Dr. Aliza Pressman, THE 5 PRINCIPLES OF PARENTING: Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Alisa Pressman is the author of the five principles of parenting.
[1:07]Your essential guide to raising good humans.
[1:09]I've known Alisa for many years.
[1:11]We've had some mutual friends who all went to college together.
[1:14]And then she founded an organization called Seedlings, which was the place in New York for
[1:20]moms to gather in groups and learned from psychologists and experts about parenting.
[1:25]So and then Alisa and I were some of the founding members of the Mount Sinai Parenting
[1:31]team, which helps train doctors and residents to help with parenting in some innovative
[1:38]ways and educational modules and does a lot of really good work for particularly underprivileged
[1:44]people in the community.
[1:45]But really everybody in this unique way of disseminating information.
[1:49]So anyway, Alisa and I spend a lot of time together and I adore her.
[1:52]She is amazing.
[1:54]Here's her official bio.
[1:55]Dr. Alisa Pressman is a developmental psychologist with nearly two decades of experience working
[2:00]with families and the healthcare providers who care for them.
[2:02]Alisa is an assistant clinical professor in the division of behavioral health department
[2:07]of pediatrics at the Icons School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital, where she is co-founding
[2:12]director of the Mount Sinai Parenting Center.
[2:14]I think I said parenting team before, but I meant parenting center.
[2:17]Alisa is also the host of the hit podcast, Raising Good Humans.
[2:21]She holds a BA from Dartmouth College, an MA in risk, resilience, and prevention from
[2:25]the Department of Human Development at Teachers College, and her PhD in developmental psychology
[2:30]from Columbia University Graduate School of Arts and Sciences.
[2:33]Alisa also holds a teaching certificate in mindfulness and meditation from the Greater
[2:37]Good Science Center at the University of California, Berkeley, Alisa is the mother of two
[2:41]teenagers.
[2:42]Welcome, Alisa.
[2:43]Thank you so much for coming on mom.
[2:45]Don't have time to read books to discuss the five principles of parenting your essential
[2:49]guide to raising good humans.
[2:52]Congrats.
[2:53]Thank you.
[2:54]It's really cool that you've written a book.
[2:55]So for those listening, Alisa and I have known each other for quite some time, originally
[3:00]through our friend Eva Heyman, who I adore.
[3:02]I remember meeting you at some wedding or something and her telling me like how much everybody
[3:07]loved you so much in college.
[3:09]And I was like, well, who is this girl?
[3:11]Anyway, that was so long ago.
[3:13]I can't even.
[3:14]And then you were the seedlings group person who had all the answers when I was struggling
[3:18]with small children didn't know what I was doing with myself.
[3:21]So I didn't know that.
[3:22]Anyway.
[3:23]But anyway, it's just so exciting.
[3:25]Then we, the amount sign of parenting group, we can go back to all this stuff.
[3:28]But now to have you ready, but it's just so cool.
[3:31]I'll thank you.
[3:32]I know you.
[3:33]It's true.
[3:34]I was thinking more.
[3:35]Yeah, like Mount Sinai, but yeah, it's been a really long time.
[3:40]If I'm going all the way back, but I and I never would have written a book, but I felt
[3:47]like in fact, I definitely was like, I'm not adding more to people.
[3:51]Plates with like another parenting book.
[3:56]But then I thought I could do one that could hopefully whittle it down to be everything
[4:02]under one roof and maybe turn down some of the noise that's out there.
[4:08]It's definitely had to write a parenting book.
[4:10]I'm so glad you finally did.
[4:12]So let's back up.
[4:14]First of all, tell everybody about this book and when you decided to write a book, how you
[4:19]structured it into these five principles, I love how you use your own voice and your
[4:24]own anecdote throughout.
[4:25]That was great.
[4:26]Because you never know.
[4:27]Sometimes it could be just purely reported, but now I know that you failed intro psych.
[4:30]So that's great to know.
[4:33]You know what?
[4:34]I think I took that out of I think that's out of the final half.
[4:38]I know.
[4:39]It doesn't matter.
[4:40]I'm not.
[4:41]I'm not ashamed.
[4:42]I mean, I'm proud, but I took it out of the intro because somebody said to me,
[4:48]now, when you're starting this book and you're a parent and you're really, really busy,
[4:53]they don't need your whole entire story of how you got here.
[4:56]So shorten it a bit.
[4:57]I love it.
[4:58]Oh, no.
[4:59]I love that part.
[5:00]I knew you had to cancel your 8 a.m. class, you know, I thought it was hilarious, but totally
[5:06]right.
[5:07]And that is like the two sentences that I took out.
[5:09]Oh my gosh.
[5:10]Well, great.
[5:11]But anyway, sorry, maybe has a different copy.
[5:15]So you can all.
[5:16]Sorry about that.
[5:17]Well, well, now you all know that in fact, yeah, it's true.
[5:21]I felt like one and I was at Dartmouth and it was not my proudest moment.
[5:27]And then I definitely did not know I was going to go into this field or I probably would
[5:33]have, you know, made a different decision.
[5:37]I also didn't know that you used to be really in the theater.
[5:40]Yeah.
[5:41]I know that was how the structuring of this book, true, I was like, I and I say this all
[5:46]the time actually at Mount Sinai, which everybody I think is more on the sporty side
[5:53]in our group.
[5:55]But I only know theater and I would choose.
[5:59]So everybody, you know, we learn to work with each other, but I'm always using theater
[6:03]things.
[6:04]And in this book, I did the second half of the book.
[6:06]I called from page to stage, which is meaningless to anyone who doesn't care about
[6:12]theater.
[6:14]But for me, it's like translating the work into your everyday parenting felt like what
[6:19]else could you call it?
[6:20]But from page to stage, okay, so back up, where did you grow like give us the two sentence?
[6:30]Where did you grow up?
[6:31]Did you grow up in LA or New York?
[6:32]And then how did you then you got into theater and then you fell into this when you were
[6:36]looking into drama therapy programs, but give us a little more color on that because you
[6:40]have become such a revered expert, particularly among, you know, everybody with kids
[6:47]for who are now I would say what 20 to like, I don't know, 10 to 20 every person in New
[6:53]York City knows who you are, you know, you're like the person.
[6:56]So how did that all happen?
[6:59]And then let's lead that into some of the big takeaways from your book.
[7:03]I actually grew up in Rockville, Maryland until high school and in high school, I moved
[7:09]to New York.
[7:10]In Rockville and born in Ohio, and I think because we have family, our parents are both
[7:18]from Dayton, right?
[7:19]Yes, of course.
[7:20]Yes, yes, yes.
[7:21]So anyway, I lived in New York for high school and then I came back to New York after
[7:27]college and I was doing theater and when I was doing theater, like it just wasn't as meaningful
[7:35]to me.
[7:36]I wasn't finding the meaning.
[7:37]I was looking for the luxury that I had after college was to find meaning, which I
[7:43]recognize is a ridiculous thing to say now.
[7:47]I was 22 and I was like, I really need to find more meaning than what I'm doing.
[7:51]So I did theater for a while and in doing so, I did start doing some volunteer work,
[7:56]which led me to this strange path to developmental psychology because I went to NYU to
[8:05]find out about a theater, like it was a drama therapy program and I learned that you
[8:09]could do both of the things that I thought were interesting.
[8:13]Like think about how humans come to be who they are and how to support them and also
[8:19]do theater.
[8:20]I was like, this is amazing, but then it was just a weird, just life works in funny
[8:25]ways.
[8:26]It was a weird time of year.
[8:27]I think it was January.
[8:29]So maybe applications were already closed, but I could take the foundational courses that
[8:35]I would need anyway and I took what I felt like was speed dating in this field of psychology.
[8:41]So I took all the different branches of psychology and when I took developmental psychology
[8:47]and learned about attachment, I was like, oh, this is so cool.
[8:52]And it was so dorky and even weirder that I didn't have kids yet, but I was like, this
[8:56]is fascinating, like how humans connect with their caregivers and how they grow into unfolding
[9:04]people.
[9:05]Like that to me was so fascinating, but in retrospect, it was a very strange love to find
[9:12]in my 20s when I had their children.
[9:15]So you fell in love with it and then you started practicing and when did you end up starting
[9:21]seedling group?
[9:22]Like how did that all come about?
[9:23]I think I was in graduate school at Columbia and I was pregnant and another one of my friends
[9:31]who had finished the program at Columbia and she was a professor at NYU.
[9:35]I remember she was a postdoc at the time.
[9:38]She and I would talk to each other about everything that we would read and hear and
[9:44]like kind of make sense of it based on the research.
[9:48]We felt like a real camaraderie over being able to understand what the research was saying
[9:55]and translate it, but we also felt like it was really strange that there were not.
[10:00]necessarily aligned voices on the playground.
[10:03]Like they were saying things that were kind of
[10:05]misinterpreting the research.
[10:07]So we thought it would be really cool
[10:09]to start parent groups.
[10:11]They were really mothers groups for the most part.
[10:13]That where we could do both of those things
[10:16]have the playground conversation
[10:19]but have the science as the foundation.
[10:22]So that's how we started seedlings group.
[10:24]And then I don't know, life just grows
[10:26]what you sort of do what feels like is needed.
[10:31]And also I think sometime during that period
[10:36]at some point there were people that felt like
[10:40]that was something that should be applied in healthcare settings.
[10:44]Just the idea that we can actually integrate parenting
[10:46]and child development into the experience
[10:49]of every human that goes near a hospital.
[10:52]And since 95% of kids are going to be in the hospital
[10:58]throughout those first few years and certainly born.
[11:01]I think it's even higher percentage born in hospitals.
[11:04]It just felt like another place to grow this work
[11:08]of giving parents support.
[11:11]So there you go.
[11:14]Wow.
[11:15]So in the book you talk about how to raise great kids,
[11:21]great humans, but also great parents.
[11:24]How you can become a great parent yourself
[11:26]in that, I just say good.
[11:28]Okay, sorry, lower.
[11:30]Okay, fine, good.
[11:32]Sorry, raising good parents.
[11:35]How do you become a good parent?
[11:38]I mean, I wanted to call the book raising good parents
[11:41]but that got next because the publishers thought
[11:45]it would be unclear, but I was like, no,
[11:47]I think if you're a parent, you know what that means,
[11:50]which is just like, it's not really anything
[11:53]about controlling the kids or anything to do with the kids.
[11:55]It's really about supporting us
[11:57]and helping us figure out what we're doing,
[11:59]how we're feeling, how we're responding.
[12:02]And though I couldn't call it that,
[12:04]I did have a chapter in called raising good parents
[12:07]for that reason where I just wanted to lay out
[12:10]that a lot of this isn't really about our kids.
[12:12]It's just like the way into having mothers in particular
[12:17]care about themselves because no one who has kids
[12:23]really that I know is like, you know what?
[12:27]Forget the kids.
[12:27]I'm just gonna focus on me, it's so hard to do that.
[12:32]But if you find out that there are certain things
[12:35]that feel like focusing on you
[12:37]but are actually benefiting your kids,
[12:40]it's just a little bit more motivating.
[12:42]And really the five principles could be applied
[12:47]to any situation, adults or kids,
[12:50]but again, I just framed it in parenting
[12:53]because that seems to be what captures us.
[12:57]And so what I wanted to do was think about all the research
[13:01]that has been, we've been looking at this for decades.
[13:05]It's been replicated across cultures and across communities.
[13:08]It's not trendy, like I just didn't wanna bring any
[13:11]of that into it.
[13:12]So what do we know for sure?
[13:14]There's a lot we don't know for sure,
[13:15]but what do we know for sure actually moves the needle
[13:19]that we can learn and that is in our control?
[13:22]Those were the criteria that I wanted
[13:25]because otherwise it feels like,
[13:27]well, I can't, what am I gonna do about that?
[13:28]Thank you so much.
[13:30]So I do mention temperament of course,
[13:33]which you can't do anything about.
[13:34]And I do mention like pretty deeply figuring out
[13:38]our own values, but the science of the five principles
[13:43]are relationship, reflection, regulation, rules,
[13:48]and repair.
[13:49]And those are really what we know.
[13:52]We have control over.
[13:54]We can do something about, we can get better at,
[13:56]and it is a pathway to resilience for both parents and kids.
[14:01]Talk a little more about regulation.
[14:03]I feel like this is something that it requires more
[14:07]prefrontal cortex development a little bit.
[14:10]And then parents and kids alike can struggle with,
[14:13]perhaps people you know, like myself, you know.
[14:16]So give us some tips from that section.
[14:19]And for those who have trouble regulating things
[14:23]like sleep or food or attention or all of that,
[14:27]like where is the, where is the hope?
[14:31]Well, the hope is that we have our brains are so plastic
[14:35]and we really do get to grow and change.
[14:38]It's certainly easier to wire than to rewire.
[14:42]So it's easier to focus on regulating yourself as the adult
[14:47]so that you can best support the developing regulation
[14:50]of your child.
[14:51]But we're going to fail at it many times.
[14:55]Probably at least one of us today will, you know,
[14:58]lose it at some point.
[15:01]And that's totally fine.
[15:02]That's where we have repair.
[15:05]But regulation is really the intentional control
[15:09]over your behavior, your emotions, your attention.
[15:14]So all of the things that you mentioned,
[15:16]fall under that category.
[15:17]And when you practice regulating yourself,
[15:21]which you really can only get a game at,
[15:25]as a fully developed person.
[15:27]So if your prefrontal cortex doesn't develop
[15:30]until you're between 18 and almost 30,
[15:33]then of course the place that houses the capacity
[15:37]to self-regulate is not as developed for the younger kids.
[15:41]They're not going to do as good of a job
[15:43]and they need to sort of borrow our regulation.
[15:47]So that's called co-regulation.
[15:48]It's a huge part of parenting.
[15:51]And it's really hard to do because one of the most
[15:57]dysregulating things to have in a parent's life
[16:01]is a dysregulated child.
[16:03]A kid who is completely spun out can set us off.
[16:09]And when I can, like if I can sell you the idea
[16:13]that while that's happening, if you can remind yourself,
[16:16]even do the hack of putting your hand in your heart
[16:20]or hand on belly or something,
[16:22]whatever gives you a little bit more soothing
[16:25]in your nervous system.
[16:26]And you can say to yourself, like, feelings aren't dangerous.
[16:29]My child is safe.
[16:31]So I can regulate myself.
[16:33]And I don't even need to talk to them right now.
[16:36]I can just focus on getting myself regulated.
[16:38]It gives them the message that what they're experiencing
[16:42]is not an emergency, not because it doesn't feel bad,
[16:46]but just that you, the parent, aren't like, oh my God,
[16:49]we have to fix this uncomfortable feeling right this second.
[16:52]And I know for me, if I just, if I look back
[16:56]in my life and even today, probably,
[16:58]if I call my parents and cry,
[17:01]I can really set them off,
[17:04]because they really don't like when I have a hard feeling.
[17:07]It's like, who does, there's nobody does.
[17:10]But the particular parents that I have
[17:13]at the particular era that I was raised
[17:15]with the particular culture that I'm in,
[17:18]like I have Jewish parents.
[17:19]They don't want their daughter upset.
[17:23]So they will do things to make the upset go away.
[17:27]And so the message over the years is like,
[17:30]being upset is dangerous.
[17:32]It shouldn't happen.
[17:34]Let's fix it.
[17:35]And I would like to refit, they are the best.
[17:38]I love them.
[17:39]This is not about them, but just to try to personalize it.
[17:42]I think if we can tell ourselves, feelings aren't dangerous,
[17:45]I can be here while you're experiencing a range of emotions.
[17:51]And I can regulate myself because the only reason
[17:54]to be dysregulated is if there's an emergency.
[17:58]And I have to set the alarm off.
[18:01]But if there isn't an emergency,
[18:02]which there is not for feelings, I can just be here.
[18:05]And that gives you the child's, the chance to recognize
[18:10]that there is a safe nervous system
[18:12]that's functioning in the room.
[18:14]And also that it's not scary to feel big feelings.
[18:18]I'm just soaking this in for myself.
[18:20]I'm like, okay, this is great.
[18:24]Thank you.
[18:25]But listen, I mean, we all get dysregulated
[18:28]and we have to know what things set us off.
[18:31]I think it's really funny when you look at partners
[18:33]and you think how come they did not care at all
[18:37]about whatever, maybe one child says something
[18:40]in a flippant way or one child's freaking out
[18:42]because somebody was mean to them at school
[18:45]or whatever it is.
[18:45]And you can see one person hearing the same story
[18:50]doesn't have the same system set off.
[18:54]So that's when you go back to your like,
[18:57]all right, because this isn't a thing for you.
[19:00]This is not, I don't love the word trigger,
[19:02]but for the purposes here,
[19:04]like this is not a trigger for you.
[19:05]So you can co-regulate because you're not worried about it.
[19:10]Whereas I'm here, like, oh my God,
[19:13]this reminds me of the time.
[19:14]I was so horrible.
[19:15]I don't want my kids to experience that or whatever it is.
[19:18]And so I think it's interesting just to see
[19:20]that different people respond to that sense of like,
[19:24]there's an emergency to different things.
[19:28]You love it.
[19:29]Well, in the book, you really tackle like the whole
[19:32]kind of childhood span all the way
[19:34]through hormonal changes and differences
[19:36]and fabulous Q&A section and all of that.
[19:40]As you wrote it,
[19:42]how did you, and what was it like for you to write this book?
[19:45]You know, how did you decide to structure it the way you did?
[19:48]How did you know what to leave it, put in what to leave out,
[19:51]and did you enjoy writing a book?
[19:53]I enjoyed the process much more than I enjoy this part
[19:58]of like telling people to.
[20:00]get the book, like the solitude of just like sitting down
[20:07]and thinking about what really matters in my field
[20:10]and what really matters as a mother and all of the things.
[20:14]That was fun.
[20:15]I'm lucky enough to have, I had a lot of content already.
[20:19]So I needed to sift through and really figure out,
[20:22]like if you had no time.
[20:24]So I had to figure out what really needed to be,
[20:27]what I felt like was under one roof for a parent who's like,
[20:31]I just need to grab this.
[20:33]I need to look up this one thing
[20:35]and then I don't want to look at this again for a year
[20:38]or whatever.
[20:39]So I wanted to structure it so that you could kind of say,
[20:43]either I'm really curious about the science
[20:46]or I really want to just go to this one topic or one age.
[20:50]And I felt like I wanted there to be fluency
[20:54]so that it wasn't like you have to memorize scripts
[20:57]or learn about everything under the sun.
[21:02]And so I wanted to choose something
[21:05]that you could replicate from birth throughout a lessons.
[21:08]The same thing over and over again,
[21:10]responding in the same way.
[21:12]Just developmentally shifted for your child's age
[21:16]and for your own personality.
[21:18]And so in order to do that,
[21:20]I really wanted to have a framework
[21:23]that was manageable, like five principles.
[21:27]And then I wanted to think about like,
[21:29]okay, what are all of the pain points
[21:31]that come up over the years?
[21:32]Like what do I hear constantly by age?
[21:36]And that was kind of how I did it.
[21:40]All right, I like it.
[21:43]Do you ever find it hard when you watch people
[21:46]in the act of parenting and see disaster moments?
[21:50]Like, do you want to go say like, actually,
[21:53]this is the moment you might want to handle this?
[21:56]I'm just going to say, no, this is the moment.
[22:00]Occasionally I think like I really feel like it would be so neat
[22:05]if we lived in a world where that would come across
[22:07]in a helpful way.
[22:08]But since I know it would just make a person feel so ashamed
[22:12]and so annoyed, I don't say anything.
[22:16]And do you feel like this extra layer of,
[22:20]I don't know, trying to be the perfect parent
[22:23]since you know all this stuff?
[22:25]No, I actually feel and my kids will make fun of me
[22:28]all the time for this.
[22:29]And they're like, they want to have like a bloopers
[22:31]reel of me and like all the crappy parenting I do.
[22:34]But I believe in my bones what I say in the research,
[22:37]which is good enough is good enough.
[22:39]And if anything, that perfection is the enemy
[22:43]of good parenting.
[22:44]So when I make mistakes, I genuinely believe it's part of growth
[22:49]and it's part of my kids knowing that we are not perfect
[22:52]and we are not asking our kids to be perfect,
[22:55]that the goal is not possible.
[22:57]And so they can let go of it before, you know,
[23:02]especially because I have two daughters,
[23:04]they're higher risk for that kind of thing.
[23:06]And so I would say I am more gentle with myself
[23:10]and more self-compassionate because I know
[23:14]that a lot of stuff doesn't matter.
[23:16]And so I don't fixate on it.
[23:18]Now, there are some people that might be like horrified
[23:23]because I'm like, that doesn't really matter.
[23:26]So I'm not doing it.
[23:27]But it's more like I'm gentle on myself
[23:31]because I really believe that the science allows
[23:33]for that space and I need it.
[23:37]But I love my kids so much.
[23:39]And I have grown as a parent and a person the more I,
[23:44]you know, of all this a parent and a person.
[23:46]So I look back at things from when they were younger
[23:48]and feel like very cringy,
[23:50]but I do forgive myself in a way
[23:52]that I think the science supports and helps me with.
[23:56]And I don't have that sense of like,
[23:58]I have to have this perfect and my kids
[24:00]have to be perfect because I'm setting an example.
[24:03]In fact, I have on a number of occasions,
[24:06]my kids, more when they were little,
[24:09]like when I used to have groups at home.
[24:13]And I remember once my daughter was like,
[24:15]mom, I opened the door for all of the people in your group
[24:19]because I bumped into them downstairs.
[24:21]And I knew that they needed to see that I was nice.
[24:23]And I was like, oh my God.
[24:26]That's so awful.
[24:29]So I really have tried to stress to them like,
[24:32]who you are is not related to my work.
[24:36]And I'm not getting fired because you have a misstep.
[24:39]And I say that to them all the time
[24:41]because that is a much bigger worry for me
[24:44]is not that my parenting is gonna have mistakes
[24:47]because it just doesn't I accept that?
[24:49]Like literally constantly.
[24:51]I, the only for me, the only liability is I can see that,
[24:56]like I can look outside myself, watch myself making a mistake
[24:59]and watch myself make the conscious decision
[25:02]to like just keep making it.
[25:04]And I don't love that, you know,
[25:07]because it's like sometimes that's too much information
[25:09]where you can just be like, wow,
[25:11]if I were in graduate school,
[25:13]I used to code video tape interactions
[25:16]between mothers and children.
[25:18]I do, yes.
[25:20]But then as I grew up as a parent, I was like, man,
[25:25]if I were coding this moment,
[25:27]it would not be a great score.
[25:30]But that bothers me less than when my kids think
[25:33]that somehow there, anything about their development,
[25:39]needs to be different because of my job.
[25:43]Then I feel like, oh my God, what have I done to you?
[25:46]So that's why I didn't talk about high schoolers in this book
[25:49]because I didn't want anything to go beyond
[25:53]what my kids, you know, where my kids are right now.
[25:56]Interesting.
[25:57]Okay, so to wrap up, what advice would you give
[26:00]to aspiring authors?
[26:05]That was such a terrible sound.
[26:06]That was a huge eye roll on Elisa's part,
[26:09]by the way, at that question, like with the sound.
[26:12]Eye roll plus side.
[26:13]We can skip the question.
[26:15]No, it's, I just don't, it's funny.
[26:19]I think of my, I don't think of myself as an author.
[26:23]I think of myself as a developmental psychologist,
[26:26]but who wrote something, which is so weird.
[26:30]Because you're right, I guess now I'm an author,
[26:34]but I haven't really heard or thought about it in that way.
[26:37]So I guess I have to think about it.
[26:39]That's really interesting.
[26:40]It's just not a way I identify myself,
[26:44]but it's so new.
[26:45]Like I'm a little giddy adhering it.
[26:48]You should, yeah, it's exciting, it's very exciting.
[26:50]But I don't have groundbreaking advice
[26:52]because I'm still kind of absorbing the idea
[26:55]that this is something that I do.
[26:58]So take it with, you know, I guess the advice is,
[27:03]give yourself time and permission to celebrate
[27:06]your own accomplishments a lot more.
[27:08]Yeah, there you go.
[27:10]Okay.
[27:12]Well, Elisa, congratulations.
[27:13]The book is great.
[27:14]I just know it's gonna fly off the shelves.
[27:16]Everyone's gonna get this book.
[27:17]The five principles of parenting.
[27:18]Great for all ages.
[27:20]Thank you so much.
[27:21]Thank you for having me.
[27:23]This was a delight, so thanks.
[27:24]You're a delight.
[27:25]Thank you so much.
[27:27]Thank you.
[27:28]Bye.
[27:29]Bye.
[27:29]Thanks for listening to this episode
[27:32]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:34]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[27:36]at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:39]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zebioans.com
[27:42]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:43]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:46]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[27:47]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[27:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:52]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.