Dina Gachman, SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS: How I Learned to Live with Grief, and Other Grave Concerns
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes.
[0:34]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:58]Enjoy.
[1:03]Dina Gashman is the author of So Sorry for Your Loss, how I learn to live with grief and
[1:08]other grave concerns.
[1:10]Dina is an award-winning journalist, Pulitzer Center grantee, and a frequent contributor
[1:14]to The New York Times, Fox, Texas Monthly, and more.
[1:18]She's a New York Times best-selling ghostwriter and the author of Brokenomics, 50 Ways to
[1:22]Live the Dream on a Time.
[1:24]She lives near Austin, Texas with her husband, and said, Welcome, Dina.
[1:28]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss So Sorry
[1:32]for Your Loss.
[1:33]How I learn to live with grief and other grave concerns.
[1:36]Thank you for having me.
[1:37]My gosh.
[1:38]First of all, I know I shouldn't say I'm sorry for your loss and it's the title, but you're
[1:44]writing about your mom and your sister with so poignant and beautiful.
[1:49]And I am sorry and I am in the kingdom of the fellow grief people.
[1:54]OK.
[1:55]So just to give you the secret handshake on that from the start.
[1:59]But you can feel the love so vibrantly through the story, really, really feel it.
[2:06]So anyway, thank you for writing about it.
[2:08]Thank you for saying that.
[2:09]And I'm sorry you're in this kingdom.
[2:13]It's not fun.
[2:14]No one wants to be here, but yeah, I mean, that was one of the reasons I wanted to write
[2:16]the book.
[2:17]I feel like there's so many of us out there, obviously, and you do kind of have that
[2:21]secret handshake with people when you realize that they have deep grief in their life.
[2:26]And so I think there's amazing grief books and I felt like maybe with our story, there's
[2:32]something else to add to that shelf.
[2:34]Yes.
[2:35]Oh, my gosh.
[2:36]Actually, can I read a quote because you said you wrote something about this specifically.
[2:40]Sure.
[2:41]And you wrote about it in the beginning in the context of your friend Rachel, his brother
[2:44]had passed away.
[2:45]Yeah.
[2:46]You kind of reconnected with her at a different level.
[2:48]And you said grief isn't a language you learn slowly.
[2:51]There is no dual lingo for this.
[2:53]When it happens, it's as if a secret linguistic portal rips open.
[2:57]And suddenly there you are with an entirely new way of communicating and existing in the
[3:01]world.
[3:02]You have a psychic secret handshake with others who have gone through painful loss.
[3:07]I'm not as scared to ask Rachel questions anymore because I know that grief isn't something
[3:11]you should wrap up and store away like a fragile glass figurine.
[3:14]It will and should become part of you.
[3:16]Maybe even a tough, unbreakable part of you.
[3:19]But that realization did not happen on day one on day one.
[3:21]I tried to tuck my feelings away because I had a wedding shower to go to.
[3:25]Yes, I did.
[3:26]Perfect occasion when you, that was when I found out my mom was diagnosed with stage
[3:31]four calling cancer and it was right before the shower that my husband's co-workers
[3:36]were throwing.
[3:37]So that was a tough getting ready moments for me because it was one of those moments
[3:43]where I'm like, okay, I could just not go and I'm sure they'd understand.
[3:46]But you know, you have to life kind of moves on, right?
[3:49]And that's what most people that live with grief understand is like there's showers to
[3:53]go to.
[3:54]And kids to take care of and you kind of have to just kind of go along with it.
[3:59]So yeah, so before I had deep grief, I did not know how to talk to my friend Rachel
[4:03]or anybody else.
[4:04]I was super tongue-tied and it made me feel so intimidated.
[4:08]And I think that's part of the people I wanted to reach with the books here are people
[4:11]that maybe don't have deep grief in their life but feel really intimidated or scared to
[4:16]trigger somebody because it can be intimidating.
[4:19]That's why it's called so sorry for your loss.
[4:21]That's what everyone says, right?
[4:22]So once I had this come into my life, it became much easier to talk to Rachel or anybody
[4:28]about grief.
[4:29]And I appreciate your little cheat sheets for people who might not know how to talk about
[4:34]it.
[4:35]Words you should say and even though this is sort of a very, very personal memoir that
[4:39]you spin it around to give some actionable tips for anybody who's perusing.
[4:44]Maybe back up for a minute and tell listeners a little bit about the story and what happened
[4:50]with your mom and your sister and why you decided to turn it into a book.
[4:53]Exactly.
[4:54]Now we were just talking about it, but yes.
[4:56]So the book is rooted in my experiences.
[5:00]My mom was diagnosed to stage four colon cancer in 2015 and she died in 2018.
[5:05]And then my little sister Jackie suffered from alcoholism for years and years.
[5:10]And she died of alcoholism about two years after my mom.
[5:14]So it was very much the feeling when my sister died of, I can't believe we're doing
[5:19]this again.
[5:20]Like it was, we were just emerging sort of from all the grief of my mom and then this
[5:25]happened.
[5:26]And so it was two very profound losses back to back.
[5:30]And I didn't really write much about grief until about a year after my mom died.
[5:35]And I wrote an essay for the New York Times about our, we used to watch Hollywood red carpets
[5:40]and that's how we bonded.
[5:41]And so it was an essay about after she died, it was red carpet season.
[5:45]And so I was grappling with like, do I watch, do I not watch?
[5:47]And it sounds frivolous, but it was very serious to me.
[5:50]I was like, is it going to destroy me?
[5:53]Is it insulting if I don't watch like, you know, all those things.
[5:56]And so the essay was about me watching and that, and that becoming kind of a way for us
[6:00]to still bond even though she's not here.
[6:02]And it was a weird feeling of like, oh, I got him in the New York Times, but I wish
[6:06]I didn't have to write this and the book was a little bit that way too.
[6:09]But so I didn't think about writing a book until a couple months after Jackie died.
[6:14]And I think it was because when my mom died, I read amazing grief books and there are so
[6:18]many amazing ones.
[6:20]And when Jackie died, somebody sent me a book of quotes like Zen quotes.
[6:24]And I kept just putting it down like almost out of anger at night because I was like, I
[6:28]don't want to be soothed.
[6:29]I don't want to read about like babbling books and I want to be angry.
[6:32]And so the summer after she died, she died March 1st.
[6:36]So early that summer, I thought, you know what, maybe I can write this book.
[6:41]It was kind of that 20 more or something of like, if there's a book you want to read
[6:44]and it hasn't been written, go write it.
[6:46]And so it was kind of that feeling of like, I wanted to do part memoir, part reporting
[6:51]because I love reporting.
[6:52]I wanted humor in there because levity is very helpful when you're dealing with these
[6:56]things.
[6:57]And so it was early that summer that I thought, okay, maybe I can add to the shelf.
[7:02]Does writing help you like process, I feel like writing always like helps me so much.
[7:08]Like I realized what I'm thinking when I'm writing it down, like even though it was
[7:11]definitely just circulating, did you feel like getting through this whole process was sort
[7:16]of therapeutic in a way as well?
[7:19]It was definitely, I mean, you know, it's funny because there's that question of like,
[7:22]is it cathartic?
[7:23]Like I don't think of it as cathartic, right?
[7:25]But I think of it as it definitely helped me process even just what grief is because one
[7:31]reasons I wanted to learn more about grief, right?
[7:33]I'm not an expert.
[7:34]I haven't studied this in research this for years.
[7:36]I'm just an everyday person who lives with it.
[7:38]So I think the journalist in me was like, okay, if I'm going to live with this thing, let
[7:41]me just like face it down.
[7:42]He just like, get in the ring and like wrestle with it.
[7:46]And so it really was like, I loved interviewing people for the book because especially
[7:51]there's a chapter on, you know, parents who lost children, which I was very scared
[7:54]to write.
[7:56]So I almost cut it, thankfully my editor was like, no, no, no, no, you need to keep
[7:59]this in because I was really scared to talk to parents, right?
[8:02]It's the most intimidating thing, but I'm so glad it's in there because I learned the
[8:07]most from them and seeing, you know, how they move through the world with their grief,
[8:13]I think it's just, you know, it made the process really meaningful for me.
[8:18]And so it was tough for sure.
[8:20]There were a lot of like days of crying and just like going to watch my dog leap around
[8:24]to calm down, but I think the process helped me sort of just come to terms with grief.
[8:29]I want to say just by looking at it, if that makes sense.
[8:31]Awesome.
[8:32]Yeah.
[8:33]Actually, you exposed me to a few new things about grief that I didn't know.
[8:37]And I love your use of what did you call it?
[8:39]G I E A grief induced emotional avalanche, the unpredictable pathway through grief,
[8:45]fraught with choices you don't want to make full of firsts that results in a condition called
[8:49]this grief induced emotional avalanche.
[8:52]It's a close cousin of heart sirens that I pronounce it heart sirens, but additional
[8:58]symptoms include dizziness, confusion, anger, deep size, and maybe a few tears.
[9:03]I have yet to find a cure for G I E A. So I recommend supportive care, which may include
[9:07]taking a sick day to indulge in a good cry online shopping for things you don't need, but
[9:11]they bring you joy over price and it candles work wonders for me, a Bridgerton binge, a
[9:16]fast run or a loving nap, whatever you need to do to get you through it and you will get
[9:21]through it.
[9:22]Yeah, I know.
[9:23]That's the thing.
[9:24]It's like it just it feels, it does feel like an avalanche sometimes, like that was one
[9:27]of the things about grief that really surprised me is like the physicality of it at the
[9:31]beginning.
[9:32]It thankfully gets better, but you know, it feels like an avalanche of all the feelings,
[9:36]right?
[9:37]It's confusion, it's anger, it's your tired or you know, it's just, I mean, I'm sure you
[9:40]know, it's just everything and so you just have to kind of get through those moments
[9:45]really.
[9:46]Yeah.
[9:47]And as you wrote about, you know, the triggers can be one that is not talked about enough
[9:52]is when you see someone who looks just like the person in the midst of an ordinary moment
[9:58]and you're in it just like stops.
[10:00]on your tracks. It does. Yeah, I write about because my sister always died her hair like any
[10:04]any bright shade of red you can imagine. So like copper, burgundy. And so to this day, like when
[10:10]I see someone at a park or just see someone with any bright shade of red, like I really my heart
[10:15]actually stops. Like it just I felt forces me to just pause for a second. It's a really strange
[10:21]sensation that like I don't think it'll ever go away actually. And you actually write about
[10:28]seeing your sister at one point in her sort of throws about alcoholism and actually not even
[10:33]not saying hello. Can you talk about that scene? It was really good. Yeah. So my sister's you know
[10:39]throughout the book, but there's one that one chapter specifically about her. It was it was probably
[10:43]the hardest to write because you know, like I said, my sister suffered for years and I didn't write
[10:47]about her at all. Like it was too hard. I didn't understand it. I didn't understand the grief like grief
[10:53]you feel and someone's still alive. So I knew I wanted to start that chapter with that story
[10:58]because it was something I was ashamed of and that I didn't tell a lot of people. But what happened
[11:02]was we were living in New York at the same time. She was in Queens. I was in Brooklyn and I worked
[11:06]with my hand. You know, it had been a really tough couple months. Like she would flake on lunches and
[11:10]flake on dinners and wouldn't answer and anyone who's loved someone who has alcoholism or substance
[11:15]abuse issues probably understands that feeling of just anxiety and like why are they not calling me
[11:20]I was just a mess. So I was walking to work and I see her in the distance walking down Fifth Avenue,
[11:26]which is crazy. If anyone's been to New York, like that we would that I would see her. We didn't even
[11:30]live near each other. And I didn't say anything and I just stopped and I just let her walk by and
[11:35]it like makes me sad to even think about it. But in the moment, I knew that I was I'm walking into
[11:40]work to like weigh tables online. And I was so upset that we hadn't seen each other that I was
[11:45]I thought if I'd say something it could trigger me and I'm going to work and be a mess. So I just
[11:48]let her pass by. And so it did it haunted me for years. I never told her about that. And I just
[11:55]put it in the book because I think it's an example of how hard those relationships can be and how
[11:59]complicated they can be and you know learning about there's this term ambiguous loss that I talk
[12:05]about in the book that it's you know the grief isn't triggered by a death. It's triggered by
[12:10]either you know a substance abuse issue dementia mental health issue where you're grieving them when
[12:15]they're here. And so learning about that was very helpful to me. But yeah, that moment was one of
[12:20]many tough ones with her. And just I feel like it illustrated our relationship when she was drinking
[12:26]not when she was over. Yeah. And then her loss itself, you write about some of the circumstances of it
[12:34]and even the anger of when you were confronting somebody who had seen her last being like,
[12:39]okay, what is going on here? You know, because sometimes you can't have the answers and somehow
[12:44]knowing the answers seems so important. Yeah, even though it doesn't change the outcome,
[12:49]but it just and anyway, you had to go on sort of a search of why the police did not
[12:54]contact you. What took them so long? And did it? Like, how do you feel now? And do you feel
[12:59]like you have some closure on that whole situation? That's a good question. I mean, I'll always
[13:04]wonder because you know, just to explain from people haven't read it that you know, I think this
[13:08]happens with a lot of people who have substance abuse issues. They usually die alone. My sister
[13:12]was in a hotel, which I hate alone in Colorado. Like, she hadn't lived there that long. We were in
[13:18]Texas. Why was in California? My parents were in Texas. And, you know, the police at first said they
[13:23]found her, but they didn't say she died. So we were like, okay, they found her, she'll get back into
[13:27]detox. And then it was like hours later that they said that she was not alive. And then I went down
[13:34]a rabbit hole of like what happened? Who was with her? You know, you just asked all these questions
[13:38]with my mom, we sat there every day of hospice. We held her hand. I knew exactly what happened
[13:43]probably too much. Do much information. But with Jackie, it was, you know, it's a mystery. Like,
[13:49]I don't ever want to see that hotel room, but I will always imagine it. So in that sense,
[13:54]I don't think there's closure, but there's closure in the sense that I'm not making the calls anymore.
[13:57]I'm not, I'm not asking people like what happened. I just accept the fact that that's,
[14:03]you know, she died in that hotel room. I'm not, I'm not ever really going to know exactly what
[14:08]last day was like, but I do accept that part of it. And how is your, how is your dad? I found myself
[14:13]like, that's in such affection for your dad and your other siblings. Like you really
[14:18]introduced us to not just the ones you've lost, but your whole family like becomes
[14:23]you're all like a character. And obviously you're this close knit group. And I kind of wished I had more
[14:30]even like, this just sounds like creepy, but you know, like, you know, video footage of like
[14:35]younger years where you're all like, scampering about happy. And I like have this, I
[14:39]do like view of what it must have been like. You know, as you were all growing up and super close
[14:43]and it's like perfect family. That's hilarious. Yes. So basically my parents had four daughters. So
[14:49]we were, there was a lot of us. And my dad, you know, he's so funny. He's, he's doing okay. Right.
[14:54]I mean, he's been through a lot. Obviously he lost, I mean, my parents were together since they
[14:57]were like 16. So this was the love of his life and then losing his child. And he is amazing. I mean,
[15:03]my dad went straight into grief therapy and he goes to his grief group. So I'm very proud of him
[15:07]because there was a moment we were worried like when Jackie died when he said, I don't think I'm going
[15:11]to get through this one, which is very scary to hear like your, your remaining parents say. And so
[15:17]I was really scared that his personality would change or he would retreat, but he is not done that.
[15:22]Like he still works. He golf. See goes on dates, which is a whole other saga, but he's actually,
[15:28]you know, he's doing well. I mean, he, he is changed and he has his moments of sadness,
[15:32]but we're very open about it, which, you know, in the book I talk about it, that's been very
[15:36]helpful for us is just, you know, and I interviewed my dad throughout the book, which
[15:40]brought us even closer because I would literally call him in the middle of a work day and be like,
[15:43]can you tell me about this horrible moment? So, you know, he's doing okay. And I think he's,
[15:49]he thankfully has all the grief groups and all of that that give him a purpose to share his,
[15:55]you know, he likes to share his story and hear other people's as weird as that sounds.
[15:59]It does not sound weird. When you mentioned other grief books that you turned to,
[16:03]what were some of your go-to's over the most helpful for you?
[16:07]I think, you know, your magical thinking, Joan Diddy, which is, you know, the kind of the go-to.
[16:12]I, I got that after my mom died. I waited about six months to read it, but I thought it was beautiful.
[16:17]And you said it was like all one big quote. It's like the whole look was like one,
[16:22]I know the whole thing. I'm like, I should underline this whole thing, but I think I only
[16:24]underline one thing with the whole thing is just, you know, I thought it was really beautiful.
[16:28]And I think the one I underline it was, I don't want to butcher it, but it was like,
[16:31]there are no faint traces about dead, no pencil marks. And I just felt like, okay, that makes
[16:36]a whole lot of sense to me. I loved that. And more recently, I read Rob Delaney's book,
[16:44]a heart that works, which is very tough. But I love it because I just, I love that he was so angry,
[16:49]like rightly so, but also so funny. So I thought that because really beautiful. And I read
[16:55]C.S. Lewis's book. So, you know, there was just a lot out there that helped, but the Zen quotes,
[17:00]I wasn't there for that at that moment. Can you take me back to your professional life and
[17:07]your writing life, like from the beginning and how you ended up in book form, but also all
[17:11]your journalism and all that? Sure. So I always wanted to write, since like probably elementary school,
[17:16]I think I wrote like a stapled pages together and wrote a book about a horse or something,
[17:19]like a long time ago. So that was always the thing. And I, so my first paid writing job was,
[17:25]I went to UCLA, so I wrote for the Daily Broon as an entertainment reporter, a friend of mine was like,
[17:30]we need someone. And I was like, I guess like, I go to a, you know, roundtable with Sean Connery,
[17:36]like I'm 19 years old, it was a little bit intimidating. But so I did that. And it took me a lot of
[17:41]years. Like I focused on like movie TV entertainment writing for a long time, but I also waited many
[17:46]tables and had a lot of rent jobs like blogging for a lamp store, you name it. And it took me a
[17:52]while to get to the point where I could say, okay, I am a full-time writer. So journalism was always there,
[17:57]always had other jobs. And then around 2010, I was laid off from a film job. And I was like,
[18:02]okay, I'm going to go full force here. And so I started blogging about being laid off. And that ended
[18:07]up being my first book, Brokenomics. And then I just got more and more into reporting, which I love.
[18:12]and so now what I do is I'm ghostwriter for celebrities. So that is kind of the base. And then
[18:19]that allows me to pitch, you know, all right, for New York Times in Texas, monthly and
[18:24]Teen Vogue and all these places that I just adore writing for because it gives me a lot of freedom
[18:29]to just say, okay, this is interesting to me. Let me pitch it. Let me see if I can write about
[18:33]like women who race lawnmowers or some guy in the desert, like secretly growing yuckas. So it's
[18:39]pretty cool. And I feel very lucky to be here now that I can, you know, write about kind of whatever
[18:44]peaks my interest as long as an editor says yes. That's important. Can you share areas like confidential
[18:50]with the celebrities you write for? Yeah, I can share some of them. So Michelle Staus from
[18:56]Selling Sunset and Shep Rose, it's a lot of reality. Shep Rose, let's see Vanessa LeShay,
[19:02]who's a sweetie. I mean, they're all actually really sweet. I'm not just saying that.
[19:06]Who else can I say? I think that's all I can say. I read her book. Did you really? Because she was
[19:10]gonna come on the podcast and then like scheduling blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know what happened,
[19:13]but I had already read it. Yeah, she was sweetie. And then there's two that I'm working on now,
[19:17]but I can't say so. But yeah, so it's, it's, I like it. I think it's an interesting process and it's
[19:22]fun for me to have somebody come in and be like, I have, they're usually very intimidated by the
[19:26]book process. So I kind of hold their hands through the whole thing. So it's interesting.
[19:32]So meanwhile, all this loss and all this writing and everything and you have your son
[19:37]Cole, who you write about. So it's not like you're just in your own single-minded path. You've got
[19:43]your mothering through the whole thing. Tell me a little bit about, you know, we have this podcast
[19:48]in social media, think called moms. I don't have time to grieve because it feels like it can be very
[19:52]hard to find a space to have the emotions. How, you know, not like you have to have one theory of
[20:00]of parenting through loss, but how did it end up and what did you, did you have a view
[20:04]on what you were trying to do, sharing versus not sharing through, you know?
[20:08]Yeah.
[20:09]Well, first of all, I love moms don't have time to agree with them.
[20:10]That's perfect.
[20:11]Perfectly said, because we don't often.
[20:14]I think, you know, it was, you know, I write about this in the book and during my mom's
[20:18]hospice, I was very lucky because my husband had my son and I could take, you know,
[20:23]10 days off work.
[20:24]But I was really scared that I was not going to be able to be a mom to him.
[20:27]Like I just felt like my, I'm so depleted and this was in the throes of it, right?
[20:32]So in the throes of it, I was so depleted.
[20:34]I was scared that I wouldn't even want to hold him.
[20:37]Like he was 13 months old.
[20:38]So it was, it was kind of frightening.
[20:39]Luckily when they came, I was all about him and, you know, that he helped, you know, he helped
[20:44]me.
[20:45]Like he gave me something to love and focus on and, you know, gave back a lot of love.
[20:49]And then it's been interesting because now he's five and a half.
[20:53]And so I've watched him sort of grapple with death because my mom's gone, my sister's
[20:58]gone.
[20:59]And I try to be honest with him, you know, I've talked to people about what to say, what
[21:03]not to say.
[21:04]Like you're supposed to say, you know, it's supposed to say, like they're flying in
[21:06]the clouds.
[21:07]Like you're supposed to say, you know, they died and you can still say they're with
[21:11]you all the time or whatever you want.
[21:13]But it's been really interesting sort of going through it with him and because he asked
[21:17]me questions like, well, what happened?
[21:18]He called her CC like, what happened to CC where is she and, you know, so I'll try to
[21:23]say, well, she died, but she's always with us and then he'll start saying, well, what's
[21:27]a soul?
[21:28]And I'm like, that is beyond my, I don't know how to explain this kid.
[21:31]But so it's been, you know, we talk about it as much as he'll bring it up, you know, so I try
[21:35]to be honest with him.
[21:36]But in it is sweet, I found like a way to keep my mom and sister alive because that's
[21:41]one thing I learned in grief is like your relationship doesn't end with the person, right?
[21:45]Not in like a woo kind of way, but like you can keep them in your life.
[21:49]You can talk to them.
[21:50]You can have rituals, so one way I keep him in my life is I tell Col stories all the
[21:55]time.
[21:56]I'm like, well, you know, CC loved this or Jackie did this and that's a way for him to
[22:01]know them a little bit.
[22:02]Like he, when I told him as my mom and grandmother, like would always say, don't leave
[22:07]the house top chip with Chip nail polish, right?
[22:09]That was like their thing, their little Texas thing.
[22:11]And so now when he sees me have Chip nail polish, which is a lot, I can't seem to keep
[22:15]it on.
[22:16]He'll say like, oh, CC would, you know, CC wouldn't like that.
[22:19]And I'm like, that's so sweet.
[22:20]He kind of like knows a bit of her personality.
[22:23]So so one thing I learned is like telling a lot of stories is helpful for both you and
[22:28]the kid, right?
[22:29]Because you can feel connected and then they can understand them a little bit.
[22:32]So that's been helpful for us.
[22:35]We have like little signs for people in our lives that we've lost for the kids.
[22:40]And I mean, I really, I mean, it sounds boo-boo, but I do kind of believe in all of that.
[22:44]And so my husband's mother died from COVID, even though she was really healthy and
[22:49]and today is actually one of my kids' birthdays and it was raining.
[22:53]And then the sun started coming out.
[22:55]And I was like, oh, you know, her sign is rainbows.
[22:58]And I was like, oh, you know, the weather is like this because, you know, treats
[23:02]us trying to come out and I was happy birthday.
[23:05]And yeah, anyway, my husband like started crying when I said that.
[23:08]I was like, oh, sweet and mean it like, you know, I know that's sweet.
[23:13]I believe in that too, for sure.
[23:15]Like if I see a butterfly, I'm like, it's, you know, like,
[23:18]it's just nice to have those little moments, you know, for whatever that is for you.
[23:22]I think it's sweet.
[23:23]Yeah.
[23:24]I don't know.
[23:25]Keep started.
[23:26]No, that's okay.
[23:27]I mean, keeps people you love like top of mind for the kids too.
[23:30]Yeah.
[23:31]In a way, that's very tangible.
[23:32]Yes.
[23:33]So aside from your two ghost writing projects that are coming up, what else are you up
[23:37]to?
[23:38]What are you excited about?
[23:39]And yeah.
[23:40]And how do you feel now that this is sort of in the world?
[23:43]I feel, you know, it's funny, the day it came out was a strange feeling.
[23:47]And I talked to Wendy, Erin's my friend about this because she had a memoir come out in the fall.
[23:51]It's like you're prepared for it, but then it goes in the world.
[23:53]And it's like, whoa, my family's like, our whole life's out there.
[23:57]So it's been a great couple of months.
[23:59]It comes out in the UK actually next week, which is pretty exciting.
[24:02]And so it's been, it's been amazing having it out there getting messages from people that
[24:06]are just so touching, like, you know, just saying how the book has helped them, which
[24:11]is just very meaningful for me.
[24:13]So I'm continuing to write, you know, and pitch articles and working on something for
[24:16]text a month.
[24:17]I'm really excited about that has to do with grief.
[24:20]And then I'm thinking about book three.
[24:22]So I'm brainstorming what that would be.
[24:24]And it's kind of based off, I wrote a, I don't know if you know, mother tongue magazine.
[24:28]So I wrote something that's in their, their spring issue, but my great aunt, basically,
[24:33]I'm covered a family secret that my great aunt burned down her ex husband's house because
[24:37]he was abusive in the 40s and she did it three times.
[24:40]So she was like this little badass and then you would never know it because it was a family
[24:44]secret.
[24:45]And she just got married and had a kid kind of kept it hidden.
[24:47]So it's kind of loosely based on her story, but it would still be non-fiction.
[24:51]So that's what I'm tinkering around with.
[24:53]Awesome.
[24:54]Do you have advice for aspiring authors?
[24:57]Let's see.
[24:58]I think, you know, I think one that you hear a lot is, you know, keep at it, which is very
[25:01]true.
[25:02]But for me, one of the things that's been very helpful through this career, which
[25:05]can have so many ups and downs.
[25:07]And like I said, it took me a lot of waiting tables to get yours.
[25:10]I would say be very open minded and versatile about the kind of writing you'll do.
[25:15]So along the way, like I wrote comic books, which I never in a million years thought I would
[25:20]do.
[25:21]Like I said, I blog for a lamp store, which was not glamorous, but whatever I've worked in,
[25:26]you know, film and TV, I've done different kinds of journalism.
[25:31]So I would just be pretty, and now you can, I mean, there's brand of content.
[25:33]There's so much to be open to.
[25:35]So I would not be too limiting about, okay, I want to be a novelist, I'm only writing
[25:40]fiction short stories.
[25:41]Like if you want to be a writer, I would just try and be versatile.
[25:45]I think that would be my advice.
[25:46]Love it.
[25:47]Amazing.
[25:48]Great.
[25:49]Well, Dina, thank you.
[25:50]Thank you for sharing.
[25:51]Thank you.
[25:52]Thanks for, you know, I mean, I will not be able to watch any Academy Award shows from
[25:57]you.
[25:58]Thank you, and your mom.
[25:59]So I want to thank you.
[26:00]Thank you.
[26:01]Well, thank you for having me.
[26:02]I love the podcast.
[26:03]So it's, you know, it's been really fun.
[26:05]Okay.
[26:06]All right.
[26:07]Look forward to meeting you in Austin.
[26:08]Yes, I can't wait.
[26:09]Thank you.
[26:10]Love you.
[26:11]Bye.
[26:12]Bye.
[26:13]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:16]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zebioans, and at Moms Don't Have Time to
[26:20]Read Books.
[26:21]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet
[26:26]lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:28]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[26:32]Thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.