Beth O'Leary, THE WAKE-UP CALL
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Betha Leary is the author of The Wake Up Call.
[1:06]Beth is a Sunday Times bestselling author whose books have been translated into more
[1:10]than 30 languages.
[1:12]She wrote her debut novel, Flat Share, on her trained journey to and from her job at
[1:16]a children's publisher.
[1:17]She now lives in the Hampshire countryside and writes full-time.
[1:21]Welcome, Beth.
[1:22]Thanks so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:24]Oh, thank you so much for having me.
[1:26]Your book.
[1:27]So funny, delightful.
[1:29]Love your characters.
[1:30]I wanted to just hang out at the hotel, wanted to patch the roof together myself.
[1:35]I'm sure they would have very much appreciated that.
[1:39]But the rivalry and the personalities, it was just lovely, enjoyable, really great.
[1:45]And I just love the way you write, like your style is just your sense of humor and the
[1:49]way you see things.
[1:50]So anyway, I really enjoyed it.
[1:52]Thank you so much.
[1:53]That is very lovely to hear.
[1:54]I had so much fun writing, it's to be honest.
[1:56]So I sometimes feel like, yeah, I hope that is there on the page.
[1:59]I feel like you can tell.
[2:01]Don't you think?
[2:02]I don't know.
[2:03]Well, I feel like you can, although I sometimes, I take sort of, I guess, courage from
[2:07]thinking that there are some books where or some parts of books that I've found really
[2:11]hard to write and not fun and that people don't seem to have noticed.
[2:15]So I need to tell myself that sometimes.
[2:18]Oh my gosh, OK, so tell listeners what your book is about.
[2:24]So the wake-up call is about Izzy and Lucas, who are receptionists at a beautiful ramshackle
[2:30]falling down hotel in the New Forest, which is a very beautiful part of England.
[2:35]And when Izzy finds a collection of wedding and engagement rings in lost property, she sets
[2:40]about trying to return them to their owners and she gets a substantial reward for the hotel
[2:44]when she finds the owner of one of them.
[2:46]So management get very excited and task her and Lucas with returning all the rings to try
[2:52]and kind of save the hotel, but it's even more challenging than it sounds because Izzy
[2:56]and Lucas absolutely despise each other.
[3:00]So where did you get this idea?
[3:02]So this book was brewing for a very long time, really.
[3:05]I love story based around rings because for starters, I just find them fascinating like
[3:10]they're such a, like each one symbolizes a love story in its own.
[3:15]I love the idea that bringing a collection of rings that kind of found into a story would
[3:20]essentially give me, you know, however many love stories I wanted to weave through.
[3:24]And I just thought that would be so much fun, which it was.
[3:26]And I also just think that a very powerful symbol, like I was thinking the other day,
[3:30]like my husband takes his ring off to go for a run and even just the sight of his wedding
[3:34]ring on our table, it just sort of sends me cold, you know, that idea of someone taking
[3:39]off that ring.
[3:40]And they're just so sort of important, aren't they?
[3:42]And I love the sort of that image.
[3:43]Wait, why does he take the ring off when he runs in case it falls off?
[3:49]Because it's a little loose, so he doesn't like to run with it on.
[3:51]Good point though.
[3:52]Other single joggers nearby, you know, yeah, or maybe his runs are in fact, clandestine
[3:59]meetings with other, with other women.
[4:01]Yeah, so I had that idea ages ago.
[4:03]And I kind of, I have a lot of these ideas that sort of sit, I mean, you must be the same
[4:07]that sit in the back of my mind and I kind of half, half a book, but not really a whole
[4:11]book.
[4:12]And it wasn't until I sort of landed on the setting and the idea of it being a kind of
[4:16]wintery novel that it really clicked because also I was trying to think, you know, why
[4:19]would someone have all these rings, where would you lose all these rings?
[4:22]And I thought like a swimming pool, like you might take your ring off to go for a swim,
[4:26]but it's just like a leisure center as we'd call them here.
[4:30]I don't know what you guys would call them, but it's just like, it's not very sexy or cool.
[4:35]And then when I thought like hotel with a spa, I was like, oh, now you're talking.
[4:38]Now this is this is somewhere I could set a gorgeous wintery romance.
[4:43]It actually came together at a, you know how sometimes books find you or stories
[4:46]find you just when you need to write them.
[4:48]I think this book was one of those for me because it actually was my procrastination
[4:53]from another book that I was meant to be writing.
[4:56]And it was my little sort of guilty pleasure and I had mentioned my editors, I've got
[5:00]this idea for a sort of wintery novel, but I'll maybe work over it in the next few years
[5:04]on the alongside the things that, you know, are under contract the books that I've committed
[5:08]to write.
[5:09]And then I just sort of sneakily started on this one and then they kind of gave me a
[5:14]little bit of a nudge and sort of said, oh, are you still doing that?
[5:17]And it almost gave me permission, I think, to let myself run with it.
[5:20]And I think part of what brought me so much joy about writing it was I'd not promised
[5:24]it to anyone.
[5:25]So it was a really different writing experience.
[5:27]And I think having gone from writing my debut novel, the flat share I wrote kind of on
[5:32]my train journey to and from work, writing was my passion that I tried to fit in everywhere
[5:35]I could.
[5:36]And then I went to being a full-time writer and I kind of threw myself into it almost
[5:41]with too much further because I was so determined.
[5:44]I just felt like it's my dream come true and I want to make every the most of this opportunity
[5:49]to be able to be full-time writing.
[5:51]And actually I think I really needed that little bit of pressure off for this book to just
[5:55]write something and kind of think, if I can do it, then I can do it.
[5:59]But otherwise, it's okay.
[6:01]You know, like I'm not working really to a deadline here.
[6:03]I'm just kind of seeing if this story comes and yeah, it was a joy too much further.
[6:08]It looks like sitting at your desk at 8 a.m. going come up with a good idea.
[6:18]Now, come on, try harder.
[6:21]Yeah, I think I just, I felt so lucky to be there and that almost froze me, I think,
[6:27]in some ways because I felt like also the flat share, you know, it was a phenomenon like
[6:31]it sold in 36 languages.
[6:34]It's been made into a TV show.
[6:36]It's changed my life completely and it was, it couldn't have been more of a dream story.
[6:41]You know, of how to get published, it was, it was like, wait, go back up for your whole
[6:46]life story for a second because what happened, but what were you doing at work before you
[6:52]started writing on the train and have you let like, did you always want to be doing this?
[6:56]Like, just how did we get there and then describe the flat share?
[6:59]Like little bit of context.
[7:01]Yeah, of course.
[7:02]So I have always, I've always wanted to be an author ever since I was a little girl.
[7:05]I've written stories, you know, on scrap paper since I was able to write and I finished
[7:10]my first novel when I was about 15, as you can imagine, it was absolutely brilliant.
[7:16]It's somewhere, I don't dare look at it, but I wrote lots of novels and try to get
[7:23]representation before the flat share and I worked in, like, license publishing so it's
[7:27]things like like the Peppa Pig activity books and things like that.
[7:30]So I helped to make those, which was amazing and a really creative, fun, buzzy environment
[7:35]to work in and also put me in the same building as the kind of publishing I, you know, wanted
[7:40]to, I wanted to be a writer and I wasn't kind of an editor in the sense that I work
[7:45]the editors I work with now, but I could see them and I really, it really changed things
[7:51]for me I think because it gave me a sense that like this does happen for people, like
[7:55]there are people every day in this building getting published and that could be me.
[8:00]And it taught me as well about how a novel is sold, I think.
[8:03]Was there a cafeteria?
[8:04]Like, did you get to see them?
[8:06]Oh, is the lunch line?
[8:07]Yeah, I wasn't even enough to approach anyone, but you could see them.
[8:13]All right.
[8:14]It was, it was a strange moment when I knew my, my agent had sent me out on submission
[8:18]and I would walk past the adult teams who obviously had no idea who I was, like, I would
[8:22]walk past them on the way to the loop and I would think like, what if one of them has
[8:26]got my novel, like, up on their screen right now and they have no idea, I'm just walking
[8:30]past it to the loop.
[8:32]Okay, but it was totally inspiring for you.
[8:35]And it felt like, if someone could do it, you could do it.
[8:38]Yeah, that's what I felt like.
[8:39]And then I was finding Living in London, I just wasn't making time to write and I don't
[8:44]feel like myself, if I'm not writing, I don't know how it's for you, but I just find
[8:48]that I can't fully feel me without that part of myself.
[8:52]So once I moved out of London, I realized I had this kind of hour journey every day and
[8:56]it was just downtime, really, and that could be my writing time.
[8:59]So that was a huge change for me and meant I had two hours a day where I was actually focusing
[9:04]on doing the thing I love doing.
[9:06]And I wrote the novel quite quickly in about six months, spent about six months editing
[9:10]it, which is quick, seemed quick to me then.
[9:12]It is quick.
[9:13]That's quick.
[9:14]Yeah.
[9:15]Okay.
[9:16]Thanks.
[9:17]Yeah.
[9:18]I'm conscious that some people write like four novels a year and there's maybe like, I was
[9:19]so quick.
[9:20]But for me, that seems quick.
[9:21]And I sent it out to a handful of agents and nobody wanted to read past the first three
[9:26]chapters except for Tanara, who is now my agent.
[9:29]I will never forget the feeling of getting that email where somebody said, I'd love
[9:33]to meet with you, I loved the novel, can we talk and just, I felt like if that was the
[9:39]only thing that had happened that year, it would have made my year, you know, but then
[9:44]after that, I worked on the novel with her and we did lots of sort of editorial work,
[9:49]particularly on the beginning, which I think is really interesting because once when I
[9:52]sent it out to agents, no one was really that interested, but then I reworked the opening
[9:56]and when we sent it out to editors, it was a totally different story.
[10:00]And it was preempted.
[10:01]It sold in the US.
[10:02]And I realized at a certain point,
[10:05]I was going to earn enough to quit my job
[10:07]and do this full-time.
[10:09]And it was an absolute well-wind.
[10:11]I remember when I got the news about the US deal,
[10:15]I was out doing karaoke with some friends,
[10:18]which is not a thing I enjoy, but got dragged to.
[10:21]And I just remember sobbing my way through jolines.
[10:24]Oh, thank you.
[10:26]Just, it was actually perfect.
[10:28]It was just what I needed.
[10:30]That is amazing.
[10:31]I love that image.
[10:33]I feel like your own life is like a novel we could write.
[10:37]You know, the rom-com author who's husband
[10:41]has a secret life on that.
[10:43]Whatever you guys brought.
[10:45]Joline, I don't know.
[10:46]It all sounds very cinematic.
[10:47]Your whole, your actual story.
[10:49]Oh, is that a good thing I did next?
[10:52]So tell me more about the flat chair,
[10:54]because I'm embarrassed to say I've not read it.
[10:56]Now I want to read everything you've ever written,
[10:58]oh, no, no.
[10:59]Okay, so just talk, I love to discover somebody
[11:02]who's yet to read my backlist.
[11:03]The flat chair is a story about two people
[11:05]who share a one bed flat, but they don't meet
[11:07]because one of them works night
[11:08]and the other one works days.
[11:10]And it was actually, it was inspired
[11:11]by my own living situation.
[11:13]With my now husband, the runner,
[11:15]he was a junior doctor at the time,
[11:16]which we just moved in together
[11:17]and he was working loads of night shifts.
[11:19]And we would literally pass like shifts in the night.
[11:22]And I would find out about how his day was
[11:24]from little clues around the house,
[11:25]you know, how many coffee cups were by the sink,
[11:27]whether his shoes were by the back door,
[11:29]and we used to kind of leave each other food,
[11:30]the dinner at breakfast time.
[11:32]And we would, you know, we had this sort of strange existence.
[11:34]And I just loved the idea of looking at what two strangers
[11:38]could learn about each other if they lived that way.
[11:40]And could you fall in love in that way
[11:43]with the kind of negative space around a person?
[11:45]And that was where that story came from,
[11:47]the story that, yeah, as I say,
[11:49]the story changed my life really.
[11:51]And then it became a movie,
[11:53]a film, a TV series rather.
[11:55]Yeah, it's on free V in the US,
[11:57]if anyone's interested.
[11:58]Oh my gosh, look at the stuff I have to do now.
[12:00]This is, I know you.
[12:01]I'm sorry, I'm adding to your to do list.
[12:04]No, it's great.
[12:05]This is wonderful.
[12:06]And then you just kept going
[12:07]and you just kept writing now.
[12:08]Well, did.
[12:09]So now how many of you now have many in total,
[12:11]how many do you have, have you written
[12:13]that haven't come out yet,
[12:14]but you're like working on them and have it deal or whatever?
[12:17]So the wake up call is my fifth published book.
[12:20]And at the moment I am juggling between
[12:23]the next novel I'm writing and the one after that.
[12:26]As you will know, it's always like,
[12:27]you're always a million books ahead on you
[12:29]and with a baby on the way.
[12:30]I am trying to figure out how far I can kind of get
[12:33]and then put something on hold.
[12:35]And it's a funny old thing,
[12:36]isn't it juggling, juggling, writing with life
[12:38]because it's such a, I don't know,
[12:40]an all-consuming job that in lots of ways
[12:42]you're never, you're never quite not doing it,
[12:44]but you know, it's a funny thing.
[12:49]I love that.
[12:50]You're never not quite doing it.
[12:52]And then it's true.
[12:54]And I feel like there's also so much of the thinking
[12:56]that goes behind it, that it's not,
[12:58]you can't like sit and you can't quantify it,
[13:01]but without that, you won't have anything.
[13:02]There will be no output, so.
[13:04]Yeah, I find, I think that was one of what we talk
[13:07]about my fervent start to writing.
[13:09]I think that was one of the things that it took me a while
[13:12]to realize is that actually sometimes what work looks like
[13:15]isn't what work used to look like to me.
[13:17]It's not applying yourself and saying,
[13:20]I'm gonna try really hard and try my best.
[13:22]And that will mean I do my best work,
[13:25]because actually a lot of the time
[13:27]when I do my best work is when I'm not trying at all,
[13:30]or when I've given up,
[13:31]or when I've gone for a walk with a dog
[13:32]and gone, I can't figure this out, never mind.
[13:35]And then an idea comes to me,
[13:37]and it might undo two months of sitting at the desk,
[13:41]typing, and you may end up deleting all those words,
[13:44]but there's this sort of weird,
[13:46]like there's no relationship between the input
[13:48]and the output sometimes.
[13:49]And sometimes there is, sometimes you do just need to sit down
[13:52]and write, but I still,
[13:54]I'm not very good at telling exactly
[13:56]which one of those times it is.
[13:58]I'm not very good at sort of saying,
[14:00]I need to push through right now.
[14:01]This is just, or when I need to say,
[14:05]walk away from the desk, you need time to think about this.
[14:08]Well, do you see your husband now?
[14:10]I mean, you must have seen him at least once.
[14:11]You're pregnant.
[14:12]That's good.
[14:13]So we know he's like being lost now.
[14:16]So perhaps, anyway,
[14:19]so is he back on normal hours?
[14:21]He is.
[14:22]Oh, and it is a delight.
[14:24]I have to say, not having somebody kind of coming up,
[14:27]because the weirdest ones were the hours
[14:29]where he would come back in the middle of the night,
[14:31]like at 2 a.m. or something.
[14:32]And that's really weird because you're like,
[14:34]you kind of go to bed,
[14:35]but you know, you're going to be waking up in a minute
[14:36]by someone coming in,
[14:37]and then you're sort of also listening out a little bit.
[14:39]So there's that strange,
[14:40]those with those with the oddest days.
[14:42]I mean, it's amazing that people can do it
[14:44]for long periods of time.
[14:45]Yeah.
[14:46]And one of the things about writing a novel like that
[14:47]about people who live that way is you hear loads
[14:50]of real life stories.
[14:51]People often tell me about their lives.
[14:53]I met a bookseller who told me that his wife was a nurse
[14:57]who worked nice and they used to meet on the corner
[15:00]and just give each other a kiss on the quiet street
[15:02]on their way to work.
[15:03]And I just found out so romantic.
[15:04]It's like, I should have written that in.
[15:06]That's better than my book.
[15:10]Next time.
[15:10]You could do like little shorts,
[15:11]you know, like sort of story,
[15:14]even after something.
[15:15]And what kind of looks do you go like to read
[15:17]when you're not fervently writing yourself?
[15:19]I love reading romance.
[15:20]I'm a big romance reader,
[15:22]which is handy because now that I'm an author,
[15:25]people like to send me their romance novel,
[15:26]so she's always about it.
[15:28]But I do find that I sometimes need to step out
[15:31]of genre a little bit at the moment.
[15:33]Like I think one of the things about this job
[15:35]is you're reading gets a bit less varied
[15:37]because you are reading proofs,
[15:39]you're reading advanced reading copies
[15:40]like you're reading kind of within your genre all the time.
[15:43]And so I have lately,
[15:44]I've really re-found my love of fantasy,
[15:47]which I used to read a lot as a teenager.
[15:49]So I've been listening to Sarah J. Mass on audio book,
[15:53]which I've been really enjoying.
[15:54]Audio is like my outlet for things that I'm like,
[15:56]I know I don't really have time to read this,
[15:58]but I'm gonna read it on audio book
[16:00]and then it doesn't count
[16:01]because I'm really reading it like whilst I'm cleaning
[16:03]or something.
[16:04]Yes.
[16:05]I totally get that.
[16:06]I know every so often I'm like, wait a minute,
[16:08]it's possible that I could also be listening to a book
[16:10]while I do whatever.
[16:12]Like I have 20 minutes in the car.
[16:14]Will this kid care?
[16:15]Maybe, you know, like what can I hear?
[16:17]Yeah, so it's so satisfying
[16:19]when you can fit a book into another bit of your day,
[16:22]which doesn't have a book in it yet.
[16:23]Exactly, exactly.
[16:25]Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
[16:27]Yeah, I feel like I'm the last one
[16:29]to jump on this fantasy bandwagon,
[16:31]but maybe I'll do it as my way in,
[16:32]I don't know, maybe I know.
[16:34]You do need a good reader though, don't you?
[16:36]And I think we're fantasy
[16:37]because there's often so many names and place names and things.
[16:40]I sometimes struggle when I'm not reading it on a page
[16:43]to remember all the, I don't know.
[16:45]I'm maybe I'm quite visual.
[16:46]I just sort of feel like I can, I'm like, who wears?
[16:49]Yes, so if I leave it too long,
[16:51]you've got to kind of pick with the audiobook
[16:53]and like listen to it frequently,
[16:54]otherwise you're like, oh no, I don't know,
[16:55]I don't know which planet we're on now.
[16:58]Do you have any adversarial relationships?
[17:00]Like, is there somebody who just gets under your skin
[17:02]like this?
[17:03]That's a great question.
[17:04]I don't think so.
[17:05]I have all the brothers,
[17:07]which I think probably helped with writing
[17:09]just for context.
[17:10]Is the end of Lucas at the beginning?
[17:11]I have a very spiky kind of relationship
[17:14]and they spend a lot of time winding each other up
[17:15]and kind of trying to irritate the other.
[17:17]So I think, yeah, being the youngest
[17:19]of a family with so many older brothers probably
[17:21]taught me a lot on that front of exactly how to,
[17:24]you know, hold your own in that situation.
[17:26]But I actually loved writing that sort of band to read
[17:29]like the sparky kind of dialogue.
[17:31]I always like writing dialogue.
[17:32]If I'm left to my own device,
[17:33]it's like probably just write pages of dialogue.
[17:36]I mean, it means that I can be a screenwriter.
[17:38]Just say, just throw that out there.
[17:40]That is a job.
[17:41]Is that what it is though?
[17:43]Is that allowed?
[17:44]I mean, how would anyone watch it?
[17:47]Who knows?
[17:49]I don't know.
[17:49]I think your odds are probably pretty good.
[17:51]Thank you, Jack, are you?
[17:53]Maybe one day.
[17:54]Oh my gosh.
[17:55]At the beginning, you said your life completely changed
[17:57]with the flat chair.
[17:58]What do you think your life would be like without it?
[18:01]And what are the most significant ways
[18:03]in which your life has gone
[18:04]that you never, ever would have thought?
[18:06]Like what are some of the obviously attaining success
[18:09]in the publishing arena?
[18:10]But any other ripple effects that that's caused?
[18:13]Or I don't know, just like ways that things have
[18:16]gone in a different direction?
[18:18]Yeah, I mean, even just like right now,
[18:20]I'm looking out of my office window at the woods
[18:24]I live in the countryside.
[18:26]I'm not kind of with an easy reach of London,
[18:28]which is where my job was and where kind of
[18:31]all the jobs in publishing were at that point.
[18:33]And being able to live here is something
[18:35]I would never have had without that book happening.
[18:38]And having a dog, that was like the first thing I did when we were like,
[18:44]oh, I'm going to be working from home.
[18:46]And then I was like, I definitely need a golden retriever
[18:48]puppy in my life.
[18:49]So she's now five and still a puppy at heart.
[18:51]And I think just who I am, like being able to
[18:54]kind of take my hobby, my passion and make it my job.
[18:58]I think it's just so fulfilling.
[19:00]I find so much joy in my work.
[19:03]I feel so lucky to have that.
[19:04]Like I think this part of myself always
[19:07]had to be sort of squashed into time where I could find little pockets of
[19:11]opportunity to write.
[19:12]And now to be able to kind of give it the
[19:14]expanse of the day is just amazing.
[19:18]I feel I love getting to do that.
[19:20]And do you still feel like tapped into the
[19:22]writer community there?
[19:24]What is that like?
[19:25]Is it a group of people or is it more like
[19:28]you have friends on Instagram or?
[19:30]Nope.
[19:31]No, it's right.
[19:31]It's right.
[19:33]Yeah, I actually, it took a little while to me.
[19:36]The other writers, to be honest, because I didn't
[19:38]know anyone else that did the job when I started.
[19:41]And I definitely didn't feel comfortable enough to kind of reach out to
[19:44]anyone to be like, hey, would you like to go for coffee?
[19:47]And so it just really had to happen kind of organically, mostly through events
[19:51]really when I get paired with another author in a bookshop or something.
[19:53]And now I've got some really, really close friends who
[19:56]do the same job as me, maybe in different genres.
[19:58]And people to brainstorm.
[20:00]where it's just so great having writers to talk to us
[20:02]and because there are some things that are so specific.
[20:05]Or that they'll get the problem
[20:08]because they've been there when this character's just not
[20:11]working, I can't figure out an element of their character
[20:16]and being able to talk to someone about it.
[20:17]He's like, yeah, I've been there.
[20:19]I had that with my second book and this character did this.
[20:21]And it's just lovely to have that support as well.
[20:24]But it did take me a couple of years, probably,
[20:27]before I really made proper all the friends.
[20:30]That's one of my favorite things
[20:31]is being able to introduce, especially authors
[20:33]who have books coming out.
[20:34]So they have no idea what's coming up with maybe somebody
[20:38]who has just been through it or something.
[20:40]So there's so much, I don't know.
[20:44]I felt like I was unprepared.
[20:45]I don't know.
[20:46]Oh, yeah.
[20:47]Absolutely.
[20:48]Two million people.
[20:49]I don't know.
[20:50]Sometimes you'd be like the buddy system or I don't know.
[20:53]You do.
[20:53]I thought it was so much.
[20:54]It's so overwhelming.
[20:55]And it's one thing sort of dreaming of being published.
[20:58]But actually being published, there were definitely moments
[21:00]where I felt like I'd opened a big box of things.
[21:04]So I kind of wanted to shove everything back in the box again
[21:06]because I just thought, I've let it all out
[21:08]and you can't take it back.
[21:10]And it's hard to ever kind of have total confidence in your book,
[21:13]even though you're like, I know I love this story.
[21:14]And I know I put everything into it.
[21:16]You still, I think.
[21:17]I don't know any author who doesn't have days
[21:20]where they're like, what am I doing?
[21:21]This is terrible.
[21:22]Why am I letting anyone read this?
[21:25]Can you give any tidbits about your upcoming book,
[21:28]your next one?
[21:29]What it's called or anything when it's coming out?
[21:32]I wish I knew what it was called.
[21:33]And titles are so hard.
[21:37]So I can't share that because I do not know.
[21:39]I can say, so this one, I would say,
[21:41]it's probably the hardest book I've ever written.
[21:43]I hope that one I get there.
[21:45]It will be a really epic love story.
[21:49]I wanted to be a kind of book to make you laugh and cry.
[21:54]And it's an idea.
[21:56]It's a big idea.
[21:57]And it's a big concept that I had a while ago
[21:59]and thought, I don't think I can do that.
[22:01]And then eventually, I don't know.
[22:03]Maybe I don't know what gave me the courage to do it.
[22:06]But I was like, I'm going to try.
[22:07]And it was really hard.
[22:08]And it has been really hard.
[22:10]But I hope it's going to be a beautiful end.
[22:12]That's amazing.
[22:13]I just was reading some quote, which I'll massacre here.
[22:17]But it was something like, you think you need confidence
[22:21]to have courage, but actually it's courage
[22:23]that creates the confidence.
[22:24]Wow, that is really interesting.
[22:26]Yeah, right?
[22:27]Oh, I love that.
[22:28]Needle on that.
[22:29]Yeah.
[22:30]Wow, I feel like, yeah.
[22:32]I want to think about that one.
[22:33]Yeah.
[22:33]I know, I think, and see if I can find the actual quote.
[22:36]And I mean, I guess in backwards, it's right.
[22:38]I'm a great girlfriend.
[22:39]Well, what you said was very profound.
[22:40]So if it's all, let's just take that one.
[22:44]OK, any final parting words, advice to aspiring authors?
[22:48]I mean, my top piece of advice is always try to finish
[22:51]something, and it sounds very simplistic,
[22:54]but it's really hard to finish something, particularly
[22:56]a novel, because it's so big.
[22:58]But for me, that process of writing lots of novels
[23:01]before the flat share, it taught me so much,
[23:04]because for me, so much of what really
[23:08]creates the book happens after the first draft.
[23:10]And I got to practice that.
[23:12]And you can't practice that process of going back over a story
[23:15]and going, what is this?
[23:16]What could it be, how can I make it better
[23:18]until you've tried finishing something?
[23:21]And it's just, it is so painful sometimes.
[23:24]And it does take so much confidence
[23:25]to push through that point in the book,
[23:28]usually about 40,000 words for me, where you're like, oh,
[23:30]I just, I don't know if this is going to go anywhere
[23:33]or whatever, but if you can, kind of push yourself
[23:35]to the end and just say, just get it down,
[23:37]and I'll make it good later.
[23:38]And then you get to learn what the joy of a second draft.
[23:42]That's a great advice.
[23:43]Yeah, but it later, just get it down.
[23:46]Yeah.
[23:47]Well, Beth, this was so fun.
[23:49]I hope I get to meet you at some point.
[23:50]Do you come touring in the US?
[23:52]Are you coming anytime soon or probably not?
[23:53]No, you're not.
[23:54]But, you know, yeah, but I would love to one day.
[23:57]So if I'm over there, I'll definitely let you know.
[23:59]Yeah, please come.
[24:00]I have a bookstore in Santa Monica in California,
[24:02]so you'll have to go.
[24:03]Oh my gosh.
[24:03]Put it on your tour stops, or whatever.
[24:06]Absolutely.
[24:06]Oh, thank you so much.
[24:08]We're good luck with the rest of your pregnancy
[24:10]and new motherhood.
[24:11]And here's a resource of been through this week and this week.
[24:15]My husband's like, why don't you just be a doctor?
[24:17]You think you know everything about my childhood illness.
[24:20]I like, well, science issues.
[24:23]Anyway, all right, we'll take care.
[24:25]Great to have crossed paths.
[24:27]Congratulations on your lovely, thank you.
[24:28]Thank you so much.
[24:29]Bye bye.
[24:30]Bye bye.
[24:32]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[24:35]to Read Books.
[24:36]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zebioans,
[24:39]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:41]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[24:43]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:45]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:48]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[24:49]in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:52]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:53]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.