Jennifer Neal, NOTES ON HER COLOR
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[1:03]Jennifer Neil is the author of Notes on Her Color, a novel.
[1:06]Jennifer is an American Australian author, musician, writer, cook, and occasional stand-up comedian
[1:11]currently living in Berlin.
[1:13]Born in the U.S., she has also lived and worked in Japan, Spain, Mexico, Australia, and
[1:17]now Germany.
[1:18]One of her career highlights is working with Anthony Bourdain, RIP, for Explore Parts
[1:22]Unknown.
[1:23]She works as a freelance translator and producer at Deutsch Wellay, well, and her writing
[1:28]has appeared in Playboy, NPR, CNN, gay magazine, the establishment, SBS, Atlas Obscura,
[1:34]and many, many others.
[1:35]She was nominated for a push-cart prize for her essay in search of better skies in 2019.
[1:40]And she was a 2021 McDowell Colony Artist in Residence.
[1:43]Her essay, Good White Friends, was published in The Anthology Could This Be Love in August
[1:48]2022 with Intercontinental Press.
[1:51]Notes on Her Color is her first novel.
[1:53]Welcome, Jennifer.
[1:54]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss your novel,
[1:58]Notes on Her Color.
[1:59]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:01]So your book has gotten, like, right up everywhere I was on your Instagram, and I was like,
[2:07]oh, it's like, where has this book not been chatted out?
[2:09]This is amazing.
[2:10]And, like, every list, you know, it's so excited.
[2:13]That's so great.
[2:14]Anyway, yeah, I mean, it's really amazing.
[2:16]You know, you spend so much time working on something and you just don't really know
[2:19]how it's going to land or where it's going to land and then when it does, it's
[2:23]shocking in all the best ways.
[2:25]Well, it has such a unique concept and you're a beautiful writer, of course.
[2:30]Can you tell listeners a little bit about the idea behind this book and where it came
[2:35]from and how it translated into what it became and all that.
[2:38]I didn't say that well, but you know what I mean.
[2:41]Okay, Jennifer, what is your book about and where did you come up with the idea?
[2:47]How's that?
[2:48]Sure.
[2:49]It looks like we formulated.
[2:50]Thank you so much for that question.
[2:52]So the book is about a young black and indigenous woman named Gabrielle, who has inherited
[2:57]the ability to change a color for skin from her mother.
[3:01]The story centers really on their dynamic from beginning to end.
[3:05]They are the hearts of the story.
[3:07]They are the dynamic that dies to the reader through the entire thing.
[3:12]And the color changing ability is really a reflection on how dynamic color and blackness
[3:21]really is.
[3:22]I feel like in the concept of passing and literature, it tends to focus on, you know, the
[3:28]binary of black and white, you know, for good reason, whereas in this book, Gabrielle can
[3:32]actually change her skin color into a variety of different kind of colors, like every color
[3:36]on the color spectrum is something that she is capable of.
[3:39]And that was a commentary on how black within color theory is actually the absorption
[3:44]of all colors.
[3:46]And when I was able to kind of hone in on that, I was actually able to utilize a whole bunch
[3:52]of language that uses color to describe feelings and emotions and sentiments.
[3:58]And it just opened up the whole world and that was really a perfect breeding ground to explore
[4:04]this very interesting character in her relationship with her mom.
[4:09]Well, you talk about how this is in the blood, right?
[4:12]This is something that has been passed down and you talk about, you know, at times, like,
[4:17]when she has PMS or, you know, as a friend, she likes to face facts to, like, deal with
[4:22]the changing, or the past thing or whatever you called it when she was like transitioning
[4:26]from one color to another and how like, even that moment is like a thing and it's a physical
[4:31]sensation that something she has to deal with.
[4:33]Tell me about that.
[4:34]Was that just like, what would it be like to change colors?
[4:37]You know, what would that entail?
[4:38]Well, I mean, that was, that was my question, right?
[4:44]So I started with this very interesting kind of, I guess, treasure trove of how color is used
[4:52]in language to describe feelings, like, you know, we talk about feeling blue or yellow
[4:56]bellied or seeing red to describe things like anger and I feel like this is something
[5:03]that women are a little bit more capable of incorporating into their language on a regular
[5:09]basis because we, you know, we have a little bit more leeway to discuss and describe
[5:13]our emotions as long as we're not seen as hysterical, apparently.
[5:17]And I really wanted to kind of tap into that language and I really wanted to just explore
[5:22]one of the corporality of what these emotions feel like.
[5:26]How would I describe the way the anger feels?
[5:28]How would I describe the way that jealousy feels?
[5:31]How would I describe fear, you know, and, you know, this is a writer's job, obviously
[5:35]we have to describe feelings, but I wanted to approach it in a way that made the reader
[5:39]kind of ask themselves how they feel when they're feeling these things.
[5:44]And color just, it was so obvious to me, it was almost too literal to be affected.
[5:51]And yet, that's exactly the path I took it in.
[5:54]So funny.
[5:55]I remember being a kid and realizing that it was possible that perhaps when I saw that
[6:01]color blue, it was what you were seeing as the color green and how like mind blowing that
[6:05]whole idea was in terms of our perception of color, where color even comes from like
[6:10]and learning about it and science and all of that.
[6:12]So fascinating.
[6:13]Yeah.
[6:14]Did you, did you ever, or this was a while ago, do you remember this thing that was
[6:18]on social media many years ago about the dress on Twitter?
[6:20]Was it blue dress?
[6:21]Was it a, yeah, it was, you know, and it became like this massive social media moment
[6:27]where are we all looking at the same picture?
[6:29]Yes.
[6:30]And yet, we're seeing very different things.
[6:32]And I find that very interesting way to, especially the images, like, is this a, is this
[6:39]a cat or is this a person like it's like, I always see the opposite thing from everybody
[6:46]else.
[6:47]I don't know.
[6:48]That's totally, that's what do you mean?
[6:49]Everything.
[6:50]I don't know.
[6:51]Like, this is really, that happens with me like in book covers, like I had to look at your
[6:54]book cover like a hundred times and then I was like, you know, this is supposed to be
[6:58]a phase.
[6:59]So this is supposed to be like, you know, so I don't know sometimes these visual things.
[7:03]Yeah.
[7:04]It's crazy how our brains work.
[7:05]I'm like, what does it mean that I never see the thing that's like, but that's wonderful
[7:09]because that's what I wanted people to like think about, you know, when they think about,
[7:13]you know, when you say the term person of color, that that means somebody who looks
[7:17]like me, obviously, but color is like an entire spectrum.
[7:20]Why does it automatically connotate a certain specific kind of color?
[7:23]Right.
[7:24]So I really wanted to unpack that and really get people to question the terminology that
[7:28]has become so useful.
[7:29]It's on almost kind of mundane every single day.
[7:32]So yeah.
[7:33]Wow.
[7:34]It's a good thing.
[7:35]Okay.
[7:36]And tell me about the interweaving of all of the music too.
[7:40]And I think it was so creative how you set titled all the sections and everything.
[7:45]And I saw in your knowledge, how you're crediting some sort of film harmonic and tell
[7:49]me about music in your life and how you wove that in through this narrative.
[7:52]Yeah.
[7:53]Well, I've always been a huge, huge huge fan of music.
[7:56]It's just always something that's been, I think, really central to my life.
[8:00]I think a lot of artists are really influenced by different genres of art, you know.
[8:05]So the book is divided into six sections after the six movements of Mollers, Third Symphony,
[8:09]Gustav Mollers, Third Symphony.
[8:12]And his creative writing or his musical writing, sorry, was deeply inspired by a lot of
[8:18]Germanic poetry, folklore texts, things like that.
[8:22]So he was always in conversation with other writers when he was crafting his worldwide
[8:26]famous symphonies.
[8:27]And I really like this idea of writing a book that was in conversation with something
[8:32]that Moller wrote that was in conversation with a piece of folklore from like 100 years
[8:36]ago.
[8:37]Kind of meta-store, but also continuing this process of how, you know, texts are recontextualized
[8:44]and reconfigured and redescribed and reinvented, you know, as time goes forward, which
[8:49]is what artists are supposed to do.
[8:51]And I had this idea of wanting to write a book that was as tight and as meaningful and
[8:59]as a dynamic as a piece of music.
[9:02]And that is why I went after Mollers, Third Symphony, not just because it's an incredible
[9:07]piece of music, but because I live in Germany, I live in Berlin.
[9:10]And he's been experiencing quite a bit of a renaissance, you can say, because his work was
[9:15]suppressed under the Third Reich during World War II.
[9:18]And then after the war ended, there was kind of a resurgence of interest in his work and
[9:22]just how brilliant he was.
[9:23]And I have to say I've been all of that bandwagon since I moved here.
[9:27]And why did you leave there?
[9:29]I moved here to write.
[9:30]I wanted like a really quirky kind of eccentric, dynamic group of artsy people around
[9:37]me.
[9:38]I wanted to be part of some kind of broader creative movement.
[9:42]And at the time I was living in Australia, I'd live there for almost eight years.
[9:47]And I was just kind of, I needed to change.
[9:49]I was kind of over it.
[9:50]And I went on this tour of Western Europe and it was London Amsterdam, Berlin and Stockholm.
[9:57]I initially was set on moving to London because...
[10:00]I thought, wow, this just, you know,
[10:02]I already got a community here,
[10:03]and they have great stand up comedy clubs
[10:05]and all this other stuff,
[10:06]because I was performing comedy at the time.
[10:08]And then Brexit happened,
[10:10]and I decided that it wouldn't make a lot of sense
[10:12]to move to a country that had voted
[10:13]to leave the European Union for fear of immigration.
[10:17]So Berlin, it was just, I kind of fell in love with it as well,
[10:21]and I think it was the unfamiliarity
[10:24]that kind of enticed me, kind of intoxicated me,
[10:27]and I thought, well, this will be a challenge
[10:30]and think of all the crazy stories
[10:32]I'll have to share later on.
[10:34]And, you know, I liked the idea of diving into the unknown
[10:37]and seeing how that challenge would inspire me creatively,
[10:40]and it absolutely did.
[10:43]That is like the best philosophy
[10:46]on trying something new.
[10:47]Like, I'm literally gonna play this section.
[10:49]You're like, I'm not even kidding for my kids.
[10:53]But you're like,
[10:54]I'm yelling, I'm running toward it.
[10:55]You know?
[10:56]Like, whatever you hear once.
[11:00]Yeah.
[11:01]I mean, I kind of looked at all the parts
[11:03]about like hard lessons learned along the way,
[11:05]but, you know, with things worth learning
[11:07]and that I don't regret it.
[11:09]There you go.
[11:10]Yeah.
[11:11]I mean, if we don't try new things,
[11:12]like we miss out on so much.
[11:14]I mean, it sounds so obvious,
[11:15]but, you know, fear holds us back so much.
[11:17]And so, you know, it was good advice.
[11:22]What is your relationship?
[11:23]Like, what was your, how did your parents,
[11:25]like, what did they do, right?
[11:26]Like, tell me about that.
[11:27]Oh, well, let's see.
[11:29]They bought me every single book I ever wanted.
[11:33]I mean, because I mean,
[11:36]there's something that's really interesting
[11:37]in the dynamic of, you know, growing up in the South
[11:39]and, you know, a lot of my family lives in Florida now,
[11:43]and obviously I'm from Florida,
[11:45]where each generation kind of had this sort of meteoric
[11:49]opportunities to rise up that previous generations
[11:52]and half because of, you know,
[11:53]the history of Jim Crow and segregation in the South.
[11:56]And I think for my parents, it was very important
[11:58]that I did not experience the same kind of scarcity
[12:03]that they experienced growing up.
[12:05]And from an early age, they really encouraged me
[12:08]to read anything that I wanted to read.
[12:12]And it was interesting because they were very, very, like,
[12:15]mindful of, like, what I watched in TV
[12:17]or the type of music I listened to.
[12:19]But if it was a book, they were like,
[12:20]oh, it can't be that bad.
[12:22]So, so I was reading books by the Marking Beside.
[12:27]I was reading books by Anne Rice.
[12:29]I was learning all the things that they didn't want me
[12:32]to learn from television and music from books.
[12:35]So I would say that's something they got right,
[12:36]but if they were to feel better.
[12:38]You'll probably better.
[12:40]Still have better to be learning those things in books.
[12:42]Just that.
[12:43]Okay, anyway, keep going.
[12:44]All right, you were gonna say you were here.
[12:47]But at the time, I don't, I think they were just really impressed.
[12:51]Like, oh, wow, she's reading the Markita Sott.
[12:53]Like, that's so impressive.
[12:54]We can't wait to tell all of her friends about that.
[12:56]And me, Mom, just like, you know, turning to the room
[12:59]from one very scandalous thing to another.
[13:02]And I'm like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
[13:08]I'm sorry.
[13:08]So what were you gonna say?
[13:09]My parents said what you were going to say
[13:11]if they were here or whatever.
[13:12]Oh, yeah.
[13:13]Well, if they were to hear this now, they probably would, you know,
[13:17]be like, oh, because they didn't read the kind of things that I read.
[13:22]You know, my dad was very like newspaper and biographies.
[13:25]And my mom was a librarian.
[13:27]So, you know, she read a lot of stuff that the kids are reading,
[13:29]but I was kind of out there.
[13:33]Your parents still alive.
[13:34]I don't even know why I'm asking this.
[13:36]But, oh, yeah, you're in boastful life, you know?
[13:40]Don't fall into.
[13:41]I read in your acknowledgements, too.
[13:42]You're very strong views about government in Florida.
[13:46]And we don't have to go into it.
[13:49]But I loved your passion for Florida in general.
[13:54]And even the way you describe it as a character in the book
[13:57]and your, you know, your reverence for it
[14:00]and your hopes and dreams for it, so to speak.
[14:03]But, you know, you look.
[14:05]So, the way I describe it to people is what's the metaphor I've been using.
[14:13]So, if the United States were like a lily pond,
[14:16]Maine and New England would be like the lily pads floating on top
[14:19]about the dragonflies and the hummingbirds and all that, like, beautiful, like,
[14:23]Monet type of picturesque painting type of backdrop.
[14:28]And then Florida would be at the very bottom
[14:30]with, like, all the plastic bearings, the use condoms,
[14:34]like a cheaper car broke kind of floating around down there.
[14:37]It's got a lot of crazy stuff, but it also has a lot of life.
[14:40]And it's very unique in terms of its ecosystem,
[14:44]in terms of its history, in terms of its bridging of, like, Caribbean,
[14:49]most African, South American, and indigenous culture and history.
[14:53]There's no other place in the world like it.
[14:54]And that's why I'm a passionate defender of the state as a place,
[14:59]as a geography, as a kind of phenomenon.
[15:03]The other side to that is that it's run by literal monsters.
[15:07]And that's a very difficult thing to reconcile as somebody who
[15:11]loves the state for what it is and not necessarily
[15:15]the horrific people running it today.
[15:18]I guess I'm very fortunate to have grown up in the mid-90s there.
[15:21]Well, all throughout the 90s there, honestly, and then went to a university
[15:24]and there were early ops there, where it really wasn't like that.
[15:29]I feel a lot of empathy, and I feel for people who are going through all of that right now.
[15:36]And it's really heartbreaking to see just how quickly
[15:40]certain government officials are in a race to the bottom of all the worst aspects
[15:44]of American culture, making that a central platform for the entire country.
[15:48]It's horrific. It's terrifying.
[15:51]And for things like book bands and censorship and all that stuff,
[15:55]hits me in a very personal place because I live in Germany.
[15:59]You know, this is stuff that we talk about often.
[16:01]We remember often back in April, we remembered
[16:03]I think it was like the 75th or 78th anniversary of the widespread book
[16:08]burdens that took place around the country during the rise of the Nazis.
[16:11]So I have this weird kind of parallel sense of looking from a distance
[16:17]at what's happening, but having a very clear idea of where
[16:19]of where that will lead. And it's terrifying.
[16:22]As a writer, as a Florian, as a human being, it scares me.
[16:26]It scares a death on me.
[16:28]Well, I'm praying it does not lead
[16:30]where it led in Germany, that would I'm hoping that
[16:37]I mean, more than hoping.
[16:38]Praying at a very interesting, at any rate.
[16:42]It started to bring tone down there at that.
[16:44]No, that's okay. I asked. I had a feeling
[16:46]you had, you know, it's good, it's good to talk about
[16:52]these things as they're happening and process and all that.
[16:55]Tell me more about your writing from here.
[16:57]What are you doing? What are you writing? What are you working on?
[17:00]Like, what now?
[17:02]Well, right now I'm working on the first one edits for my second book,
[17:05]which is coming out October next year.
[17:07]Oh, I read what, wait, siren something? No,
[17:09]Symphony something? What was it called?
[17:12]No, something with an S.
[17:16]Nothing with an S. Now, there are S's in it.
[17:19]There's an, yeah, there's an S in it.
[17:20]It's called my Pisces heart.
[17:22]Okay, right.
[17:25]It's in two f's. There are two f's there.
[17:27]So you got some.
[17:28]Can I buy a consonant please?
[17:30]Oh, my gosh, okay, sorry.
[17:33]Anyway, I did know what it was called,
[17:34]but I completely forgot obviously.
[17:36]Okay, my Pisces are telling me about that book.
[17:37]That's okay.
[17:38]It's this one's nonfiction.
[17:40]So it's well, my age had described it as memoir plus.
[17:44]It's about my life spent living on four different continents,
[17:47]tracing black histories in each of these places,
[17:51]and how they align with my own.
[17:52]The thread through this book,
[17:54]it's my relationship with my paternal grandfather.
[17:58]And because he was a soldier during World War II,
[18:01]and he went to France to fight and how when he went back,
[18:05]like he couldn't just go back to his very small town in Woodland, Georgia.
[18:09]So he left and I feel like his journey kind of was the,
[18:13]the catalyst that started me and my kind of wanderlust.
[18:16]And I think it's because he and I were very similar
[18:18]in terms of our personalities,
[18:20]and in terms of our values,
[18:22]and that's kind of weaving the whole thing together.
[18:25]So I'm really looking forward to having that out in the world too.
[18:29]That sounds amazing.
[18:30]That sounds great.
[18:30]I can't wait to read that.
[18:31]And when is that birthday?
[18:34]October 2024.
[18:36]Okay, I'd be here before you know it.
[18:38]It really was so close.
[18:42]I am deranged, but
[18:44]but you know, hey,
[18:47]you got to make able to send shining the guests.
[18:49]Yeah.
[18:50]And it's amazing.
[18:51]I've been doing this podcast now for five plus years or so,
[18:55]and I am astounded by like how many repeat.
[18:57]I'm like, really another book by this person?
[19:00]How?
[19:01]Like, how does she do that matter?
[19:02]How did you do that so fast?
[19:03]I'm literally before you got hitched a book.
[19:05]And I was like, there's no way.
[19:06]That's the same author.
[19:07]Must be something that's the same distinctive name,
[19:10]because I interviewed her about her other book.
[19:12]Like, what?
[19:13]Wasn't that like a month ago?
[19:14]How could she have another novel?
[19:16]Anyway, so it's amazing.
[19:18]Everybody just keeps going.
[19:20]Well, I mean, I guess we don't really have a choice.
[19:23]I mean, what else can you do?
[19:27]No, it's great.
[19:28]It's wonderful.
[19:29]It's really wonderful.
[19:31]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[19:33]Oh, gosh.
[19:34]So much advice.
[19:35]I'll try to condense it into something as useful as possible.
[19:38]Number one, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
[19:41]You really should take your time to make sure you are very happy with what you
[19:45]submit either to agents, to publishers, whatever.
[19:49]Because once it's formalized and print, you can't change it.
[19:52]And rejection is just part of the process.
[19:54]The moment you accept that, the easier it becomes.
[19:57]The moment you start to take yourself seriously as an author,
[20:00]That's when the world will start taking you seriously.
[20:02]That means reading as much as possible, making time to write,
[20:05]being very disciplined about meeting your own deadlines,
[20:08]whether you set them for yourself,
[20:09]or other people set them for you.
[20:11]And write only for yourself and for the audience
[20:14]that you want to speak directly to,
[20:15]because you can't make everybody happy.
[20:17]And if you try, that is one recipe
[20:19]that'll lead directly to failure.
[20:21]I've learned that.
[20:22]I feel like I learned that all the time,
[20:25]even with like, thinner reservations or something.
[20:27]I'm like, I'm gonna do this forever.
[20:29]And I'm gonna do this because this person wants to do this
[20:31]at this time and then like, I end up crying.
[20:34]So, no.
[20:35]No.
[20:38]It's fine.
[20:39]How do you learn to listen as fast as possible?
[20:41]I mean, you know.
[20:42]I don't know.
[20:43]I like that's an interesting equation
[20:45]when you like do the same thing over and over and over again,
[20:48]like knowing that like, hoping for a different reaction,
[20:51]but like getting the same thing.
[20:55]You hasn't taken a little bit there.
[20:57]You're like, no, no, no, I've learned my lesson.
[20:59]I know, I have, but I don't know.
[21:03]I learned it, but does that make nice, please?
[21:05]You feel like having internalized.
[21:08]Do you feel like you're good at that?
[21:10]Like, do you can't do live by that advice yourself?
[21:12]Oh, well, now I'm much better at it than I used to be.
[21:16]That's, that's a fact.
[21:18]I used to like you, I don't know.
[21:20]I feel like dinner reservation to like the final frontier
[21:23]of more anxiety, like trying to make everybody happy,
[21:28]trying to like make vegan people happy
[21:30]and people who are gluten free happy
[21:31]and people who have like a lactose allergy happy.
[21:34]And I'm just like, you know what?
[21:35]I'm just gonna book a spot that has nice options.
[21:38]If people want to come, they can come.
[21:39]If not, that's fine.
[21:41]Like we can try different things different people.
[21:43]I think it's just something that you can kind of
[21:44]disabuse yourself a little bit more of as you get older
[21:47]because I don't, I don't see myself
[21:49]as having been that composed of when I was 20.
[21:55]Now it comes more easily, but it's also just
[21:57]because if people don't show up,
[21:59]I'm happy having dinner by myself.
[22:00]So there you go.
[22:01]There you go.
[22:02]I think I might have to, I don't know,
[22:04]put that in the kitchen or something.
[22:05]Dinner, as I said, they're the final frontier of anxiety.
[22:08]I love it.
[22:09]I love it.
[22:10]I love it.
[22:11]I love it.
[22:12]I love it.
[22:13]Thank you.
[22:13]I love it.
[22:14]I love it.
[22:15]I love it.
[22:16]I love it.
[22:17]I love it.
[22:18]Oh my gosh, well, this has been so fun.
[22:20]Thank you so much for coming on.
[22:21]Congratulations on your beautiful book
[22:23]and, you know, you're such a creative original talent.
[22:25]I can't wait for your next book, really.
[22:27]So, congrats.
[22:28]Thank you so much, Libby.
[22:29]It's been wonderful talking with you.
[22:30]It's been a lot of fun, actually.
[22:32]Good.
[22:33]Thank you, Libby.
[22:34]Good.
[22:35]It's so glad.
[22:36]All right.
[22:37]We'll have a great day.
[22:38]Thank you.
[22:38]Bye.
[22:41]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[22:43]Don't have time to read books.
[22:44]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Libby Owens,
[22:47]and at Moms, don't have time to read books.
[22:49]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com
[22:52]and sign up for my virtual book club
[22:54]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:56]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[22:58]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[23:00]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:02]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.