Geri Halliwell-Horner, ROSIE FROST & THE FALCON QUEEN
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year, and fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag, where we have lots of wonderful essays and
[0:30]lifestyle features.
[0:31]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:32]We have classes, it's a B-Classist.com, and I recently opened a book store in LA called
[0:39]Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings, but this here podcast is the
[0:51]basis of all of it and started in 2018, and no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite
[0:57]thing.
[0:58]Enjoy.
[1:03]I did a really, really, really fun live event on stage with Jerry Hollowell Horner, AKA
[1:11]Ginger Spice, and I did it at the Madison Theater in Rockville Center with Theodore's books.
[1:17]And it was so wonderful.
[1:20]I am obsessed with Jerry now, and anyway, here's her bio, but enjoy our conversation.
[1:26]Jerry Hollowell Horner is an accomplished singer, writer, producer, and actress who is widely
[1:30]recognized for her iconic place in British pop culture as an original member of the record-breaking
[1:35]girl group The Spice Girls.
[1:37]As Ginger Spice, Jerry played a formative role in the band as they became one of the biggest
[1:41]selling girl groups of all time.
[1:43]She is the successful author of the Eugenia Lavender book series in the UK, and continues
[1:48]to work with the Royal Commonwealth to promote prospects through literacy to Commonwealth
[1:52]citizens.
[1:53]She was awarded an honorary doctorate of letters at Sheffield Talam University, and is
[1:57]an outspoken supporter of animals and an ambassador of the London Zoo.
[2:00]You can visit Jerry Hollowell Horner online at RosieFrostBooks.com or follow her on Instagram
[2:06]at the real Jerry Hollowell and on Twitter at Jerry Hollowell and on Facebook slash Jerry
[2:12]Hollowell.
[2:13]Enjoy.
[2:14]Hi.
[2:18]Hello, everyone.
[2:22]And see you soon.
[2:24]Yes, I'm Sivi.
[2:25]Nice to meet you.
[2:26]This is Jerry.
[2:27]It's so nice to see you.
[2:32]It's very nice, and thank you so much for coming.
[2:36]I really appreciate it.
[2:37]It's really nice for names and faces together, you know, people that have supported and
[2:44]new fans.
[2:45]It's lovely all coming together tonight.
[2:48]And I think you're going to kick it off by reading a little bit.
[2:51]Did you know that?
[2:52]Apparently so.
[2:53]It's really nice.
[2:54]I kind of pick it up here.
[2:56]It's like your bedtime story.
[2:59]And sometimes I read, well, a lot of times I'm normally reading my son, who's six bedtime
[3:06]story.
[3:07]He's quite adamant I do it.
[3:08]And so it's a privilege to read you something.
[3:11]OK, so I'm going to give you a little to where are we?
[3:15]OK, so RosieFrost, she gets sent to this island and it's called Bloodstone Island.
[3:21]And it's like a Jurassic Park, but for endangered animals.
[3:25]The school that she arrives in was built 500 years ago by Queen Elizabeth I, in honor
[3:31]of her late mother, Ambeline, who was, let's say, shamed for being smart.
[3:38]And so she builds this school and she doesn't want to get married.
[3:41]No wonder.
[3:42]And she says, do you know what, the heirs, the heirs, the pupils, their ideas, really
[3:48]smart kids, they're going to be my heirs.
[3:51]So 500 years later, Rosie gets sent to this school and she arrives there and it's this
[3:59]massive building and it's a little bit creepy and she comes face-to-face with a deputy
[4:06]head and then this first call her a Mean Girl, Ottily.
[4:11]And she's one of those archetypes that you think, OK, she's gorgeous, smart clever.
[4:15]Anyway, she locks her in what's called the Falcon Queen Gallery and the Falcon Queen Gallery
[4:22]and Ambeline was known as the Falcon Queen.
[4:25]And Falcon Queen Gallery really celebrates amazing women and there is a Falcon King gallery
[4:30]but this one's Falcon Queens and it celebrates all women of history.
[4:35]So let's say, for example, her mother Queen Elizabeth and herself, but also like Charlotte
[4:39]Bronzhey, Frida Kahlo, Amelia Earhart, you know, the pilot, all sorts of women that
[4:46]have done me, just think things that's in this gallery.
[4:49]Anyway, so and she's just, and Ottily, she's kind of like a Kim Kardashian, beautiful, gorgeous
[4:55]smarts of whip.
[4:56]She says, oh yeah, she shows her it and then she locks her in and she has to spend the
[5:01]night there.
[5:02]It's her first night and her mother's just died and she's like, she can, what the hell is going
[5:06]on?
[5:07]Anyway.
[5:08]This is what happens, it's 3 a.m. and she wakes up.
[5:12]She's all cold and she's saying, what the hell is going on?
[5:15]She hears a noise.
[5:16]Imagine this gallery, it's like, oh, wooden floorboards, big paintings.
[5:21]Anyway, this is what happens, yes.
[5:27]The same sound echoed again.
[5:29]The time, this time accompanied by repeated tap, tap, tapping noise, footsteps.
[5:37]Who's there?
[5:39]Everything is fine, everything is fine.
[5:42]Hello?
[5:44]Rosie called, her throat was tight and her voice came out raspy.
[5:49]Hello?
[5:50]She said again, a cold rush of wind bristled, bristled, rosy's hair, her skin prickled,
[5:57]as if someone had just brushed past her, who's there?
[6:02]She turned round them back again, which was when the woman walked straight out of the
[6:06]wall into the center of the room.
[6:10]Rosie covered her mouth to hold back a gasp.
[6:13]Her heart was racing at the speed of a galloping horse.
[6:16]It wasn't possible.
[6:18]This is not real.
[6:20]This is not real.
[6:21]I'm just dreaming.
[6:23]The woman remained focused on what she was doing.
[6:26]She's now in the middle of the room in front of the large fireplace and started muttering
[6:30]to herself.
[6:32]There was another flash of lightning and Rosie glimpsed her deep dark eyes, which had the
[6:37]same power as a storm outside.
[6:41]The woman then hung her head low and smoky tendrils danced around her, like a mist on
[6:46]the ocean, where the light from the windows hit the woman's body.
[6:50]She looked almost see through.
[6:53]Rosie dug her nails into her palms, trying to wake herself up, but because she could
[6:57]feel the sharp pinch in her skin telling her she wasn't dreaming.
[7:02]She shook her head, but deep down, she knew the truth.
[7:06]She was looking a ghost, don't, don't, don't.
[7:12]That's just kind of the beginning to get you there.
[7:20]Jerry, this book was so good.
[7:22]You are so smart.
[7:24]And the way that this book is written, you will all see if you haven't read it already.
[7:28]It's so well written and you know that Jerry is such a history buff and you read it
[7:32]because there are all these little clues and things that are so important to world history,
[7:37]but they're so palatable when they come out in the book and you just don't even realize
[7:41]that you're learning.
[7:42]How did you decide to do the book this way?
[7:45]Or was it on purpose?
[7:46]Here's a thing.
[7:47]I've always loved books and I'm curious, but I'm lazy.
[7:51]I like to know about anything or anyone.
[7:53]I think everyone's got a story and I always like your tutors.
[7:56]It's a really dramatic time and I wrote Rosie first, generally the character of Rosie
[8:03]and her friends around her first and I thought, yeah, it's just going to be at the
[8:07]school.
[8:08]There's going to be conservation.
[8:09]It's important and I thought, well, could I give the school some DNA sort of been
[8:14]and the first person I thought of was Queen Elizabeth I and then I thought, what that
[8:22]I'm brilliant and I said it to a guy in the publishing world and he said, oh, no,
[8:30]don't pick her.
[8:31]She's a contentious and I was like, oh, really?
[8:35]Let's look at her and then I thought, actually, this is a story written about a woman
[8:41]that five hundred years ago, she was executed for what was said to me, was it true?
[8:47]Then I started to feel sorry for her.
[8:49]And you imagine if you were a mother and you've got to leave your little girl behind
[8:54]because somebody said some bad things about you and maybe she was just smart and people
[9:00]were threatened by her.
[9:02]So I thought, let's lean into her and the more I learned about her, I thought, actually
[9:06]she's pretty cool and amazing and she believed in reform and creativity.
[9:12]So I've sort of that inspired me to put it in, but generally.
[9:16]And I know you've been working, you worked on this book for quite a lot of time.
[9:20]Yeah.
[9:21]I don't know if you ever saw the musical six.
[9:23]I have.
[9:24]Yeah.
[9:25]So I was like, oh, I know it in Berlin.
[9:26]Like, now I know that she's in the popular discourse, so I felt like this is now the continuation.
[9:31]Yeah, because I was six is brilliant and it's a light way entry point of those six
[9:37]wives that are all fantastic.
[9:39]The only thing I thought was, do you know what, I'm a little smart, you know, she's
[9:44]smart, but she was shamed for it.
[9:47]So yeah.
[9:48]Okay.
[9:49]So where did the best part of this, the crux of the book, where did it come from, when did
[9:54]you decide you wanted to write this, why for this age, it's where did I come from?
[9:58]Okay.
[9:59]So let me say this, say it.
[10:00]I feel like the best stories are timeless and ageless.
[10:05]It doesn't matter whether you're 10,
[10:07]you're 30 or 78.
[10:10]If you've got a good story, a good character,
[10:12]it speaks to anyone as the first things first.
[10:15]And how did it start?
[10:17]So, okay, so I had written younger children's book before
[10:21]and it did well.
[10:22]And I remember thinking, oh, I'd really,
[10:25]I always put my finger to the wind and you think,
[10:27]oh, how does the world feel?
[10:28]Because I think words are like,
[10:31]sometimes when you write something,
[10:33]it's like the words that other people can't find.
[10:36]It's just for them.
[10:37]And I thought, I think the world needs a new hero.
[10:41]You know, someone ordinary.
[10:43]You know, maybe we feel vulnerable
[10:46]and we're not airbrushed.
[10:49]And can we find her in a story?
[10:52]And so I'd already written this children's book before.
[10:56]And I thought, and I had this agent,
[10:59]and his name was Christopher Little
[11:01]and he discovered Harry Potter.
[11:03]And I asked him and I said,
[11:05]oh, should I just age her up?
[11:06]And he went, no, start again.
[11:08]I was like, oh, okay.
[11:10]So, and he's not alive anymore,
[11:12]but he encouraged me for many years.
[11:14]And so I started writing Rosie, right?
[11:17]And I started building her and the characters around her.
[11:22]And but for me, it's always character first
[11:24]because if you don't care about character,
[11:27]you know, whether they climb a mountain
[11:29]or whether, I don't know, whatever they do,
[11:31]big or small story, you've got to care about the character.
[11:34]I was not going to page turn.
[11:35]You're not going to care.
[11:36]Why are you going to waste your time reading?
[11:39]So I was go character first.
[11:41]And let's make her true to you, whoever you are.
[11:44]Maybe she'll match you on the inside.
[11:46]Maybe you're outside is different,
[11:47]but you know, let's feel her heartbeat.
[11:50]That's what I try and do.
[11:52]I love how Rosie also flips the script
[11:55]on the traditional fairy tale of the prince charming
[11:59]coming in rescuing, the princess, which she talks about
[12:01]in the book, but also you have a scene very early on
[12:04]where during the falcon games,
[12:06]and I'm not giving too much away,
[12:07]there are these amazing falcon games that are the heartbeat
[12:10]of the story where she is in a position
[12:13]to rescue a boy as opposed to the boy rescuing her.
[12:18]Yeah, I mean, I thought, let's just be real.
[12:21]I think if you can see it, you can be it.
[12:25]And there is this adorable boy in the called Charlie.
[12:28]I love him, right?
[12:30]And all these characters feel real to me anyway.
[12:32]They are real, they see Charlie's and Rosie's
[12:36]and all sorts of these characters in our everyday life.
[12:40]And I thought, you know what, boys and girls,
[12:43]sometimes boys cry.
[12:46]It doesn't mean, you know, they can still be strong,
[12:48]but they sometimes boys cry.
[12:50]And I thought, I think it's important
[12:51]if you can see it, you can be it.
[12:53]It's important for Chuck, boys to see that you cry,
[12:56]and it's okay, still can be the tough guy,
[12:58]but also a gut and girls get angry.
[13:01]And we see Chuck, we see Rosie.
[13:04]She does save the boy in a very early on,
[13:08]and they sort of make that connection, you know,
[13:10]but it's always changing.
[13:12]It's always, I think, you know,
[13:13]sometimes we're good, sometimes we're bad,
[13:15]sometimes we're the hero, sometimes we're not.
[13:18]Yes, you'll see it in one of the early scenes, it's quite.
[13:21]It's quite, I would say, how would you say
[13:23]those scenes are quite?
[13:24]Which faculty games, they're all testimony
[13:27]to the Tudor times, even though it's set in modern day,
[13:30]they're quite aggressive, aren't they?
[13:33]It's like a great new Harry Potter.
[13:36]Really, if they're games, it's amazing, it's just fantastic.
[13:39]Another element that this book has, though,
[13:41]because it's quite different and unique,
[13:43]I haven't read this before, is this huge focus
[13:46]on conservation and animals,
[13:47]and what it means to be a good citizen
[13:51]with all the other creatures around.
[13:54]Talk about that a little bit.
[13:55]You know, as I said, I sort of care about the world,
[13:58]but I sort of, but I, you know, I don't understand things,
[14:02]I don't know, you know, how to save it, how can we save it?
[14:06]And sometimes in life we might not know the answers,
[14:09]but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the problem,
[14:12]but can we sort of lightly sort of put it
[14:15]in the landscape of things?
[14:17]And I strive to make a story that was really prevalent
[14:23]to our life now.
[14:26]And so, you know, Bloodstone Island is this island
[14:31]that's in the Atlantic Ocean,
[14:32]and it's got its own ecosystem,
[14:34]but it's really reflective of what's going on now.
[14:37]So it's got all these endangered animals.
[14:39]That's real, there's wild cats,
[14:42]Komodo dragons, different kinds of all sorts
[14:45]of creatures live there,
[14:46]and the plants, the whole of it,
[14:48]and their soil is all very reflective of now.
[14:53]And I don't know what the answers are,
[14:54]and I don't know if any of you've got
[14:56]had a chance to read it or got to the end of the book
[14:58]because I don't want to give it away,
[15:00]but it sort of lights up that question
[15:03]about what are we doing?
[15:05]But I wanted to sort of, if you can't be bothered
[15:08]that that day you just want to fast pace,
[15:11]you know, adventure, that's it off you go,
[15:13]but there's little questions in there if you want to.
[15:16]And I care about the world, I love animals.
[15:19]You know, I think animals are so honest.
[15:22]So I feel like, you know, can we look at the world
[15:26]belongs to all of us, which is visitors, aren't we?
[15:30]So you have another scene in which I don't think
[15:34]this is giving it away, but we're,
[15:37]I'll just say a creature could be perceived
[15:41]very mean.
[15:42]And yet all of a sudden she flips the script on that as well
[15:45]and gets the creature to calm down.
[15:48]And I feel like, oh, the wild cat, yeah, the wild cat.
[15:51]And there's a theme also sort of pervading the book
[15:54]of keeping your enemies closer
[15:57]and isn't enemy really an enemy?
[15:59]How can you kill them with kindness, essentially?
[16:02]Is that, yeah, that's a sort of perspective of it.
[16:05]I mean, Rosey's experience and grief.
[16:08]And I don't know if any of you have ever lost anyone.
[16:12]It's, and it's sort of embedded in them.
[16:14]Again, it's embedded in the story,
[16:16]but it's not the forefront.
[16:18]It's not the main, if you don't want to see it,
[16:20]you don't have to feel it if you don't want, but it's there.
[16:23]And she's really uncomfortable and she's in pain.
[16:26]And, you know, and this is a modern day hero.
[16:28]So we've had plenty of orphans, you know, in other stories,
[16:32]but there's a little bit more on the surface
[16:37]about what grief is.
[16:39]And she's angry, and she's hurt,
[16:41]and she's defensive about it.
[16:43]And then suddenly she meets an animal
[16:46]that's actually, I thought of as I wrote it,
[16:49]it sort of meant to be slightly reflective of her
[16:52]and then get this connection.
[16:54]And the first of all, you're gonna think there's animal,
[16:55]is it, is it, is it gonna bite me, is it?
[17:00]And there's sort of commonality going on.
[17:04]That's the point of the wild cat
[17:06]that you sort of don't know where you stand.
[17:08]But as you say, once in life, our differences, you know,
[17:11]on the outside.
[17:12]So we more alike than different, basically.
[17:14]I do think the way you've heard about grief was beautiful.
[17:17]I mean, it's really beautiful and heartfelt.
[17:20]And I feel like all of us kind of feel like kids,
[17:23]when we lose somebody, we love it.
[17:25]There's something just so basic,
[17:28]where you just want to be with that person,
[17:30]you miss that person's hugs,
[17:31]you just want to be with them.
[17:33]Where did that come from for you?
[17:34]How did you tap into that?
[17:36]I was told right about what you know.
[17:38]And so sometimes you just use it as an ingredient.
[17:42]You know, like some lines of the characters, you know,
[17:44]if you've got Bina, like I know someone that's like,
[17:47]she's has a Muslim background and she likes wrestling.
[17:51]I thought that's so brilliant.
[17:52]She's gorgeous and I sort of used a bit of her
[17:54]with someone else.
[17:55]But regarding the pain of grief, okay.
[17:58]So I thought, well, I experienced that.
[18:02]And that, and it wasn't until after I'd written it.
[18:04]You know, the opening chapter,
[18:07]when she finds out that, you know, her mother is dead.
[18:10]You know, so that, I wrote that and I was looking at it.
[18:13]And I wrote that last that, that chapter.
[18:16]I got asked to sort of go back story a bit more.
[18:19]And so she's that grief that she feels,
[18:24]I felt that, I felt so awkward.
[18:27]And because, and I think it's the same in America,
[18:30]that's like, Western thing is that like, you know what?
[18:32]We, you know, we feel a bit awkward
[18:34]about showing our feelings.
[18:35]I think we've got better,
[18:36]but I thought, can we just sort of lay out the page,
[18:39]you know, and honestly, simply.
[18:42]So I sort of did it in the letter writing.
[18:47]So there's a little bit of borrowed experience of myself
[18:51]in there.
[18:52]That's okay, you know, you know what?
[18:54]I believe in lines that you can turn all your,
[18:58]like poop or pain to fertiliser.
[19:01]It's all useful, it's all copy, you know,
[19:04]whether you've been bullied or something's been,
[19:07]you know, hasn't gone the way it's all useful.
[19:10]You know, I actually thought the other day,
[19:12]I was really grateful for some of the things
[19:15]that I found challenging because I've heard people say this
[19:20]before, but I'm grateful for the challenges I've faced
[19:26]because I've been able to sort of use it in a positive way.
[19:30]And I never understood that before.
[19:33]When somebody else said it,
[19:35]but I wouldn't be now to write what I've written
[19:38]if it wasn't for that pain, that makes sense.
[19:40]There's been a lot of articles lately
[19:42]on this new post-traumatic growth.
[19:45]And how?
[19:46]I never heard that before.
[19:47]So it's after you get through the trauma later,
[19:51]you have this new sensitivity, new appreciation for life,
[19:55]and it has like four to five bullet points
[19:57]of really significant life altering.
[20:00]on-term effects that are very, very positive.
[20:02]I'll take that.
[20:03]That sounds useful.
[20:05]Yeah, I like it.
[20:06]Yeah.
[20:07]Can you go back to how you wrote this?
[20:10]And this is involved.
[20:11]It's over a line.
[20:12]Oh my gosh.
[20:13]There are so many bits and pieces.
[20:15]I mean, it's really an accomplishment.
[20:17]So tell me about the actual writing of this.
[20:20]OK, so I remember, I think I was, because what I like
[20:23]about writing is that, and I've always loved the power of words,
[20:26]because I used to study, I studied English literature before
[20:29]when it's music, theatre in English literature.
[20:33]And I've always loved books, the great escape,
[20:36]because it doesn't matter how much money you've got.
[20:38]I didn't have a lot of money when I was younger,
[20:40]and I was thinking, I could escape.
[20:42]And you could find a character that you love.
[20:45]And you could experience things.
[20:47]You could get transported.
[20:48]This is the, I think, any bookie loves that.
[20:52]And so my process, obviously, I always loved writing songs.
[20:56]And on the all-coated thing in the music, part of the music,
[21:01]I loved that.
[21:02]And then I'd written these children's books.
[21:03]And that was OK.
[21:05]But this was a entirely different medium to do it.
[21:10]And I tell you what.
[21:12]So first of all, I was just writing, like, as I went.
[21:15]There was no plan, so to speak.
[21:17]And this was, but I think it was either 2014 or 2015.
[21:20]And I liked it because I took my laptop.
[21:23]And I'd go, if I wanted to go and be a nice wife,
[21:26]I'd go and go with my husband, right?
[21:28]I still wanted to be creative.
[21:30]And off my children went to school.
[21:32]I still want to be creative.
[21:34]But I want to be there for people I love.
[21:36]So I started writing and just to sneak off and get lost in it.
[21:41]And I could feel it and visualize it all in my mind.
[21:44]And these characters were evolving.
[21:47]But then I had a few things that I learned as I went.
[21:51]And one of the first things that was dawn French
[21:52]was the comedian, and she's a writer.
[21:54]And she said, leave your phone outside the room.
[21:57]That is an absolute creative killer.
[21:59]Because otherwise, you can be on your laptop.
[22:02]And then suddenly you look at your phone and you get drawn in.
[22:05]And that's it.
[22:06]It pulls you out at the moment.
[22:08]So that was one of the first things I did.
[22:11]And then the other thing was, you have to make a commitment
[22:15]like to that.
[22:16]So let's say from 9 to 12, I'm going to write.
[22:19]Even if I don't feel like it.
[22:21]And I just write me, it doesn't matter what it is.
[22:24]Right.
[22:25]And that breaks as well.
[22:27]And then I read this book by Stephen King.
[22:31]And he doesn't vote on writing.
[22:34]And he said things like, pull the shutters down.
[22:39]So you've got no outside stimulation.
[22:41]And that towards the end of it, I started doing that.
[22:44]But in the morning, I'm fresh.
[22:45]But then I wrote some of the other like darker scenes
[22:48]like in the graveyard.
[22:49]I actually wrote that.
[22:50]And sometimes I think about a scene before I even got there.
[22:55]You get in our heart moment of how to crack the case.
[22:59]And I'm always borrowing things.
[23:00]You know how she opens, she unlocks that door.
[23:04]Like someone told me, I thought, that's really good.
[23:07]And I was like, how did you know about that?
[23:08]I know.
[23:09]That's questionable.
[23:10]How did I know about that?
[23:12]So there's different.
[23:13]And then the other thing was that I'd share early drafts
[23:17]with really such generous writers.
[23:21]Like they're always encouraging.
[23:22]That's a really nice thing about writers and publishers.
[23:25]They're so, most of them, I'd say, so lovely and encouraging.
[23:30]And there was a writer called William Boyd.
[23:33]And he'd written any human heart.
[23:36]It's amazing.
[23:38]It's a chunky read, but it's like he's
[23:41]like the Beethoven of, he's so accomplished.
[23:44]He's award-winning, brilliant man.
[23:47]And I met him, this is his name, Joffee,
[23:48]but I met him at Buckingham Palace.
[23:51]And I worked for the Royal Commonwealth.
[23:56]And they do this literacy campaign,
[23:58]getting all kids around the world to write stories.
[24:01]And he's a judge.
[24:01]But he was just standing.
[24:02]I didn't realize he was William Boyd.
[24:04]And I said, oh, hello, you write it.
[24:06]And he went, yeah.
[24:07]And he published and he went, yeah,
[24:09]penguin.
[24:10]I was like, oh, that's amazing.
[24:11]And then my name's William.
[24:13]And then I said, oh, I've written this manuscript.
[24:18]I was, you know, a few drafts in.
[24:19]I said, oh, would you mind reading it?
[24:21]And it was like giving Humpty Dumpty to Beethoven.
[24:24]And this man was amazing.
[24:26]And I realized who I'd give him my book to afterwards.
[24:29]But he was really generous with me.
[24:30]He said, look, I said, why am I getting,
[24:32]you know, it's not quite working.
[24:34]And he said, you need to rewrite it in the third person
[24:40]and in the past tense.
[24:42]And because I've written everything in the eye
[24:45]and the present tense.
[24:45]Because you've backed yourself into a corner.
[24:48]And so that was a massive lesson.
[24:50]And it took me like another year to just redo it again.
[24:54]So that's why I was learning.
[24:56]You know, I was making mistakes.
[24:57]And after he said, you could instead write it,
[25:02]you structure it before you start.
[25:05]There's two ways to do it.
[25:06]And so I think it gives you more per frame work, which,
[25:10]you know, I've done this for the second number two.
[25:12]I've done that.
[25:14]What can you say about number two?
[25:16]It's darker.
[25:17]It's darker.
[25:17]Yeah.
[25:18]I think because, you know, I think never underestimate
[25:21]your reader, you know, the grow and what more.
[25:26]So I've sort of done that.
[25:27]It's just like we won't be able to sleep at Nick
[25:29]in a dark road.
[25:30]Hopefully, because you wonder what's going to do,
[25:33]like what's, you know, what's behind it.
[25:36]Yeah.
[25:37]I always try and give you that, like, little sort of questions
[25:41]to ask yourself, hopefully for that reason.
[25:44]And how long do we have to wait until there comes out?
[25:47]We'll see.
[25:47]I'm meant to be handling it by the end of November
[25:50]and I'm like, oh my God.
[25:52]I'm trying.
[25:53]Yeah, I've just got a bit an edit back.
[25:55]So yeah, I'll try.
[25:57]I'll do it on the plane.
[25:59]Do you ever feel like, because I know many authors
[26:02]do feel this way, having interviewed a lot of authors
[26:04]that sort of imposter syndrome.
[26:06]Like there are all these authors out there who are, you know,
[26:10]fantasy or who have written fabulous tones
[26:13]and all of these things.
[26:14]Like, can I really do it?
[26:15]Like, do you ever feel that way?
[26:16]I think that's a human condition, isn't it?
[26:18]Depends what day you ask about that.
[26:20]I put these little nuggets of quotes in there sometimes.
[26:23]And there is this drama teacher, Mr. Marcelus.
[26:27]And he's just really like theatrical and Shakespearean.
[26:32]And he says, our doubts, our our traders.
[26:36]And it's true.
[26:37]We can listen to this like voice game.
[26:39]And then a little bit of a, you know, and we all have that.
[26:42]You know, we can all think about always this good enough.
[26:45]And I think that's, you know, we get these four rules,
[26:48]the faculty queen rules in this book
[26:50]that she, that queen, ambeline,
[26:54]she gave this rule book to Elizabeth I,
[26:58]and then ambeline the ghost gives it to Rosie.
[27:01]And that first rule is have courage.
[27:04]Take the, take it as chance you fear the most.
[27:06]If I'm honest, I'm always thinking, oh, God,
[27:09]you know, I'm a little bit scared here, you know,
[27:13]but something, you know, I apply the other rules.
[27:15]And you know, I did, we stand, you know,
[27:17]get a little bit of support and then be of service.
[27:22]And it sort of pushes me on.
[27:23]Then it's not about me.
[27:25]Does that make sense?
[27:26]Yes.
[27:27]I also think if it's that easy,
[27:30]if it was so easy that everybody would be attracted
[27:32]to doing it as much.
[27:33]It's part of it is figuring out how to give yourself
[27:37]the confidence to keep going and then doing things
[27:40]like rewriting from a different point of view
[27:41]or a different tense and not feeling bad about it.
[27:44]Yeah, I think it's sort of having the humility to go,
[27:49]you know, it's okay to, I mean,
[27:51]nobody likes the word fail.
[27:53]It just feels very alky but to, you know,
[27:56]to learn and to keep learning, I think.
[27:59]You know, because I know I'm not perfect.
[28:01]You know, I'm not, you know, nothing is perfect,
[28:05]but the essence of, I think if something is honest,
[28:10]you know, if you stand in truth, your words have power
[28:13]in anything you do, it's not going to be perfect.
[28:16]But if there's something true about that,
[28:18]then, then, you know, then that's good.
[28:22]That's true.
[28:23]Will you tell me how you came up
[28:24]with the four principles, my goodness.
[28:28]How we've all got rules in life and way and who likes rules.
[28:32]But those rules, I just think they're really simple.
[28:34]Actually, if you break them down,
[28:36]I mean, you say, well, have courage,
[28:39]you know, as you understand, never give up
[28:42]and then make up your own rules.
[28:44]I mean, you can unpick them up and sort of broaden them.
[28:47]But I think they all support each other.
[28:50]Do you know what the funny thing is?
[28:51]Like sometimes I'm like, oh, what should I do?
[28:54]And I think just lean on those rules.
[28:56]You know, lean on those rules.
[28:58]And they work.
[28:59]They actually work.
[29:01]You know, when I'm rule number three, if I'm,
[29:03]I could sit here and think, oh my God.
[29:06]You know, what does everybody think of me?
[29:08]You know, is this good enough?
[29:10]I just, this sounds like I drop people.
[29:12]I'm going to share this with you, right?
[29:14]So I've just come back from doing Jimmy Fallon.
[29:17]I'm, and I was thinking, oh, he's, you know,
[29:20]it's the Jimmy Fallon show and everyone.
[29:22]You know, it's a privilege to be invited to be on there.
[29:24]And he was absolutely lovely.
[29:26]But when I say to myself, just show up and be of service,
[29:30]you know, just step up, that rule number three,
[29:34]you know, just serve your kingdom.
[29:36]So let's say whatever your kingdom is.
[29:39]You know, be of service to, to Jimmy, to you.
[29:43]Like bring that in.
[29:44]Then suddenly it's not about me.
[29:47]It really takes that pressure off.
[29:49]Does that make, and then you're free to be yourself?
[29:52]Does that make sense?
[29:53]And that's only through experience,
[29:55]because my ego wants to tell me otherwise.
[29:59]It's our ego.
[30:00]that sort of criticize us and go,
[30:01]minute and so can I let go of that?
[30:04]It's not about me today.
[30:05]Was that how you felt in the music world too?
[30:08]Or how did those two...
[30:09]I've not learned it.
[30:10]Yeah, definitely.
[30:11]You know, when I'm going to go on stage or something
[30:13]like anything, oh my goodness.
[30:16]I think, but that's human condition.
[30:17]That doesn't mean that I don't feel afraid,
[30:19]as I said before, or for nervous.
[30:21]I think it's natural.
[30:23]It's just to own those feelings and go, okay, it's okay.
[30:28]I listened to your interview at the view this morning.
[30:32]That's interesting.
[30:32]Which is very interesting.
[30:33]And it's so amazing, lady.
[30:35]You were so charming.
[30:36]I have to say, if you have not watched that,
[30:38]go on YouTube and watch it later.
[30:39]It was really, really well.
[30:41]I mean, what would be your book?
[30:42]She's amazing.
[30:43]I mean, she is such an inspiring lady.
[30:48]And joy, oh my goodness.
[30:51]She's 80, right.
[30:53]And I went on there 20 years ago,
[30:55]and you know, so we all want to look to other women.
[30:57]Go and how are you doing that?
[30:59]And you know, whoopies just got this amazing energy.
[31:02]That's, you know, she's strong,
[31:04]but she's, you know, sweet at the same time.
[31:07]I just felt how lovely to meet these women.
[31:10]Amazing.
[31:11]But you were talking about advice that you wish you had
[31:14]told yourself it's 30 and how you have to get through things.
[31:18]And I was wondering what advice you have for, I don't know,
[31:21]all the ages that mean that's a lot.
[31:24]But, you know, how do you get through
[31:26]some of the transitional times in life?
[31:28]And I think what I'm not, and I'm still learning,
[31:31]I do not have the answers to, I'm still learning, right?
[31:35]It's just my experience.
[31:36]I saw like in share.
[31:37]But I think my experience as challenges are always happening.
[31:41]You know, it's like the weather.
[31:42]Like what was it like last week?
[31:44]I was here in New York.
[31:46]You know, it was absolutely,
[31:48]that was torrential, heavy rain and suddenly it's sunshine.
[31:50]The real constant thing is change, right?
[31:54]So what am I going to do about it?
[31:56]And like circumstances, and sometimes it's good weather,
[31:59]sometimes it's bad weather or somewhere in the between.
[32:02]It's very much, how am I going to show up with that weather?
[32:07]You know, as you said, then done, can I give myself that support,
[32:16]you know, whatever the weather, you know,
[32:19]whatever the circumstance?
[32:21]And it always does change.
[32:23]And that's one thing I do know, you know,
[32:25]but I think life just gives you different, you know, challenges
[32:29]as you go on.
[32:31]But I think maybe life, as you get older,
[32:36]you have an experience, you get a bit more perspective.
[32:39]Sometimes, you know, you can go into reaction,
[32:42]but sometimes it just gives me a little bit like,
[32:44]okay, how important is this a little bit more?
[32:48]How would you think?
[32:50]I agree, I think that's great.
[32:51]Yeah, I say that to my kids sometimes.
[32:54]They're fighting about something and I'm like,
[32:55]really, in like a year, are you going to look back on the site?
[32:58]Like, how important was this?
[32:59]Whether you go to the sit on this chair in the elevator or not.
[33:02]You know, nobody, you're never going to remember this.
[33:05]So yeah, I think we could all pull each other
[33:08]over the wall at different times, I just speak.
[33:10]You know, tomorrow I'm like,
[33:12]fretting about something, you think?
[33:16]And then someone, you know, a friend will remind me.
[33:19]That's rule number two, United we stand divided, we fall.
[33:22]We just go, okay, right, thanks for that reminding.
[33:25]Have your kids and everybody in your family have they read the book?
[33:28]Well, they think, Monty, that, you know,
[33:30]we all want like the love and support from our family.
[33:35]And they can be our best and worst critics, I think.
[33:38]So I used to go and go off to this writing shed.
[33:42]And my husband, my God, I have spent an hour to be a while.
[33:46]He's go, like, why are you going?
[33:47]And I just need to go and write, I'm sorry.
[33:50]And then I'd go, would you, would you read it?
[33:52]And he said, no, when it's published, I'll be like, okay.
[33:56]And then you, when I get a finished version.
[33:59]And so when this was about two weeks ago,
[34:02]he was going off traveling, you know,
[34:04]this man, he's going to be 50.
[34:07]And he doesn't read very much.
[34:09]It will do an autobiography if you're lucky once a year, right?
[34:13]And so I said, oh, do you mind, you know, here it is.
[34:16]Big chunky read.
[34:17]And you went, okay.
[34:18]And the first thing he said, you know,
[34:21]he'd got into a, like, 100 pages.
[34:23]And he went, it's much better than I thought it was going to be.
[34:26]And I was like, okay.
[34:29]And then he said, and then he finished the whole thing.
[34:32]And he said, yeah, I couldn't stop turning.
[34:35]The pages I just wanted to know what happened next.
[34:38]And I was like, my work is done.
[34:41]And I love this.
[34:43]Yeah, and blue bar love, didn't she's been very sporty?
[34:47]Because she loves, she loves English literature.
[34:50]She likes writing.
[34:51]And Monty, he is six and a half.
[34:55]So he's like, whatever, mom, I just want you to show up for me.
[34:58]He's got his, he's obsessed with Lego, so that's okay.
[35:02]Well, that is the end of our question.
[35:04]Thank you so much for being amazing.
[35:06]Thank you.
[35:07]Thank you, thank you, thank you.
[35:15]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[35:18]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibbowens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[35:23]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club
[35:27]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[35:30]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[35:34]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.