and realizing that even as an adult, that's a good
[8:41]thing.
[8:42]And I guess the third thing related to that is that, you know, sometimes we talk about
[8:45]parenting is if it's always our relationship to our children, how we talk to them, what
[8:49]we tell them to do.
[8:51]But I actually started to think after doing this book that a lot of what we need to do
[8:54]is parents is be better models for our kids about how to live a rich life.
[8:58]And so sometimes throwing yourself into things that are risky, throwing yourself into things
[9:02]where you're a beginner again, where you don't know everything, where you're, you know,
[9:06]your kids see your humility and your failure and your ability to overcome that.
[9:10]Like in a lot of ways, that does a lot more than saying, hey, have a growth mindset
[9:13]and be resilient kid.
[9:15]So learning to live a better life as a parent, as an individual and as a citizen, I actually
[9:20]think it's another thing that my wife and I have tried to adopt as much as we can.
[9:24]That's the lesson I need as well.
[9:26]I was pretty does.
[9:27]It's hard.
[9:28]You know, you're something in your lives and stuff.
[9:31]I know.
[9:32]I do try to like share, I have four kids and I do try to share and I'm like, you guys, I
[9:36]try to this thing at work.
[9:37]Like, what do you think?
[9:38]Like, let me have your, you know, what I, it might be a total failure.
[9:42]What I don't know.
[9:43]Should I try?
[9:44]What do you think?
[9:45]Yeah, exactly.
[9:46]And I find, I mean, I don't know this case for you, but I found I learned a lot from the
[9:49]the wisdom of my kids.
[9:50]Like, there were various times along and the away in this process where I didn't think
[9:54]they were processing this and then they would just come out with this bit of childhood
[9:58]wisdom that like,
[10:00]really resonated for me.
[10:01]And so sometimes it's worth giving them the opportunity.
[10:04]That's true.
[10:05]That's true.
[10:06]Do your kids have any writing on their horizon?
[10:10]Like, have you raised writers?
[10:12]You know, it's a good question.
[10:13]Mike, my daughter in particular,
[10:15]she, whenever she does her writing stuff for school,
[10:17]creative writing or English, she tended to write really long.
[10:21]So she asked me to sort of edit it.
[10:23]And she's the one who like, in her spare time,
[10:25]will like, I'll find these notes in her room
[10:27]for processing out some narrative or some story
[10:31]or something like that.
[10:31]So she sort of got that brain.
[10:33]My son is much more fact-based.
[10:35]Like, he's a really great writer about history.
[10:37]And he's like, really into history.
[10:39]So yeah, they're both like remarkably good at it, actually.
[10:43]I mean, I think that's probably, I probably put pressure on them.
[10:45]Really, just I want to read everything they write.
[10:48]And so I imagine that that, you know,
[10:50]makes it harder for them sometimes.
[10:52]But it's great.
[10:53]I mean, like I said, I learned so much from their writing
[10:55]and seeing them improve is like such a thrill
[10:57]that, you know, trying to teach them
[10:59]that writing is something that we all can do in life,
[11:01]whether you're become a writer or not.
[11:03]And then you're going to need it, no matter what.
[11:05]Despite the fact that no one is studying English anymore
[11:07]at universities, learning how to communicate
[11:09]and tell stories is important.
[11:12]Yeah, and that, when did you learn that?
[11:13]Like, when did that, when did you get that bug?
[11:16]You know, for me, it started pretty early.
[11:18]My grandfather was this old, you know, World War II
[11:21]depression or a guy who used to just sit me in bed
[11:24]when I was a kid and tell me stories.
[11:26]Some of them were total kid's fiction stories
[11:28]about Frank Fox, the Foxy Fox,
[11:31]but some of them were, you know,
[11:32]about growing up in Brooklyn
[11:34]and learning how to be honest
[11:35]in difficult circumstances and a whole bunch of things.
[11:38]And he just, he couldn't help himself.
[11:40]Like whenever I was around him, he would tell stories.
[11:42]And so to some degree, I think that was the origin for me.
[11:45]But I didn't really get into journalism
[11:46]and writing until pretty late.
[11:47]You know, I was an English major.
[11:49]I thought I'd go to law school
[11:50]and sort of fell into journalism
[11:52]and loved the fact that it meant I could explore the world,
[11:54]the fact that I didn't have to sit behind, you know,
[11:56]a desk all my life.
[11:58]And yeah, at various points, I've been an editor,
[12:00]I've done other things, but I had the writing bug
[12:02]doesn't seem to go away.
[12:03]So I'm stuck with it.
[12:04]Was writing for the times like your childhood dream
[12:07]to everything?
[12:09]No, strangely enough.
[12:10]I mean, I actually, I worked,
[12:11]I started my career at a small newspaper in New Hampshire
[12:14]and swore I'd never worked for a newspaper again
[12:17]because they were rigid and too old fashioned
[12:19]and not changing fast enough.
[12:20]So I actually wrote for the web and magazines
[12:24]and was perfectly happy doing that
[12:27]until kind of 9-11 and all of that happened.
[12:30]And I started to feel like I needed to get out in the world
[12:33]and the big sort of newspaper institutions
[12:35]were the ones more likely to send you around the world.
[12:37]And so, you know, now for most of my career
[12:40]at the times I've spent outside the United States.
[12:42]So it's worked out, but it's never the place
[12:44]I always expected to be, I do love it.
[12:47]It's a family, but as my editor at some point said to me,
[12:50]it can't be your only family.
[12:52]So, you know, it's a good and wonderful
[12:54]and amazing place with lots of colleagues,
[12:56]but it's not the only place to be in good journalism.
[12:59]Interesting.
[13:00]So now that you've done a book,
[13:02]are you thinking about more books?
[13:04]Are you thinking about more reported things?
[13:07]I mean, I know you have a whole chapter on your trip
[13:09]to New Zealand and like what that was like
[13:11]and covering all of that, like, do you wanna just,
[13:13]I don't know, what do you think?
[13:15]Yeah, it's a good question.
[13:16]I mean, I learned, I did this book important,
[13:18]I think, to learn how to do a book.
[13:20]It's something that I wanted to do.
[13:21]And I ended up choosing a challenge
[13:23]that was more than I even expected trying
[13:26]to sort of blend memoir and social science
[13:29]and history was enormously challenging.
[13:31]So I think the next book I've thought about is it would either
[13:33]be something that's like very straight journalism,
[13:37]very clear around, you know, it could be anything
[13:40]from changing geopolitics to demographic,
[13:42]something that's like reportage,
[13:44]but with a clear nonfiction here are 10 chapters
[13:47]and 10 places instructor.
[13:49]You know, or something that is more argumentative
[13:53]and that has like a clear sort of point of view.
[13:57]And again, it's sort of less about me, basically.
[13:59]I think I'm done for a bit,
[14:01]writing about is directly about me.
[14:03]But I do think I learned a ton.
[14:04]I mean, I think writing a book like this
[14:07]when you're used to writing the kind of formal pieces
[14:10]that are required in your times
[14:11]opens up your writerliness, I suppose, a bit.
[14:15]And so I feel like I've actually taken a lot of what I've
[14:17]learned from writing the book in terms of style,
[14:19]in terms of like finding that balance
[14:21]between my own perspective and third person perspective
[14:25]and actually put it into the times.
[14:27]And so, you know, I have a big travel piece coming out soon
[14:31]that's about our family road trip to Western Australia
[14:33]in a van and in many ways it feels like an extension
[14:36]of the book.
[14:37]And so, you know, I'm finding ways to kind of insert
[14:39]some of what I've learned and other writing to.
[14:42]If the time needs an essay about traveling to Tokyo with kids,
[14:46]I just wrote one.
[14:47]Oh, really?
[14:48]Yeah.
[14:49]Tokyo is great.
[14:49]In Tokyo is amazing.
[14:50]I was there in January with a family, too.
[14:53]And it was amazing.
[14:53]Great city.
[14:54]Yeah, we survived.
[14:56]That's amazing.
[14:57]In the beginning of the book, you very quickly
[15:01]skate past the loss of your mother, which I imagine
[15:05]brings up much more than you wrote about, perhaps,
[15:07]on purpose.
[15:08]But you wrote about how she had been hit by a cart
[15:11]tragically trying to give back to a halfway house
[15:13]in her drug addiction and everything.
[15:14]I was wondering if you are willing to talk about that
[15:17]and you totally don't have to.
[15:18]Yeah, no, I'm happy to.
[15:19]I mean, you know, my mother was this figure
[15:21]who was sort of in and out of my life.
[15:23]My father was much more present, although the way
[15:26]he describes it, the way he ended up with me
[15:28]was just that he was slightly messed up, slightly less messed
[15:30]up than she was.
[15:31]So, you know, they were hippies who met in Jamaica,
[15:34]married literally six weeks after they laid eyes on each other.
[15:37]So, you know, I think that the probability of the marriage
[15:39]working out was low from the start.
[15:42]But they ended up with me, right?
[15:43]And so, my mother, I think, was always trying to figure out
[15:45]how to live this creative wildlife
[15:47]and yet also be a parent.
[15:49]And at various points, she did it well.
[15:51]At various points, she did not.
[15:53]And as she got older and I got older,
[15:55]my grandparents basically sort of said,
[15:58]okay, now it's up to you to sort of help manage the situation.
[16:02]And so, I think I learned a lot at that point
[16:06]about what it means to not just be a child,
[16:08]but also almost be a parent for a parent.
[16:10]And so, you know, when she was evicted
[16:12]and getting her into halfway houses
[16:14]and doing all of these things was really challenging for me.
[16:17]But I do think, you know, when you go through
[16:18]these difficult circumstances
[16:20]and there's like a little hint of this
[16:21]in some of the research in the book, you know,
[16:23]a little bit of adversity actually makes you a better person.
[16:26]And so, in some ways, like I think I learned
[16:29]how to deal with that.
[16:29]And, you know, and as a journalist,
[16:31]it opens up like a whole nother range of humanity
[16:35]who I can connect with and who I can talk to.
[16:37]And, you know, whether it's in the streets
[16:39]of some poor town in New Jersey
[16:41]or Haiti after an earthquake or, you know,
[16:43]Iraq in the war, like this sort of heart
[16:47]that I think I have for journalism and telling stories.
[16:50]Sometimes I feel like people can sense
[16:53]that there's this sort of hairline fracture in my soul
[16:55]that comes from my mother
[16:56]and that they can connect with me
[16:58]because despite that New York Times title,
[17:00]like there's something different about this person.
[17:02]And so, to some degree, I think of that as a gift
[17:04]that my mother gave me without really intending to.
[17:07]But it took a while to get there.
[17:09]You know, I think, you know, having that sort of experience
[17:11]of it, it's funny, just the other day I was cleaning out
[17:14]some of my old files and found all these notes
[17:17]that I had taken when she was calling me
[17:19]and, you know, in the midst of difficult times.
[17:22]And there's almost a humor in it too.
[17:24]And so, in some ways, like I think I've gotten
[17:26]to a place where I'm able to sort of appreciate
[17:28]just how much she tried to live her life.
[17:30]And, you know, her death was a surprise,
[17:33]but in some ways it's a miracle she got as far as she did.
[17:36]So, she had a toughness too or two
[17:39]that I think I always appreciate as well.
[17:41]An expression, a hairline fracture of my soul.
[17:44]That's good.
[17:45]You should write that essay.
[17:46]Yeah.
[17:47]I haven't used that before.
[17:48]So, yeah.
[17:49]Write it down.
[17:50]That was a good one.
[17:51]Yeah, I should.
[17:52]I mean, I joke, but I think it's so relatable, right?
[17:55]Everybody who has experienced a profound loss, right?
[17:59]Because it's something that it's hard to see
[18:03]and yet felt all the time.
[18:05]And sometimes hard to repair.
[18:08]So, no good treatment.
[18:09]Yeah, exactly.
[18:11]And in some ways, like, you know, what I was trying
[18:13]to do with my kids, with risk is I want them to be strong
[18:16]enough to handle whatever life throws at them, you know?
[18:18]And like, one of the reasons why it's not a good idea
[18:20]to keep your kids away from risk and hardship
[18:23]is because then when the real hardship comes,
[18:24]they're not ready and they're not able to deal with it.
[18:26]And like, there's tons and tons of research
[18:28]that basically shows that the kids who are exposed
[18:31]to sort of challenges early in life and have some exerts,
[18:34]some level of control over it and overcome those difficulties
[18:37]are stronger throughout the rest of their life.
[18:40]And it doesn't have to be directly related.
[18:42]So if you get really good at dealing with the fears
[18:44]of sharks and waves, you're also probably gonna be good
[18:47]at dealing with, you know, seeing something
[18:49]tragic happen in your life.
[18:50]And so, in some ways, there's enormous hope in that, you know,
[18:53]that like the human spirit is strong enough
[18:55]to overcome small challenges in order to prepare
[18:57]for big challenges.
[18:58]And so, it's something that you forget,
[19:00]I think is apparent and as a human,
[19:02]but it's actually kind of hardwired into us.
[19:06]So it's interesting after you've had to parent your parents
[19:09]to then go on and write a whole book about parenting.
[19:11]Do you know who you are?
[19:13]Yeah, I know.
[19:14]I mean, you know, everybody's had periods
[19:15]where I think they feel like they're parenting
[19:17]their parents, but it just comes
[19:18]at different times for all of us.
[19:20]Yeah.
[19:21]I interviewed this morning, Andrew Ricker,
[19:22]who wrote a novel.
[19:24]This is like completely different,
[19:25]but this his whole approach to parenting,
[19:27]or not parenting with his parents was talking,
[19:29]and he put it in his novel is about like kind of making
[19:32]these protective rooms where he would sort of go in
[19:36]when something in his family was like somebody was driving
[19:39]crazy, essentially.
[19:40]Although he said it nicely about his family
[19:42]and that that was like a trick that he used.
[19:44]And then of course the character in the book uses it.
[19:46]And it's like we all are taking the devices that we use
[19:49]and the tricks and tools that we've had to develop
[19:53]to cope with whatever our families bring.
[19:55]And then somehow we have to like share them in books
[19:59]for the rest of the world.
[20:00]Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I had a professor once who said, you know, writers have a teacher
[20:05]preacher complex, like they're constantly trying to help others, even though they're trying
[20:10]to help themselves at the same time. Yes. Very interesting. Amazing. All right. Well, what's your
[20:16]parting advice for aspiring authors? You know, I think don't give up and keep keep sort of
[20:22]mulling over the ideas. Like one of the things I think that took some getting used to for me
[20:26]as a, you know, daily newspaper journalist is the timeframe of a book. It's so much longer in
[20:31]slower and it gestates in a different way. And I guess be okay with that, you know, like for me,
[20:37]it took a while. I was started thinking about this many, many years ago. The book took a couple of years,
[20:42]you know, it's still, I still get emails from people who like saw something about it, you know,
[20:46]in Australia when I published before I published in the US. And just being okay with like the slow
[20:52]process and actually embracing that is like one thing, one piece of advice that would give to people.
[20:57]And the second thing I would say is try to land on a structure as quickly as you can.
[21:03]The stress of like writing, researching, and figuring out the structure is a lot. And sometimes a
[21:09]simple structure will, will go a long way. Once I sort of figured out the structure of this book,
[21:13]it got a lot easier. So maybe that's just me, but I think slow down, allow for the time,
[21:18]and try to figure out what the structure is as soon as possible or my two pieces of contradictory advice.
[21:25]Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I love it. Parenting like an Australian, hoping to, you know,
[21:32]extract some of the things I learned into my own over-productive parenting and get a little bit
[21:38]better at modeling some of the risk taking myself. So thank you for that. Thank you. Thanks for
[21:43]having me. It was great. Okay, take care. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't
[21:50]Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't
[21:55]Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual
[22:01]book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan
[22:05]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[22:10]this fantastic intro and outro music.