Noelle Crooks, UNDER THE INFLUENCE
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[1:03]Noelle Crooks is the author of Under the Influence, a California native, Noelle's love
[1:08]of books started at a young age with coveted trips to the local library with her late father.
[1:13]Before publishing her debut novel, Noelle majored in journalism and has held roles at Sephora
[1:17]and Dolce Vida and was the brand director at the Hollis Company.
[1:21]An education activist, Noelle's passionate about supporting youth literacy within marginalized
[1:26]schools.
[1:27]With her debut novel, Noelle has also found herself as a champion for better workplace environments
[1:32]for all.
[1:33]She currently resides in New York City with her sidekick, pup Cooper.
[1:36]Welcome, Noelle.
[1:37]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss under
[1:41]the influence.
[1:42]Thank you so much.
[1:43]I'm so excited to be here.
[1:44]Congratulations.
[1:45]And this is the coolest cover.
[1:46]And by the way, you are like the only person I know who color coordinates their outfits
[1:51]on Instagram so that every picture, like it's the theme without having to curate.
[1:56]It's pretty awesome.
[1:58]Thank you so much.
[1:59]I feel like if you open my closet right now, it's just all green and pink.
[2:03]And you know, I wouldn't have it any other way.
[2:04]So I know the other day, I'm like, I think I'd save time.
[2:07]Isn't it like Steve Jobs says he only wears black children next?
[2:10]I'm like, maybe I'll just wear blue then everything will always match.
[2:14]Exactly.
[2:15]It's the unsaid uniform.
[2:16]Yeah.
[2:17]Exactly.
[2:18]Okay.
[2:19]Under the influence, tell everybody what your book is about, please.
[2:21]Yes.
[2:22]So under the influence, it's about a young woman named Harper and she applies for a job
[2:27]on a whim working for this charismatic influencer Charlotte Green.
[2:32]And the job application also means that she has to make a move to Nashville.
[2:37]So she picks up and moves her lives to Nashville and it begins working at the greenhouse.
[2:42]And in the beginning, she finds it really challenging and exhilarating.
[2:46]But the longer she ends up working there, the more she realizes that there could be a
[2:50]dark side to being a girl boss.
[2:52]Interesting.
[2:53]You have so much in here about the whole sort of cult-like atmosphere of working for an
[2:59]influencer who has so many trap, not trappings, but things are set up around her from the
[3:07]homes where people live nearby and work to the way they do everything, to having to post
[3:13]a certain time, to optional activities that are not optional at all.
[3:17]Talk to me about this whole influencer company mentality.
[3:22]And I'm hoping that I'm running my business because I'm like always saying, oh, this
[3:27]is optional.
[3:28]And it is, you know, but then I'm like, oh, no, it might make you people feel like it's
[3:31]not optional.
[3:32]But anyway, tell me about this whole culture.
[3:35]Yes.
[3:36]So it was something that I sort of decided to research more about also when writing this
[3:41]book, which is this idea of workplaces and specifically toxic workplaces.
[3:47]And kind of what I've come to find is the most toxic workplaces that people kind of end
[3:53]up coming forward with or what you kind of hear about online are always the ones that
[3:57]are like a little bit sexy and a little bit cool.
[4:01]And they're the ones that have the Instagram pages that are just filled with, you know, smiling
[4:05]happy employees and all of these amazing mission statements on the website.
[4:10]And then like beautiful offices, all of the things and come to find that, you know, behind
[4:15]closed walls, there's these crazy, interesting rules and policies or rituals like dance
[4:22]parties and like you said, optional events that are not actually quite optional.
[4:27]And so to me, it was just such a fun sort of setting to explore a lot of the themes of
[4:32]influencer culture, social media by telling this story that kind of shares a lot of what
[4:39]some people face every single day going into these toxic workplaces that they might not
[4:44]have known about when they applied for the job.
[4:48]So when does it become, I mean, I know that Harper quickly realizes that she's maybe
[4:53]in over her head, you know, even from her wooing from the rapid fire application process
[4:59]and how she's selected and blah, blah, blah, and how she has no visibility into anything
[5:03]she's going to be doing and yet has to fly to Nashville and drop everything and only
[5:08]her parents are there is like, sort of standing boards.
[5:10]And obviously when she gets there, she encounters a lot of surprises as to what the company
[5:15]is like in the culture and all of it.
[5:18]When does it become obvious?
[5:20]Do you think in the real, in real, like how do you know?
[5:22]Basically when can you, how do you avoid getting into this and should Harper have made
[5:27]a different decision and how do you know where is the line between toxic and healthy?
[5:34]Like where is that line?
[5:35]Yeah, I think that's a great question and I think it's something that people are still
[5:39]sort of uncovering right now, right?
[5:42]Because I don't think the line or expectation is, you know, I'm never going to work
[5:46]a minute past 6 p.m. or a minute past, you know, my hours because it's unrealistic.
[5:50]So obviously I also want to show up to your workplace and feel really excited and dedicated
[5:56]and passionate and sometimes that does mean working, you know, a little bit of extra hours
[6:00]here or there.
[6:02]And I do think though a lot of kind of the happenings that are going on in the greenhouse,
[6:08]the sort of red flags, if you will, are I think the cult-like atmosphere.
[6:13]So the really specific rules about, you know, what can and can't be on your desk,
[6:18]is sort of unspoken expectation that everyone's participating in a dance party, we're
[6:23]all getting up, we're all dancing our little hearts out.
[6:26]And those sort of things that don't necessarily actually help with productivity and just
[6:31]kind of weird rituals that are occurring.
[6:34]I think in terms of how someone could avoid this is I always like to think of applying
[6:40]for jobs as almost like dating.
[6:43]You would never go on a date and kind of put all of your eggs in their basket and just
[6:47]answer all of the questions and walk away hoping that this person, you know, likes
[6:51]here wants to go on a second date.
[6:53]You would always go into it with, you know, your own sort of questions, your own sort
[6:57]of expectations or things that you're hoping for and have it be a two-way street.
[7:02]And I think job interviewing should very much be the same thing where whatever is important
[7:06]to you, whatever that might be in terms of a company culture or something specific within
[7:11]your role, making sure that you are well-versed and asking the right questions and making
[7:17]sure you're also getting a whole picture.
[7:20]I think sometimes companies like to just have you interview with one or two people, sort
[7:24]of like a fast interview process.
[7:27]And I think asking to interview with other members of the team and really trying to do
[7:31]your due diligence to get an accurate representation of, you know, what is the day-to-day
[7:36]like here?
[7:37]Not just exactly what's on their career page.
[7:40]Yeah, good advice.
[7:43]So I know from your bio, you worked at the Hollis Company and I had actually Rachel
[7:47]the Hollis on my podcast a while back.
[7:49]And before I read your bio, because I just sort of dove right into the book, I was thinking
[7:54]to myself, oh, I wonder if she ever worked for any sort of influencer that she's getting
[7:57]all this information.
[7:58]And then at the very end when I saw your bio, I was like, oh, okay, well, she worked for
[8:01]Rachel Hollis.
[8:02]So I don't know.
[8:03]I'm sure you can't talk about your experience there or how I'd informed this.
[8:06]And I know this is all a work of fiction and all of that.
[8:09]But I don't know from your own experience, at least in the world of influencers and
[8:14]companies under influencers, like, what can you say?
[8:17]What do you think about the culture of the influencer at all?
[8:21]And what can you share about what happened with you?
[8:23]Yeah.
[8:24]So to start, I mean, I definitely felt victim to hustle culture in my early 20s, similar
[8:29]to Harper.
[8:30]I like to say sort of the forever teachers pet.
[8:35]And I have that sort of energy, but I've always been very excited and ambitious and ready
[8:39]to go and hit the ground running.
[8:41]And we sort of see that a lot with Harper going into her job where she's a little bit
[8:45]green and younger and things like that.
[8:48]And in my early 20s, that is also when girl boss era kind of was birthed.
[8:53]And so going into the workforce during the same exact time that this girl boss narrative
[8:58]was happening really ended up being almost a perfect storm for me.
[9:02]And so a lot of the learnings that I would say Harper goes through are learnings that
[9:07]I ended up having to go through as well in terms of understanding what work life balance
[9:12]looks like.
[9:13]I definitely spent so much time dedicated to my career and really letting other things fall
[9:19]to the wayside.
[9:21]And for me, this book is definitely like a manifestation of lessons that I kind of wish
[9:26]I would have read right out of college and in terms of the influencer culture, I always
[9:32]like to say that the book is very much kind of a vessel for conversation.
[9:37]It's not really like a point of view or an opinion on any industry or any person.
[9:43]And I feel like with an influencer industry, there's always going to be people who have
[9:49]kind of bad intentions or negativity or maybe motivated by the wrong things regardless
[9:55]of occupation.
[9:56]You could have a bad police officer, lawyer, doctor, etc.
[10:00]And so just as much as I think there are bad influencers out there, I definitely think there are great ones. And I think there are influencers that are kind of moving things forward and helping people in society feel really heard or seen or feel like they're kind of curating a community of people that might not be able to, you know, connect with people who look like them or have gone through similar life experiences.
[10:26]So to me, I think influencer culture, it's complicated and I think it in terms of how it manifests in the book. It does show the dark side of it. And I think that's important to remember as someone who goes on social media or somebody who consumes it is knowing that at the end of the day, there is someone who's 3D behind, you know, the screen that you're looking at and just being a little bit smarter about the content that you consume or about, you know, how much you believe.
[10:56]In terms of like the Paris social relationship you have with this person and just examining that a little bit.
[11:03]Just saying.
[11:04]One thing I found interesting was Charlotte's relationship with her husband or his involvement with the company, how Harper even sort of gets to know him and how he's just trying to find his way.
[11:19]He's trying to start these Mr classes and did he help? Did he not like, tell me about this character and the role of men in a girl boss world.
[11:28]So Ryan, I really love this character a lot because I think he kind of represents, I just watched the Barbie movie and when I was watching it, I was like, oh my gosh, Ryan would fit in with all of these kids.
[11:41]And that's very much what Ryan kind of is in the book is that traditional white guy who sort of always had to write upbringing with the right people onto the right schools and he has, I think this feeling within him that he wants his wife to do well and succeed, but just not better than him.
[12:03]So when the spotlight sort of begins to shift more and more onto his wife he becomes very uncomfortable with it.
[12:11]And to me, I wanted to have a character that was very uncomfortable as a partner or as a male with seeing someone succeed next to them, especially a female because to me that is a story that a lot of women can relate to.
[12:30]To open that up and show what it looks like to have this husband who is so deeply uncomfortable with their wife, you know succeeding or having a spotlight.
[12:41]And it was something I personally have experienced in my life being someone who I feel ambitious in I know past relationships I've had men that aren't comfortable with it.
[12:52]And so to me, this was definitely a narrative not to put down exploit friends by to just have a bigger picture and conversation that hopefully women can relate to and hopefully men maybe examine themselves a little bit more.
[13:07]Interesting, we will not throw any of your ex boyfriends under the bus.
[13:13]Awesome, I did really like it maybe it's because in part I come at this from the mom perspective as well, but I did really like the influence of the her parents of harper's parents is another one of the under one of the influences that she is under and her desire to please them to help them with their in.
[13:33]To see what she can do for their financial situation which I know sums up I really love the ending and everything not to give it I won't give it anyway, but anyway, just how it feels to be growing up as a young adult sort of coming into the world and.
[13:48]Listening to your parents, but listening to yourself and that crucial time of life when you have to sort of waiver back and forth between you know the kipsey and actual and whatever else so.
[13:59]Tell me about that and sort of the role of the role of parents and and all of that from your vantage point.
[14:05]I feel like for harper she's somebody who really wants to do well by everybody around her definitely sort of that people please are mentality and I think that really shows with her parents is wanting so badly to make them proud and make them feel.
[14:23]like they know what she's doing she's got her head on straight she sort of making these steps in her career and in the beginning of the book I feel like when she was telling her parents a lot about her job.
[14:37]I love just having her parents be characters that just didn't quite understand what was going on but wanted to be supportive because I do think that is an experience a lot of people go through.
[14:49]especially with you know there's lots of new jobs in this digital age that I know my mom is still sort of wrapping her head around people get paid to do that and wait what is the job title.
[15:02]And so I wanted to show that the distance of also generationally her parents having no idea what an influencer was and kind of no idea of how their daughter was going to be helping but excited to support.
[15:16]And to me, I think a lot of people and children do really want to make their parents proud and I especially think that there are pressures if you go to college and especially if your parents have invested in any portion of your college that you want to show them that it was worth it there's a reason I have a degree and making steps in my career.
[15:40]And I think in your early 20s it's such a complex time you have sort of the media telling you things you have your own hopes and dreams you have family you're also comparing yourself to your friends and I do think that it becomes complicated and.
[15:58]I wanted to show what that looked like for her and what it meant for her to kind of feel confident in her decision but not really be sure but also wanting her parents to feel proud of her but also looking at her peers next to her and wondering you know is this the right move so.
[16:16]I really appreciated that the family aspects because I do think that for me it was something I really relate to so I wanted to write something that you know hopefully other people can see themselves into amazing and tell me a little more about your writing experience of the book.
[16:34]So a lot of people don't know that I've been someone who's loved writing for a really long time it says in my author bio on my fondest memories is going to the library with my late dad he is what somebody who was very frugal and so we actually never really purchased a book for a really long time like it was just very very rare and.
[16:56]So as soon as I ended up getting a library card and sort of going with him that's also in tandem when I began writing and I would write these fun little stories.
[17:06]My mom actually came to New York for my book launch party and brought me my first ever published quotes around published book.
[17:13]And there's when I was in first grade and she brought it to me and it's like look, this is actually the first book that you wrote and so it's always been something that I love to do and.
[17:22]Kind of in professionally in my career I've had a lot of writing jobs and so to me in 2020 is when sort of the story begins with this book and that's when I had the idea to write under the influence and it was during COVID when.
[17:39]I had watched like 700 hours of Netflix and I was quarantined alone and just kind of needed to make use of myself I felt extremely lazy and I think was probably mentally going through a lot of things as most people were.
[17:56]in time it was really never anything that I had like a master plan with it was never something that I was sitting there writing going oh this book is going to get published one day it was really just something to take up time during.
[18:11]quarantining by myself with my dog and during that time I would write a few chapters I would send them to my best friend.
[18:20]She would sort of you know cheer me on say she really liked them so I just kept going and from there you know I think I probably got 50 pages in and that's when I started to really believe that it was going to be something.
[18:34]from that moment on it was very tunnel vision that okay this isn't like a hobbyist thing this is not a passion project like this will be on a shelf one day and from there just kept being really motivated and just kept writing things like two I am three I am you know.
[18:51]time felt like it only exist during that time and from there I just was fortunate enough that an agent ended up hearing about the book that I was writing and reached out and I at one point got to meet with my current team and it was wonderful and even on book tour I had a lot of people saying.
[19:10]And so the cool that you know you published a book and you're a first time author and I always like to be so transparent about it because it really was just something that I was kind of like fussing with and playing with and during COVID and now.
[19:23]it's something that I feel so proud of and to me I think it's just such a good lesson and those little hobbies that you have or something that you just want to try out and you're a little bit nervous or anxious you know I don't have the knowledge.
[19:36]that you should definitely try it and pursue it because you just never know where it could go so interesting.
[19:42]I love that well good for you I'm glad something so positive came out of COVID for you you know the pandemic yeah definitely who were influencers that influence you.
[19:52]I think that's a great question to me I try to be really mindful about the people that I follow one that I like a lot her name that.
[20:00]is Victoria Brown.
[20:01]She hosts the real pod.
[20:03]And I love the way that she shows up on So5,
[20:06]personally, I've never met her in real life.
[20:08]But her content, I love that she talks a lot about body image
[20:13]because to me that's something for women
[20:15]that is really, really important.
[20:16]And her demographic is definitely like early 20s,
[20:20]I would say to early 30s.
[20:22]And I love that she has grown a following talking
[20:26]about her body.
[20:28]And she basically kind of began her career
[20:31]by showing her photo-shopped photos,
[20:33]like showing photos that she posted
[20:35]by at one point on Instagram
[20:37]and then showing the actual real photo that she took
[20:41]and sort of the difference.
[20:43]And then ended up just kind of putting herself on blast
[20:47]about it and just saying like I'm tired of photo shopping
[20:49]and I'm tired of feeling this way.
[20:51]And now she continues to make content like that.
[20:54]And I think it's great and it's really refreshing.
[20:57]Another similar is Sammy Clark.
[20:59]She had a really large weight loss journey
[21:02]that she went through and she kind of documented it
[21:04]for everybody on social media as well.
[21:07]And those two women I think kind of stand out to me
[21:10]just because the way they show up is really genuine
[21:15]and authentic.
[21:16]And I know those words are sort of like so saturated
[21:19]in the influencer industry.
[21:20]But I do feel like when I consume their content
[21:25]and when I see the things that they're posting,
[21:27]it feels to me that they are really there
[21:30]to share a story, to make people feel a little bit less alone.
[21:34]And I appreciate that.
[21:37]Amazing.
[21:39]Do you think that influencers have to be selling something
[21:43]to be influencers or are they influencers just emotionally?
[21:47]Like what makes an influencer 100%?
[21:50]I know not that you have to be an expert.
[21:52]I know you wrote fiction, did all of that,
[21:53]but I don't know.
[21:54]What do you think?
[21:55]I think there are a few probably different types of influencers.
[21:58]I think you have influencers in terms of,
[22:03]I, for example, a fashion influencer.
[22:05]Like I wear outfits, I tag all of them
[22:08]and I make some type of commission off of what you buy.
[22:11]And then I think you have influencers that are more,
[22:14]what you might call content creator.
[22:16]Where it's like travel, I show you different places,
[22:19]I post it on whatever social platform.
[22:22]And it's not as like transactional, I would say.
[22:25]And then I think you have influencers also who are on TikTok
[22:29]and that they're sharing maybe their dating story
[22:32]of New York City and every single day,
[22:34]you know, when they're done going on a date,
[22:37]they hop on, they tell you about it.
[22:39]And they have a huge following all from just the fact
[22:42]that they're kind of opening up this crazy dating scene
[22:45]of New York City.
[22:46]So I think there's so much to be discovered
[22:50]in the industry within itself.
[22:52]I think there's so many categories
[22:54]and what I find really interesting
[22:56]is we've only created sort of one name for all of them.
[23:00]Like we've created, there's such a spectrum
[23:02]from like someone who's gone on the bachelor
[23:04]and bachelor at to somebody who's documenting,
[23:07]you know, their garden in Brooklyn.
[23:09]And yet all of these people have just the same job title.
[23:13]There's really no other industry
[23:14]that has such a wide spectrum,
[23:16]but we all just share the same title.
[23:18]So I'm excited to see in the future,
[23:22]like what, how the naming convention sort of changes
[23:25]and how we start to interact
[23:27]and label these different occupations
[23:30]because to me, they are quite different.
[23:32]Yeah, that's true.
[23:34]We know like the biggest celebrities
[23:35]for my kids are the YouTubers, you know?
[23:38]Oh my God, there's a YouTuber.
[23:40]I'm like, who is that?
[23:41]I don't know, anyway, they freak out.
[23:42]Of course, but anyway, I love that.
[23:45]My boyfriend is a YouTuber.
[23:47]I said really?
[23:47]Get your kids now.
[23:49]Who's your boyfriend?
[23:50]I'll ask Brett Conte.
[23:53]Okay, I don't know.
[23:54]That means nothing.
[23:55]Yeah, you have to, yeah.
[23:56]Not to let me know.
[23:57]I'm sure they probably know, you know,
[23:59]Mr. Beast and all of them.
[24:00]Yes. Like really, that's him.
[24:02]Yeah, your boyfriend is?
[24:03]No, no, no.
[24:04]No, no, no, no.
[24:05]No, no, no, no.
[24:06]My boyfriend's Mr. Beast.
[24:07]Oh my God.
[24:09]No, no, no, no, no.
[24:10]That man is so funny.
[24:12]He's, I just watched a video of him
[24:13]like shredding a Lamborghini the other day.
[24:15]So I don't, I don't quite think we're compatible
[24:18]because I don't know if I, if I'd be able to,
[24:21]to watch that.
[24:22]Okay, I'll ask them afterwards.
[24:24]So what are you working on next?
[24:26]What is your next project?
[24:28]Really, I've just spent so knee deep
[24:31]and under the influence.
[24:32]I mean, this is my first time doing any of this.
[24:35]And there's no sort of guideline or playbook
[24:38]on how you do it.
[24:39]So I've been just learning so much about how to promote a book
[24:42]and how to get people excited about it.
[24:45]Goals for me would be a single Hollywood adoption of the book.
[24:48]I think would be incredible.
[24:50]I've had a lot, a lot of people tell me already, you know,
[24:54]this, this is going to be a movie.
[24:55]I can see it as a TV show.
[24:57]So that would be incredible.
[24:59]And then in terms of writing,
[25:01]I would love the opportunity if presented
[25:03]to revisit these characters and their journeys.
[25:07]I think there's a little bit more story left to be told
[25:09]for the cast of the greenhouse.
[25:12]And I would be really excited to tell it.
[25:14]Amazing.
[25:15]Awesome.
[25:16]Any advice for aspiring authors?
[25:18]I think just follow your gut.
[25:21]I, you know, when I reflect back on my writing journey,
[25:25]so much of it was really personal and emotional.
[25:29]It'd be on just the fact of like learning about publishing
[25:31]and learning about the industry.
[25:33]It was so much about kind of facing a mirror
[25:36]of my own self doubts and my own confidence.
[25:38]And especially when you're just beginning,
[25:41]I mean, I've worked almost 10 years in the marketing world
[25:44]and like had worked myself way up
[25:46]into being like head of marketing for companies.
[25:49]And now with me being an author,
[25:51]it's like I've knocked way, way, way down.
[25:54]I'm sort of like an intern in this publishing world.
[25:58]And so I think just following your gut
[26:00]and being okay with learning and being uncomfortable
[26:03]and just knowing like, hey, I have a book
[26:06]that's being published and I absolutely learned
[26:08]everything one step of the way and Google things
[26:11]and like actually bought books called,
[26:13]what to do before and after the book deal
[26:15]and just learned about it.
[26:16]So I think if you have an idea and you're passionate,
[26:19]just continue doing it and don't sort of let your demons
[26:22]and self doubt get in the way.
[26:25]And now that you have been through this process,
[26:27]at least the beginnings of it,
[26:28]is there something you wish you'd known the most
[26:33]about even book launch or book marketing
[26:35]or like just some even tiny thing
[26:39]that might help somebody out?
[26:41]I think it always marketing your book earlier than later
[26:45]is great and it's not to say it's in the minute
[26:48]I got the book deal I was already so excited to share.
[26:50]But I think just generally always marketing it sooner
[26:54]than later and I also think something I kind of learned
[26:58]along the way is about just asking for what you want.
[27:02]I think a lot of people end up being really shy
[27:04]about things and if they want to share the book with someone
[27:08]or if they want to be on somebody's podcast
[27:10]or if they want someone to write a review,
[27:13]I've just gotten really comfortable
[27:14]with sort of asking for the things that I want.
[27:17]Obviously in a polite way and not inappropriate,
[27:19]but just oh, you enjoy the book things so much.
[27:21]Like it would mean so much if you could go on good reads
[27:23]and share your experience with it.
[27:26]And I think people forget that and especially
[27:28]I think a lot of women sometimes feel worried
[27:32]about asking for things.
[27:33]So just feeling comfortable with that.
[27:35]Amazing.
[27:37]Well, no, this has been so interesting and influenced by you
[27:40]and you're creative words and stories and ideas.
[27:45]And I really appreciate the time.
[27:47]Thank you for coming on the podcast.
[27:49]Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
[27:51]And thanks for doing an event.
[27:52]Did we switch up?
[27:53]That was awesome.
[27:54]Yes, it was so amazing.
[27:56]You have the cutest book shop.
[27:57]Oh my gosh, I loved it so much.
[27:59]And your team was so incredible.
[28:00]They were so kind.
[28:01]Oh, good.
[28:02]I'm glad I love hearing that.
[28:03]Awesome.
[28:04]All right, congratulations.
[28:06]Thank you.
[28:06]OK, bye-bye.
[28:09]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[28:11]Don't have time to read books.
[28:12]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[28:15]and at Moms.
[28:16]Don't have time to read books.
[28:17]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[28:20]and sign up for my virtual book club
[28:21]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:24]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[28:26]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[28:28]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:30]for providing this fantastic intro
[28:31]and now trim music.