Jean Kwok, THE LEFTOVER WOMAN
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
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[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
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[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Jim Kwok is the author of The Left of Her Woman and Novel.
[1:06]She's a repeat guest on mom's don't have time to read books.
[1:09]And is in New York Times an internationally bestselling author of Searching for Silvie Lee,
[1:13]Girl in Translation and Mambo in Chinatown.
[1:15]Her work has been published in 20 countries and is taught in universities, colleges, and
[1:19]high schools around the world.
[1:20]She has been selected for numerous honors, including the American Library Association
[1:24]Alex Award, the Chinese American Librarians Association.
[1:28]The Chinese American Librarians Association Best Book Award, and the Sunday Times E.F.
[1:33]G Short Story Award International Short List.
[1:35]She is fluent in Chinese, Dutch, and English.
[1:38]Thank you, gee.
[1:39]I'm so happy to have you back on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss The Left
[1:43]Over Woman and Novel.
[1:44]So excited.
[1:45]I am so thrilled and happy to see you again, Zippy.
[1:49]Oh my gosh.
[1:50]Aw.
[1:51]And thank you so much for putting me in the acknowledgements.
[1:53]That was so sweet.
[1:54]Thank you.
[1:55]Of course, of course, of course, because you are such a force in the publishing world as
[2:01]is commonly acknowledged.
[2:03]And as a member of the author board of Zippy books, I have a kind of close-up view of how
[2:11]much you really genuinely care about being innovative, about helping authors, but making
[2:18]sure that attention goes to the worthy, attention, and resources, so we are all very grateful
[2:25]to you, Zippy.
[2:26]Thank you.
[2:27]Thank you.
[2:28]That was so sweet.
[2:29]I told you this over Instagram, but as I was finishing the book, I got my first pedicure
[2:35]that I haven't gotten in an airport, and I can't in maybe a year or two, and only because
[2:40]my daughter was getting one and begged me to do it.
[2:43]Anyway, I was all the way close to the end, and I had to finish.
[2:46]And they were like, OK, go to get up and go to the dryer, and I was like, no, no, no, I need
[2:50]to just sit here, please.
[2:52]And then five minutes later, they came back, and they were like, would you like to get
[2:55]up?
[2:56]And I'm like, no, no, I have to keep reading.
[2:58]So I was just, I got so, so into it, and I didn't see it all coming, and I loved the
[3:06]way.
[3:07]And I mean, I just, the whole thing was great.
[3:08]It was really cool.
[3:09]It was really great.
[3:10]But then I just wanted to hear that, because that's, of course, what every author wants,
[3:14]you know, that the reader is so sucked in, that they're like, just leave me alone.
[3:19]Let me finish.
[3:20]Let me figure out what happened.
[3:21]And it's, you know, it's always, it's a challenge, especially since, you know, as you know,
[3:25]this book is about two mothers, two worlds, and one impossible choice.
[3:31]And so it's really, really hard.
[3:33]It was hard for me to figure out how to have an ending that would not be too much one
[3:39]way or another, that, you know, kind of emphasizes unity and motherly love, and is kind
[3:45]of unexpected, but yet earned.
[3:47]And so yeah, that was what I was trying to do.
[3:50]Wow.
[3:51]Maybe yes, go into what the book is actually about for other people now that I've,
[3:55]you know, got about it.
[3:57]Okay.
[3:58]Well, so the book is about a young woman in China who gives birth to a baby during the
[4:05]one child policy, and she's told the baby dies shortly after birth.
[4:10]She grieves terribly, but a few years later, she finds out that the baby had not died,
[4:16]but had been given away for adoption by her no good husband to a wealthy American couple
[4:24]for adoption.
[4:25]And when the book opens, Jasmine Yang is her name, Jasmine has followed her daughter
[4:32]to New York to get her baby back.
[4:34]And the book is told from two points of view from that of Jasmine, the biological mother,
[4:40]and that of Rebecca Whitney, the wealthy, adoptive mother who, you know, desperately, desperately
[4:48]loves her daughter.
[4:50]You have this whole subplot of Rebecca's attempt to acquire a manuscript by, like a basically
[4:56]like the Sandra Cisneros type author who like has a new amazing book coming out.
[5:02]And you reveal a lot of, you know, insider, well, theoretically insider talk about what
[5:08]it's like being left out of an auction.
[5:10]And what do you have to do to like get on this author's good side and her ticking her
[5:14]to what?
[5:15]I mean, there was so much stuff about publishing.
[5:18]And you, of course, are massive, best-selling author.
[5:21]Talk about where that came from.
[5:22]Did you see all that stuff related to your own books, like where, you know, just give
[5:27]me a little color on all of that?
[5:29]Well, it was so fun to write, right?
[5:32]That was totally fun because Rebecca Whitney is, she comes from old money.
[5:37]I did not mean to suggest that people are publishing all live in print houses and brown
[5:42]stones like Rebecca does, but you know, she is kind of the modern women trying to have
[5:49]it all and trying like all of us to balance success and ambition and love for her family.
[5:57]And like so many of us, she is judged so harshly, right?
[6:02]It's kind of what, you know, so much of what you do is about Zibi.
[6:05]It's about how, you know, we're kind of just killing ourselves, trying to be everything
[6:10]to everyone and somehow, you know, the judgment that's laid upon us can be pretty devastating
[6:18]and you never feel like you can do it all.
[6:20]You never feel like you have enough time or resources to give everybody all.
[6:25]And so Rebecca is indeed, you know, top brass at a publishing house and she goes through
[6:32]all the struggles that, you know, we do in publishing with competing for a top manuscript
[6:39]and, you know, dealing with having a limited budget and dealing with a thickal readership
[6:46]and she gets embroiled in an industry scandal due to some mistakes that she's made and her
[6:53]career is about to come tumbling down.
[6:57]So yes, all of that is happening while this whole other story is going on with her child.
[7:04]Yes.
[7:05]You even, you know, I won't give anything away, but just the trust that you have to develop
[7:10]or that you need in order to have a successful relationship with your author and how, as
[7:18]an editor or publisher, you have to have this sort of blind faith in whatever the author
[7:22]is telling you.
[7:24]But what if that leaves you astray?
[7:26]You don't know.
[7:27]No, that's right.
[7:28]That's right.
[7:29]And indeed, in the book, what happens, you know, where we know, find out right away
[7:33]with Rebecca, said, she trusted an author, the book took off, it was doing brilliantly
[7:39]nominated for everything, hitting every list, and then she found out that the author
[7:44]had lied.
[7:45]And, you know, that post down, not only the author, but everybody associated with it
[7:51]with the publishing house, her team and, you know, her Rebecca's boss is like, you've
[7:56]got to fix this.
[7:58]Whatever you do, you have to fix it, which is why Rebecca is desperate to land this
[8:03]other author, who she thinks, you know, will give her the, like, chop, she needs to move
[8:09]her imprint forward.
[8:10]But it is, you know, publishing is an incredibly competitive field for the authors, but
[8:16]also on the other side.
[8:17]I mean, you know about that city, you know, what is your experience, what do you, well,
[8:23]what do you?
[8:24]I mean, well, we're not, I don't know.
[8:28]I would never feel bad for being excluded from an auction.
[8:32]Like I feel like once books are going to go for the, and we can't play in that space
[8:36]where books are going for like a $1,000, like that's just not where we are as a boutique
[8:41]publishing firm, but, but it's a bummer, like to see a manuscript go and be like, oh
[8:46]my gosh, I wish I had had a chance to read that, that sounds like something that would
[8:49]have been at my alley.
[8:50]So, yes, you have that for sure.
[8:53]Tell me about the writing of this story and even where you were in your own life as you
[8:58]wrote it.
[8:59]Well, you know, of course, I mean, as someone who has a full career, that's, these are all
[9:05]issues that I deal with, right?
[9:07]So the Rebecca asked that of a juggling family and life and husband and kids and while
[9:15]really trying to do the function in a very high-powered field is a challenge that I understand.
[9:23]I remember when the kids were, you know, when I had my first baby and we took an international
[9:29]flight and my husband changed the baby's diaper on the plane and like, you should have
[9:36]heard those flight attendants, it was like the second coming, you know, they're like,
[9:41]very with some wonderful, I was like, uh, me, like, I changed the diaper too, but, you
[9:49]know, nobody cares, right?
[9:50]Nobody cares.
[9:51]Anyway, so, you know, that was Rebecca's story, but then Jasmine's, of course, is very
[9:57]much based on my own upbringing as...
[10:00]a Chinese girl in a very traditional family where women were not expected to grow up and go to college.
[10:09]I was very poor. We worked in a factory. I worked in a factory as a child in New York City of all
[10:16]things. And, you know, there was no expectation of, you know, so do an Ivy League college. No,
[10:23]it was really working the factory your whole life or go and marry if you're lucky, you know, find
[10:31]some man willing to marry you. And then you compare him sons and cook for him and clean for him. And
[10:36]so these were very important skills, which I utterly lacked in every way to be the worst. I still am.
[10:44]I was keeper, cook ever known to man. So, you know, they despaired of me. And I looked at those two
[10:52]choices. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to get a hard hard. Yes, look at her. That's actually
[10:59]what I wound up doing. But it was a long hard road from, you know, that rundown unheated apartment in
[11:06]Brooklyn and the factory in Chinatown to an Ivy League school. But I was glad that I had that
[11:13]escape route. But I knew so many people who didn't. And the one child policy in China was devastating
[11:20]families. You know, it was so many different ways. And so I knew those daughters who have been
[11:27]left or abandoned or given for adoption. But I also knew people who had adopted those daughters.
[11:32]I knew their story and their love as well. And so I always knew that this was a book I needed to
[11:38]write. Wow, my gosh. I know we talked about this with searching for Silvili in your background and
[11:45]just the unbelievable resilience and strength and drive that you had to go to not just an Ivy League
[11:52]school. You know, and so how did you back then like why? Where did it come from? That you're like,
[11:58]no, I'm going to go to Harvard. Like where? Where did that come from? You know, that's such an
[12:02]interesting question. I think that desperation and do a lot for you and the lack of talent in,
[12:10]you know, traditional women lead traits. There was no way I was going to be able to take care
[12:17]of a man because I, you know, opinionated and argumentative. And also a daydreamer. I was one of
[12:24]those kids that was always staring out the window instead of doing the practical things.
[12:29]I was supposed to be doing. So I, you know, people sometimes ask indeed, you know, how was it that
[12:34]you managed to get to Harvard, you know, with no, I mean, believe me, I did not go to any kind of
[12:42]extra classes or coaching or, you know, anything like that in terms of any tests or applications
[12:49]on that route. And I would always say, you know, I took it seriously. I knew that that was my way out.
[12:57]And, you know, Harvard, I set my sights on because he has indeed blind admission policies.
[13:03]So I knew it was one of the schools that if I got in, they would arrange it so that I could go,
[13:10]no matter how little my family could pay. And it was also the only school my parents had ever heard of.
[13:17]So I was like, okay, that would increase the chances being allowed to go. But I was serious.
[13:24]And I think there's a real difference between being serious and knowing you don't really have a
[13:30]safety net and kind of like wanting something and thinking, maybe I want to do it. I maybe I don't.
[13:35]And I don't know, you know, I mean, something I like to talk about is that I think that
[13:41]we have our short term happiness. And believe me, I am easily seduced by chocolate and movies and,
[13:49]you know, hanging out and lying on the couch instead of doing the things I need to do.
[13:54]But I have learned that there's long term fulfillment that comes from actually being serious
[14:02]and taking the time and taking the effort to do something well. And somebody said this to me
[14:10]recently that I don't remember who, but it was very wise. And it was like, it was that how good
[14:16]you're going to be at something is measured by how much you can tolerate being bad at it.
[14:22]And what that means is that like, if I want to learn to ice skate and I am terrible, terrible,
[14:28]but I can tolerate being terrible. And I keep at it. And I go on being terrible instead of being like,
[14:35]oh my god, I don't like this. I'm leaving. You know, because I wasn't great at school, you know,
[14:40]I like, I didn't speak any English. I almost flunked out, you know, there I was in the worst reading
[14:47]group. I remember wishing I could be with like the smart kids. And I wasn't, I think that if you
[14:54]can tolerate that being good. And sometimes you have to tolerate for a really long time. You know,
[15:00]really long, you know, you can become great. You can become great at it. Because if you're serious
[15:07]and you have the passion, I think you can really do anything. Wow, that was very inspirational.
[15:14]Thank you. That was great. Do you feel like you wanted just back to the book for a minute? Do you
[15:20]feel like you wanted Rebecca to be a likable character? Or did you want us to be questioning
[15:27]her and her personality? Did you want us like, how did you want the reader to feel about Rebecca?
[15:33]Well, I can tell you how I feel about Rebecca. I love Rebecca. I completely love Jasmine.
[15:44]As well. And that was the difficulty because this is an impossible situation with one child
[15:50]and two mothers. You know, when you are the author of a book, you have to be willing to have your
[15:56]characters make terrible, terrible mistakes. And they both do both Jasmine and Rebecca make
[16:03]terrible choices. And there are ways in which Rebecca's vision is limited. And that's a part of
[16:10]actually the big plot twist in the book that we see how limited her vision is in some ways,
[16:17]right? But she's doing her best. She's trying and she is at heart a really good person who's
[16:26]doing her best. And so I mean, I have had readers who, you know, can't Rebecca, can't Jasmine, you
[16:35]know, they tend to go one way or another or sometimes, you know, they love them both or they hate
[16:40]them both. But I'm really squarely in both camps. I think that they're both wonderful women.
[16:46]And in the end, you know, the, what I want the book to say is actually I want the book to emphasize
[16:53]unity over division. And that, you know, the most important thing is what these two women have in
[16:59]common. And that is their absolute love for that girl. And their willingness to sacrifice
[17:08]everything for the child. Interesting. I love it. I also really loved Anthony. And the
[17:15]childhood love sort of of Jasmine back home and how he was still wearing the bracelet when
[17:22]they got reunited. And oh my gosh. And just how you love that relationship in all its forms
[17:29]throughout the book. And I don't know, I was kind of rooting for him too.
[17:33]I'm glad. I mean, I love him too. I mean, I thought he's also flawed. And, you know, I kind
[17:39]of, I kind of love that first little cute and beat at the beginning when Jasmine and Anthony
[17:44]run back, run into each other again after all these years because Anthony was indeed her childhood
[17:51]best friend. And they had never had a relationship of any sort, but she was married off very young
[17:58]to someone almost really for money, you know. And so, you know, they, they see each other and
[18:04]he like kind of stalks off because he's like, wow, you know, you like, you fished me and you didn't
[18:11]like, you didn't care for me. And she's like, what? I don't know. You like two years old. But then
[18:16]indeed she catches a glimpse of a bracelet that she had given to him when he was 14 years old. And
[18:22]he still got it on. So what does that mean? Yeah. I loved that. All the times they would meet up
[18:30]and didn't know where it was going to go. And I don't know. I loved that element woven throughout
[18:35]as well. Which character came first for you when you were writing this? Jasmine or Rebecca?
[18:42]It's funny. I think actually they both came pretty much at the same time. But what's interesting
[18:49]is that I wrote them both in first person. So in the original track of the book, both Rebecca
[18:56]and Jasmine were written in first person. And then I felt I needed a little bit more distance
[19:02]from Rebecca. Also, that'd be easier for the reader to differentiate the two voices and so on.
[19:07]And so then I moved Rebecca into close third point of view instead. It's funny because, you know,
[19:17]I mean, Rebecca's white. I'm not. Jasmine's Chinese. I am Chinese, of course. But there were a
[19:23]lot of ways in which I had to really project myself into both characters. Like Rebecca's in the
[19:28]publishing world, you know, which is my world. It's a world I know really well. And, you know,
[19:34]kind of, you know, I love being in that world. I love the inner, dirt of the world. All the gossip
[19:42]that we share about, oh my gosh, did you hear what happened at the Frankfurt Book Fair this year?
[19:48]You know, who disappeared to hotel room together? Yeah, that kind of dishiness is just so fun.
[19:54]So that part of Rebecca's life actually came very easily to me. And the two of-
[20:00]Of course, Jasmine, I have a lot in common with Jasmine,
[20:03]with the attitude towards women and feeling oppressed
[20:07]and feeling like you don't have a voice.
[20:09]And Jasmine finally finds her voice
[20:12]because she loves her child so much
[20:15]that she decides to take action and break from her life.
[20:19]But Jasmine's whole life in rural China,
[20:24]I had to do a lot of research.
[20:25]I mean, interviewed a lot of people
[20:27]because I was born in Hong Kong, a big city in China,
[20:31]but I've never really lived in a rural village in China.
[20:34]And the book was written during the pandemic.
[20:36]There was no chance of me actually traveling there,
[20:39]which I'd like to do to do research.
[20:41]So, you know, both characters were really fun to write,
[20:44]but also very challenging in their own ways.
[20:47]Interesting.
[20:48]What are you working on now?
[20:49]I am, I do have a book too soon
[20:52]and it is a murder set at Harvard.
[20:57]So, yes.
[20:58]And I actually just spent the summer
[21:00]of traveling to Cambridge and Harvard,
[21:03]who, you know, just go through everything,
[21:06]go through wider the libraries.
[21:09]I've been interviewing people and do their,
[21:13]you know, all about the Adams House swimming pool.
[21:17]I don't know if you know, but there's a swimming pool.
[21:20]It's not there anymore, but it was there
[21:21]when I was a student where people would swim nude
[21:25]and all kinds of things would happen in that swimming pool.
[21:28]Wow.
[21:29]Yes, you knew.
[21:31]You knew, right?
[21:32]Who could expect this kind of thing?
[21:34]That's my new book.
[21:35]That's right.
[21:36]That's right.
[21:37]Not yet.
[21:38]Not yet.
[21:39]The leftover woman first.
[21:40]Sorry, I just talked about it.
[21:41]Yes.
[21:42]Well, no.
[21:44]Who have you been reading lately that you really like
[21:46]or what stories or books have you or even films
[21:49]or just things that you've been obsessed with lately?
[21:53]Oh, I guess with there's been so many wonderful books.
[21:55]Lately, and actually I'm writing an article for you city
[21:58]with a round of books.
[22:00]Oh, I'm going to get that to you.
[22:01]I'm telling them anyways, so many ways in which Zibi
[22:06]has an influence on our literary life.
[22:09]Now, but there are, you know, there's so many great books
[22:11]out, of course, like yellow faces, great, you know,
[22:15]publishing, dishy book that's out and everyone's reading
[22:19]right now tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.
[22:22]I absolutely loved.
[22:24]I read that book and I just would not put it down.
[22:28]I love some books by Zibi books like Hedge.
[22:32]Oh, thank you.
[22:33]That's the same.
[22:34]Earlier, I've got came up earlier this year by Jane Delury.
[22:37]And I think that that is just such a beautifully written
[22:42]kind of complex, but really fun to read book, you know,
[22:46]where you have relationships, you have love,
[22:50]you have romance, but you also have a mystery.
[22:53]And sometimes like, I think those are kind of the best
[22:56]types of books where you have all of this depth,
[22:59]but you still have this propulsive,
[23:01]clotted element to carry you through.
[23:04]I think that's a really beautiful book.
[23:06]And I loved, I'm actually Jane's author mentor
[23:10]and I love being in touch with her and talking to her
[23:13]about the process and what she was going through
[23:16]and all of that.
[23:17]Oh, my gosh, this is literally the first time
[23:20]someone's ever said that they have been reading a book
[23:22]over to my meeting.
[23:24]It was nice to meet you.
[23:25]Are you just started, right?
[23:27]I know just started.
[23:28]Yeah, it's very nice to meet you, yes.
[23:32]And Jane Jane is a beautiful writer,
[23:34]absolutely beautiful and hedge was beautiful.
[23:35]So yeah, give aspiring authors some advice.
[23:38]What advice would you have?
[23:39]What should they do?
[23:40]What should they look out for?
[23:41]How do they become you?
[23:43]Oh, well, I don't know if they want to be me,
[23:45]but I do, I think that one thing that's always very hard
[23:48]for writers to think about is, you know,
[23:51]when do I make changes?
[23:53]And when don't I make changes, right?
[23:55]You get so much advice and you also get pressure
[24:00]to make changes to your book.
[24:02]If your career goes to a certain place, right?
[24:04]We all start by writing for ourselves.
[24:07]But then if you want to make a career,
[24:10]you actually have to write for other people
[24:13]at the same time, right?
[24:14]So you have an agent, you have a publisher,
[24:17]everyone has an opinion and, you know,
[24:20]it's not true that we are always right.
[24:24]I think that we wish we were always right,
[24:27]but, you know, I have certainly benefited from advice
[24:31]and that there's been many, many times
[24:34]when the fact that I listened to advice
[24:39]helped the book tremendously.
[24:40]But when do you listen and when are you going astray?
[24:44]And I, what I always say is that I think we write out
[24:48]of passion, we write and that passion translates
[24:53]onto the page.
[24:54]Like in the leftover women, you know,
[24:56]the passion of mine that's on that page
[24:58]is my own experience as a Chinese woman
[25:03]and feeling like I wasn't heard and I wasn't seen
[25:07]and that wasn't allowed to be heard or seen.
[25:10]And that passion, you have to keep alive.
[25:13]It's like a flame that's in your work.
[25:16]And advice absolutely, listen to advice
[25:19]if you feel like it's taking you close to where you go.
[25:23]But it's better to have a creature that's maybe not typical
[25:28]but is vivid and alive and visceral and raw
[25:32]than to have a kind of courts that is perfectly proportioned
[25:36]but it's just lying dead on the page.
[25:39]And I think we know that, right?
[25:41]Sydney, when we read books, when you get a manuscript,
[25:44]you read it and you feel, oh, this is alive.
[25:47]You know, this is passionate.
[25:49]This is something I can, yeah, I can burn for.
[25:53]As opposed to something where you're like, yeah,
[25:55]it's got all the right characteristics
[25:58]but it doesn't do much for me.
[26:00]Only there is a way to bottle that sauce
[26:06]when something just works
[26:07]because it's hard to break down why.
[26:10]but you know it when it happens, right?
[26:12]You can, on both sides, reading, writing.
[26:15]It's just like love, right?
[26:16]It's just like chemistry.
[26:18]You go on a date and, you know,
[26:20]every you've done all the research
[26:22]and they seem totally fine
[26:24]and you've even done a zoom
[26:26]and they look like the picture
[26:27]and then you go on the date and you're like, whoa.
[26:30]Something like, whoa, yes, yes, yes, right?
[26:36]Sometimes you think, I don't know, but you feel
[26:40]like chemistry and you think, oh, well, okay.
[26:42]Well, actually, maybe, right?
[26:44]And it's indescribable and it's, yeah,
[26:47]it's very, very hard to predict.
[26:49]I love that relationships with books
[26:51]being like chemistry between when you're dating
[26:54]between people.
[26:55]That's really interesting.
[26:56]I like that a lot.
[26:57]Thank you.
[26:58]Jean, thank you for the leftover woman.
[27:01]Thank you for the propulsive,
[27:03]and for Danibel read that I found just totally immersive
[27:07]and I just love you and your story
[27:10]and your enthusiasm and your kindness
[27:12]and I'm just so glad we've gotten to know each other
[27:15]between books and all of that.
[27:17]Well, I feel the same way, Zibi.
[27:19]And I wanna thank you for being the incredible person
[27:22]that you are personally and professionally
[27:26]because, you know, we've connected also on personal issues
[27:30]and you have been so supportive
[27:32]and lovely in every single way
[27:34]and for what you do for us and for books and for authors.
[27:38]So thank you so much.
[27:39]Thank you.
[27:40]Thank you, thank you so so nice.
[27:42]Thank you.
[27:42]It's so great.
[27:44]Yes.
[27:46]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[27:48]Don't have time to read books.
[27:49]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[27:52]at Zibi Owens and at Moms.
[27:53]Don't have time to read books.
[27:54]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[27:57]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:59]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:01]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[28:04]for the Sound Editing.
[28:05]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:07]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.