Dr. Edith Shiro, THE UNEXPECTED GIFT OF TRAUMA: The Path to Posttraumatic Growth
[0:04]Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Be Books with Zippy.
[0:07]I'm the host, Zippy Owens.
[0:09]I am an author, my latest is blank, pub date march first and novel.
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[0:32]Dr. E. Siro is a clinical psychologist with a private practice in Miami, Florida.
[0:37]She is a co-founder of the Trauma and Resilience Center, and the author, as I said,
[0:42]of the unexpected gift of trauma.
[0:43]The book was a winner of the 2023 International Latino Book Awards
[0:47]from the Hispanic Heritage Literature Organization.
[0:50]Dr. Siro graduated from Catholic University of Venezuela.
[0:54]Later, she got her master's and doctorate degree at Yeshi University in New York,
[0:57]with a postdoctoral specialization in couples and family therapy
[1:01]at the Ackerman Institute for the Family, and further training at the International Trauma Studies
[1:05]Program at NYU.
[1:07]She has been a passionate and dedicated psychologist who specializes in working with families,
[1:11]couples, adults, teenagers, and children.
[1:14]She is on the board of local, national, and international organizations,
[1:17]such as the World Happiness Foundation, Cadena International,
[1:21]H.I.A.S International, a greater Miami Jewish Federation, Jewish Community Center,
[1:25]and other prominent organizations.
[1:27]She was awarded the Hispanic Women of Distinction in 2018,
[1:32]and the Health Innovation Award in 2023 for outstanding service and health care.
[1:36]She has been featured in Women's Health Magazine,
[1:39]healing maps as a guest expert on many podcasts and national media broadcasts,
[1:42]like CNN, CNN, on S.V.E.L.E.
[1:45]in a vision, disappeared to America,
[1:47]I'll use Cafe, Telamundo, and Newevo Dia, Premier Impacto,
[1:52]Factors, Factories, Devoter, I don't speak Spanish, I'm so sorry,
[1:56]Elle Venice, Elano, TVV, Mega TV, and New York One, among others.
[2:01]I'm sorry, I took French in college, I mean I did take it in college,
[2:04]but I took French in school, which was probably a complete waste,
[2:08]because now I can't even read bios for this.
[2:11]Maybe I should take some Spanish classes now.
[2:13]Anyway, welcome Dr. Shiro.
[2:14]Welcome, Dr. Shiro, who is the author of the unexpected gift of trauma,
[2:20]the path to post-traumatic growth.
[2:23]Thank you so much for being here.
[2:24]Thank you Zibi for being here, I'm very excited to be with you.
[2:27]So we met at the Miami Book Fair, after a panel that I did with
[2:32]several Zibi books authors, a lot of it was about grief and talking about post-traumatic
[2:36]growth, and you were like, this is literally what I do.
[2:41]You're like, you need my book, and I'm like, yes, I do.
[2:46]My friends came to me and said, we just so Zibi, how come you went?
[2:49]That's on it, we don't get it.
[2:51]I'm like, I know, I ran to you, I ran to you to say, hey, we need to talk.
[2:57]Well, you were absolutely right.
[3:00]So in your book, you start out by giving the reader your own history of trauma
[3:05]and how you got past that, and I wanted to just read this paragraph if that's okay.
[3:10]You said, my fascination with these questions began in my childhood,
[3:14]and is deeply personal.
[3:15]Every generation on both sides of my family has suffered greatly from trauma.
[3:19]I am the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors who were the only members of their families to
[3:24]get out of the Nazi death camps alive.
[3:26]I'm also the granddaughter of Syrian refugees who fled their home country
[3:30]traveling on foot with their six young children from Aleppo into Israel.
[3:34]My grandmother, heavy with child, gave birth in the blue-dened mountains,
[3:38]and had no choice but to keep going.
[3:41]I'm the daughter of Jewish immigrants who escaped from political, religious,
[3:44]and social persecution and made their way to South America.
[3:47]I've been a minority Jewish woman in Venezuela, and later a minority Latina immigrant
[3:52]studying and working in the United States.
[3:54]I have experienced the impact of migration and multicultural conditions firsthand.
[3:58]I know what it's like to be exposed to discrimination in my own neighborhood in city.
[4:02]This too is trauma.
[4:04]Wow, you've got it from off sides here.
[4:06]Eat it.
[4:08]I actually do.
[4:09]Yeah, I actually do, and at the same time, given all of that,
[4:14]which is intergenerational trauma, historical trauma, developmental trauma.
[4:19]Yes, I've gotten all of that, and I feel it in my body, and Zibi,
[4:24]you know, it comes in my dreams, and I have experiences that I haven't lived in this lifetime,
[4:29]that I feel like as if I have had them.
[4:32]But I want to say that at the same time, there's so much wisdom,
[4:36]so much knowledge, so much culture, so much worldly experiences that I'm also having,
[4:42]that whenever I talk to somebody that comes from anywhere, I can relate in some way, you know?
[4:48]Which also makes me, I'm so grateful and privileged for that, because of the languages that I speak,
[4:55]because of the cultures that I'm connected with, because of the experiences that my ancestors have had.
[4:59]It's almost like I can relate to generality of people in that sense.
[5:04]So I use it as a superpower in some way, you know?
[5:08]You're a healer, that's like your purpose in the world.
[5:11]It's wonderful to see.
[5:13]I feel that it's a very, that's very aligned with who I am, absolutely.
[5:17]Though Post Traumatic Growth has gotten a lot of airtime, if you will, lately,
[5:22]about this new concept of something that people who have gone through trauma
[5:26]know on some level, right?
[5:28]That the world, you can see things a little bit more clearly, and things have more meaning,
[5:33]maybe you're more dialed in on your purpose in life, or, you know, the brighter side of trauma,
[5:38]if you will, which, you know, at some point feels like there is no brighter side, but then what?
[5:43]So tell listeners a little more about Post Traumatic Growth, and how to identify it,
[5:50]prepare for it, the benefits of it, just the whole thing.
[5:54]Yes, yes, yes.
[5:55]And, you know, Post Traumatic Growth, I love talking about that.
[5:58]I've been talking about Post Traumatic Growth for the last 25 years, believe it or not,
[6:03]that was my doctor dissertation on Post Traumatic Growth millions of years ago, and at that time,
[6:10]I think the world was not ready for that topic yet, because we were barely, barely dealing with
[6:15]what trauma was, and barely understanding PTSD as a diagnosis.
[6:21]And, you know, the world, especially the United States, was only, you know, 25 years ago,
[6:25]30 years ago, really acknowledging and recognizing Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
[6:31]So we needed to go through that journey in order to get to where we are today,
[6:35]in which we can embrace more of this thing that is Post Traumatic Growth.
[6:39]What is Post Traumatic Growth?
[6:40]Is the positive consequences that come out of traumatic experiences?
[6:45]And I'm very careful when we talk about that, because some people say,
[6:49]how can you put trauma and growth or positive in the same sentence?
[6:53]And I'm saying that's precisely why I wrote the book, because people, when they experience trauma,
[6:59]when they experience loss, when they experience adversity, and, you know, we've all had big,
[7:04]traumas, little traumas, you know, and you and I can talk a little more about that.
[7:08]We think sometimes that it's a life sentence, that it's that's it, I'm doomed, you know,
[7:13]my husband died, you know, I move countries, there's somebody left me, I'm being bullied,
[7:18]only long, you know, the world is collapsing, there's a war, it's like, okay, it's the end of
[7:24]the story, there's not light at the end of the tunnel. So one of the things that would be very important
[7:28]is to recognize and acknowledge that there's another possibility, that there is some hope out there,
[7:34]that there's a light, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, if we know that that's a possibility,
[7:39]that we can consider, that we can play with, that we can see in vision. So knowing that,
[7:46]even if we can even feel it, even if we can't even recognize it at first, even if we can even
[7:51]like imagine that that's possible, knowing, or at least somebody knowing that that growth is there,
[7:58]or that transformation is there, it's very, very important. So let's say as a psychologist,
[8:04]or as a mother, or as a partner, or as a caretaker, knowing that you were going to help that
[8:10]other person go through a process, because there's something else that is positive, that is
[8:15]transformational, that is transcendent, I think really changes the game, and it makes, you know,
[8:21]makes for something to move forward to. And the way I talk about it is in five stages, and these five
[8:27]stages, I didn't invent them, this is me working with people, with groups, with communities for
[8:32]all these years, and recognizing those five stages and putting them language to it, putting like
[8:38]and understanding, okay, now where am I, in what stage am I, how many more stages do I have to go
[8:43]through, understanding this is a process, understanding that there's some sort of acknowledgement
[8:47]and recognition that this has to happen, and knowing that this transformation is incredible,
[8:53]it's like a quantum leap of a jump in how we can, you know, do things, it's going for breakdowns
[8:59]to breakthroughs. We all need help from breakdowns to break there. Yes, yes. You talk in the book
[9:06]about collective grief, and I feel like there's a lot of that going around right now.
[9:10]Talk more about that, and can we still have post-traumatic growth from a collective trauma?
[9:14]Yes, and that's one of the things that, you know, there's a lot of books about trauma out there.
[9:18]I think one of the things in my book, in the way that I think really in the way that I work,
[9:22]is very systemic, zevy. It's like, you know, I don't know if it's because I'm Jewish,
[9:26]I don't know because I'm more spiritual, I don't know where this is coming from,
[9:29]my also my professional, you know, learning is that I see people in the context,
[9:34]and I see people in community and I see people in relationships. So when something happens to you,
[9:40]there's an interconnectedness that is related to everyone around us. So,
[9:44]collective trauma, the world that we're in right now, that is, you know, extremely traumatic
[9:50]for a lot of us, and for the world, or let's say even the pandemic, it's a collective trauma.
[9:56]The way to go about it is by collective healing.
[10:00]is that recognizing that there's something,
[10:02]some belief system that has been shattered.
[10:05]The way that we understand ourselves,
[10:07]the way that we understand others,
[10:09]the way that we understand the world has been shattered.
[10:12]It's breaking.
[10:13]It's not the same, you know, that happened during COVID, right?
[10:16]It's like, what this,
[10:18]and you mean like this is not who I am
[10:19]or my relationship is not like this
[10:21]or the government is doesn't function this way
[10:23]or the world can be parallel, you know,
[10:25]these are beliefs that we didn't know we had
[10:27]in that they're not longer functioning.
[10:30]So how do we cause and recognize that
[10:34]and radically accept it in order to build a new narrative
[10:39]of ourselves and of others and of the world?
[10:42]You know, and that's where the transformation begins to happen.
[10:46]It's how do we accept it, we validate it as a group,
[10:50]as a community, let's say, let me talk about Venezuela.
[10:53]When the Venezuelan people are fleeing the country
[10:56]and seven million people refugees outside of the country
[11:00]until and unless there's some validation,
[11:02]acknowledgement and recognition of the oppression
[11:05]that has been happening in that culture,
[11:07]of the breaking of the very fabric of who they are, you know,
[11:11]and then really having like a more public validation
[11:15]of that, the healing cannot happen.
[11:17]So yes, we can do individual healings,
[11:19]but as a collective, we need that collective public space
[11:24]to contain that grief and to contain that pain
[11:27]and that wound in order to begin to heal it.
[11:30]So, you know, that happens in communities with leaderships
[11:34]in open spaces and have been doing groups about that,
[11:38]for example, right now working with the parents
[11:41]of the loansholders in Israel and these parents are grieving,
[11:46]they're at a loss, they're in this ambiguous loss place
[11:50]in which they have their kids, but they don't know if they're there,
[11:53]they don't know how long they're gonna be alive,
[11:55]they don't know if they're gonna come back home,
[11:57]do they are they happy, should they be sad,
[11:59]should they be hopeful, you know.
[12:00]So yes, I can see each and every one of their parents alone,
[12:04]but the power of the group in which we're working
[12:07]is so amazing and the healing that is happening
[12:10]between them as a group, then the connection that is going on,
[12:14]it's so powerful that, you know, something else comes up
[12:18]and that's also the collective that needs to happen
[12:21]as the same time.
[12:22]So interesting after the attacks on October 7th,
[12:25]like everybody, I was just rocked like the first month.
[12:29]Like I didn't know what to do and the thing that helped me
[12:32]the most was gathering with a bunch of other women authors
[12:35]and starting this whole artist against antisemitism thing
[12:38]and we did the silent auction and all of that was great
[12:40]and we did raise money and that was, you know,
[12:42]everything was helpful and that was great.
[12:44]But the best part was seeing like all the people
[12:47]who were like, I wanna be a part of this,
[12:49]I wanna volunteer, let's do this together
[12:51]and like getting on a Zoom with so many people
[12:53]and just knowing that you're not alone in it
[12:56]and all the fear that you're part of this whole thing.
[12:59]Like that to me was like intensely therapeutic.
[13:02]Totally, that's exactly what it is.
[13:04]Why? Because trauma is like a bomb that when it falls,
[13:08]it separates, it polarizes and we see it in politics,
[13:12]we see it in not just in countries, we see it in that
[13:14]every day in families, it polarizes people,
[13:17]it fragments the relationships.
[13:19]It isolates you and then you say,
[13:21]well, I'm suffering and you cannot understand
[13:24]what I'm suffering.
[13:25]So with me, you're my enemy and you're, you know,
[13:27]we're separated and that separation, that isolation
[13:30]makes us even more shameful to share our feelings
[13:34]or more not trustworthy to like, you know,
[13:36]we don't trust the other because they're gonna hurt us
[13:39]or because we disagree.
[13:41]And then this is the very thing that creates trunk.
[13:44]That's the thing, it's more than the bomb that falls,
[13:47]is that fragmentation and isolation and separation.
[13:50]It's that thing that says, we're no longer together,
[13:52]we don't have support, there's no one by my side.
[13:55]You know, when a woman is being abused in a relationship
[13:57]with a child is being, you know, sexually abused or moliced,
[14:01]it's not just the event that happens,
[14:03]is that there's no one to talk to,
[14:05]is that how am I even gonna tell this experience
[14:07]to anybody and they're gonna believe me?
[14:09]Or I'm not getting the support that I need
[14:12]in order to overcome this.
[14:14]You know, people that go through difficult experience
[14:16]and have the support, their trauma slows so much easier.
[14:20]The healing goes so much easier than the ones
[14:23]that don't have this kind of support.
[14:25]So you creating a community after October 7th,
[14:29]with such a healing thing.
[14:30]It was a very natural, very organic
[14:33]and more than just the money that you raised or the books,
[14:36]it's that gathering that connectedness
[14:38]that like belonging to something.
[14:40]The same with the groups that have been building here
[14:42]after it's like the parents coming together,
[14:45]you know, the community,
[14:46]let's all do something together for this,
[14:48]but it's that like we're not alone,
[14:50]we're connected, we're not breaking the binds,
[14:52]it's like we're keeping that in life.
[14:53]So that really makes a big difference.
[14:55]Yeah, it's funny, I right before this,
[14:57]I interviewed a woman who specializes
[14:59]in Erica Kestwin workplace community, right?
[15:02]And how basically feeling a part of the group at work
[15:05]leads to more productivity
[15:07]and she studied one study of firefighters
[15:09]who had lunch together and it up saving more lives as a team.
[15:13]And it's exactly what you're saying here.
[15:15]I mean, this is like the secret sauce
[15:18]of getting through trauma, getting through life,
[15:20]of work of everything.
[15:22]Like if we somehow find ourselves,
[15:24]I can imagine people listening being like,
[15:25]yeah, yeah, that's great, but like can't just like snap
[15:28]your fingers and get a community, right?
[15:29]And how do you do this?
[15:31]I think that's the challenge.
[15:32]I remember after college, I was like, wait,
[15:34]so I'm just alone in the world now.
[15:36]Like I'm not a part of anything
[15:37]after a lifetime of being in educational institutions.
[15:40]Like what do I do now?
[15:41]Like my little company, this isn't anything.
[15:43]We work and then I'm like,
[15:45]what am I supposed to do with the rest of my life?
[15:47]You know?
[15:48]Oh, it's a very difficult moment.
[15:50]That's a transition.
[15:51]It's very difficult.
[15:52]Yeah.
[15:52]So for people listening who were like,
[15:55]well, I have had trauma.
[15:56]I am going through a hard time,
[15:57]but I don't know necessarily how to find that group
[16:01]or my people.
[16:02]I mean, I'll say like being a part
[16:04]of this listening community is already a part of something
[16:07]and, you know, being part of anything
[16:09]in this bookish world that I've tried to create,
[16:12]anyone listening is a part of a community,
[16:13]but for more specific connections
[16:16]and their own individual traumas and everything,
[16:18]how do you recommend people find those groups
[16:22]or find their people like that?
[16:23]No, no, and I really appreciate that question
[16:26]because that jump is not easy.
[16:28]And sometimes it takes people months and years
[16:31]until they're able to do something about it.
[16:33]So one of the things to do the first step
[16:37]is to have this radical acceptance.
[16:39]It's like sitting with yourself,
[16:40]looking at yourself in the mirror.
[16:42]I think it's a very intimate and brave experience.
[16:44]So say, you know what?
[16:46]Let me be radically honest with myself.
[16:49]I am addicted.
[16:50]I am depressed.
[16:51]I am going through something horrible.
[16:54]I am vulnerable.
[16:55]I surrender to what's happening to me.
[16:58]I can no longer continue my repetitive behavior
[17:01]that you know what I'm talking about, ZV.
[17:03]We all have this.
[17:04]It's like we do the repetitive thing
[17:06]and we keep doing it and we can't get out of this cycle
[17:09]and keep going through the same relationships
[17:11]or we keep having the same behavior.
[17:13]They're like, okay, today I'm not gonna do that.
[17:15]Then you fall into that again.
[17:17]It's really stopping that for a moment,
[17:19]even pausing for a moment
[17:20]and recognizing that that's what's going on
[17:23]and having that really, really honest conversation
[17:25]with yourself and say, you know what, let me accept that.
[17:28]Once you do that and you're able to be radically honest
[17:32]and radically clear with yourself,
[17:34]that's when you go into the second stage
[17:37]which is giving yourself the permission
[17:38]to ask for help and to extend that hand and say,
[17:42]you know what, I can't do this alone.
[17:45]Let me just make one phone call.
[17:47]Let me just talk to one person.
[17:49]Let me find my yoga teacher
[17:51]and just tell my yoga teacher what happens
[17:53]or let me go on a retreat and see if I can do,
[17:56]or let me tell my family member or my best friend
[18:00]and that's how it begins to build that asking for help
[18:04]and that looking for that support and protection.
[18:08]That second stage of support and protection
[18:10]is extremely important because that's when you begin
[18:12]to feel contained and feel safe
[18:15]and that can be in the form of therapy
[18:17]but it can be also in the form of both community,
[18:20]a book club in which people talk which other
[18:22]and then you're gonna have an opportunity
[18:24]to maybe say something about yourself
[18:26]and understand something more about yourself
[18:28]and see what the other person did about it
[18:30]that is different than yours or the same
[18:32]or it can be in the form of a retreat
[18:34]or it can be in the form of a sports group
[18:36]that you join and but it's like this is how you begin
[18:40]to like find yourself and slowly ask for that help.
[18:44]Obviously, therapy is a really good way to go about it
[18:47]because then you have that way of being validated
[18:51]and being accepted and recognized
[18:53]which is so, so important for them to open up for the healing.
[18:56]And then it goes into like, you know,
[18:58]the third stage which is really opening up
[19:00]for new stories, new narrative, new ways, new perspectives
[19:03]to look at your story, look at yourself.
[19:06]You know, when you go through a big trauma,
[19:08]this is the opportunity to say,
[19:10]I can let go of the things that I used to do
[19:12]in the way that I was and I'm opening up
[19:15]for new ways of seeing the world
[19:17]and books, by the way, are an amazing athlete for that.
[19:23]People begin to read books that they were reading before
[19:26]to listen to podcasts that they were reading.
[19:28]My patients are like, you know,
[19:29]saying like, I'm trying out this thing,
[19:32]I love to listen to this other podcast
[19:34]and I'm listening every day.
[19:35]I'm going away on the with this group.
[19:37]It's like trying out new clothes, new dresses,
[19:40]new customs to see what fits
[19:42]because the ones that you've wear,
[19:43]you had before no longer, no longer work.
[19:46]It's like they're broken, you know, it's broken, it's dead.
[19:49]And this is when also people become more spiritual.
[19:52]Some people have got more of a path of spirituality
[19:54]not necessarily religion, but more spirituality.
[19:57]And then you go into this fourth stage of integrity.
[20:00]and then you really integrate your old self with your new self.
[20:03]It's like your whole story.
[20:04]You know, you're not just this new thing,
[20:07]but you're able to see what happened to you
[20:09]and talk about what happened to you
[20:11]without being retromatized.
[20:12]You can talk about that loss that you had
[20:15]or that breakout that you had
[20:16]or that painful experience that you had,
[20:19]but you can see it without having all those overwhelming feelings
[20:22]again. So, you know, I was in a relationship that was abusive
[20:26]or yes, I got divorced and this is what happened
[20:28]or, you know, I really had about experiencing childhood,
[20:31]but I'm also this, you know, and you integrate it
[20:34]into your whole self, which allows you to then go into
[20:37]the wisdom and growth, which is the fifth stage.
[20:40]And that stage, I'm sure you've experienced this
[20:43]and I would love to hear about your story
[20:45]because you have such an example of postramatic growth.
[20:47]You're such a perfect example of postramatic growth,
[20:49]say this, it's like how your relationships are
[20:52]that they're more meaningful.
[20:53]Your connections are more meaningful.
[20:55]Your priorities are more clear.
[20:58]You know what you know, what you like,
[21:00]what you don't like, where you're going.
[21:02]A lot of people become very clear in their life purpose.
[21:05]All of a sudden, you see there's a mission there.
[21:08]It's like the medicine is in the wound.
[21:11]It's like, you know, the medicine already
[21:12]because you've been in the wound and from that place,
[21:15]you have the medicine.
[21:17]People become more spiritual and that spirituality
[21:20]that connected that feeling that you are not alone
[21:22]that you're part of like a bigger thing
[21:25]that it's something bigger than yourself.
[21:26]And that's not necessarily religion.
[21:28]It's more like human beings.
[21:30]You're part of this humanity that is more truthful
[21:34]and more meaningful.
[21:35]There's actually even like physical ways of measuring
[21:40]that spirituality in the brain.
[21:42]And it becomes a protective factor for future trauma,
[21:45]which is beautiful.
[21:46]I'm super excited when I write about that in the book
[21:50]and when I talk about it because it's like,
[21:51]these are the elements that would help you
[21:54]for the next situation that happens
[21:56]to be so much more protected, resilient,
[21:59]so much more in the growth in the wisdom stage
[22:02]and say, I can handle this.
[22:03]I've been through something very difficult.
[22:05]I can handle the next thing.
[22:06]I've developed resources.
[22:08]So you're in a different stage of being,
[22:10]that doesn't mean that you're not gonna suffer again
[22:11]or go through pain again or have difficulty again.
[22:14]But there's something that has shifted inside of you
[22:16]that it's very means.
[22:18]Like what I always say to my older daughter,
[22:20]like you've done it before and you can do it again.
[22:22]I absolutely have to use your stuff at the model.
[22:25]You know, when you were talking about different groups
[22:28]and finding your way in therapy
[22:30]and I was thinking also about Facebook groups,
[22:32]which I know aren't exactly like new and riveting advice.
[22:37]But it's something so easy.
[22:39]You can do with just a click
[22:41]and all of a sudden you're in a group
[22:43]and you see how many people are in the groove.
[22:45]And you're, it's like,
[22:47]I don't know.
[22:48]I think Facebook groups can be really helpful.
[22:51]Absolutely.
[22:52]Also, you know what, yesterday I was having a therapy
[22:54]with this wonderful woman
[22:56]that I've been working with for many years.
[22:58]And she works really hard.
[22:59]And she's like, you know what,
[23:00]I need to do something else with my life,
[23:02]but I don't know what.
[23:03]Maybe I'll learn a new language
[23:05]or maybe I need to do more exercises.
[23:07]I do more meditation.
[23:08]And I was like, yeah, that's really good.
[23:10]But this is more of you are improving with yourself
[23:13]in your routine of exercise meditation, that's good.
[23:16]But what is it that you love?
[23:17]What do you love to do?
[23:18]What gives you pleasure?
[23:20]And she said, dancing.
[23:21]And I said, you know what?
[23:23]You're in your great place to find dancing places,
[23:27]go to meet up groups, go to like a dancing academy,
[23:31]join a group that is dancing salsa,
[23:33]I'm meeting, I don't know like a creative dancing, whatever.
[23:37]And she was like, illuminate.
[23:39]It's like the world was illuminated for her
[23:42]because it didn't approach her.
[23:43]And this is creating a new community
[23:45]for her in which she can do something that she loves
[23:48]and also become part of something else.
[23:52]So it's not just the Facebook and the virtual,
[23:55]but also think about what you like,
[23:56]something you like,
[23:57]some hobby that you like, some situation
[23:59]and just join some cause.
[24:02]A lot of the times, I say that the best antidote
[24:05]for depression is serving other people.
[24:07]Pick up the phone and see who's the old lady there
[24:10]that needs some company, you know,
[24:12]the little children, you know that.
[24:15]So being in service completely helps you
[24:18]and makes you be part of a bigger group as well.
[24:21]I say that to my kids also, like when they're,
[24:23]I don't wanna go to school today or I'm sad or whatever.
[24:25]I'm like, your job today is to make someone else feel better.
[24:28]Like you have to make somebody smile,
[24:30]go in there and make somebody smile.
[24:31]That's incredible.
[24:32]That's the challenge.
[24:33]That's so early.
[24:34]I get an owner that that's beautiful.
[24:36]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[24:40]Don't have time to read books.
[24:42]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[24:44]at the Beowans and at Moms.
[24:46]Don't have time to read books.
[24:47]Also sign up for my newsletter at www.zebeowans.com
[24:50]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:51]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:54]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[24:57]for the Sound Editing.
[24:58]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[25:00]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.