Rabbi Diana Fersko, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT ANTISEMITISM
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[1:03]Today is Monday, October 16th.
[1:05]And I just interviewed Rabbi Diana Forsco.
[1:08]She is the senior rabbi of the Village Temple in downtown Manhattan.
[1:12]And the author of We Need to Talk About Anti-Semitism.
[1:16]Our conversation was so timely that I am releasing this as a bonus episode.
[1:21]Rabbi Forsco served as National Vice President of the Women's Rabbinic Network and is a member
[1:26]of the New York Board of Rabbis.
[1:27]She received her rabbinic ordination from Hebrew Union College.
[1:31]The Jewish Institute of Religion, where she also earned a master's degree in Hebrew
[1:35]literature for more than a decade.
[1:37]Rabbi Forsco has been preaching and teaching about anti-Semitism.
[1:41]I hope that this episode gives some comfort to all of us out there who are deeply troubled
[1:49]by what has gone on with the massacre in Israel by Hamas terrorist group.
[1:57]And I've been posting a lot on my own social media at Zibi Owens about this, how upset
[2:03]I am on behalf of everyone and everything.
[2:06]And you can follow my thoughts and feelings about it there.
[2:10]But wanted to get a rabbis perspective on what we can do to help, what Jewish people can
[2:16]do, what non-Jewish people can do, how to talk to our kids, how to make decisions.
[2:22]And all of that, I hope you find this to be a balm for your frayed nerves at this time.
[2:29]Welcome, Rabbi Forsco.
[2:30]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss your
[2:34]book.
[2:35]We need to talk about anti-Semitism, which came out in August of this year and literally
[2:40]could not be more timely, prophetic.
[2:42]I was reading your chapter about Israel.
[2:43]I mean, it's really unbelievable.
[2:45]So thank you for coming on.
[2:47]Thank you for having me.
[2:49]First of all, you explain why, but tell listeners when and why you decided to write
[2:54]the book and what was sort of the final straw that said, okay, I'm writing, I'm making
[2:58]this into a book.
[2:59]I've been thinking about it long enough.
[3:01]Sure.
[3:02]So I've been preaching and teaching about anti-Semitism for the past 10 or so years.
[3:07]I'm a congregational rabbi.
[3:09]And that affords me the privilege to speak from the Bima and talk about urgent moral issues.
[3:15]And one of the issues that I saw rising in the world of my congregants and just the
[3:20]world in general was anti-Semitism.
[3:23]And so I spoke about it frequently, and you know, there was some push back because it's
[3:28]hard to even fathom this, but anti-Semitism was not in the news.
[3:33]And in fact, if you grew up like I did, it really felt like it was over in a lot of
[3:38]ways.
[3:39]It was a history, something we learned about, we went to museums about, we heard testimonies
[3:44]about, but it wasn't us.
[3:46]So at that time, you know, it certainly wasn't a popular thing to discuss.
[3:51]But of course, you know, I kept talking about it because I kept seeing it in ways that just
[3:55]made me really uncomfortable.
[3:58]And the more I kept speaking about it, people started sort of coming forward to me with
[4:02]their own stories.
[4:03]You know, something at my child's school made me really uncomfortable.
[4:07]I'm not sure what college just sent my daughter to because I heard that there was some
[4:12]Israel hostility on campus.
[4:14]Things like that kept creeping up, and the stories became more and more troublesome and urgent.
[4:22]And then in 2020, my son about was attacked with a baseball bat, the blast door.
[4:29]And it was during the Black Lives Matter protests, and I say that just to get some context
[4:35]because there was a great deal of destruction that night of the protests in the city.
[4:40]So I'll never know what the attacker had in their heart.
[4:44]You know, was this targeted towards us specifically as Jews?
[4:48]Was it just a part of a night of larger aggression about other problems in our world?
[4:54]But for me, seeing the shattered glass of mice in a bath broke my heart.
[5:00]It was reminiscent of other historic attacks against the Jewish people.
[5:06]And at that moment, I decided, you know, I need to take my message wider.
[5:11]I think that as congregational rabbis, our platform isn't credible to be with people,
[5:17]to hear people, to, you know, speak out.
[5:20]But there are times where we need to reach out, you know, beyond our immediate congregations.
[5:25]And I felt that this was one of those urgent moments.
[5:28]You could talk in the book about microaggressions and the little things, as you just said,
[5:33]what is this? Should I worry about this?
[5:36]Our radar is up a little bit.
[5:38]And that led to, of course, to some of the bigger questions that you write about.
[5:44]Talk about how even these little things have been how we're starting to creep in.
[5:48]Like what are some of the things that you were seeing aside from college campuses?
[5:52]Sure. So small things, you know, I was working out in the gym with a partner
[5:58]and she was telling me a story about somebody and she said to me, you know,
[6:02]who that person is, she's Jewish, but pretty.
[6:06]To me, hello, big Jewish star, she knows what I do, she knows about my life.
[6:12]Obviously, the implication is you can't be both.
[6:15]Those two things are not consistent with each other, not Jewish and pretty Jewish,
[6:19]but pretty. Small comments like that, I think, are often very revealing.
[6:25]And they're very hard for us to know how to address.
[6:29]Do you make it really uncomfortable with your friend or your coworker or your supervisor?
[6:34]Do you call them out?
[6:35]And I think at this point, at this moment, Jews are more likely to say, you know,
[6:41]I'm not sure what you meant, but I do want to let you know how that made me feel.
[6:46]But we're seeing these sort of microaggressions, what I call in the book,
[6:49]the narrowing of the Jewish people, you know, the typing of us that sort of pushing us into this
[6:55]one single dimensional way of looking, being and acting is really a problem that we need to
[7:03]push up against. So I'm not here for microaggressions because I think often they pretend
[7:08]that a much larger problem.
[7:10]Yes, which of course is, I mean, the most unthinkable macroaggressions you could ever imagine
[7:16]or that I could have possibly imagined. In the book, in the chapter about Israel,
[7:21]you conclude with sort of three things, three texts that we could take,
[7:26]knowing the history and everything that's going on now. And I'm wondering how you feel about it,
[7:31]given what's happened. Right. So how can we fight Israel-based anti-Semitism?
[7:36]You say, in my mind, there are three options. Our first option is not to fight it. Instead,
[7:40]we can leave. We can leave the institutions, organizations, and universities that are making it
[7:44]increasingly clear they don't want us. We can start our own institutions, our own climate change,
[7:49]advocacy groups, blah, blah, blah. If you are not Jewish, but support Jews existing in America,
[7:54]you can join us and help us build these new structures. We need you. And then fast forward,
[7:59]then there is the second option. We can stay. We can try to change this trajectory from within.
[8:03]We can send our children to these colleges and help them represent as Jews. We can speak up and
[8:08]speak out. We can counter protest and counter program. We can remind people that just as we have
[8:13]every obligation to fight for dignity and justice for others, we also have every right to be a part
[8:18]of that work. You say this is not a small ask these days. And then finally, you say, and then
[8:25]there's option three, do nothing. We like to say there are no wrong answers, but in this case,
[8:29]there is one wrong answer. Doing nothing is the outcome. We absolutely cannot tolerate. We cannot
[8:35]pretend this problem is on the periphery when it is pervasive and appalling, ignoring it,
[8:41]is enabling it, denying it is helping it flourish. Go from there.
[8:50]It's a very intense moment to have this conversation. I'm so glad we're having it, but please
[8:54]forgive me if I'm emotional. I'm very emotional right now. How can you not, how can we not all of
[9:01]us be emotional? I mean, for context, because, you know, for people listening to this long after
[9:07]this is aired or whatever, this is now just one week, is it even a week, a week and two days
[9:12]after the horrific attack, massacre, terrorist, bludgeoning, just hostage taking situation from Hamas
[9:20]against Israel, one from which the entire country and particularly the Jewish community worldwide
[9:27]is reeling. And, you know, to your earlier point about thinking anti-Semitism was sort of over,
[9:33]this is the biggest, most horrific and unthinkable thing that has happened in many of our
[9:39]lifetimes, particularly, you know, the millennials you talk about in the book, but even for me,
[9:44]I'm 47. Of course, I've spent my life learning. And when you talk about smashing the door, I'm like,
[9:49]Kristallnacht, you know, like everything has a corresponding event in history that we've learned over
[9:54]and over again. And I think that is why this is one of the many reasons why this is so terrifying,
[9:59]because we...
[10:00]know what happened next and what the start was
[10:04]and what it could lead to and all of that.
[10:06]So this is the context into which we are discussing
[10:09]antisemitism in general and where you saw it
[10:12]just whenever you wrote this like a year ago
[10:14]to where it is today and how prophetic this ended up being.
[10:18]So yes, in the book I described three different approaches
[10:21]for diaspora Jews to respond to anti-Israel hate.
[10:27]The first is to leave and I mean that both literally
[10:30]and metaphorically, um, Jews leave places, right?
[10:33]That's how my family got here.
[10:34]It's probably how your family got here
[10:36]and it's happened to us over time.
[10:38]Both by our own volition but also from expulsions.
[10:42]So the Jews of France are physically leaving right now for example
[10:46]and doing mass immigration ways to Israel.
[10:49]We can leave.
[10:50]We can leave our physical places but we can also leave our institutions.
[10:54]Many of these institutions have made clear
[10:57]that it is not a welcome space for Jews
[11:01]that they diminish the ability for Jews to be able to feel
[11:05]like they can be Jewish, do something as simple
[11:07]as where a Jewish star share their love for Israel openly
[11:11]and we can start our own institutions.
[11:13]There's plenty of precedent for that.
[11:15]The Jews of the Roman, when the temple was destroyed,
[11:20]the Jews kept going.
[11:22]We changed our whole way of life, our whole way of Jewish being.
[11:25]When Jews were expelled from Spain, we went to Israel.
[11:27]They wrote a couple of us about which you and I are still saying
[11:30]in shul every week.
[11:32]There's plenty of precedent for Jews starting
[11:35]due initiative, new institutions and building our own way.
[11:39]That's option one.
[11:41]Option two and I've seen a great deal of this
[11:43]in the aftermath of these horrific terrorist attacks
[11:46]is saying and fighting.
[11:48]So I'm blessed to have many Israelis
[11:50]in my American community
[11:53]and they're incredibly active and joined
[11:57]by American Jews and non-Jews
[12:00]in raising their voices, organizing against institutions
[12:03]that they feel are that they're beating,
[12:05]hate speech, exacto reading, anti-Semitism.
[12:08]And that's another option.
[12:10]Let your civic leaders know where you stand.
[12:13]Fun race for Jewish causes.
[12:15]If you're not Jewish, call a friend and say,
[12:19]how can I help get involved?
[12:21]And I think we will do both of those strategies.
[12:24]Right now, the one strategy that I greatly caution against
[12:29]is to do nothing.
[12:31]Doing nothing is being complacent.
[12:33]Doing nothing is allowing anti-Semitism to flourish
[12:37]and we simply cannot afford that at this moment.
[12:43]How are you talking to the congregation about what happened?
[12:46]How are you processing this?
[12:48]How are you personally handling this?
[12:51]How do you get up and do the everyday things
[12:54]and hold the fear and the everyday?
[12:57]I think that is something everybody is struggling with right now.
[13:00]How do we do our normal things?
[13:03]How do you hold both?
[13:05]So how are you sort of holding both
[13:06]and how are you communicating and just how are you doing?
[13:11]The first thing I want to say is that there are levels
[13:14]of crisis here and my heart first and foremost goes out
[13:19]to all the families of the victims and the hostages.
[13:23]Everyone in Israel that is struggling at this moment
[13:28]and that's its own level.
[13:29]For me, as a diaspora Jew and as a leader,
[13:33]I would say I'm doing poorly, like most of us are,
[13:37]but I'm continuing.
[13:38]We have to keep going.
[13:40]The way I'm talking about this in my congregation,
[13:42]for me, it's always about reaching back towards Judaism.
[13:46]We have suffered many, many times before.
[13:49]We've suffered recently.
[13:51]We've suffered in the ancient past and it's all there.
[13:54]If you look at Tanatha at the Hebrew Bible,
[13:58]there are entire books dedicated to this.
[14:01]There's limitations.
[14:02]There's the book of Job.
[14:03]There are songs of comfort.
[14:06]For me, that's where my strength comes from,
[14:09]my our wisdom tradition and our history.
[14:13]I think it's also a very important moment to put down your phone if you can
[14:17]and be with each other.
[14:20]Be in community.
[14:22]We listen to each other.
[14:23]We breathe with each other.
[14:25]We embolden each other and we need to lean into Judaism.
[14:29]You know, Hamas would like to eliminate the Jewish one.
[14:33]We can't let them do that.
[14:35]Every time I feel a sense of panic and dread,
[14:39]which is a lot of times, I do a Jewish thing.
[14:42]You know, give Sadaka, like the Shabbat candles if it's time.
[14:46]Like, call a friend, visit the said, lift up the fallen,
[14:49]fulfill a mitzvah of commandment.
[14:51]We need to continue our particular way now more than ever.
[14:57]Do you feel unsafe?
[14:59]Yes.
[15:00]Like, do you feel unsafe walking into temple every day?
[15:04]Yes and now.
[15:05]So yes, I feel unsafe.
[15:06]Of course, I feel unsafe.
[15:07]Look what's happened.
[15:09]It is not, you know, of course.
[15:12]However, we keep going.
[15:14]We have to show up.
[15:16]We have to be there and we have security.
[15:19]Unlike Israelis, we do not live in arms, reach away from a murderous terrorist organization.
[15:27]And now more than ever, I feel like it's essential to show up in public as a Jew.
[15:33]Who should be reading this book right now?
[15:36]I mean, anyone that's curious about how to help the Jewish people.
[15:41]I think the book will give you a sense of history, but it's not a history book.
[15:46]I think the book will give you a sense of the state of anti-Semitism here and now.
[15:50]What's led us to this point, what Jews are facing every day.
[15:54]And hopefully it will give us the opportunity to fight against it in a clear-minded,
[15:59]emboldened fashion.
[16:01]And people who are listening and feeling compassionate,
[16:05]but are not Jewish, what can they do to help?
[16:09]So many things.
[16:10]And it's essential.
[16:11]Jews are tiny minority.
[16:13]We cannot fight this fight alone.
[16:16]We will not win without the support of others.
[16:20]You can ask a Jewish person, how are you doing?
[16:24]What can I do?
[16:25]You can give money to any of these important causes.
[16:31]And you can speak out in your own organization.
[16:33]You know, what we're seeing is sort of a growing public complacency for the Jewish people.
[16:40]And in some cases, it's just a lack of support and middling responses to these
[16:46]parable attacks.
[16:48]And it's not acceptable.
[16:49]So if you can be an ally in your school system and your workplace
[16:53]in a civic organization of any kind, I think that that will go a long way.
[16:59]I know I've had friends reach out to me that aren't Jewish.
[17:02]And it's just deeply reassuring.
[17:05]What are you most afraid of?
[17:07]And what is the thing that is keeping you going the most?
[17:11]I'm most afraid of Hamas.
[17:13]That's what I'm most afraid of.
[17:15]They're a murderous terrorist organization.
[17:19]I am what's keeping me going?
[17:21]So many things.
[17:23]My fierce belief and love for the Jewish people.
[17:27]Uh, you know, we are the eternal people.
[17:31]It's who we are.
[17:32]I've dedicated my life to the study of the Jewish people, the support of the Jewish people,
[17:36]love for the Jewish people, and so many of us have.
[17:40]So I think I'm emboldened by the strength of our community, by the passion that we've shown,
[17:49]the grit that we're showing, the unity, the solidarity.
[17:52]And just as always, you know, now, but always, I'm fueled by the sort of brilliance
[18:01]and divine nature of our Torah, of our tradition.
[18:06]So there's, there's really nothing that is going to stop us from fighting this.
[18:11]And, and sorry to keep asking you tactical questions, but I think a lot of people are looking
[18:16]for specific answers for all the Jewish people out there who are
[18:22]processing this, understanding the new landscape and reality of life, of how people feel,
[18:31]people who are feeling very betrayed by people who are siding with opposition.
[18:37]And that's, you know, on another level of sort of emotion.
[18:41]A lot of people I think today are going through, what is the counsel for them?
[18:46]What is the, what are the most helpful things that we can all do,
[18:49]both to cope but really to help, to help fortify the Jewish people, to, you know, keep our
[18:57]values strong and to how should we be speaking out, how should we be supporting, like give us
[19:04]a roadmap here. Sure. So these are my priorities. One, I give resources, however much or however
[19:12]little I can to organizations that are on the ground in Israel.
[19:17]So like I saw the Bloomberg was matching donations to Mugging Davida Dome, which is like
[19:22]the Israeli Red Cross. For me, that was easy. Someone asked me to do that. Click, click, click,
[19:28]done. Do that. You know, I like to support Federation. They're very set up here and also on the
[19:33]ground in Israel. I was able to speak at the rally last week that they put together and 20,000 of
[19:39]us showed up in New York. You know, in an instance, it was remarkable. The mayor was there,
[19:44]the governor was there. You know, so I like to support them and they're doing incredible work.
[19:49]So the first level is like supporting things, actions that are happening in Israel if that's,
[19:54]if you feel compelled to do that is something that for me is top of mind.
[20:00]The second thing which I think is very much on the minds of Jewish Americans these days is
[20:07]what do we do here? You know, how do we cope with what you're describing here? A sort of
[20:12]landscape that's newly revealed to some people and a shifting of a narrative that I think some
[20:20]people are very uncomfortable with. One, you can't fix everything, okay? So you need to just
[20:27]know this is one step at a time. And the next, there are two steps here that we can do at home.
[20:34]One, double down on Judaism. It doesn't matter if you've never done a Jewish thing before,
[20:40]it doesn't matter if you went to Hebrew school three times and then you quit. It doesn't matter
[20:46]if, you know, who you are. If you're Jewish, now is the time to engage in Jewish practice and behavior
[20:55]a little more. So pick one thing and try it. One easy thing. The second thing to do is to observe the
[21:03]landscape and obsess where you might have leverage. You might have some leverage in your school
[21:10]system. You might have some leverage in your workplace. You might be a writer and be able to write
[21:16]something. You know, I'm not sure. I know a lot of your people are moms, like you have a lot of
[21:22]leverage in your family. You know, use it. Those are the two things I would say. Do something
[21:27]Jewish and use your leverage where you have it. How do you feel about future books? What would the
[21:34]next book be to follow up? We need to talk about any semitism. What do we need to talk about now?
[21:40]I don't even know what the next hour is going to be, Sivi. I don't. I'm not asking for an actual
[21:45]book. I'm saying theoretic. I'm not saying go to your study and start writing to sing. What do we
[21:50]we need to talk about? What else? What would the follow-up be? That's a great question and I'll
[21:56]think about it. I'm not really entirely sure. For me, I think it's about more broadly about
[22:04]Jewish American identity, that there's a lot of space there to develop what it means to be a Jewish
[22:13]American today. And that's within the context of antisemitism, but it's also beyond the context of
[22:19]antisemitism. That's where my life is and my heart. Amazing. Any last thoughts for anyone going
[22:29]through this or who maybe they're listening to this month's ahead and who knows what will have
[22:33]happened in the interim? What thoughts of yours? Do you want to get out there? The most important
[22:39]thing is to have people thought to be in a community. I think that helps process. I think that if
[22:47]you live on the internet, that will give you one a great sense of anxiety that feels
[22:54]interminable, overwhelming, and unresolvable. And it will also give you a shallowness of existence.
[23:03]Three lines is not enough lines to talk about what's happening here. And it's misleading.
[23:10]You know, warps things. So I think if you're a kid, march yourself into hell out. If you're a
[23:16]college campus, find a Jewish youth group, find a synagogue community, a sports team, a friend group,
[23:22]whatever, where you can be yourself in person and see somebody else's humanity. If you're a mom,
[23:29]like you know what to do, you're doing it. Call all your mom friend, reach out to your book clubs,
[23:35]go to your cinema, you know, like I think moms are incredible in this moment. And I think the key
[23:41]thing to do is things will continue to happen. This will get more difficult on many levels. There
[23:48]will be, you know, very, very difficult moments for so many people in the future. And it's very sad
[23:57]and heartbreaking. And I think when those things happen, you need to be able to have people to talk
[24:04]to already. So make your communities now. I love that. Rabbi, thank you so much. Thank you for
[24:11]talking today. Thank you for all the work you do. Thank you for this book. Could not have been
[24:17]more timely. I wish everybody would read it. So thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you.
[24:24]You too. Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books. Don't forget
[24:30]to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for
[24:35]my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom
[24:40]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[24:45]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.