Katherine Lin, YOU CAN'T STAY HERE FOREVER

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[1:03]Catherine Land is the author of You Can't Stay Here Forever, a novel.

[1:06]Catherine is an attorney and writer based in the San Francisco Bay Area and a graduate

[1:10]of Northwestern University and Stanford Law School.

[1:13]You can't stay here forever.

[1:14]It's her debut novel.

[1:15]Welcome, Catherine.

[1:16]Thank you so much for coming on mom's turn-up time to read books to discuss.

[1:20]You can't stay here forever, a novel.

[1:22]And I'm so excited to be here.

[1:23]Thank you so much.

[1:24]Yay.

[1:25]OK.

[1:26]Can you start by telling listeners what your book is about?

[1:29]Sure.

[1:31]28-year-old Ellie Huang gets basically the worst news that you can imagine, which is she

[1:36]finds out that her husband is killed in a car crash and then that he was cheating on her

[1:41]with one of her colleagues at her San Francisco law firm.

[1:45]So in the midst of all this tragedy in a rare act of impulse, she uses his life insurance

[1:50]money and runs away to the South of France with her best friend, Mabel.

[1:55]And they go to this really famous real-life hotel called Hotel Dukap Eden Rock, which many

[2:01]might recognize from the Cannes Film Festival or like UK Daily Mail, which I absolutely love.

[2:09]And as she's at this hotel trying to run away from her life, they run into this mysterious

[2:13]couple of fauna and Robbie.

[2:15]And then no surprise, your demons can follow you to the South of France and soon a lot

[2:22]of the things that they try to run away from both Mabel and Ellie come to the surface

[2:27]in France.

[2:29]And it's a book that I hope, you know, a lot of folks will really enjoy when I was writing

[2:33]it.

[2:34]I was thinking about complicated female friendships and the slippery nature of marriage and

[2:39]monogamy and mother-daughter relationships.

[2:43]I was going to say the mother-daughter relationship piece, I think was particularly striking

[2:48]and her relationship with her mom at once at times fraught.

[2:53]I love that.

[2:54]I love how you described her that scene where she's at a sleepover, watching I don't know

[2:59]dynasty or something.

[3:00]And it's like, oh, that's totally my mom that like wasp onto you and then her friend

[3:05]is like, no, no, you have to be white to be at wasp.

[3:08]It's a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

[3:09]And she's like, wait, my mom's like, I want to be wasp.

[3:12]Yes, exactly.

[3:14]And, you know, it's a thorny really, I think every mother and daughter can talk about

[3:18]thorny relationship that they have.

[3:20]And Ellie's in particular with her mother, Mary, there's a resentment that I think a lot

[3:25]of folks might find familiar.

[3:26]I certainly can find that familiar, but those are so much love and loyalty.

[3:31]And it's so exciting to be on this podcast because I actually recently gave birth to my

[3:34]daughter, my first born.

[3:36]Congratulations.

[3:37]Yeah.

[3:38]And so it's funny because I wrote this book when I had not had a child yet.

[3:44]And I remember writing it and feeling so much sympathy for Ellie.

[3:47]And then it's funny how life humbles you because I'm a young daughter and she's only nine

[3:52]months old.

[3:53]But as I'm, you know, rereading this book and talking about it, my sympathy so much of

[3:57]it has gone to the mom.

[3:59]So it's been interesting also as an author to see how that is played out as this book

[4:04]has gone through its life cycle.

[4:06]I mean, one of the themes, of course, is just no matter what happens.

[4:11]where the mother daughter relationship is sort of, well, I shouldn't say that because

[4:16]I guess it's not the case for some relationships.

[4:19]But at least in this relationship, no matter what, they are there for each other.

[4:23]And even in simple acts, like when Ellie comes out and the mom has laid out a new dress

[4:28]for the funeral, which is that one's heartbreaking and tender.

[4:31]And even just the way she shows her love by taking care of things around her, not necessarily

[4:36]of herself, right?

[4:37]It's just, and how, you know, at the end, that's who she wants to call, you know, it's

[4:42]just so, yeah, anyway, I love that part too.

[4:46]And I loved her Ellie's relationship with Mabel, how she met with Mabel being this, like,

[4:53]like, outspoken voice in her crowd, you know, yes, they meet freshman year of college.

[5:00]And I think, you know, I find platonic relationships really fascinating, especially female

[5:06]friendship.

[5:07]For me, my best friends in my life have just, have been just as important as my romantic

[5:12]relationships and just as complicated and complex.

[5:16]And you know, there's all the love and loyalty, but there's also so much jealousy and

[5:21]competition with really, really long standing friends.

[5:25]Sometimes I think when you meet them, they're kind of frozen in time in your mind for

[5:29]them.

[5:30]And so if you're changing or they're changing, it can be a lot of growing pains for these

[5:35]relationships that you follow throughout a life.

[5:37]And so I think that's really true for Ellie and Mabel.

[5:40]And there's such opposites attract, you know, Ellie is very, you know, tell me what to do.

[5:46]I'll do the, I'll follow the path that's laid out for me.

[5:49]And Mabel is this writer that's really strident and brazen with all of her opinions and

[5:56]says all the things that Ellie wishes she could say.

[5:59]And so in so many ways they complement each other, but as you point out, it's also complicated

[6:03]relationship and you can be rocky at times.

[6:05]And both of them are dealing with their own demons in this book.

[6:09]You had a line, let me see if I dug it.

[6:11]You had a line about how it was about how Ellie was like, maybe we're not so much friends

[6:17]as I'm just following her around everywhere.

[6:19]Yeah.

[6:20]Like I am just her, you know, sort of shadow and all of this.

[6:23]And am I even, is this even a friendship or is this just like a one-sided sort of, you

[6:28]know, puppy dog type relationship.

[6:31]You wrote it.

[6:32]Yeah, but no, I know what you're saying.

[6:33]It's Mabel is, she's the kind of person you walk in the room and everyone wants to know

[6:38]what she's thinking and what she's going to say.

[6:41]And I think there's something that's so alluring about having a best friend like that,

[6:45]but it can also be really overshadowing.

[6:47]And for Ellie, especially, she's at an reflection point in her life where she's realizing

[6:52]that she's so much of her life is being defined by the things around her.

[6:57]So the way that her job defines her and the way that her husband has defined her.

[7:01]And now she's realizing the way that her best friend is defined her.

[7:05]And so she's really kind of setting out and trying to find her own voice on this journey

[7:10]for her.

[7:11]And it was something that I really felt for her, especially since both of them are in

[7:15]their late 20s, which is, it can be a difficult time.

[7:17]I mean, it's really fun and energetic.

[7:19]And I miss it so much sometimes, but it's also, there's a lot of growing pains in your

[7:24]late 20s.

[7:25]It's kind of like a second adolescence sometimes, I think.

[7:28]So true.

[7:29]It depends so much on that sort of found family, striking out on your own and all of that.

[7:35]All of that good stuff with one of, I don't want to like give anything away.

[7:38]But with one of the characters who comes up in the book, there's a moment where she talks

[7:43]about how in her own head, she's always happy sort of being second fiddle.

[7:48]And she'll always take the backseat and she's sort of comfortable not being number one,

[7:53]but instead sort of always being the person behind the person, which I also found really

[7:58]really interesting for someone to have that level of self awareness.

[8:02]And for you to have a character in the book who then has that level of self awareness

[8:05]and where is something like that even comes from.

[8:08]So I was curious about the psychology of that character.

[8:11]Yeah, I think that, you know, this is a book.

[8:14]I think that the heart of it is the way that we feel about our relationship with other

[8:19]people.

[8:20]And so we've talked about Ellie and Mabel, Eleanor mom, but I think that for some people

[8:25]that they always feel like you said, like second fiddle and kind of the person always

[8:30]behind the scenes, but certainly for someone like Ellie, you know, that's not the case.

[8:34]And in fact, that could be the source of a lot of problems to feeling like you're the

[8:39]one who's being pushed along and you're going along.

[8:41]And something that Ellie goes through is kind of, I think, a questioning of that because

[8:46]I think when you are in that place where you think, oh, I'm just second fiddle, it's

[8:50]also giving up some of your agency and some of your responsibility in that part of that

[8:56]relationship.

[8:57]And so I think for Ellie, it's deciding, okay, I am around people who are very, you know,

[9:04]strident and really strong personalities, but is this something I'm also drawn to?

[9:10]And what does that say about me?

[9:11]Why is it that I like to fade into the background and be defined in this way?

[9:15]And certainly at this point in her life, is this something I need to work on?

[9:19]And is this something where I need to step into the spotlight as well?

[9:22]So this is also a lovely escapist book.

[9:25]I have actually been to hotel decapped a couple times or lunch a couple times and once

[9:31]apparently when I was a kid to stay for a little bit.

[9:33]And I've also been to club sank on sank in Santa Fe where you have like literally, I was

[9:38]like goosebumps.

[9:39]I was like, this is actually a real experience of a real restaurant.

[9:43]Like this is no longer fiction.

[9:44]This is like somehow real life is like completely in this novel at this point with everything

[9:50]about it.

[9:51]So tell me about why hotel decapped.

[9:53]I know it's an iconic sort of South of France landmark in a dream.

[9:56]I mean, it would be a huge dream just to like take off and hang out there for a while.

[10:00]But why there? Why the South of France? Why sent your pay? Why the whole place?

[10:04]Yeah. Yeah. So this, you know, I think that as a writer, sometimes settings can do real life

[10:12]settings can kind of do heavy lifting. Like it's a little bit almost like cheating because

[10:16]when there's such a storied place in the cultural psyche for a place like this,

[10:21]when you go there in the book, a lot of readers automatically know what that means. And so I

[10:27]knew that Ellie and Mayable were going to run away. And I wanted them to run away to a place that

[10:31]was very fish out of water where they would feel really uncomfortable. And Hotel Duke Hop was just

[10:36]the perfect place for that. Like yourself, I was also lucky enough to go there once for a short visit.

[10:41]And I've never been more intimidated in my life. Like I've never felt worse about myself

[10:49]than at these places at that restaurant, at this hotel, even just, you know, having lunch at the

[10:54]because it's a place where, you know, everyone is beautiful. And the wealth and the excessiveness

[11:01]of the opulence is really in your face. It's also just a beautiful, I mean, it's a beautiful place

[11:08]in the world. It's just wonderful to look at. And so Ellie and Mayable, being people who are not

[11:14]used to this world, I wanted them to go there and to kind of view and have this sort of critical

[11:19]observation of everything they around them. So of course, you know, when you run away with your best

[11:23]friend who doesn't want to stay at one of the nicest resorts in the world. But of course, when you

[11:28]go there as, you know, Ellie and Mayable are Asian American women, they are primed to be observing

[11:35]everything around them and be aware of, you know, the race, the privilege, the power, the wealth,

[11:41]the class, everything that's going on. And so I would say I chose it in many ways because it's so

[11:47]iconic and it does so much heavy lifting. But also I think it speaks to the themes of the work

[11:52]of the book of trying to find yourself trying to realize how you are defined in relation to others.

[11:59]Okay, well, thank you for taking us there because that was a real joy. And it's very much

[12:05]of the white lotus, you know, ilk. I know that you wrote this. I'm sure that even came out and

[12:11]everything. But it has that same sort of vibe where you're in this new place and it's so beautiful

[12:16]and you're with new friends or them. Yeah, so old friends, but some sometimes people, anyway,

[12:22]sure. No, it's exactly like that. I wrote, you're right. I wrote this more white lotus and I

[12:25]remember when you mentioned working out at all that was coming out season one and then season two.

[12:30]And we were like, oh my god, this is like, you know, what a coincidence. There's so many

[12:34]similar vibes and themes. But yes, it's the idea of traveling is somewhere great. And then

[12:39]realizing, okay, I'm going to have to do a lot of work on myself too.

[12:43]I was wondering actually as I read it, if you had gone through this kind of life-changing loss

[12:49]that Ellie goes through in the beginning, you do take us really deep and quickly into that

[12:56]moment. And it was a great way to, I mean, from a literary standpoint, it's a great way to start the

[13:00]book because the reader is like immediately hooked. And then we are so invested. We have no choice,

[13:05]but to like follow along and see what happens. Yeah. But when I was reading it, I was wondering

[13:10]had something like that happen to you. Or if not, did you model it on a friend or something you'd

[13:15]seen or what? Yeah. So this story actually came to me when I was doing this really long commute.

[13:21]I'm also a lawyer. So I was doing this really long commute. And I always knew that I wanted to

[13:25]write something in the wake of tragedy and loss and so much of even the first paragraph in the

[13:31]first chapter, it was something I knew kind of on this commute how I wanted to start the story.

[13:37]And during this time, I was actually reading a lot of the modern love column in the New York Times,

[13:42]which I'm a huge fan of. And there was no particular column or story that spoke to me,

[13:47]but I remember, you know, I was just drawn to so many of these stories about redefining your

[13:53]relationship with yourself after losses and have to be dead, but any sort of loss and change.

[13:58]And at the same time in my own life, even though I wasn't going through specifically

[14:03]anything as bad as what Ellie is going through in this book, I was also in my late 20s. I was

[14:08]also asking a lot of these similar questions. And in particular, her relationship with her job

[14:13]was something that I really understood. You know, I went to law school right after undergrad and

[14:18]I did a lot of not exactly the same thing she did, but a lot of those similar career choices.

[14:23]And I remember thinking so much of my late 20s was, is this something that really made me happy?

[14:29]Or is this something that I felt that I had to do? And I'm not really sure if this is something

[14:34]in my own free volition, like I would do myself. And so, you know, I still actually really do

[14:40]love the law. I do enjoy it. I don't think I hate it as much as Ellie does, but I will say these

[14:45]this undercurrent of asking yourself these big existential questions was something that I

[14:50]really related to. And I knew the story would be one about loss and tragedy and finding

[14:56]yourself through that kind of the tail end of something that's very, very difficult.

[15:02]But not something that you had experienced.

[15:04]No, not something I'm very lucky that I have not experienced something like that. And when I

[15:08]was reading this book, I really did try to seek out a lot of these, or sorry, when I was writing

[15:13]that a lot of the stories and accounts of people who have gone through something really similar.

[15:19]Yeah, amazing. I am like a junkie for stories of loss. And, you know, I feel like I read

[15:27]so many books and watched so many movies. And I don't know, I think having gone through

[15:32]loss in different ways myself. Like, there's something about reading closely how someone gets through

[15:38]something you think is unimaginable. So I appreciated that in your story. And I had, I feel like I

[15:44]have a wealth of comp. Yes. And what's so hard about this is this book is, is really only follows

[15:52]Ali for like a few weeks after this horrible thing happens. And grief is something that is

[15:58]that you deal with for a lifetime. And so when I was writing this, I was also really cognizant of

[16:02]the fact of, okay, we're following these these weeks afterwards. But also this is something she's

[16:07]going to be happy to deal with with her whole life. I mean, grief doesn't really, you know,

[16:11]just ends cleanly and neatly as much as some people may want it to. And so this is also something

[16:17]I feel like because as I write, these people are so real to me, they're like my real friends. And

[16:23]so I always think about Ali and think, okay, how is she doing? Because, okay, we saw her for a few

[16:27]weeks. But, you know, a few years later, how is she doing with something like this? So it is, it is very,

[16:33]I think, difficult to write about tragedy and loss. But it's also something that's so universal

[16:39]and that we all deal with. Totally. Is this going to be a movie? A TV show? Something? Has it been

[16:44]obviously so exciting? No, we have, we have been in options. And so this is something I'm hoping

[16:50]would be, it would be so cool. I mean, every writer says that right. They would love to see something

[16:54]up on the screen. So that would be super exciting if it would be. And, you know, I always say like,

[16:59]it would be a great excuse. And you may agent joke like to have to go to the hotel to do some

[17:03]research. You know what I mean? Like what a great excuse to have to go and do a little research for

[17:08]that movie. Fabulous filming experience for sure. I feel like in the movie version or like,

[17:15]you know, in the movie version, I would want to see even more scenes with, well, I don't want to

[17:21]like, you know, with how the, you know, infidelity. Yes, yes. I want to see more of that. I want to

[17:28]like, now I'm really curious about her husband and what he was thinking and feeling,

[17:33]because I know we get a glimpse later. Yes. But I don't know. I like, I was left wanting more

[17:40]from all the characters. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. When I write, you know, some people have asked

[17:45]me, who do you relate to? And I know this is like not the most satisfying answer, but I actually

[17:50]feel like I relate to all my characters. And I love them all. And so Ian, the husband, who does

[17:56]something. Yes. Yeah. But he does something so like, okay, he cheated on her for her marriage. And

[18:02]that's something that's so horrible. But it's, you know, as I was writing, because I love all my

[18:08]characters and I love him, I also had this moment where I was like, gosh, I almost want to write

[18:13]things from his point of view and explain why he did what he did and what doesn't mean. And I

[18:20]think for me, the way that Ian has come to me is he is a man who, you know, is very charming

[18:26]and people love him and he's the life of the party. But it can be really difficult if you're

[18:31]also insecure about certain parts of your identity. And for him, it was, you know, the way that

[18:36]he's doing at school. And what's he as smart as Ellie and was he as, you know, book smart as the

[18:41]people around him. And so I always, I had the same gut reaction was like, I wanted to know, you know,

[18:46]more about him and have that come out. But ultimately is a story about Ellie. So no, I know, I know,

[18:51]I know. Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah. Are you working on anything new now?

[18:57]Yes, I am working on hopefully my second book. I'm hoping it'll, you know, it'll have like,

[19:04]it's so early. So it's always kind of difficult to know. And I know I've heard some writers say,

[19:09]sometimes I feel like I'm writing the same book over and over. And as I'm working in my second book,

[19:14]I definitely understand that because even though it's not the same characters and it's not a sequel

[19:20]or anything like that, I'm realizing as I'm writing, wow, so many of these same things like,

[19:25]you know, marriage and monogamy and the relationship you have with your parents and

[19:29]complicated friendships, all of that is kind of coming to a head again in this second book with

[19:34]completely different characters. And so it's been a really exciting time. And I'm in the middle,

[19:40]and it's always hard to tell. So I want to say it's going to be a second book, but who knows? I hope so.

[19:45]And when like is being the writing itself. So you wrote this as a lawyer,

[19:50]this you can't stay here forever. Now you're ready with a nine month old at home.

[19:54]Like where are you finding the time? When do you fit it in? That is a great

[20:00]So when I was writing as a lawyer, a lot of it, you know, I was able, I was lucky enough to take a few months off to try to get this out, but then, of course, books take many years.

[20:11]So I had like this very rough draft. And then as a lawyer, I was waking up at dawn. I was an eviction defense attorney. So I was waking up at dawn and working on it. And so I was tired all the time, but of course, then you have a baby and you realize, now I really know what it's like to be tired in a way that I never was before.

[20:29]And so I would say that I still find that waking up early and writing kind of before dawn is really, really helpful for me. It's been much easier as she's been getting older actually because in the beginning, it was so hard, you know, I had to do with her, you know, it was really hard to leave her side.

[20:49]But this is easier to find two or three hours to yourself and being able to write this. So I would say there's no easy answer. It's really, really hard. And God, I will tell you after having a baby, I feel like I have never thanked my mom enough to go back to mother daughter relationships. I was like, man, oh, man, I got to think my mom more because now I know how hard it is to both work and have a baby.

[21:15]It's insane. Yes. I was thinking, you know, when I had my twins, this is now like 16 years ago, I spent that first summer like literally living at my mom's house with the with the babies and I was driving her. I'm here in Los Angeles now. I have a bookstore here. And so I've been spending time here and I was driving around yesterday.

[21:34]And I was thinking, well, I wonder what it would have been like if I had had my twins out here and with no family around, except I mean, my brothers out here, but you know, they're there. Anyway, it made me want to like call her and say thank you.

[21:47]Oh, yeah. I was, I was very lucky. My mom and dad live in Chicago, but they came like the two days after I gave birth and my mom stayed here for a few weeks and it was the greatest thing.

[21:59]Exactly. Like you really, I mean, because you also need help. I mean, it's helping the baby, but also just yourself in your recovery and getting to rest and sleep and everything. So I was really lucky that my mom was able to come here for a few weeks.

[22:13]And now I'm like always begging her to move out to California. I mean, I'm in Northern California and she's still in Chicago. So I'm still like, please move out here.

[22:21]I know it's like I want to see her more, but then it's also the reasons of like, Oh my God, when she's around it is, it is so much help to have, yeah, have your mother around. Yeah.

[22:29]You had some conflicting feelings in this book about San Francisco. How do you feel?

[22:35]You know, it's hard. I came, I moved out here from Chicago and that's San Francisco, but I moved out here for a law school in Northern California in 2011.

[22:44]And now, you know, it has changed so much with tech and for people who are even, you know, like I'm still a transplant for people who would be here longer. I mean, that that rings even more true.

[22:54]And so I think that there's so many wonderful things about San Francisco and I love the city. You know, I will, I, you know, I am like, we'll die in that hill. I love San Francisco. I think it's one of the best cities in the world.

[23:06]But as the book talks about, it has changed so much and with tech and I think a lot of what I used to do as an eviction defense attorney with housing and has been, you know, a major issue for San Francisco.

[23:21]And so I still love it. I think it's like one of the greatest cities. I love California. I don't think I'm ever moving back Chicago.

[23:29]I'm like, I've gotten soft. I can't go back to the mentors. But I think it is a really interesting place to set your book and to talk about the themes of, you know, class and privilege and power. I mean, it is it is both in San Francisco and at hotel to craft. I would say yes.

[23:50]I mean, we do these zippy retreats sometimes or retreats from zippy media. And now I'm thinking we should try to do an ad hotel to cap how amazing with that faith.

[24:02]I mean, that would be amazing. I can't even imagine. So I mean, that sounds like a really small thing like next summer or something where it's like even just like 10 or 20 people.

[24:17]And you go and maybe like another author who has a book in France or. Oh my God. That would be amazing. And it's also, I'm sure you already knew this, but it's like it has such a story to history with writers because I've got Fitzgerald.

[24:27]When there and tender is the night is that I think based off of it. I think Hemingway maybe also I could be wrong on that maybe also what, but it is it has been around in, you know, kind of just the writing world for such a long time.

[24:41]It's so expensive that we would have to find maybe promotion something exactly. Maybe just let us do it. Yeah. I don't ask hotel to cap please.

[24:51]Yeah. I'm not even kidding.

[24:53]It's I mean, listen, that would be a dream control and I can't even imagine. I mean, it is is such a gorgeous beautiful place and the service and everyone was just fantastic and unbelievably nice there too.

[25:07]Maybe there's some way. Yes, you just didn't in US book lovers or something. Exactly. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors. Oh, that is a great question.

[25:18]Gosh, you know, I have seen so much. I will say that.

[25:23]If you really want to do it, you have to learn how to deal with rejection.

[25:28]It is like my number one of it because it is the one universal constant thing that will happen and no matter where you're in your career, you're going to get rejection and it is so difficult.

[25:40]And I wish I wish I could say, and this is how you deal with it and this is the step and then you'll be totally fine.

[25:45]But it really is such a journey and it's so different for so many people, but I would say, yes, learning how to deal with rejection.

[25:53]And then I would say, you know, it takes so much grit.

[25:57]It's it's so difficult and it's so much endurance and you know, if that's something you want to do. I mean, gosh, we're like all rooting for you because we all need more writers.

[26:09]I think especially female writers is something that we all need and to read more new perspectives and diverse perspectives. I think it's great, but yes, learning to deal with rejection.

[26:19]And if you know how, please tell me because that's something I also am like learning on the street.

[26:25]I'm all about like, you know, dousing myself with.

[26:31]That's a chocolate covered almonds.

[26:33]Yeah.

[26:34]Yes.

[26:35]I don't know tears and chocolate.

[26:37]Yes.

[26:38]I mean, we have to bet you got to feel the feelings, right?

[26:41]I mean, writers, you got to feel the feelings.

[26:43]So yes, it is it is very hard.

[26:46]It's endurance and there's also luck too, which is which is always the heart like hardest thing to hear so much of it is also a lot.

[26:53]I mean, look, I know it's all the people of business and you know, one day to the next things.

[26:58]When's shift and you never know too.

[27:01]Yes, yes.

[27:02]All right.

[27:03]Amazing.

[27:04]I left that on a very negative note.

[27:05]I didn't mean it though.

[27:06]No, no, no.

[27:07]I think that's great.

[27:08]I mean, I will also say the one.

[27:09]We'll add more thing, which is I once heard a writer say this and I think this is true that nothing will feel as good as the writing because there's the business side of it.

[27:18]And you can't control any of it.

[27:20]How it's received, how it's, you know, like all of the business part of it, the capitalist part of it.

[27:24]You can't.

[27:25]But you can control your writing.

[27:27]And so as like the that will be the best part of your job is the writing, which I hope is like a freeing thing because I, you know, on the good days.

[27:35]It's like the best job ever when you have those good writing days.

[27:38]Yeah.

[27:39]Although this can be tortured you.

[27:40]Yes, exactly.

[27:41]I mean, yes.

[27:42]The heart is.

[27:43]Yeah.

[27:44]Well, it was so fun to talk to you.

[27:47]I hope we meet in person.

[27:48]I'm not even kidding about the retreat.

[27:49]I want to figure out if there's any way to do that.

[27:51]Oh my God.

[27:52]I feel like if there's anyone can do it.

[27:53]It would be you.

[27:54]Please, please.

[27:55]I'll give it a shot.

[27:56]Okay.

[27:57]And I love Los Angeles.

[27:58]And I got it.

[27:59]I've been meeting to go down ever since I didn't work.

[28:01]So I got to go down.

[28:02]Come anytime we will do an event for your book.

[28:04]Do you have a, is there a paper back coming out or what?

[28:06]Yes.

[28:07]There is a paper back coming out.

[28:08]I'm not sure.

[28:09]I was just email with my agent.

[28:10]I'm not sure exactly when, but it is coming out.

[28:12]So come do an event for the paper back.

[28:14]That would be perfect.

[28:15]I love, I love LA.

[28:16]I actually lived there for a year.

[28:17]Oh, okay.

[28:18]Yeah.

[28:19]I lived in on the east side.

[28:20]I know there's such a whole thing.

[28:22]I know.

[28:23]People get very, you know.

[28:24]I'm the one.

[28:25]I'm the one.

[28:26]I'm the one.

[28:27]I'm the one.

[28:28]I said of New York.

[28:29]I don't even know.

[28:30]Okay.

[28:31]All right.

[28:32]Well, thanks so much.

[28:33]And this is really fun.

[28:34]Thank you.

[28:35]Bye.

[28:36]Bye.

[28:37]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[28:40]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read

[28:44]Books.

[28:45]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet

[28:49]lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[28:51]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.

[28:56]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.