Stephanie Kramer, CARRY STRONG
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes, it's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Stephanie Kramer is the author of Carrie Strong, an empowered approach to navigating pregnancy
[1:07]and work.
[1:08]Stephanie is a ten-year beauty industry executive today serving as the chief human resources
[1:12]officer at L'Oreal USA in New York City.
[1:14]She's an adjunct professor of management communication in the graduate business program at
[1:18]the Fashion Institute of Technology where she is also a member of the program's advisory board.
[1:23]She has been a featured speaker at several colleges and universities, including the
[1:26]Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania NYU and Harvard University.
[1:30]Hi, Stephanie.
[1:31]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read.
[1:33]books to discuss Carrie Strong.
[1:35]Of course.
[1:36]So great to be with you, Zippy.
[1:37]Thank you for having me.
[1:38]Of course.
[1:39]First of all, I feel like I need your web designer because you have the best website ever.
[1:44]He's great.
[1:45]She's an awesome human.
[1:46]You absolutely can have all the information.
[1:48]Really?
[1:49]Okay.
[1:50]We'll have to touch face after this.
[1:51]He's really good.
[1:52]I want you to talk about the book, but I want to just read this quote that you had on the
[1:55]site, which says, just because you carry something well doesn't mean it isn't heavy.
[2:01]Yes.
[2:02]I love that so much.
[2:03]And so many levels.
[2:04]Yeah.
[2:05]It's one of those things that you know, I think we all feel like even when I was writing
[2:09]the book, I wanted to be something that was lifting some weights off our shoulders.
[2:12]Yep.
[2:13]But it doesn't mean that it's not going to exist.
[2:15]So you know, it's just because you carry well doesn't mean it isn't heavy.
[2:18]That's right.
[2:19]And we don't have to always show up that way.
[2:21]You know, for our friends, for our family, for ourselves, sometimes it's okay to recognize
[2:25]there's some pressure.
[2:26]Yeah.
[2:27]There's pressure.
[2:28]What do you mean?
[2:30]Working and having kids and whatever.
[2:33]Where is the like carry strong for teens?
[2:35]Like I need that.
[2:36]I mean, the BS to this.
[2:38]Well, wait, let's back up.
[2:39]Why don't you tell listeners what carries strong?
[2:41]The book is about and also the accompanying company and mission and all of that because
[2:47]it's all wrapped up.
[2:48]Sure.
[2:49]Absolutely.
[2:50]So carry strong, which the full title is carry strong and empowered approach navigating
[2:53]pregnancy and work.
[2:55]It launched in May in 2023.
[2:57]So during the month of mothers, my first book was a real labor of love pun intended.
[3:03]And I wrote it over the past three years late at night.
[3:05]So I have a full time day job.
[3:07]I am also the mom of two young sons and a professor.
[3:11]And for me that I saw the advice I was often giving behind closed doors for my own experiences.
[3:17]Having a much bigger home in place, particularly in something as powerful as a resource
[3:22]like a book that you can read in private.
[3:24]You can share with someone.
[3:25]You can discuss if you want to or not or listen to it like our listeners.
[3:29]And so I wanted to create something that was comprehensive.
[3:31]But for something really specific, which was navigating pregnancy and work.
[3:35]So I started the first of four quantitative studies.
[3:37]And then I did over 200 interviews with amazing inspirations and icons.
[3:41]And the result is the book.
[3:44]Wow.
[3:45]So what are some of the takeaways that we should know?
[3:47]How can anyone survive that time of life?
[3:49]Yeah.
[3:50]Well, I think the big part of it is that there's a survival
[3:54]instincts that kick in, but it's also what you can do.
[3:56]And you can thrive and actually come out on the other side of it.
[3:58]And so many women shared this.
[4:00]But in hindsight, they want to thank themselves.
[4:03]And they're pick out a confidence boost.
[4:05]And they have so much pride in becoming a mother and a working mother.
[4:08]So within the book, there's two sections.
[4:11]One are these five principles that I really found from the research and the stories
[4:14]where helpful, no matter what phase you're in.
[4:16]And then the second part is actually to define the phases of pregnancy and work as not
[4:22]just when you have a baby bump or not just, you know, maternity leave, but
[4:26]actually from way before you think about it and even college age women or even
[4:30]teenagers, it allowed the conversation to happen earlier.
[4:32]And in fact, starts to lift off exactly that same kind of heaviness that you
[4:36]can be feeling.
[4:37]So the five principles are perspective, balance, community,
[4:40]communication and identity, which was by far the hardest chapter, right?
[4:44]Which one identity was hard identity was super hard.
[4:47]It was, I wrote it once I was finished with the whole thing.
[4:48]I think personally, it was the one that I grappled with the most.
[4:51]But so many women, their stories were so empowering that I wanted to be like a really
[4:55]pivotal one.
[4:57]And then the phases, which I think is really helpful for anyone either to be supportive
[5:01]of someone going through this or if you're in it right now or maybe this is long in your
[5:05]past or way in your future.
[5:08]So the BTTC, so before trying to conceive, you know, what considerations, considerations
[5:12]you're making for your places of work or the type of job you might want to have or what
[5:16]you want for your life right now, trying to conceive.
[5:19]So one of the studies I did was one out of two women said that trying to conceive not yet
[5:23]being pregnant at work had an impact, which I think for anyone who has children, they
[5:28]obviously, it's like a hundred percent, but it's a really big deal because we don't
[5:31]talk about it.
[5:32]We talk about it in little pieces, you know, fertility impacts or pregnancy and loss impacts,
[5:37]but that can be a really long time.
[5:39]Someone could be pregnant at work for five years and not yet a happy baby.
[5:43]Then there's the private pregnancy, which instead of giving people, you know, there's
[5:47]the rules of visit at the end of your first trimester that you share or you have to share earlier
[5:51]if you have issues, but instead I just say like there's this private pregnancy of the hush
[5:56]and your public pregnancy of your push and when you decide it's up to you, why and how you need
[6:00]to share.
[6:01]Then the push, the public pregnancy, and I call it the push because a lot of people feel both the
[6:05]positive and challenging pressure around this very tiny get your stuff in order window that
[6:11]happens during pregnancy and it's also very physically visible for most people that are, you
[6:17]know, birthing people that are also carrying their child.
[6:20]And then the last part I call anticipating the great return, there's a few awesome resources
[6:24]for the great return or return to work, but for me it was really important how to bridge
[6:29]that with anticipating.
[6:31]So do a walk through of what your day is going to be like or have the conversation about
[6:35]what your job could be like when you come back while you're still in it or what resources
[6:39]you need, you know, private places to pump, but doing it ahead kind of helps to also take off
[6:44]some of that pressure during this really special time where you're super pregnant or you're
[6:49]on maternity leave with your baby.
[6:51]I think one of the things in particular that resonates I'm sure with so many people is that
[6:56]time when you're trying to get pregnant and going through the disappointment and going through
[7:00]all of the stuff and it's so emotional and the hormones and everything and yet there's no
[7:07]explanation for them.
[7:08]So you're in this crazy hormone world and expected to behave like normal and the secrecy.
[7:16]I mean, I talk a lot on this podcast about how the corrosive effect of secrets is at the heart
[7:21]of like most novels and books and I feel like that's it too at work when you have to keep
[7:26]such a giant secret.
[7:27]And during COVID people were like having babies you didn't even know there were one day they
[7:31]were just posted baby.
[7:32]It's like what?
[7:33]Yeah, totally.
[7:34]And it's funny because so many people, you know, that the how to tell my boss on pregnant was one
[7:39]of these huge pivotal moments that I talk about in the book and how to approach it in a different
[7:43]way but it's also it's like people think that there's going to be this horrible impact of
[7:48]their perception or their identity shift and what their boss is going to say and often at the
[7:53]end of it, the boss hopefully says something like, no, if you're half as good as an employee as you
[7:58]are, you know, being a mom, that's a lucky kid, but for women we feel it a lot and we're also
[8:03]really worried about our health at that time.
[8:05]It's you know, there's so many other factors are out of control and also private at the same
[8:10]time for sure.
[8:11]I remember when I was a very new mom and it was the summer and I was like in my house alone
[8:16]a lot of the time and I was like, this feels like not the right society to be having kids.
[8:22]It would have been so much better just to be able to have a kid and it's okay but things don't
[8:26]slow down for even a minute to allow you to have a totally different lifestyle with different
[8:31]hours and you know all the stuff that especially the beginning requires.
[8:35]Absolutely.
[8:36]Tell me more about why this identity chapter was hard for you.
[8:39]I would think it's so easy.
[8:40]Look at you, you're like, you know, you've got like a whole brand associated.
[8:43]Well, you know, I think for me it was, I had been writing this book so I have two sons,
[8:47]one's nine and one's five so I was writing the book with the pregnancy in my rear view
[8:53]here but I was giving advice to people and I was kind of trying to think about it and how to
[8:57]write it so that I expressed my own point of view.
[8:59]I expressed the research but I gave a lot of space to it because I think the one thing I was
[9:03]really deliberate with in the book is any of the stories or the advice is more to empower her
[9:09]or you know the environment around her versus saying like here's how you can think about your
[9:13]identity because for some people know they didn't feel a change at all and in fact they don't
[9:18]want to have any kind of perception.
[9:19]Other people are like I'm a completely different person and this you know I'm a metamorphosis
[9:23]happened during my pregnancy and it might also be that this happens right away or years later
[9:28]in hindsight so I think I just thought about it a lot for myself but then also how to make sure
[9:32]that I wasn't adding any other constraints on all the dimensions that we give to ourselves.
[9:37]All the labels we get to ourselves mom and I'm a sister and I haven't been employee and I'm
[9:42]all these different places so I was trying to kind of take that off.
[9:46]So why in the midst of your own busy life take time out to help all these other moms? Where is
[9:51]this coming from? Have you always been someone who helps other people? So you know this was such
[9:57]a really resonant topic personally but I also…
[10:00]who realized that there were so many people
[10:02]that were willing to share their voices and stories
[10:04]and didn't know how to do it.
[10:06]So I just, I majored in chemistry.
[10:09]So I'm a super new group.
[10:10]But on the other side, I've always been in marketing
[10:12]and like product development
[10:14]and I like bringing together different ideas.
[10:16]And for me, it was like crystallizing that together
[10:18]in one single resource but was so fueled
[10:21]by these most private personal moments
[10:24]that people were willing to share in order to help others.
[10:26]So yes, I felt that way.
[10:28]But I am so much more motivated by the fact
[10:30]that there are so many amazing humans out there
[10:33]that are willing to do that too, not just within the book
[10:36]but also that right now is a moment
[10:38]where we can flip the script.
[10:39]This is what, you know, the shift in our culture
[10:42]that needs to happen.
[10:43]So I think those two fueling things for me
[10:46]were like, okay, I can do this.
[10:48]I can write it between 11 o'clock at night
[10:50]and two o'clock in the morning
[10:52]because when I was reading the stories
[10:53]I really genuinely felt not alone
[10:55]which is exactly what I wanted to do with the book
[10:57]for so many.
[10:58]But also like, all right, if I can help to move the needle
[11:01]just a little bit, I'm gonna go for it.
[11:03]What are some of the stories
[11:04]that you're most excited about
[11:06]where that you felt helped you the most?
[11:08]I mean, I think so this week I was speaking to someone
[11:11]and it was a fantastic leader
[11:14]and the motion we're talking about with the self-doubt is real
[11:18]and one of the questions I asked any interviewee.
[11:20]So CEOs or Olympians or nurses, practitioners,
[11:25]physicians, I asked them five questions.
[11:28]I said, tell me a story about you
[11:29]and your pregnant work.
[11:30]What phase did this occur?
[11:31]Because I wanted to see how it lined up with the phases
[11:33]or advice to make sure I put it in the chapters
[11:35]which I know you appreciate.
[11:37]Then I think for me I asked, well, what advice do you have
[11:41]in hindsight?
[11:41]What advice do you wish you would have had?
[11:43]So I could tie together advice of others
[11:45]kind of in between the stories.
[11:47]And then the last question that I asked every person
[11:49]was who do you wanna think?
[11:51]And one person that sticks out in particular
[11:55]was she said myself.
[11:57]And so I was like, okay, that's a really cool story.
[11:59]Her story in the book is just a very simple thing
[12:02]advocating for a seat on a bus.
[12:04]Very simple pregnant request that I'm sure so many
[12:06]people can relate to.
[12:08]But that little moment was something that she recognized
[12:12]this boost in confidence that she needed to take care
[12:14]of both herself and also her child in that little moment
[12:17]was really powerful.
[12:18]So there's amazing stories from people
[12:21]throughout the book, but that's the one that right now
[12:23]is in my mind.
[12:24]So when people were thinking other people, myself, yes,
[12:29]okay, I can see that.
[12:30]Who else was a surprise to you?
[12:32]And were there people who thanked their bosses
[12:34]and were grateful for them and that that made the whole thing
[12:37]better or thinking more like their moms or across the board?
[12:41]There were, so I talked about in the book
[12:43]the community that you need to create.
[12:44]And obviously a lot of people think
[12:46]people closest in.
[12:47]So whether that's a partner or a family member
[12:50]or a best friend and then within work,
[12:54]a lot of people do, they think that boss.
[12:56]And if they had that boss and they're going to be that boss
[12:58]and if they didn't have that boss,
[13:00]then they also want to be that boss that can be someone else.
[13:03]It also was sometimes the best friend at work
[13:06]or the ally or the secret partner during that secret time
[13:10]that helped people navigate until they were ready to share.
[13:13]And also there were some surprising thank yous to teams
[13:17]where I think people realized in hindsight,
[13:19]like, wow, they either really helped me in this moment
[13:22]or I couldn't have done this time period without them
[13:25]because they created their own community
[13:26]that also were going through similar experiences.
[13:30]I know your book is geared more towards the mom.
[13:33]But as someone who has a team and a lot of young girls
[13:36]on my team, young women on my team who are amazing
[13:39]and hopefully will stay with me forever.
[13:41]And I'm assuming at some point
[13:43]if that happens, they will have families
[13:44]or simply some of them.
[13:45]What can you do as an employer
[13:47]and the script earlier that you talked about
[13:49]was really helpful?
[13:50]But what can you do to set up a culture at work
[13:53]that makes it as easy as possible for the workers
[13:57]to succeed, not workers, the team, you know what I mean?
[14:00]Yeah, you know, one thing that you can do
[14:02]and you already do is put,
[14:04]you're just talking about your own experiences.
[14:06]So it makes it very normal not just to talk about children
[14:09]or pregnancy and work,
[14:10]but all of the many work-life intersections
[14:12]so I often start big with that and say like,
[14:15]listen, if you create an environment
[14:16]where people are comfortable to overuse phrase
[14:21]but bring their whole selves to work,
[14:23]that happens in those big life moments,
[14:25]it happens in little life moments.
[14:26]So when you need to have that,
[14:27]how to tell my Boston pregnant conversation
[14:29]or hey, I'm thinking about no freezing mags.
[14:32]It's much more natural and is a conversation
[14:36]versus a pressure that they're feeling.
[14:38]The second thing, particularly with regards to pregnancy
[14:41]and work is talk about it one before they ever may need it.
[14:44]So for a lot of employers, people might join an organization
[14:48]and then search within a web page
[14:50]to try to find out benefits.
[14:51]But instead, if you put them up front of this
[14:54]is what we offer before if you're considering
[14:57]having a family during or after employee resource groups,
[15:01]all different types of resources that exist
[15:03]for that continuum.
[15:04]Instead of only what's in front of people,
[15:06]I find that that really has been resonating a lot
[15:09]with new employees within organizations.
[15:11]That's a good idea.
[15:13]You should put a whole thing about that somewhere.
[15:15]This is great.
[15:16]I'm gonna leave here and make some changes and, you know,
[15:18]although some of them are like 23,
[15:19]so I'm hoping I get, they're like dating and anyway,
[15:23]but it's never too early.
[15:25]But you know, they might be going through other things too
[15:27]as a caregiver or their friends or their sisters
[15:30]and it might just help to make that something that's,
[15:33]oh, of course, I feel supported at work.
[15:35]And then you get engaged people way before,
[15:37]with the point of attrition in the pipeline for women,
[15:39]both pregnancy and menopause.
[15:41]In fact, you see like the first time people become managers
[15:44]or within their, you know, late 20s, early 30s
[15:47]is the same time when their careers are having this moment.
[15:49]So if you anticipate it, then your retention is happening
[15:52]long before there's any kind of risk to that too.
[15:55]And of course they're perpetuating in a good way
[15:57]for everybody else also.
[15:59]Yes, exactly.
[16:01]We're children's books.
[16:02]Thanks.
[16:05]What is being strong meant to you?
[16:08]So, you know, it's funny.
[16:09]I've been thinking about that a lot lately
[16:11]because I feel as a leader, as an author,
[16:14]someone who's talking about an empowered approach,
[16:17]I have these moments where I have self doubt.
[16:20]And I think that the strength that you need to carry
[16:24]literally as a leader, as an author,
[16:27]as a friend, as a teammate is a big one.
[16:30]So I think that true strength comes from, yes,
[16:33]having that and having that confidence and fortitude
[16:35]no matter what, but it's also recognizing
[16:38]that you're not superhuman.
[16:39]And the more that we can share both sides of that,
[16:41]I find that that's actually tremendous strength
[16:44]and what I really try to do.
[16:45]I don't do it great, as a friend of my children.
[16:48]I'm like, it's completely fine.
[16:50]We can do all of these things at the same time.
[16:53]But I do often ask for help.
[16:55]And that's kind of one of the ways that I show being strong.
[16:58]I like that.
[16:59]I like that a lot.
[17:00]You mentioned you wrote this book
[17:01]between 11 and two, 11 and 2 a.m.
[17:04]Yeah, I like how you just threw that in there.
[17:06]Yeah.
[17:06]Tell me about this whole process.
[17:09]Did it all take place in the middle of the night?
[17:11]Well, it couldn't be because of the interview piece.
[17:14]But no, of course.
[17:15]No, at the right end of the day.
[17:17]The right end.
[17:18]A lot of the writing did because one thing
[17:20]for Swama night, night owl, second of all,
[17:22]I work for a global organization.
[17:24]So the early mornings, I'm normally already kind of on that.
[17:27]Time zone versus at the end of the night,
[17:29]I would put my kids to sleep.
[17:31]I would have this kind of quiet moment.
[17:33]The emails would not be firing up for work.
[17:36]And I would be like, OK, it's a creative space.
[17:38]It was actually really feeling and enjoyed the quiet.
[17:40]I mean, I also enjoy now my Friday nights a little bit,
[17:43]versus only editing track changes.
[17:46]But it was something really gratifying.
[17:49]And so I just did it in a way that was really structured.
[17:51]I would do the interviews when I could in different kind
[17:54]of time slots or early or at lunch time or at the end of the day.
[17:57]And then I would organize myself when I was tired
[18:00]and I wasn't feeling creative to write.
[18:01]I would write back to the emails
[18:03]or I would go through the research
[18:04]or I would pluck different quotes that I really liked.
[18:07]But then I would just get in the zone.
[18:09]And I knew that I like to write in these big chunks.
[18:11]And I just kind of planned it that way.
[18:13]It also was not the best decision, but it worked out.
[18:20]Would you do it again?
[18:21]Are you going to write another book?
[18:23]I would love to.
[18:24]I think that I need to feel the topic.
[18:28]And it's interesting.
[18:29]I have a couple different options of one
[18:31]where I think it could be really helpful
[18:33]that are coming from kind of a similar space.
[18:35]But I want to give it a little bit of time.
[18:37]I mean, this is where I need your advice.
[18:39]But I feel like I put so much into it
[18:42]in terms of making sure that there was the research,
[18:44]that it was relevant, that it had all of the stories,
[18:47]that I gave this space, it was different type of structure.
[18:50]And then now I just want to share it.
[18:52]Like that's why the first page in the book
[18:54]is my most favorite part of the book,
[18:55]which it actually has a pass it on page on the inside.
[18:59]And it says this book is meant to be passed on
[19:01]and has lines on it.
[19:02]Everyone's like, well, what do you want from the book?
[19:04]And I'm like, I want to someday just find one of these books
[19:06]that has all these names listed in it.
[19:08]Because I really believe that.
[19:10]That's all I want to create.
[19:11]It's this ripple effect that there's great things.
[19:14]There's tough things.
[19:14]And there's a lot of neutral.
[19:16]And we're going to continue to have kids.
[19:17]And we're going to continue to be leaders.
[19:19]We're going to continue to join the workforce.
[19:22]So I would love to help to contribute more than just
[19:25]the dire headlines that we often hear.
[19:27]I love the pass it on.
[19:28]It's like chain mail, the email, these will get his kids.
[19:31]And we was like, literally folded up in an envelope
[19:34]and mail it.
[19:35]And so many women talk about passing off
[19:37]their potty training or their breastfeeding books.
[19:41]And I love that moms often pass on little raincoats
[19:45]or blazers or things like this.
[19:47]And the names are always scribbled in the back.
[19:49]And I was like, that's really cool.
[19:50]So now this is what I'd like to contribute.
[19:53]So that's really it.
[19:55]So this is like the hand me down.
[19:58]When you share it, you're sharing.
[20:00]It also with your score. Like, if you have questions, you want to talk about it.
[20:02]Wait, I'm here for you or not. And I'll give you your space. It's been interesting, though,
[20:06]to have some people who are like, mother-in-laws ask me if they can give this as a gift.
[20:12]And I'm like, um, is it, is it, because she has shared with you that she needs the support?
[20:17]Or is it, are you being festive aggressive? And if that's the case, then, then, don't.
[20:22]Yeah. So bad, mother-in-laws have it rough.
[20:26]Yeah, that's not an awesome one. But, you know, they just won one's best for that,
[20:31]but family. No, I understand. It's just, it's funny. What did you want to be when you were
[20:37]a little kid? I wanted to be, uh, well, two things I wanted to be was a CEO and a mom. And then,
[20:44]somewhere in between that, I actually had an ambition to be, I would mix potions in my bathroom.
[20:49]So I'm in very much a similar space with all of those things that I do now. But I was really inspired
[20:54]by Mary Kay birthday parties. And so I wanted to have like the pink Cadillac and create these
[21:01]magic potions and on the side of that, I also wanted to, you know, have a big family. So I'm doing
[21:07]my best against those lofty goals. That's awesome. I love that. Yeah, it's like the whole
[21:12]Tupperware. No, I know it. It was really cool. But now I'm really proud because I get to work
[21:18]also with people. So I was a chemistry major in undergouting college and I started working for
[21:22]chemical and beauty companies. And now I'm really proud to work at L'Oreal and get to work with
[21:28]those scientists, but also with the people and with my job in, in HR, it's been pretty amazing to
[21:33]be able to bring it all together in a organically. I worked for a short time at Unilever doing
[21:39]Consumer Products Management for the launch of the Vera Wang fragrance. Amazing. I learned so much
[21:45]about beauty in general and companies devoted to that. And oh my gosh, tooling of the
[21:52]bottles and everything. And the nose is everything that goes into every single product that I've
[21:57]never looked at anything the same since. Totally. That was actually one of my first jobs was at a
[22:02]fragrance house on your work time Britney Spears curious. Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah, I cannot. And all
[22:10]the ads, we would like rip out the ads and what are the bottles look like and the smells. And at
[22:15]the beginning, they were like, once you smell angel, you'll never be able to not smell it. And I was
[22:20]mean. And now anytime I smell that fragrance, I'm like, it's true. It is. I can smell it right now.
[22:28]Do you wear that? No, it's just the big thing where you wear different ones now. Yeah.
[22:34]No. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. Do you like to read in your spare time? And if so, what? And by the way,
[22:39]how great that you recommended other books like in your genre, that's really awesome. That's
[22:44]and I remember when I met Lauren Smith Brody at and this I was like, hi, I have to tell you,
[22:51]I'm a huge fan of yours. And basically when I was writing my book, I was like, okay, where's
[22:55]the sweet spot between all these other awesome books that that way I can say, you can buy this,
[23:00]but you also should get these one in this one in this one. And it was, that was pretty cool.
[23:04]I love to read. I like to alternate. So I tried to read something that is full pleasure and then
[23:10]something that is going to have some kind of more intellectual value. So I alternate back in the
[23:15]fourth, but it's interesting because I also have a cousin who the two of us do these book clubs and
[23:20]try to also pick books for each other to like. So I'm actually in the market right now for a new
[23:25]book. So any recommendations, which I know you have many very welcome as I'm about to actually get
[23:30]on a plane. So I have to load up the code. I interviewed Angie Kim this morning who wrote Happiness
[23:36]Falls, which I would recommend. You should pick this up for the plane. It goes immersive and
[23:42]interesting and talks a lot about parenting. And I don't know. It's, you know, there's it's really
[23:48]good. That was a terrible pitch, but it's a really good book. But I'm very open and you certainly
[23:53]have good suggestions. Thank you. It's been nice though after writing. I don't know how you feel
[23:58]about it, but like when you're writing, it's really hard to read. Just one, my brain would be,
[24:05]would have trouble kind of with those space, but also like your eyes. You start to go back to what
[24:10]you're writing. I don't know. It was tough to really get into a good book that this summer once the
[24:15]book was launched. I was like, I was so happy. I was like flying through things. It was nice. There's an
[24:20]old stack, which I actually stack behind me too, which is a whole bunch of letters that I wanted to read.
[24:25]Oh, you have to have the stack going. It was kind of stack. And it looks so pretty too.
[24:29]They do. I know. They make great ornaments. I keep meaning to move around these colors, but I don't
[24:36]think of it until I'm like in the middle of a podcast and I run out of the room. I love your books.
[24:41]It's really beautiful. Thanks. I actually love your wallpaper. It's really nice.
[24:44]It's a good love. It's a good show. I'm actually sitting on this other desk because my
[24:50]other computer decided not to work. Yeah. It looks great. Anyway. And how do you know you've
[24:56]so I met Eve. It's funny because she was introduced to me through a different, a couple different
[25:01]people, contributors in the book and also was just so impressed by her and by fair play and by
[25:08]you know, find your unicorn space. And then she contributed one of her stories and then she
[25:13]learned the book. And I think that she just is such an example of what I aspire to with creating
[25:20]a conversation. And I think she has done that so well, particularly with, you know, I say in the book
[25:26]shining all the lights on the caregiving burden for me. It was the same thing where I was like,
[25:30]all right, I want to flip this script on this cultural constant of pregnancy and work.
[25:34]Yeah. It's just really impressed by her. Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been so enjoyable.
[25:39]I feel stronger already and your whole message and the way you're helping, it's really great.
[25:44]So thank you for having me. Everything you've created and encouraging, you know, more individuals
[25:51]and certainly moms who should read books. That's true. Yeah. We have to make time.
[25:56]Yeah. Certainly not going to find it laying around. Get a look at it. Listen to it. We can read it.
[26:02]We can touch it. We can sign in and pass it on. Exactly. Yes, but thank you so much.
[26:07]All right. Take care. Have to meet you in person. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
[26:13]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:16]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[26:21]Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[26:26]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures
[26:31]Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[26:35]fantastic intro and outro music.