Yael Goldstein-Love, THE POSSIBILITIES
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[1:03]Yael Goldstein love is the author of the possibilities a novel.
[1:07]Yael is the author of the novels The Passion of Tasha Darski described as showing signs
[1:12]of brooding genius by the New York Times.
[1:14]And of course, the possibilities, a speculative thriller about the psychological transition
[1:19]to motherhood, a people pick of the weak and good morning America recommendation for
[1:23]summer reading.
[1:24]I think that was actually me who recommended it.
[1:26]The possibilities grew out of Yael's own rocky transition to motherhood, as well as
[1:30]as her clinical passion for working with people during this fraught and potentially
[1:34]generative period, her doctoral dissertation examined how mothers experience their anxiety
[1:39]for the unknown futures of their children.
[1:41]Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Boston
[1:44]Globe, and Slate, among other places.
[1:46]A graduate of Harvard University and the Wright Institute.
[1:49]She lives with her six-year-old son and a very patient cat in Berkeley, California.
[1:53]In another life, she was co-founder and editorial director of the literary studio Plimpton,
[1:58]which aims to make the digital age a golden age for literature.
[2:00]Welcome, Yael.
[2:01]Thank you so much for coming on momstone of time to read books, to discuss the possibilities
[2:06]of novel.
[2:07]Thank you.
[2:08]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:09]I'm so happy to be here.
[2:10]Oh, yay.
[2:11]Can you please tell us, and here's what your novel is about.
[2:14]It is about the experience, the psychological experience of becoming a new mother.
[2:18]And I use a sci-fi metaphor to do that.
[2:20]So it's a little bit, it's a sci-fi thriller, but it's really just about becoming
[2:24]a new mother.
[2:25]It's about a woman who's son almost dies at birth.
[2:30]She has this very bad birth, it seems like her son almost died.
[2:33]And then she can't shake the feeling he's fine, but she can't shake the feeling that
[2:37]he came too close, and something is, you know, she can't quite trust that he exists.
[2:43]And then when he's eight months old, he disappears from his crib, and everyone starts
[2:47]forgetting one by one that he ever existed, the cops who respond to the kidnapped call, his
[2:52]own father, eventually, and it's up to her alone to find him and bring him back.
[2:57]And that is complicated because it involves parallel realities.
[3:01]And that is the book.
[3:03]All right.
[3:04]So where did this come from?
[3:06]And when did you decide to take it in this direction?
[3:09]And did you ever think like, okay, well, what if this and what if that and like just
[3:13]kept going?
[3:14]Yes.
[3:15]All that.
[3:16]I mean, it came from my own experience of becoming a mother, the birth, the book starts
[3:21]with this birth scene, the sort of the harrowing birth scene.
[3:24]And anyone who has read that birth scene now knows my birth exactly.
[3:28]Like that birth scene was my birth.
[3:30]Oh, my son.
[3:32]Yeah.
[3:33]And I had a doozy of a postpartum experience as a result of that.
[3:37]I mean, I really, it's like, you know, I spent an hour not knowing if my child had lived
[3:42]or died.
[3:43]You know, I was just like in the waiting room, no one could tell me, is my child going
[3:45]to live?
[3:46]I'm going to take home a child or am I in the middle of a tragedy?
[3:49]And as you can imagine, that hour felt like it lasted a lifetime.
[3:53]And so then I take home this baby, you know, in this cobra cozy and everyone's happy
[3:57]and healthy.
[3:58]But in my mind, I've just lived a lifetime where my child also died.
[4:01]And so it took that normal hyper vigilance of motherhood where you're just like, you know, every
[4:06]little thing.
[4:07]Like what if this, what if that, what if that and you're watching it or keeping it,
[4:10]it took it up several notches.
[4:12]And so I kept feeling as though every way things could have gone, like, you know, that
[4:16]moment.
[4:17]Oh, my gosh.
[4:18]Like what if I hadn't caught my daughter at the last moment and she rolled off the
[4:20]changing table?
[4:21]What if his head slipped beneath the bathwater, you know, it would feel to me like each
[4:25]of those were spinning off into their own reality, on some sense.
[4:28]And they were sort of crowding in on my cozy reality.
[4:32]And it made for a really strange psychological experience.
[4:37]And I never experienced anything like it.
[4:38]And I hadn't heard anyone talk about it.
[4:40]And so I was like, I need to capture this somehow.
[4:43]And the first way that I was able to capture it was to come up with this, this metaphor,
[4:46]this sci-fi metaphor, which was to say, like, imagine if at the law, at the moment
[4:50]of birth, the laws of nature briefly change so that other ways, other possible realities,
[4:57]other possible way things, ways things could have gone, not only exist side by side, but
[5:01]can actually affect each other because that's what it actually felt like to me.
[5:06]And then once I could, I could put it in those terms, I could write through my experience
[5:10]and make sense of it.
[5:12]And it helped me so much, so much.
[5:15]Wow.
[5:16]Well, in the book, you have the main character seeing a therapist who diagnosis her with
[5:21]this sort of, I think he's a dissessative disorder or I can't remember what the technical
[5:25]term was.
[5:26]But was that, and do you make that up?
[5:28]Was that a real thing?
[5:29]And is that what you had?
[5:30]So in the book, I actually have her therapist just gave her, so originally her therapist
[5:36]just gives her, like, the sort of adjustment disorder, just having like, yeah, which
[5:40]does, I mean, that's really just like a therapist term for like, I have to say it's
[5:45]something to insurance.
[5:48]And you're having a normal hard time in response to like a normal, you know, a hard thing
[5:53]in life.
[5:54]And then she has this very weird thing happen early in the book where it seems like either
[5:58]she's crazy or reality is crazy.
[6:00]And then, and at that point her therapist says like, well, maybe these are some sort of
[6:03]like post traumatic stress symptoms with some, you know, some dissociation in there.
[6:08]And yeah, I mean, I didn't have anyone diagnosed me at the time, although I should have
[6:12]been able to diagnose myself at the time.
[6:14]I mean, in retrospect, yeah, I had, I mean, not nearly as bad as Hannah, who's like actually
[6:19]having reality change on her, which I did not.
[6:22]But I definitely had some post traumatic stress symptoms.
[6:26]You know, I couldn't sleep.
[6:27]I was scared to sleep.
[6:28]I have nightmares.
[6:29]I would like avoid certain things that would remind me of the birth.
[6:32]I mean, it was a, I kind of existed in this bubble of pain and fear for months.
[6:37]And it was bad.
[6:38]I'm so sorry.
[6:40]That's really hard.
[6:41]As if it's not hard enough having like a baby at home and dealing with all of that.
[6:44]I mean, a joy, obviously, and in privilege and blessing, blah, blah, blah, blah, but, you
[6:49]know, all of that, you know, it's almost like you're grieving.
[6:52]It's like a loss.
[6:53]It is a loss.
[6:54]I mean, I actually think, I mean, that, and that's part of what I really wanted to get
[6:57]at in the possibilities.
[6:59]There are a few aspects of the sort of psychological experience of motherhood that I really
[7:03]wanted to highlight by changing the loss of reality with even getting psychological reality
[7:08]a little better.
[7:09]And one was, you know, just the existential stakes, like that, like, we roll our eyes at
[7:14]maternal worry, like, oh, a worried mother, huh, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, no.
[7:19]This is not something to roll your eyes at.
[7:21]This is, this is like, this is like as deeply life and death existential weight.
[7:28]As you, as any human being gets, you know, it's like, you are, you have this primal
[7:32]drive to protect this person.
[7:35]And you know, you can't because things happen.
[7:38]Chance happens.
[7:39]And that gap is so, and then, but the other part was this, you know, this crisis, this
[7:45]identity crisis that we sort of have to go through, even if you're having the best experience
[7:50]of becoming a mother, there is no, you have to mourn for the person you used to be.
[7:54]You have to mourn for the life you used to have.
[7:56]And I feel like there's other aspect of it, which is you are learning so many things
[8:02]about yourself that you have kept out of your awareness until now, because I think
[8:06]Karen hood puts the thumbs to every pain point in your side and your makeup.
[8:12]And suddenly you're like, why am I doing this?
[8:14]Why do I react this way?
[8:15]Why does this make me feel this way?
[8:17]And you're, and all these things that you manage to keep out of awareness are coming
[8:21]into your awareness.
[8:22]And so I think there's mourning in that too.
[8:23]Like it's wonderful to get to know ourselves better.
[8:26]It's enriching in many ways.
[8:28]And there's mourning.
[8:29]Like I'm this way, this is a way, I'm that other way that I thought I was, is a way
[8:33]I'll probably never be like that too involves mourning.
[8:36]It's true.
[8:37]Even all the inputs from your own family of origin and how much they're affecting you.
[8:43]And like, oh, I forgot about this whole thing with my mom and, you know, oh, this was
[8:47]my, you know, you just don't even, you don't need to draw up those memories so often
[8:52]in day to day life until all of a sudden they are like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe
[8:56]that just came out of my mouth.
[8:58]And I never thought I would say that.
[8:59]But oh my gosh, here, I just said it exactly exactly.
[9:05]Yeah.
[9:06]Yeah.
[9:07]Well, I am so sorry.
[9:08]The birth scene was yours because reading the birth scene, like I feel like it was so vivid
[9:15]the way you write and the emotions and the clarity and, you know, the arm, it was so
[9:22]real to me that the fact that you had to live through that was of course terrifying, you
[9:27]know, and I think that's one of those other things too where you're supposed to, in
[9:31]times where we're like supposed to be so happy, right, like you should be so happy.
[9:35]You have a new baby.
[9:37]But like something else is wrong, then it's like you're not even allowed to feel all those
[9:40]feelings.
[9:41]Exactly.
[9:42]Exactly.
[9:43]And it's so isolating even from your own experience because I feel like then you're
[9:48]trying to tell yourself, like, no, no, I'm happy.
[9:50]I'm happy.
[9:51]Like this is actually good.
[9:52]It all worked out.
[9:53]It all worked out.
[9:54]Right.
[9:55]But it came in a cost.
[9:56]You know, it came in a cost.
[9:57]Which is yeah.
[9:58]I also think.
[10:00]This deep desire to like keep kids okay is so you know
[10:06]I know you said it was like this primal feeling which of course it is, but
[10:09]Like it doesn't go away. You know people joke about postpartum anxiety
[10:12]And I'm like I still have postpartum anxiety and my oldest kids are what are 16 at this point
[10:16]But like even last night, I know this is ridiculous
[10:19]So like I have all four kids at home. Thank God, you know, they're all back from summer programs
[10:23]I mean, this is like, you know, what was me, but you know, they're all here and I went to bed
[10:27]And I was just like, okay, I can go to bed
[10:30]I mean all four kids are here and they're safe in their in my house and thank God
[10:34]Do you know it like just thank God? I could sleep well, but when they weren't I like could not even sleep
[10:39]Yeah, no that makes perfect sense to it's like you really
[10:43]You're there's like a part of your mind that is constantly being vigilant on there on there behalf. I know I did
[10:49]So I also I also in my other in my other life where I I'm a doctoral student in clinical psychology
[10:55]And I see psychotherapy patients and I did my dissertation research on how mothers experience the anxiety for the unknown futures of their children
[11:02]So I
[11:03]saw all these mothers about and one thing I learned that I'd always suspected but like it was I think helpful to have confirmed
[11:12]It never it truly never I mean I said to mothers who like their kids were in their 30s or 40s and they're still feeling this way, you know
[11:19]You're and I'm like, okay, so this is a life-long condition
[11:29]Wow, what else did you learn from the women? What what did you get from them? You know a lot
[11:33]I learned a lot. I mean I would say to me one of the most interesting things I learned was that
[11:39]Well one thing was that everyone worries about their worry like they worry about whether they're worrying too much
[11:46]And so and so one there was like if there was one takeaway it was like don't worry about your work
[11:51]Like it's so normal that you have your worry
[11:53]But don't let it control it you know
[11:55]You want to like have some distance from it so you can be curious about your worry and like why am I worrying about this particular thing?
[12:02]Like don't take your worries fact
[12:03]I guess was the thing I came away from but don't worry about it, you know
[12:08]You're serious about it because the worrying about it then you start driving yourself crazy
[12:12]And then you feel bad about yourself and then you doubt every instinct and they so that was one thing the other thing
[12:18]I that I was really surprised to find was I found that
[12:21]The women who came in saying oh my god
[12:25]I'm such a worried mess like I'm a disaster. Let me tell you all about it. They were not a mess actually
[12:29]I mean they were very worried and they were very aware of their worry
[12:32]But they also found I mean as I just had like this richness and meaning and they were they really did
[12:37]They would say these beautiful things about how like it gave them a sense of like more of the abundance of life
[12:43]And like they could feel like the beauty of it because because it was like up on any moment
[12:49]It could be ripped away like just these beautiful
[12:51]Engaged rich statements that they were gleaming from their experience of maternal worry
[12:56]And then the women who came in saying like, you know, I don't even know why I responded to your call
[13:01]Like I'm really not very worried. I'm very good at controlling my worry
[13:03]You know, I have the following tools and techniques that I used to control my worry
[13:07]They were a little bit of it
[13:10]Because they were not letting in the worry and sort of and and grappling with it and sitting with it and just acknowledging
[13:18]That it's it's necessary that like our children's futures are uncertain and you just have to make peace with that in some way
[13:24]So instead of making peace with it they're trying to keep it out of mind and they and some really
[13:30]You know upsetting material
[13:32]It's sort of like spring out as they were talking, you know
[13:34]Just these like dark images and fantasies of escape to like safe heathens and and that I mean
[13:41]I found that really interesting
[13:42]I felt like yeah, I mean if there's if there was a takeaway from that for me
[13:45]It was just acknowledge and make peace with and accept that this uncertainty is
[13:49]Incredibly hard and inescapable and you have to find a way to to sit side by side with it somehow
[13:56]Wow
[13:56]so
[13:58]you're
[13:59]Clinical psychologist
[14:01]doctoral student. Yes, doctoral student. You have written this novel. You have
[14:08]How old is your your son now? He's six and a half. He's six and a half. Do you have other kids?
[14:14]It's just okay. So when were you doing this book? Like how did you get this?
[14:19]How did you get this all done? How long did it take? What time did you find to write and like how did you not let
[14:26]The book itself stress you out. Oh, that's that that that last one. I'm I'm not sure about
[14:34]I'm like a compulsive right I'm always in the middle of writing a novel
[14:38]I don't know how to not be in the middle of writing a novel if I'm not in the middle of writing a novel
[14:42]I don't know where to put my thoughts
[14:44]And so I think I just sort of found the time the pandemic helped me
[14:49]I will say because instead of seeing my psychotherapy clients in a clinic
[14:54]I was seeing them at home over zoom and I always stagger people by an hour because I don't want one person's
[15:00]World to like infect another in my mind
[15:02]So I would take like 10 minutes after I was done with someone sort of like stream of consciousness
[15:06]Right down all my thoughts and feelings about what had just happened
[15:09]Take a breath right for an hour
[15:11]See the next person do that again
[15:13]And it was sort of it almost like was like pallet cleanser who would like bring me back to myself
[15:17]And then I'd be able to enter someone else's world entirely
[15:20]So that was how I wrote it. I wrote it between psychotherapy clients
[15:24]And then sometimes you know early early in the morning before my son woke up
[15:27]And how did I not let it stress me out? I mean I think actually
[15:31]This was the least stressful book for me to write and it's been the least stressful book for me to publish
[15:36]Because before I was a mother
[15:38]I had a different relationship to my ambition and to my art
[15:42]Like I was just like this I want this to be like received this way
[15:45]I want it to like people to read it in this way
[15:47]I want to be you know taken seriously in this way
[15:50]All these things I had to do with how other people were going to experience it
[15:54]How I was going to be received
[15:55]How the world would like take and with this book
[15:58]It's like I don't have time for that and and and my life and my internal world
[16:02]Feels like such messy
[16:04]Fascinating chaos to me that this book
[16:07]I just need this to make sense of it
[16:08]Like this is my personal meaning-making project
[16:11]To like make sense of what life is right now
[16:15]And what I'm going through and what other people have gone through when they go through this
[16:19]And so there was like an urgency and a personal urgency to it
[16:22]And even now like you know in the publication
[16:24]It's sort of easy to slip into like oh you know like oh the New York Times loved it like
[16:28]That everything's great and that feels great for like 10 minutes
[16:31]And then your kid is like really mad at you because you got the wrong Pokemon card
[16:35]And that's like the next three hours, you know
[16:37]Like that's real life that's what matters and it's so much more grounding
[16:42]And so I just I don't stress about it in the way that I used to
[16:44]It just feels like one tiny thing that's happening in my life
[16:48]I mean, I feel like maybe more than 10 minutes
[16:50]Maybe an hour you could get from the hard time
[16:52]I know a day
[16:53]I might have had it, I think I had a full hour
[16:55]My son really was quite mad about this Pokemon, except yes
[16:59]No, I understand that
[17:00]We have a Pokemon whole situation
[17:02]We had like nights where everything had we were like all putting them in the sleeves of the thing
[17:06]And let's put it this way and can you help me?
[17:08]And I'm like oh my gosh, why am I spending my time putting my cup to the sleeve like this takes forever
[17:14]The other night I found myself like my son was already in sleep
[17:19]And I was putting Pokemon cards in the right categories in the binder
[17:23]Yes, yes
[17:28]I have been in that
[17:30]That's physician because I'm like well, they're not you know and then
[17:33]Are they alphabetized correctly?
[17:35]I mean, I'm like this is ridiculous. This is ridiculous
[17:38]Yeah
[17:39]There's like a weird satisfaction in it though, I have to say I agree
[17:43]I agree
[17:44]Also, it's nice to know like this is what my trial means
[17:47]And this I can do as opposed to like
[17:50]I think he might need like
[17:52]I don't know I don't even know this like
[17:54]There are just so many things we don't know
[17:56]But this is so so clear
[17:58]Oh, I think that's I think you really put your finger on it
[18:01]That is part of the satisfaction
[18:03]You know, it's like your kid might be like having trouble with their friends at school
[18:06]And like how do I protect them for protection?
[18:09]How that's like you can't but you can organize those potions
[18:15]Oh, yeah, that's so funny
[18:16]I've never thought about it that way, but yes, yes
[18:20]Okay, maybe it takes a certain neurotic mother to like find so much joy in that
[18:25]But I feel very seen at the moment
[18:28]I do show I appreciate that
[18:32]Okay, so then how did you get into writing to begin with like tell me about growing up
[18:36]Where did you grow up? What's your whole story?
[18:37]I grew up in New Jersey. I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish community
[18:41]So that is I feel like I grew up in like the 18th century a little bit
[18:46]Which I think is helpful as a writer because you look at everything from like you're like
[18:49]Look at this interesting world. I'm in like what what happens here in California in the 21st century
[18:55]But my mother was an off-last
[18:57]So it was very like that was just like that was just a thing grown-up stint
[19:01]Like some grown-ups were marvelous
[19:02]Like that was just a very normal thing
[19:04]And so I had it I always had it in my mind that that might be a thing I would do
[19:09]It's funny because this feels very timely with the Barbie movie out now
[19:12]Which I've not seen yet somehow, but
[19:15]I know it's ridiculous. I got I got it. I really I got to put that on my on my on my priority less
[19:20]But I my mother for a while when I was young was like no Barbies
[19:23]You know feminist no Barbies and then finally she caved and when she caved she caved big
[19:28]and I had like dozens of Barbies and I had this like
[19:32]Ongoing religious drama starring my Barbies
[19:37]That it went on for like years
[19:38]And I didn't have to clean up my room because like this like the plot line would be you know
[19:43]Disturbed if I had to clean up my room
[19:45]And I think that was when I became a novelist
[19:47]You know, I was just like I am working something out here
[19:50]And it and I have a plot line and our story arc and characters that are going on for years
[19:55]Even though they are all Barbie
[19:56]And I think that was it like I was hooked. I was like this is how I make sense of my
[20:00]world. This is how I make sense of everything around me. It's through taking characters and having
[20:05]them go through difficult things. I will say also my father, this is relevant to the book because
[20:12]there's like this physics in it. My father is a mathematical physicist who works in foundations
[20:18]of quantum mechanics which comes up in the book. And so that it was like I had sort of both these
[20:23]things, the sort of the novel writing and this sort of like immersion in science. And I think
[20:30]that that came in particularly handy for this book and realizing like oh like a natural way for me
[20:35]to write is actually to do this sort of like sci-fi like you know this like using a little bit of
[20:42]sci-fi to get it's psychological reality. And it was such a fun way to write and I think I'm
[20:48]going to do it from now on honestly. Sounds great. And then did you debate ever being a full-time
[20:56]writer versus being a therapist or being a psychologist or other things you were interested in?
[21:01]Oh there were so many things I was interested in. For a while in my 20s I just wrote and actually
[21:07]I think in my early 30s as well. There was a period of time after I had published my first novel which
[21:12]I think I was 27 or 28 when I published my first novel where I was just writing and I was teaching
[21:17]writing you know I was teaching writing and everything was about writing and that just did not
[21:21]work for me. There was some combination of like well I'll tell you I think that the main thing
[21:26]that happened is that I realized I just didn't like teaching writing that much. There were parts
[21:29]of that I loved but I felt like when someone gave you a piece of writing you had two choices. You could
[21:34]either tell them how to make this into the best version of what they wanted it to be or you could
[21:40]tell them how to make it like something that might actually sell and like be successful. And I
[21:44]was really interested in the second part. I was interested in like figuring out with them the first
[21:48]part like what do you want this today? What would this what's you know and and that to me I was like well
[21:52]maybe there's another way to do this like maybe that's more being like being a therapist and I
[21:57]and I think that really you know what that highlighted for me is that what I am so interested in
[22:03]as a novelist, as a human, as everything is just like what is it like to be a human? What is it
[22:07]like to be other people? What is it like from the inside for everyone and I just feel like well there's
[22:12]a job where I can do that and I can actually help people by doing that. That sounds really nice
[22:18]and like a really good balance to being a novelist and and and I have found that and it's also so
[22:23]nice to have a place to put your ego that is not like subject to the whims of the market.
[22:32]I thought I thought I wanted to be a clinical psychologist. I took the GREs and I was
[22:39]intensive psychology major in college and that's what I wanted to do because like you I am
[22:43]fascinated by people. I love understanding people. I never get tired of people's stories. I think
[22:49]that's why I do this. Like I hang on everywhere. I'm like legitimately interested and I'm like tell
[22:53]me your story. I want to hear it and ended up just not being the path I followed for all these
[22:58]different reasons but um that's if I had a sci-fi novel about my life it was the possibilities. I
[23:03]think that I would have had a life in which I became a psychologist and like you would have seen
[23:08]what happened there. So oh I'd like to read that that sounds good. Maybe you should write you can
[23:13]write that you know. I'll give it to you. Take it. Are you writing anything new by the way?
[23:21]I am yeah I'm I've started a new book and and I'm having fun. I'm like sort of still in that
[23:26]place with it where you're like it's all play and it's all just like and maybe this and then
[23:30]like you have some weird image you're like well how does that thing just go down some rather
[23:35]that's how that fit. So it's like it's like hard. After a while I was calling it my sci-fi house of
[23:41]birth but I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it's anywhere but I still I like the sentence
[23:46]all I still say. Yeah I like the sentence too. I'm not sure you're getting totally intrigued.
[23:53]I'm glad you think that. Do you read a lot of sci-fi? Like what's your go to?
[23:57]Actually I do. Yeah and I read I read Voracious like I think like most writers and book lovers do
[24:04]but um I I think that I was actually I was thinking about it the other day because I'm obviously
[24:09]I'm getting asked this a lot about you know what sci-fi read and I think this is true but I can't
[24:13]be sure I think that so the book I've read most in my life I think I've read it like 9 or 10 times
[24:18]is Georgia is Georgia. It's middle March like middle March is the most. So Georgia Elliot is the
[24:22]writer I've read but I think that the writer I have reread the second most is Octavia Butler.
[24:28]I just love her and I love which I mean and she does exactly what I find most
[24:34]interesting and and and valuable about sci-fi which is like she just tweaks the laws of nature
[24:41]just enough to show us our own reality in a new light and to me that is the power of sci-fi is
[24:48]that it you know I think there are some people who write sci-fi to just like you know for like a
[24:51]complete escape of reality and that's beautiful and that's but that's not the kind of sci-fi I love
[24:56]like what I love is that you know it just like it pulls back the curtain to show us something about
[25:02]our own reality in a completely new way and so yeah I just I admire her without bounds and and
[25:08]other I'm and yeah I would say you know all the sci-fi writers that I really love and respond to
[25:13]do something similar to that and there's so many and then there's so many people who write
[25:18]it's sort of like between genres in the way that I you know that this book I was trying to do and
[25:24]and that I think and I think I kind of will do from now on it's like Victor Laval and I don't know
[25:28]if you'd ever call him sci-fi writer but he like it's like it it defies genre you know but and
[25:34]he's he's one of my absolute favorites and Emily St. John Mendel like similarly it just these
[25:38]things were like who cares what genre this is it's a great story why don't we do what genre
[25:42]I'm sorry I didn't even reason I was just asking if you like oh no oh my god I'm kidding I'm totally
[25:50]kidding okay do you have any advice for aspiring authors yeah I that's a great question um
[25:58]I would say enjoy it enjoy the writing because that is the only fun part and if you're not and
[26:07]don't think about and I think maybe I maybe maybe the sort of more practical way of saying that
[26:12]is like do not worry about what you think might sell because you have no idea what might sell
[26:18]the fashions are constantly changing trends are changing you have no idea like what just flocked
[26:22]what just did well because there's too much of it to know so right when you feel passionate about
[26:28]enjoy the process if you're not enjoying writing some particular scene because it's like feeling
[26:33]plotting you are not writing it the right way it is gonna feel plotting so like following that
[26:39]joy in the writing I think is everything I love it wow and you're based in California is that what
[26:46]yeah I'm in Berkeley you're in Berkeley amazing this is great thank you so much I'm totally
[26:51]enjoyed chatting with you congratulations on your book I can't wait to read the book we came up
[26:55]together and yeah I hope I get to meet you in first and one day I hope so Jeff thank you so much
[27:01]it's really okay bye bye thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books
[27:09]don't forget to follow me on instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books
[27:14]also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet
[27:19]lots of authors on zoom every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at texture sound for
[27:24]the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and