Stephanie Land, CLASS: A Memoir of Motherhood, Hunger, and Higher Education
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes.
[0:34]It's a B-Classes.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at
[0:43]11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Stephanie Land is the author of class.
[1:05]And memoir of motherhood, hunger, and higher education.
[1:08]Stephanie is also the author of The New York Times Bestseller Made, hard work, low pay,
[1:13]and a mother's will to survive, called Testimony Worth Listening to by The New York Times,
[1:17]and was inspiration for the Netflix series made.
[1:20]Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Guardian, The Atlantic, and many other
[1:23]outlets.
[1:24]Her writing focuses on social and economic justice and parenting under the poverty line.
[1:28]She's a frequent speaker at colleges and national advocacy organizations.
[1:32]Welcome Stephanie.
[1:33]Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss your
[1:36]latest book, Class and Memoir of Motherhood, Hunger, and Higher Education.
[1:41]Thank you.
[1:42]Thanks for having me.
[1:43]Of course.
[1:44]Can you just give a quick synopsis for readers who have not read this book yet?
[1:48]I don't know how they've missed it so far.
[1:50]I'm kidding.
[1:51]They probably already read it.
[1:52]But just to give a quick synopsis of what came after made and why class and why now,
[1:58]and how did, you know, I know you write a lot about the writing of made which is so
[2:02]cool to read about, but just tell everybody about this book.
[2:05]Well, so made kind of drops off right as we got to Missoula, much like it ended in the
[2:11]series.
[2:12]And so this book begins about a year and a half later, and I'm beginning my senior year
[2:18]college and my daughter is starting kindergarten.
[2:23]And so it is a very tight timeline in a sense that it just goes from the, it follows
[2:31]that academic year because a lot happens that year.
[2:35]Yes.
[2:36]Yes.
[2:37]Yeah.
[2:38]You had a big year.
[2:39]Yeah.
[2:40]One piece of it, I mean, there were so many pieces I really loved about this book.
[2:43]But one part was your, discovering your own love of writing as we're reading your writing
[2:51]about it.
[2:52]So there was one part with the, your teacher and the MFA and how, when you first got to
[2:58]campus, you said, I assisted my writer's self with my presence on campus writing the
[3:03]real writing that mattered was meant to be done without cartoons blaring in the background
[3:07]and someone asking for pancakes.
[3:09]I want to put that like up on my bullets and words that were, but then you really get
[3:13]into what makes things powerful to read about.
[3:17]And can I read this passage about Deborah and what she said, okay, I filled my notebooks
[3:22]with gems Deborah doled out to us in class.
[3:24]One day she said, the stories you choose to tell are the stories that make up who you
[3:28]are.
[3:29]They sent me with such poignancy that I almost didn't want to hand in the story I'd written
[3:32]about being miserable on the flight to Paris to visit my mom for six weeks.
[3:36]But that is so apt, right?
[3:39]What, what makes stories real and then later when you get there and you tell her about
[3:44]the book that's going to be made and she's like, Stephanie, this is going to be a book.
[3:48]This is going to be a movie.
[3:49]Don't you see how this needs to be a book and you said a book about cleaning houses.
[3:53]I wanted to laugh, but I couldn't seeing how serious Deborah was.
[3:56]This is, she said, and started to read it again.
[3:59]So cool.
[4:00]Tell me about that whole experience, your relationship with Deborah, like learning to write
[4:04]this way and finding your voice really.
[4:07]Well, I, so Deborah, I took a few classes with her and I really admired her just for her
[4:15]the way that she talked, you know, like the, her, her ability to tell a story and she did
[4:22]it all the time.
[4:24]It was, it was fantastic to kind of be in the presence of someone who was able to speak
[4:30]with such authority while, you know, going through this whole story arc and, and so I,
[4:37]but I also learned to really appreciate her just kind of like knowing about things like,
[4:43]it's almost kind of witchy.
[4:48]Like she told me, she told me recently that she, in her mind, she predicted that I was about
[4:54]to meet my husband, but she didn't tell me because she knew that I wouldn't believe her.
[5:01]But she's like, she's just a really incredible, sensitive person and it's, it's really unique
[5:08]to have someone like that in, you know, in class with you, especially as an instructor.
[5:15]And so I just, I kind of like followed her around and signed up for her classes even though
[5:22]like she was teaching a genre that I, I don't really write in and then I, you know, I,
[5:29]I think the college experience itself was just trying to find these little pockets of, of empathy
[5:35]and familiarity and, and acceptance.
[5:38]Wow, it's amazing.
[5:40]You have another section that I literally like underlined 50 times and couldn't even decide
[5:46]which part to even start reading because all of it is just so poignant and amazing.
[5:51]I just love the way you write.
[5:53]Hold on one second, let me find this one passage.
[5:57]Okay, tell me what you think about all this.
[5:59]You said, only grateful people who followed the rules ran any chance of being heard.
[6:04]My anger had no use or value, it didn't get me anywhere, so I had no choice but compliance.
[6:10]Immediate acceptance of any shitty situation was what most people seem to mean by resilience
[6:16]and they needed poor people like me to be that way.
[6:18]Otherwise, my suffering would be too visible to ignore and they would have to deal with their
[6:23]feelings about that, whether helplessness or responsibility.
[6:26]If people were made too aware of our suffering like knowing what Amelia ate for dinner every night
[6:31]or that we shared a bedroom and if we were deemed innocent or undeserving of that suffering,
[6:35]then those people might feel the need to help out in some way.
[6:38]It was easier for a lot of people to imagine how strong and high functioning I was
[6:42]as opposed to how desperate and on the edge of disaster we really were.
[6:47]And then you say resilience is a flag we poor people could wave to gain that trust.
[6:51]If we proved ourselves time and time again, people nodded in approval.
[6:55]And then you said I've spent so much of my life pretending not to be angry and I'm not doing that
[6:59]anymore.
[7:00]Yes, beautiful.
[7:01]This is powerful writing here, it's really amazing.
[7:05]Tell me how you think about these things, how you feel about these things.
[7:09]Now that it's out in the world, do you feel a rallying cry around your message?
[7:14]Because this is movement making types of features here, you know?
[7:20]Yeah, I kind of call that, that's the soapbox section.
[7:24]Yeah, I think it was, I read an interview or something by, I mean, Neifield and I
[7:33]feel like she wrote the book except for my podcast.
[7:36]Yeah, and she talked about, she compared the term resilience to just acceptance.
[7:43]And just that's what it really is.
[7:45]And I realized like, well, wow, yeah, that's what it is.
[7:52]I have been a public speaker for five years.
[7:55]And I end up speaking for a lot of nonprofits.
[7:58]And the term resilience is, I think, was really popular, you know, toward the end of the
[8:04]Obama administration.
[8:05]And it became kind of like this catch all phrase that was assigned to marginalized populations.
[8:12]And I started to see it as resilience training, because not only are we told to kind of sit down
[8:20]and shut up and just be grateful.
[8:22]It was also, I just people expected me to be superwoman.
[8:29]And I don't know how many times people told me, like, I never have to worry about you
[8:36]because I know that you're fine.
[8:38]And I know that you're doing okay.
[8:39]And I know that you're strong.
[8:41]And I didn't have the heart to tell them like, well, actually, you should be worrying about me.
[8:46]Like, I would really appreciate that, because I didn't want to, I guess I didn't want to kind of like
[8:52]destroy this facade that they had or like this imagery that they had.
[8:56]I didn't want them.
[8:58]I never wanted anyone to be concerned, you know, about my children, because that is a very scary
[9:06]situation, you know, if, if especially government systems start to become concerned about a child's
[9:13]welfare, then that's where things get really scary, really fast.
[9:17]So I avoided that possibility at all costs.
[9:20]And that meant playing the part as far as being the person that people expected me to be.
[9:27]And then what would happen away from all the people?
[9:31]Oh, I, I say it in the book.
[9:34]I had this mantra that was just kind of like, you must not allow yourself to fall apart.
[9:39]And that was, that was an actual thing.
[9:41]I mean, there, there were times that if I allowed myself to cry, then I would just be crying
[9:46]all the time, because things felt so impossible.
[9:49]And just things like, I, but I didn't even have a moment to process anything let alone cry about
[10:00]And just how exhausted I was every year when school started, I just, I referred to it as a whole new level of exhaustion, because that's just, that's just what it was, and I kind of had to like brace myself for not sleeping very much.
[10:16]Oh my gosh, I have to say, I mean, I know, I knew what happened because of made and everything else, but reading this, I was like, I don't know if she's going to be okay.
[10:27]I'm like, this is structured, like, I don't see the way out of this. There are these things and like, how's she going to deal with this and this and you know, you painted quite a picture of like, okay, on the outside, but like, how is this going to work out?
[10:42]Like, is it going to work out and it's something that I feel like so many people share this external, not bravado, but just, and I see what you're saying about government reasons.
[10:54]But people do it for far less important reasons, right? Just the, the mask when really it's like, there are some structural reasons here why this is a massive struggle.
[11:05]Yeah, yeah, I, I kind of purposely wanted to stress people out.
[11:10]Thank you so much.
[11:13]Well, that was one thing that I heard about the Netflix series was like, oh, it's really hard for me to watch because like, it just stresses me out so much like she's doing all of this math and like, I don't know if she's going to make it and like just great.
[11:30]I like, I think, you know, the more that any kind, any form of media or, you know, art or either visually or written like that it can evoke this feeling of what it really feels like to be on the edge of extreme housing insecurity and not being able to eat and losing everything.
[11:56]Especially, you know, like I am obviously I'm a white person telling the story. And so to some people it would be unexpected that I would be like on on edge like that just because it's not really the story that well anybody is able to really tell, but it's like you don't expect it to be from a person who grew up middle class and that is now like in college.
[12:21]It felt it was really important to I don't know how many times I had to edit the start of a sentence or a chapter that was just like, come on, we got to go, come on.
[12:30]I think like there's like three or four still in there.
[12:37]Oh my gosh, I read the New York Times piece, New York Times piece about, you know, the after effects and how people now assume you can do whatever and like, you know that you're still the effects of the book deal and the movie and everything on your day to day life and what people think versus what life is actually like.
[12:58]And then of course that's all in the paper. So how do you feel about this level of and it's one thing to write a memoir where you control the narrative right and you control what to put in versus what people are taking out of it or the stories being told.
[13:12]How are you feeling about that sort of public private thing.
[13:16]In the case of the New York Times profile. I mean, I had Ron and I talked for, I think he spent a total of like 10 hours with me. So like I had absolutely no idea what he was going to choose to focus on because he had a lot of a lot to choose from.
[13:35]Really pleased with what he did and how he wrote about me and and that he chose to focus on just how hard it was to purchase a house with, you know, the type of income that I have coming in.
[13:51]But I learned through him that that I think people fought or assumed that I had made like millions of dollars from this Netflix series and that was news to me.
[14:06]But then like once I started to think about it and like, Oh, that kind of makes sense.
[14:13]That's why people are asking me for like loans and donations and like assuming that I have all this money to donate to churches and and so it's it was nice to have like this readjustment of or just like this like knowing what people thought about like how successful I actually was.
[14:35]And you know, in truth, it's it's still, I mean, I'm still working my ass off all the time. So, but I don't think I'm ever going to not do that, but it's still because of need at this point.
[14:49]What are you working on now. Oh, well, I mean, right now I'm just trying to stay sane through book tour. So that's my main job right now.
[14:57]My first event is tonight. And then I don't think we're going to be done until the end of November. So my gosh. Yeah, I mean, there's some outliers in December, but between book tour and public speaking like I'm pretty busy.
[15:12]It's definitely not a job I have expected to have.
[15:16]No, that being a writer translated to talking to people. So how do you feel about having to talk to people.
[15:22]But it's not a natural thing for me to do. I usually avoid that situation. So it's, but I mean, I have learned some ways to cope.
[15:39]You know, like I recently discovered beta blockers. Those those are amazing. I do have, you know, I have mental I mental illness anxiety and PTSD and and those kind of rule my life and in ways that I'm still learning about so it was really important to me to be active in advocating for myself, especially on book tour.
[16:04]I thought in some social media post you were talking about leaders later diagnosed autism or something. Did I know that's my husband. Yeah. Yeah. So he did not know.
[16:15]No, he trying to like sum this up.
[16:19]He was in the military for 10 years and just I think it's common for late age diagnosis of well identification of autism. So for people in their 40s and and above.
[16:35]And when, after we got married, we kind of decided that we wanted to try and have a child together. And after the first miscarriage I had, I had four in a year, it became really obvious that he he just didn't know how to validate or, you know, really empathize and I knew he wasn't an asshole.
[17:00]Like a jerk or anything. And I'm just like, I think, I think you might be autistic and like, and so I kind of finally convinced him to go and get an evaluation or something done and and so he was identified with autism. That was the beginning of 2021.
[17:19]And so it's still new and it's still something that I would say heavily affects our relationship just because I I'm kind of the antithesis of of an autistic brain.
[17:35]Because I speak and and and live in emotions. Well, how lucky is he that you were not just like, Oh, I guess he is just an asshole.
[17:46]I mean, so many most people would just be like, great look what I got myself into.
[17:51]No, no, he's a really, he's a really good guy. He's very kind and he's very nice and he's taken care of everything in my house right now. So
[18:01]That's amazing. You didn't mention the four miscarriages that you just referred to and I am so sorry for the emotional toll that that undoubtedly took and having to go through that experience.
[18:13]And while you do share so much with us in the book, you write about that in the afterward. I think in the acknowledgements or something.
[18:22]Or just because it came later like why I don't know. I guess time was why tell it there. Did you think about writing more about it.
[18:30]Oh, and the acknowledgements. Oh, I think that's because I was acknowledging my friend Carrie who is currently sharing this hotel room with me.
[18:38]She's taking shower actually. But I didn't have friends for a long time. I felt like I, since I couldn't give back to a friendship, then I couldn't be the one who was always taking.
[18:51]And so, I mean, this has been the topic of therapy for many years. But so I just, I closed down success was also extremely isolating. I lost a lot of really good friends just out of pure jealousy and caddiness.
[19:09]And so I, you know, after made came out and everything was going nuts. And I, whether that alone. And, and it was, it was so hard. And it took me a long time to really learn how to have friends and carry.
[19:28]Slid into my DMs at the beginning of 2020. And she was about to sell her book. And I had just sold my second one. And, and we just became really close friends really quickly. And, and so I, I don't think I would have lived through 2020 without her.
[19:48]So, I don't, I don't say that lightly. Like grief is, is, is a wall up for me. And it's, it's still like I still haven't really fully grasped what it really did to me.
[20:00]person. And so, yeah, she, she was there. So, and then, you know, that grew to my writing group
[20:07]formed. We first called it the Not Writing Club and then rebranded ourselves as
[20:12]sulky bitches and and some of them came up for my book event tonight and we had dinner together
[20:19]last night. And so it's been really, it's been an incredible part of of my life, like mid 40s,
[20:27]you know, to finally have really close friends that, you know, I just, I don't think I've
[20:34]ever really had that in my life. So, yeah, so I brought up a miscarriage is just because she was there
[20:41]for, for at all. Oh, that's really beautiful. It's very a friendship. I do think there's something
[20:48]instantly recognizable in other writers. There's some like shorthand when writers meet and talk
[20:56]I don't know if it's that we all have anxiety disorders or what. But I think that's part of it. It's
[21:02]like that part of your brain that makes you think about things so deeply because if you weren't thinking
[21:06]about it deeply, you certainly wouldn't be writing about it. Do you really like you have like
[21:09]by definition, you are analyzing and observing and all of that. So, I don't know. I think the writing
[21:15]community being so supportive of each other for the most part is really wonderful of them.
[21:21]Yeah, I mean, writers are kind of an odd bunch. And we just kind of speak a different language.
[21:26]And especially in the group, it was just like, Oh, my daughter just like, did this and this and this
[21:34]and then one of us pipes in like that sounds like an essay. Great title. So, I mean, it was,
[21:42]and it's just like, I recognize that I was a writer when I was like 10. And I just kind of
[21:49]instinctively knew that it was a different form of person to just kind of process information that way
[21:59]and to want to record your life or to create stories. And so I kept journals as a daily writer
[22:08]for a long time. But yeah, I don't know if I've ever had like a group of close friends that weren't
[22:15]writers. Like, they just kind of the only people that really understand the chaos.
[22:23]Oh my gosh. Where do you want life to go now? Do you have any like giant dreams like
[22:30]giant? I know that's such a cliche question. But I don't know, you can do anything. You have
[22:35]proved yourself as a writer. You have all this attention on you right now. Like, what do you want
[22:40]to do with it? Were you going to go with it? Well, that's kind of the thing that my agent is
[22:45]wanting to know right now. It's crazy to me that I can't stop comparing the book writing process
[22:57]to pregnancy and having a baby because I feel like I am holding this newborn in the mesh diaper
[23:07]and like just birth to this thing. And they're just like, so when are you going to have another
[23:11]one? And it's like, no, it's fine that you weren't asking that specifically. So I think it's kind of
[23:21]funny, but it's also conversations that I'm having right now in like a serious way. So I'm very
[23:29]keen on this idea of having a trilogy. Like, you know, maybe it's, I need things to be tidy
[23:37]in an order. And so the three sounds pretty cool. There's, there's a lot that happened after
[23:44]class ended. The main thing that happened was I was able to get an apartment in low-income housing.
[23:50]And I had, it was a situation where my income didn't affect my rent. And it sounds like crazy
[24:00]to say this number, but my rent was $430 a month for this, you know, tiny little apartment,
[24:07]but it had like a washer and dryer. It had a bathtub, you know, like, and that changed everything
[24:12]for me. So that was how I was able to focus on writing. And, you know, I wrote with a newborn in my
[24:21]lap, but like that was how I started freelancing and then, you know, freelancing turned into an essay
[24:27]that went viral and, and the rest is kind of why I'm talking to you right now.
[24:35]I know. It's like crazy how everybody's life, like all those decisions, the sense of silly,
[24:40]but like, it could easily, the fact that any of us end up talking to each other that any of us
[24:46]are where we are is so unlikely, you know, that every connection, I don't know. Anyway,
[24:50]do you have any advice for aspiring authors aspiring? I, you know, the thing that I
[24:56]usually end up teaching and focusing on is the business of writing. And, and I think a lot of
[25:04]people do not view themselves as a business and do not think of themselves as something that they
[25:11]need to brand and market and have a separate account for and, you know, do taxes for. And it's just
[25:20]like, there's, you know, it's almost like a dirty word to talk about money when you're talking
[25:26]about art in general, but for me, that was, that was why I was working was I, I couldn't work
[25:33]for free. And so, but when it came time to like invoicing and, you know, putting money in the bank
[25:42]and then paying taxes on it and stuff, like I had no idea what I was doing. And, and so, you know,
[25:48]you're going to be a writer, you're not. Like, that's, that's up to you. But like, I would advise
[25:54]people like don't shy away from thinking of yourself as, as a business and, and, and really owning
[26:00]that. I mean, like, it was, it was empowering for me to, to get like an LLC and, and, you know, like
[26:08]I have a couple of employees. One of them is traveling with me on, on book tour. And like, I, I,
[26:15]I hated the term branding in the beginning, but like, but now it's, it's something that really makes
[26:21]sense. And, and so, but it's, I don't know. I, I think people don't like to admit that they're
[26:28]working on creating this brand and content based on that brand. And so that, you know, you are kind of
[26:34]a thing that is associated with a certain thing. And, but I, that has been huge part of building
[26:43]my life as a writer. Very, very important. Good to think about early. Hopeful. Yes. Yeah.
[26:49]Yeah. Get all the same URLs. Get them now. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Well, Stephanie, congratulations on
[26:57]class. So exciting. It was so good. And it's just impossible not to root for you in life. It's just like
[27:04]we, you take us through all of this. And I hope you can, you know, feel and hear that all of us
[27:10]out there who were just cheering you on, even though you don't know all of us, but now you know,
[27:14]you know what I mean. Hey, cute. Yeah, the response to this book has just been so amazing. I,
[27:20]I, I was scared. I was nervous. You know, I'm, I am angry in this book. And I am, you know,
[27:26]then having lots of sex with lots of people. And I was like, I was like, I'm going to think about
[27:32]there's one. And the, the response is then like really amazing.
[27:40]Sex and books never turns people away. This is like, you know, one of those things. I think
[27:44]people generally tend to like that. I'll just throw that out there. All right. Good luck with all
[27:50]your events. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of moms. Don't have time to read
[27:58]books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books.
[28:03]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[28:08]of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the
[28:13]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[28:18]now trim music.