Bess Kalb, BUFFALO FLUFFALO
[0:04]Welcome to mom's don't have time to be books with Zivi.
[0:07]I'm the host, Zivi Owens, I am an author, my latest is blank, pub date march first and
[0:13]novel.
[0:14]I'm also a podcaster, obviously, a publisher, a bookstore owner, and so much more.
[0:19]If you love books, you're in the right place.
[0:21]In fact, we call it the Ziviverse, or really, the LA Times called it the Ziviverse,
[0:26]and we're going with it.
[0:27]Go to Zivi Owens.com to learn more and follow me on Instagram at Zivi Owens.
[0:33]S. Culv is the author of Buffalo, Fuflo, best is an Emmy-nominated comedy writer and
[0:38]the best-selling author of Nobody Will Tell You This But Me, a New York Times editor's
[0:43]choice.
[0:44]She wrote for eight years on Jimmy Kimmel Live and has written for the Emmy Awards, the Academy
[0:49]Awards, and the 2020 Democratic National Convention.
[0:52]She is the head writer and executive producer of the WGA Award-nominated Yearly Departed,
[0:57]an Amazon Comedy Special, and is currently adapting, nobody will tell you this but me
[1:02]into a feature film with sight-unseen pictures.
[1:05]She lives with her husband and two boys in Brooklyn.
[1:07]This is her debut picture book, find her online, bestcallb.com.
[1:11]Welcome, best.
[1:12]Thanks for coming back on Moms.
[1:13]Don't have time to read books this time to discuss Fuflo, Fuflo.
[1:18]Thank you so much, Zivi.
[1:21]Thank you for fitting me in.
[1:22]Thank you for having me at a such a delight.
[1:24]Now I feel like I have released a book I'm on your podcast, and so it's real.
[1:28]This is it.
[1:29]Without this.
[1:30]Even is it even a book?
[1:31]I mean, I don't know.
[1:32]No.
[1:33]No, I don't know.
[1:34]I don't think they actually, they say the publication date is the day that you come on
[1:38]Moms.
[1:39]Don't have time to read books.
[1:42]Oh, that's so funny.
[1:44]Okay, you have eight million things going on.
[1:47]Why, a children's book?
[1:49]Why this children's book?
[1:50]Where did you come up with Buflo, Fuflo?
[1:52]Tell me the whole story, when did this even originate?
[1:54]All of it.
[1:55]My whole job, my job, if you ask my oldest son, is clown, is making him laugh.
[2:01]Okay.
[2:02]And he's not an easy laugh.
[2:04]I have a kid who you really have to work for the reaction.
[2:08]It's not, he's not an easy audience, which is a nightmare as a comedy writer and a mother.
[2:14]And when he was about 18 months old, my husband got him a book to indoctrinate him about
[2:20]national parks to eventually take him camping.
[2:23]And there was like beautiful vistas, and on one page it was like, and here's the buffalo.
[2:28]And I was reading it to him trying to, you know, be in the agenda with him, and I was like,
[2:32]here's a buffalo.
[2:33]And he looked at me and it was a silly word.
[2:36]And I just sort of went with it and I said, a buffalo fluffalo.
[2:39]And he lost his mind, like, it just for whatever reason was a silly turn of phrase that
[2:45]the word buffalo feels made up.
[2:47]And buffalo fluffalo just took it over the edge.
[2:50]And I was like, okay.
[2:51]I have hit a child's funny bone, that is not a very sensitive funny bone.
[2:56]And so maybe there's something to this.
[2:58]And I also, I'm holding up the book now, but there's this sort of surly face that he's
[3:04]making.
[3:05]And that was based on a picture of my kid making that exact face.
[3:09]There's nobody more serious than the two year old version of my child.
[3:15]And when he was snarling in gnarly and gruff, he was, he really felt it.
[3:19]And as the mom of two boys now, I know how that feeling of I need to act tough.
[3:27]I need to act strong.
[3:29]I need to sort of project this, this invulnerability.
[3:32]And I know how big that is.
[3:35]And I wanted to write a book for him that A, made him laugh.
[3:39]And B, made him realize he doesn't have to act tough.
[3:42]And it's okay to be vulnerable.
[3:44]It's okay to be, to feel how you feel.
[3:46]You can be angry, you can be sad.
[3:49]You can feel upset, but know that when you treat people with kindness and when you let
[3:54]your guard down, the people who love you will love you anyway.
[3:57]So, you know, it came from wanting to give my son something that sort of hit all of his
[4:04]buttons, made him happy, made him feel okay.
[4:07]And that he was enough alone.
[4:09]And then he was enough alone, he really is.
[4:12]Yeah.
[4:13]And I honestly, like, I know you have four kids of your own, you have a couple of sons.
[4:19]When I found out I was pregnant with a boy, so many people got me books that were like
[4:24]little feminist or like Eleanor Roosevelt, a picture biography, which great, important,
[4:32]all of them.
[4:33]And like we have them, they're on both of my kids' shelves.
[4:36]But there wasn't something that was written specifically to resonate with him and to let
[4:43]him know that this is not a book that is pedantic or has an agenda.
[4:49]But the secret agenda that is very pedantic is dismantling toxic masculinity from the
[4:54]inside.
[4:55]And it's really a way to sort of say, I know how the world is telling you you need to act
[5:01]and you need to feel.
[5:02]But sometimes just being the most radical act of empathy is just being a good person and
[5:10]being kind to the people around you.
[5:12]And yeah, I mean, I want to raise a good human and I wrote a book to sort of help to
[5:17]do that.
[5:18]Oh, I'm surprised your publisher did not put the subtitle, dismantling toxic masculinity.
[5:26]My all of my child editors for this book and there was a lot of child labor that went
[5:31]into this book.
[5:32]All of my friends, kids, for editors and test subjects so many times.
[5:36]But most of my editors were little girls and I wrote this for I have a very, very serious.
[5:43]I'm Jewish.
[5:44]We don't really have god daughters, but she's my best friend's daughter.
[5:47]I'm auntie best to her and I wrote it for my Jewish god daughter to make her laugh and help
[5:53]her understand that being tough and feeling and acting tough is definitely not something
[5:59]that is just belonging to one gender.
[6:02]I certainly acted like this as a child.
[6:04]My son is in many ways more of a reflection of me than anybody else.
[6:08]And so I wrote it for her and I wrote it for the girls who helped edit it for a comedy
[6:14]and for relatability and for coziness and I wrote it for all kids to hopefully reflect
[6:19]their feelings back to them in a way that felt real and relatable.
[6:23]You'll love it.
[6:24]Sometimes the funny is the best way in, right?
[6:26]You totally.
[6:27]Active audience.
[6:28]Yes, so where do you think the whole I want to make people laugh thing comes from
[6:37]in and of itself, right?
[6:38]Because this pervades a lot of your work.
[6:41]I forgot every time I talk to you, it's therapy, you know, I am the kid of two very
[6:51]serious people.
[6:53]My dad worked all the time in a very high-stakes situation and dealt with a lot of real sadness
[7:01]as part of his job.
[7:02]My dad ran the intensive care unit at Mount Sinai Hospital where there are 13 beds who
[7:07]are all trying to die.
[7:08]And so every day he would come home with this sort of look on his face, the sort of
[7:14]thousand yards dare I now realize what it is.
[7:16]And every day he would read books to me.
[7:19]He would lose himself in characters and voices.
[7:21]My dad is the funniest person I know and this book is partially dedicated to him.
[7:26]My dad is a fabulous doctor and he's also an amazing nanny.
[7:30]And I grew up as his kid seeing somebody who dealt with so much horror and sadness.
[7:36]He would read me children's books like The Stinky Cheese Man and there was a book
[7:40]Hey Willy See the Pyramids by Myra Kalman and books that were so funny and so great and he
[7:49]did voices for everybody.
[7:51]And I remember thinking, oh, we can go into this comedy world where everything is fine
[7:56]and we're having great time and sort of bond over children's books in my world.
[8:02]They were just books but it sort of set me up for like this being my destiny where I would
[8:07]finally write one that he could read to my kids.
[8:10]And we spoke about my last book.
[8:11]It was a book about grief but it also leaned into comedy because I believe that dealing
[8:17]with serious subjects is something that like I find it's most effective to deal with
[8:23]serious subjects when you balance the humor inherent to life especially in the most
[8:30]dramatic moments with the serious without you know deflecting or covering up from what
[8:35]needs to be said but I think that you go hand in hand all the time whether it's a children's
[8:40]book or an adult book.
[8:41]Yes.
[8:42]And then I feel like people feel guilty about it but you have to find the humor otherwise
[8:45]how do you get through?
[8:46]You know that there's no offsetting it's just the darkness totally like your podcast
[8:51]studio here.
[8:52]Oh my god, I mean this is a real, I feel like I'm truly speaking to him like the back
[8:58]of them I know it really is the kind of thing that there are so many books that I read
[9:05]my kids and I am a fan of children's books like I get really into them and I look forward
[9:10]to story time every night with my kids but there are some that I'm like ah this was written
[9:14]with an agenda or with a mission like this is this is a little bit hitting everybody
[9:19]over the head.
[9:20]And then some that I remember from my childhood that I'm like oh this one is so lovely
[9:24]it's about giving I'm like well this tree needed boundaries and she was like you have
[9:35]my permission to take my branches this is what it's like to be in a relationship with
[9:41]the narcissist totally, totally who will not change yes thank you tree for teaching a
[9:50]thing that you're teaching is that totally there's there's wisdom in a lesson and even
[9:53]the ones that you feel like you have not stood the test of time but truly I was trying
[9:59]to write one that.
[10:00]about the message across, but in a way that
[10:01]my kids excited to read it and made parents laugh.
[10:04]Yeah, well, we all need laughter,
[10:06]especially in dark times and you've been so great
[10:11]about the things you've posted,
[10:12]which also have a mix of humor and horror regularly.
[10:16]So I really appreciate from the beginning.
[10:19]You've been just so regular and the way you craft your notes.
[10:23]It's like little essays all the time,
[10:25]little vignettes and it's amazing.
[10:27]Anyway, thank you.
[10:28]You know, that's, I think there is something,
[10:31]especially in the past few months, for comedy,
[10:34]where I've found that, you know,
[10:36]even in this horrible, dark time in the world,
[10:40]there are moments that without minimizing suffering,
[10:44]there are ways to remember how connected we are through comedy.
[10:48]And there is sort of a shared language
[10:51]and a shared understanding through comedy
[10:53]that I think brings us together.
[10:55]Can feel very healing as well for a comedy writer
[10:58]just to write it.
[10:59]So I'm glad it's resonated.
[11:00]It's helpful for me.
[11:01]Yes.
[11:02]And I saw that since we talked last time,
[11:06]your book is being adapted for film.
[11:08]That is so fun.
[11:09]Yes. Tell me all about it.
[11:11]That is so exciting.
[11:12]That is what I am working on upstairs.
[11:15]Nobody will tell you this but me is my adult book
[11:18]and there is a brilliant director, Elizabeth Chobgo,
[11:21]attached to it and a great production company
[11:24]site unseen pictures.
[11:25]And, you know, we sort of survived the writer's strike
[11:28]and now our back to bringing my grandma Bobby
[11:32]to the screen, which is sort of where she's always blog.
[11:34]Yeah.
[11:35]And are you adapting it yourself?
[11:37]With Elizabeth.
[11:38]With Elizabeth.
[11:39]Okay. Yeah, yeah.
[11:40]Yeah, she's a brilliant writer.
[11:41]And so now I think she's the true director.
[11:43]Sorry, I think she's both.
[11:44]Sorry, she's a director and co-writer of it.
[11:47]Got it.
[11:48]And I'm going through and doing a dialogue pass right now,
[11:52]which is living with my grandma and my head again.
[11:55]And it's surprisingly, I mean,
[11:57]talking about like writing cathartically,
[12:00]it really has been in a way that the book was very like crying
[12:04]in my desk, a labor of deep emotion and like unearthing grief
[12:09]and being connected to my family.
[12:11]This feels like so much lighter,
[12:15]even though it goes to exactly the same places of grief
[12:17]that the book goes for whatever reason,
[12:19]like hearing her voice being just in the dialogue
[12:22]makes it so much funnier.
[12:24]I feel like it's a much funnier movie
[12:26]than the book was a funny book.
[12:28]Wow, I mean, it was a funny book though.
[12:30]Yeah, totally, I mean, I'm glad.
[12:33]I mean, I think maybe my experience is just different.
[12:36]I cried a lot writing the book
[12:37]and I am laughing a lot writing the movie.
[12:39]Okay. All right.
[12:41]Well, excellent.
[12:43]Yeah, I'm trying to even think of which grandmother of mine
[12:47]would most want to have a movie written about her,
[12:49]but I feel like it might be a tie.
[12:52]Oh, what grandmother doesn't?
[12:54]I mean, I also am really thinking about my grandma's mom,
[12:59]my great grandmother, who was always at the movies.
[13:03]She was somebody who like, where she lived in Brooklyn
[13:07]in the turn of the century,
[13:09]the coldest place you could go on a hot day was movie theater.
[13:12]And so she would pay a nickel and sit there all day
[13:15]and see every movie.
[13:16]And so she became the cinephile,
[13:18]basically out of like a poverty need to be in the free-on air.
[13:22]She was always at the movie.
[13:24]She became obsessed with them.
[13:25]And so this really does feel like a fitting tribute to her,
[13:28]like now she'll be on film.
[13:30]Wow.
[13:31]Is there like another book in the children's book thing?
[13:35]Are you going to rhyme two more things?
[13:37]She, and I can't even think of anything funny.
[13:39]That's the worst, so the worst I could actually think of,
[13:43]especially because there are eight million books
[13:45]about sheep, but anyway, maybe some other.
[13:47]But you've written children's books.
[13:49]You are also like a pioneer in this space.
[13:52]Oh, it's so charming.
[13:54]Oh God, I would not go out of pioneer.
[13:58]No, but I feel like you could just go down this,
[14:01]this whole like rhyming animal thing.
[14:04]Totally.
[14:05]I mean, I don't know if I'm, I think I'm allowed.
[14:07]It hasn't been announced yet.
[14:09]All right.
[14:09]You heard it here first.
[14:12]So even before Buffalo Fluffalo came out,
[14:15]I sold the sequel.
[14:16]So there is another Buffalo Fluffalo story, doesn't it?
[14:21]At the end of this, when he's getting hugged and kissed,
[14:23]there is a book based on my second son that's coming out
[14:26]that involves another little person
[14:27]who enters Buffalo Fluffalo's life.
[14:30]Again, written out of necessity to explain
[14:31]to my oldest child what was happening
[14:33]when I got pregnant again.
[14:35]I'm having this flash forward of you
[14:37]like getting your kids ready for college,
[14:39]and you're like, and you're like,
[14:41]and you're like, really with the peer pressure
[14:44]and managing your finances, Buffalo Fluffalo.
[14:47]Exactly, exactly.
[14:48]I'm like, what predatory loans are?
[14:50]Yes.
[14:53]Yeah, Buffalo Fluffalo, and going to health services.
[14:56]Yes.
[14:59]I am really writing these books
[15:01]because I cannot parent.
[15:03]I need to have a cartoon buffalo do it for me.
[15:05]Yes, good.
[15:07]It's totally normal and healthy.
[15:08]Okay.
[15:09]Moving on.
[15:12]Oh my gosh.
[15:13]And tell me about your other, your Amazon TV series
[15:17]that you're working on too, like all these different things.
[15:19]Tell me about that.
[15:21]You know, when I have to write on children's applications
[15:25]or forms or anything, like mother's job,
[15:27]it's just sort of like, I'm sure you go through this.
[15:31]It's like writer, which sounds made up,
[15:33]but I like to write stories that I kind of do in one,
[15:41]in like one burst of inspiration
[15:43]where it kind of has to come out
[15:44]and this is exactly what I should be writing.
[15:47]And so that's taken a few different forms.
[15:49]There is the adult book.
[15:51]There's this.
[15:52]There was a comedy special on Amazon.
[15:54]Now there's other TV shows that I'm working on,
[15:57]but they all sort of center around similar themes,
[15:59]which is like a little serious with the comedy.
[16:02]And there is a message and I feel very lucky
[16:05]to have worked in both TV and book writing.
[16:08]And I hope to keep doing that.
[16:10]And to never really wear one hat.
[16:12]It's just depends on how the story is supposed to be told.
[16:16]and who will commission me to write it.
[16:19]So I think I feel most true to myself when I'm being an author
[16:24]and it's something that I've spoken about before,
[16:27]but TV always feels like someone else's world,
[16:31]but the solitary act of sitting down
[16:34]and writing something and it exists just between you
[16:37]and your screen or your notebook,
[16:39]like that to me feels like the purest form of writing
[16:42]without studio notes.
[16:44]But you know, the pricing paper that is that you have to wait
[16:48]like two years for it to come out.
[16:50]Yeah, it's glacial, but I love it.
[16:52]And I love being a children's book author now.
[16:55]I loved working with an illustrator.
[16:56]That was so great.
[16:58]Yes, and I saw your illustrator is known
[17:00]for her woodworking, right?
[17:01]She is, she's brilliant.
[17:04]She's so talented.
[17:05]She's a woodblock artist.
[17:07]So she carved these pictures.
[17:10]So she's like, there's a template in my son's room.
[17:13]I have the original etching of Buffalo Fluffalo,
[17:16]which was the first place that we see him,
[17:19]which is this, this sort of angry buffalo,
[17:23]is carved out of wood and then scanned into her computer
[17:26]and so she's able to modify him for all the other pages.
[17:29]But Aaron Cron is a Canadian illustrator.
[17:33]I was lucky the publisher set me up with her
[17:35]and she's captured both the silliness and the whimsy
[17:39]but also the real emotion on everybody's faces.
[17:41]And she also really just depicts the natural world
[17:44]in this very lush and just this very picturesque,
[17:48]beautiful way that it feels like I want to frame
[17:51]lots of these pages just for the art
[17:53]and just for like the background work.
[17:56]So I'm getting a vision of your son's rooms now.
[17:59]Totally.
[18:01]Buffalo Fluffalo wallpaper.
[18:02]You know, he's my poor kid.
[18:04]He's like, he's like, this is my third favorite book
[18:06]behind three about, we're going to do about it like trucks.
[18:10]I can't win.
[18:14]Do you have like a tour coming for the children's book?
[18:18]Where are you going?
[18:18]What are you excited to do?
[18:19]So my whole tour was canceled for,
[18:23]nobody will tell you this but me.
[18:24]My book was released March 17th, 2020.
[18:28]And so everything collapsed, no tour, no, no anything.
[18:33]And so this is my first ever book tour
[18:35]and I'm reading to four and five year olds
[18:38]and it has been delightful.
[18:40]I could not ask for better audiences for now.
[18:43]I'm in New York and then in February,
[18:45]I'm going to Connecticut, New Jersey
[18:48]and then we're probably going to Boston and DC
[18:52]and then hopefully LA and I'm so excited about it.
[18:56]It really is just, I think it's the best live feedback
[18:59]I can get as a writer.
[19:01]It's the best editorial staff I could have
[19:04]or like the children in the audience
[19:05]because you see immediately what hits.
[19:07]You see when people start to zone out and fidget
[19:09]and you just become much more included
[19:12]to what a readership wants out of you.
[19:14]Kids have, you know, for better or for worse, no filter
[19:18]and it's a really amazing book tour audience to have.
[19:21]I felt like when I was doing some events
[19:24]for my children's book, I was like,
[19:27]it was just very humbling because they would just
[19:30]get up and walk away in the middle.
[19:32]You know, I'm like, yeah, literally like,
[19:35]I can't even get you to listen for five minutes, you know?
[19:38]I mean, I come from a comedy writing world.
[19:41]So I have dealt with so many meaner situations than that.
[19:45]Of course, at least this isn't out of ego
[19:47]or something, this is just like a pure like,
[19:49]you know what, something's over there
[19:51]that reminds me of my dog.
[19:52]It's like, I can deal with that.
[19:54]So I mean, I'm shocked by the questions that I get.
[19:57]I don't know if you had this like the, just,
[19:59]I mean, the,
[20:00]unvarnished.
[20:00]I'm sure it's what like my sense preschool teacher deals
[20:03]with all day.
[20:04]But like I did a Q&A recently at PS 183,
[20:07]which was an amazing school.
[20:08]And I was really happy to go there.
[20:10]And these kids were so smart.
[20:12]And I had a little girl ask me.
[20:15]She was like, well, why is he angry?
[20:17]And I was like, oh, I think he feels like he has to act tough
[20:20]because he doesn't want to show people his true feelings.
[20:22]And she was like, she was not satisfied.
[20:24]She was like, well, why was he acting mean when he was angry?
[20:27]And it got into this like philosophical conversation
[20:31]that ended me being like.
[20:33]And when he realizes he needs to be kind,
[20:35]he gets kindness and return.
[20:36]And when you put kindness into the world,
[20:38]you get kindness back.
[20:39]And she was like, but that's not kind to be kind just
[20:41]so people are kind to you.
[20:42]And I was like, no, you're fully right.
[20:44]I'm like, I know.
[20:46]I know.
[20:46]Like it's more about like setting an intention.
[20:49]And like it should be genuine.
[20:50]But it was really like I'm getting grilled by these kids.
[20:55]And it is so refreshing and great.
[20:59]And I love it.
[21:00]You're like, I'm just putting out some good karma.
[21:02]OK?
[21:02]Let me just put it out.
[21:03]Yeah, just put it against good karma.
[21:05]Please.
[21:07]She's like, who is that lady who cried, who came to our school?
[21:11]I try to, with these events, I try to have real conversations
[21:15]with the students that are the kids who are at the bookstores.
[21:17]I'm like, sometimes when I ask a very open-ended question,
[21:21]like, did anybody feel angry today?
[21:24]And everyone raises their hand.
[21:25]And then they go around the room and they're saying things
[21:27]that really, as a mother, I feel very touched by like a little
[21:33]boy was like, I feel angry when I feel like nobody's listening to me.
[21:38]And I was like, I totally relate to that.
[21:41]I feel angry when I feel like no one's listening to me.
[21:44]And it was just like, these are small people with huge emotions.
[21:47]And I feel so lucky to be able to like hear them be able to take
[21:51]them seriously.
[21:52]And I go back to my own kids.
[21:54]And I, I sort of like carry the weight of, and the wisdom of all
[21:57]of the kids that I've been around on this book tour and hope it makes me a better
[22:00]mom.
[22:01]Wow.
[22:02]Well, I love that.
[22:03]It's really awesome.
[22:04]And I feel like you should just keep a notebook of the funny things that
[22:07]the other kids say.
[22:08]Totally on the tour.
[22:09]And then the biggest tangent was like, I think I just have to
[22:13]like write a note when I go places which is like, don't bring up pets.
[22:17]Don't bring up, everybody has a pet and everyone has a 20-minute story
[22:20]about their pet.
[22:21]And there's a hundred kids and we don't have time.
[22:24]Yeah.
[22:25]Yeah.
[22:26]That's have to wait outside.
[22:27]Thank you.
[22:28]Yeah.
[22:29]Okay.
[22:30]Well, Beth, thank you so much for coming back on the show and for the book and
[22:35]all of it.
[22:36]So exciting.
[22:37]I'm just like so rooting for you and everything that you're doing.
[22:39]It's really great.
[22:40]Thank you, Zibi.
[22:41]I'm so grateful for you.
[22:42]You've been a champion of all of my books and this is, this is what that's so close
[22:46]to my heart.
[22:47]I really genuinely want to hand it out wherever I go.
[22:50]And I'm glad that it's getting into so many people's hands.
[22:52]It makes me feel very validated as a mother of a buffalo fluffel of myself as well as
[22:59]it.
[23:00]Yes.
[23:01]Thank you, Zibi.
[23:02]Thank you.
[23:03]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[23:07]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[23:11]Books.
[23:12]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[23:16]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[23:19]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[23:20]in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[23:23]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.