Donna Hemans, THE HOUSE OF PLAIN TRUTH: A Novel
[0:04]Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Be Books with Zippy.
[0:07]I'm the host, Zippy Owens, I am an author, my latest is blank, pub date March 1st
[0:12]and novel.
[0:13]I'm also a podcaster, obviously, a publisher, a bookstore owner, and so much more.
[0:19]If you love books, you're in the right place.
[0:21]In fact, we call it the Zippyverse, or really, the LA Times called it the Zippyverse,
[0:26]and we're going with it.
[0:27]Go to Zippy Owens.com to learn more and follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens.
[0:33]Anna Hemmons is the author of the House of Plain Truth, a novel.
[0:37]This is one of our Zippy books.
[0:39]I met Donna when she came on my podcast, actually that's not even true.
[0:42]I met Donna at a lunch, a media lunch, for Red Hand Press, which is where her previous
[0:48]book was published.
[0:49]I went down somewhere in like the 20s or something for a lunch in this dark boardroom
[0:55]type library-ish room, I didn't with about 10 other people, and I met her there and was
[1:02]just enchanted by her and loved the beauty of her writing into you by the sea.
[1:07]I had it on my podcast for that book, and when we got the submission for her next book,
[1:12]I was like, oh my gosh, I loved Donna.
[1:15]We read it.
[1:16]It's gone through a lot of changes, and it is absolutely beautiful if you haven't read
[1:21]it yet.
[1:22]You must pick this book up.
[1:24]It was included in the Roots Most Anticipated Books by Black Authors for 2024, among
[1:31]other round-ups, and has gotten attention from Oprah Daily and others.
[1:36]It's called The House of Plain Truth, and the cover was designed by our own Krasa Tito.
[1:40]Donna Hemmons is the author of two previous novels, River Woman, and Tea by the Sea,
[1:44]which won the Lingnam, Vitai, Una, Marsen Award.
[1:48]Her short fiction and essays have appeared in Electric Literature, Ms. Magazine, and
[1:52]Crab Orch Review, among others.
[1:54]She is also the owner of DC Writers' Room, a co-working studio for writers based in Washington,
[1:58]DC.
[1:59]Born in Jamaica, she lives in Maryland and received her undergraduate degree in English
[2:03]and Media Studies from Fordham University, and an MFA from American University.
[2:08]Welcome, Donna.
[2:09]Thank you so much for coming back on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[2:12]Last time you were here for Tea by the Sea, like 100 years ago, and now you're back
[2:16]as a Zippy Books author for The House of Plain Truth.
[2:19]Welcome.
[2:20]Sure.
[2:21]Thanks for having me.
[2:22]Of course.
[2:23]I never would have imagined back when we first met at that, what was it?
[2:29]Red-hand luncheon or something, is that what it meant?
[2:31]Right.
[2:32]Yeah.
[2:33]It was a luncheon.
[2:34]Yeah.
[2:35]And I was like, wow, she is such a good writer.
[2:36]This is amazing.
[2:37]Life is just unfolded in such a bizarre way.
[2:39]I had no plans to be a publisher.
[2:40]Here we are.
[2:41]Together.
[2:42]It's great.
[2:43]Anyway, tell listeners, please, what The House of Plain Truth is about.
[2:46]So The House of Plain Truth is a story about family secrets, which are triggered when
[2:50]Perley decides to go back to Jamaica to help take care of her sick father.
[2:54]And as he is on his deathbed, he asks her two things, one of which is to find her siblings
[2:59]who had been left behind in Cuba 60 years earlier, and the second is to be his memory.
[3:05]And so Perley has to figure out how those two things are connected.
[3:08]Interesting.
[3:09]So, Donut, how did you come up with the idea for this book?
[3:12]And I know it has shifted a bit since we first read it and all that, but when you first
[3:17]came up with the characters and the ideas and everything, what were you going for?
[3:21]What drove this whole process?
[3:24]I didn't really know there's a lot of Jamaicans who went to Cuba in the early, between
[3:31]1930s, somewhere in that time frame.
[3:34]And my grandparents were among those who went to Cuba, but as a child, I knew that they
[3:40]had lived in Cuba that some of my uncle's and aunts were born in Cuba before they came back
[3:44]to Jamaica, but I didn't know anything at all about the story.
[3:48]Exactly why my grandparents went, what their experiences were like in Cuba, and what made
[3:52]them decide to come back to Jamaica.
[3:54]So that's where this whole idea started.
[3:56]I, you know, my grandparents died, my grandmother, when I was 16 and my grandfather,
[4:01]when I was about 19 or 20.
[4:03]And so, by the time I was, you know, of that age where I was really looking at and looking
[4:08]for family stories in a way that was much more than just sitting our own and talking,
[4:14]but getting that deeper connection and meaning, my grandparents were long gone.
[4:19]So I couldn't ask the questions that I would have asked as a, you know, like 20, 30
[4:24]year old.
[4:25]And so I, you know, wanted to in some ways give them a story, or at least to basically
[4:30]understand what their experience was like.
[4:33]So that, you know, really drove this, this book.
[4:37]And then the second part of it was that my grandmother and her had a brother who went
[4:43]to Cuba and just never came back to Jamaica.
[4:46]And so I, you know, was just trying to understand what would that really be like to just
[4:50]no longer have that connection with the relative who, you know, I just, for all intents
[4:55]and purposes just disappeared.
[4:57]So, you know, there was a lot of that that came out in this book and in Perilene story.
[5:03]Interesting.
[5:04]So did you end up uncovering any more about your own family and any potential family
[5:09]lines in Cuba?
[5:11]Really, the family lines in Cuba know, but I have got bits more.
[5:16]I think once, you know, I start asking and probing, I get a little bit more information
[5:20]from my uncles, but and my father, but nothing, not much, nothing concrete because,
[5:26]you know, I think they were young.
[5:28]And I think there's also, there's so much that I think older generations just simply
[5:32]either didn't talk about and didn't give like all the details that, you know, I would
[5:39]certainly ask or want to ask about today.
[5:42]Well, it's interesting that it came from your grandparents and then Perilene is a grandmother
[5:46]herself in this book and has to wrestle with her born family by, you know, what is that
[5:53]family of origin with her own children and grandchildren in the present day.
[5:59]And who, you know, as part of this whole sandwich generation, I hate that term, but I don't
[6:04]know what else to say when you have parents and kids and grandkids and you're trying to
[6:07]to care for everybody, you know, Perilene does something which I thought was amazing,
[6:11]where she's like, you know what?
[6:12]I'm going.
[6:13]I'm going to go to Jamaica and you guys will be fine, but I have to see my dad one
[6:17]last time.
[6:18]So tell me about that and that decision and where that all came from and what it feels
[6:23]like to be in that spot.
[6:26]I may be two different things or maybe even more, but I think part of it is that, you
[6:30]know, so many immigrants from the Caribbean and probably from everywhere else move to America
[6:36]or wherever they go with the idea that they're going to work and they're going to go
[6:39]back and then have this lovely life in, you know, their home country.
[6:44]And I think that one of the things I've certainly seen, you know, with my own, my uncles
[6:49]and aunts who have lived here for, you know, I don't know, 50 years or however long,
[6:54]is that there is no going back for them.
[6:57]Their friends have all moved on, there's nobody in there, you know, like hometowns,
[7:02]you know, where would they go, what would they do?
[7:05]And so most people just simply don't, but shouldn't say most, a good number of people
[7:08]who wanted to go back just never end up going back.
[7:12]So I think that was the first part of it that I wanted to write about somebody who went
[7:15]back home and I think to a lot of the stories that we read about migration, it's usually
[7:21]the other way.
[7:22]It's the person coming to America as opposed to the person going back home.
[7:27]And you know, I wanted to, you know, look at that story in a somewhat different light.
[7:32]And so I think, you know, what was interesting though is that this part of it, this business
[7:37]about going back came about, you know, like around 2016 and I, you know, I was just writing
[7:41]something about a woman who went back to Jamaica and, you know, I had no idea who this
[7:47]person was, but as I was writing it, I said, this feels like Berlin.
[7:51]This feels like this woman in this book I had been trying to write about for, I don't
[7:56]know, 10, 15 years at that point and I upset the book aside.
[8:00]And so once I got that piece with her actually going back to Jamaica, the story really
[8:06]fell into place.
[8:07]So I just knew that's where she needed to be.
[8:09]This is who was telling the story and this is how this book is just going to work.
[8:14]Wow.
[8:15]And then it was off to the races.
[8:16]So when you had that idea, tell me about a little more about the process of bringing
[8:21]those sections together, but also how you develop character and how you write and infuse
[8:29]your sentences with the beauty that they have and yet also maintain the plot and all that.
[8:34]So what happened then?
[8:36]Like take us through the play by play of what happened with the manuscript at that point?
[8:41]Yeah.
[8:42]That point I had had, I don't know how many versions, they are way more versions than
[8:46]I can count or even want to count of this book.
[8:49]So at that point, once I figured out that Berlin had to tell her own story, I had to go
[8:54]back and figure out what needed to be in that story.
[8:57]What did she know and how could she tell it?
[9:00]So one of the things that I wanted to do certainly was tell a portion of those, their
[9:06]family story that happened in Cuba, Berlin was three years old.
[9:09]There is only so much that she won, truly could remember and there is only so much that
[9:14]her parents probably would have talked about.
[9:17]So a part of the process was just going back and calling through, you know, what I had reshaping
[9:23]and it recasting it so that Berlin could tell the story or her father, or she could tell
[9:28]what her father knew and become his memory as he asked of her.
[9:33]And you know, it's hard, I think for me as a writer to go back and really look at and
[9:39]think through how everything works in somehow it really comes together and it sometimes
[9:44]is a lot of in cutting and pasting and throwing things out.
[9:48]I have a little file called the sink and that's where I drop everything into the sink
[9:53]and then I go back and I move it back into the document.
[9:56]So it's a lot of that just moving it back and forth and figuring.
[10:00]know, you know, what really fits where. And if it doesn't fit, figure
[10:04]note, if it will fit in something else, as opposed to looking rid of it
[10:07]altogether. Like, this paragraph is so great. Where can I put this?
[10:13]I put it. Yeah. So I kind of worried that, you know, when I move things
[10:16]like that, I might end up writing a completely different book and
[10:19]lifting something that I forgot I put in another book. So, you know, in
[10:23]case anybody hears the same thing somewhere else, this is what
[10:26]happened. You can't really like plagiarize yourself, right?
[10:34]I hope not. We'll find out part of this book really examines what
[10:39]home even means, right home to Perlene in Brooklyn, home in
[10:44]Jamaica. What it means to come home, her father's sense of home,
[10:47]going back home, as you say, talk a little bit about that and
[10:51]and how everyone defines home and where you see the role of that in
[10:56]this book. Yeah, I think it's it's one of those things that I think
[10:59]I'm trying to define for myself. Where is home? You know, and I
[11:01]think as somebody who's lived in Jamaica, who was lived here in
[11:04]two different countries, there really is a sense of, you know, where do
[11:08]you belong? There are some times when I go back to Jamaica and I
[11:11]feel like, you know, I have no idea what's happening or why we do
[11:14]things a certain way. And then there are times when I'm here and I'm
[11:17]asking the same question. So, you know, there are lots of little
[11:21]things that we don't often think about in our day to day that
[11:24]really define home. And I think that's what Perlene finds when
[11:28]she goes back to Jamaica, that there is so much that her
[11:31]sisters have accepted and that they do. And there is this
[11:35]house that they have all lived in and that, you know, is home
[11:39]to her. But her sisters don't necessarily have the same kind
[11:43]of interest in holding on to this house. So, is that home? Is it
[11:47]this physical place? And if you get rid of this place that you
[11:50]have known, does that mean that you no longer have a home? Have
[11:53]you lost it? And, you know, so that I think is part of it. The
[11:57]other part is for Perlene, because her family has been in
[12:01]multiple places in Cuba, back in Jamaica, and then she in New
[12:04]York, a lot of it really comes back to wanting this place that
[12:08]is always hers and which nobody can, you know, tell her, you
[12:13]know, you have to go. This is ours. And no matter who you are in
[12:16]the family, no matter what it is that you have done, there is
[12:19]this place that will always welcome you. And that's what
[12:21]Perlene wants. That's what she thinks her parents had wanted. And
[12:25]I think that's what all of us really want. In some place, you
[12:27]know, there is this place, whether it's the family members,
[12:31]you know, your parents or your siblings or some other friend who
[12:35]you have found, who you consider family, who will always
[12:37]welcome you. And so I think in some ways that's what Perlene is
[12:41]searching for. That's what she wants. And she's fighting with
[12:45]her sisters too. I guess in some ways to understand, for them to
[12:49]understand that, you know, it's not just a place, it's not just
[12:52]a, you know, a whole house.
[12:54]Yes. Oh my gosh. I love how you wrote about the sisters and, you
[13:00]know, it's so hard to characterize those intimate family
[13:03]relationships and the fights that you get and all of that. But
[13:06]how you depicted three, you know, women of a certain age still
[13:11]kind of getting into it. You know, I was breaking up a fight
[13:14]with my kids this morning and like the idea that they'll be
[13:16]going through this, you know, for decades. It's like, oh my gosh,
[13:19]seriously. And yet here you have these sisters who are not in the
[13:22]same way. I mean, I hope it wasn't about, you know, watching a
[13:26]YouTube video or something, but still bickering and having
[13:29]differences of opinion. And then who is left to moderate that who
[13:34]there when there's no one left to sort of referee, how do these
[13:38]big conflicts get resolved? And it's such an interesting question.
[13:42]Yeah, it is. I mean, you I guess they are that else now they
[13:45]have to resolve it. Funny thing, I was talking to one of my
[13:48]nieces the other day. And she is 21. And she said, you know,
[13:52]she's know the adult, you know, she is the one who has to begin
[13:56]to start looking at and figuring out how to take care of
[14:00]because, you know, she's 21. And you know, it's just this
[14:03]interesting way of looking at life that, you know, somebody
[14:06]has to be the one in charge at some point. And I don't want to
[14:09]you know, think our start thinking that, you know, it's time to
[14:12]you know, set aside everything and give it over to somebody
[14:16]else. But you know, you know, it's a part of life. That's
[14:19]where it is. And the parents are gone in this case, the
[14:22]children are not necessarily there yet to, you know, because
[14:26]Perlin's daughter is still in Brooklyn at that point. And, you
[14:30]know, she's not there to step in to try to help to, you know,
[14:33]solve that crisis. And they're so the sisters have to do it
[14:36]themselves. But hopefully, you know, if it had continued in
[14:41]some way, you know, I got bigger. Hopefully, the children
[14:43]would have been able to step in. But who knows, maybe not,
[14:46]you know, some fights, you don't want to get into that's true.
[14:49]And actually, I probably shouldn't even be refereeing at
[14:52]the stage anyway. I feel like that's the parenting advice is
[14:54]like, let your kids sort it out. But I don't know, I'm really
[14:57]bad at that. But anyway, wait. So Donna, tell me about more of
[15:01]your life story. So when did you leave Jamaica, like, what
[15:06]happened? You were born. And then what happens?
[15:08]Yeah, I was born. I grew up in Jamaica. I left when I was
[15:10]16, I, you know, finished high school. So it's, I guess it's
[15:14]one of those stories where my parents came to came here and
[15:17]the 60s went to college here. My oldest sister was born here.
[15:20]Then they went back to Jamaica. And I think it was just one of
[15:22]those things where, well, we have one child who, you know, is
[15:26]going back to America to finish her college education. You
[15:29]know, we have to these two other children. What do we do
[15:32]with them? So I think a lot of it was probably more of that
[15:35]kind of a story. So I, you know, finished high school came
[15:38]here, went to college and just stayed.
[15:41]You're so dismissive of it. That's, it's an interesting
[15:44]story. There were probably 8,000 stories in that story. But
[15:47]that's probably our, did you, I know you said you look at
[15:54]things in Jamaica. And then you look at things here critically
[15:56]and neither system is really perfect. How did you feel then do
[16:00]you feel much more of a sense of belonging to either place
[16:04]now? Did you feel like you belong to Jamaica when you lived in
[16:07]Jamaica when your family had been in the United States? Like,
[16:10]just how has that shifted over time for you? That's a good
[16:14]fluctuate. There are times, you know, when I'm in Jamaica, I
[16:16]feel like this is exactly where I need to be and where I belong.
[16:19]And then I, you know, maybe go to the back and try to do some
[16:23]business and I realize like, you know, okay, there are things,
[16:26]there ways to do things better. And, you know, then I come
[16:28]back here and, you know, I, everything feels like, okay, this
[16:32]is where I need to be. So it depends. It depends on where I am
[16:36]and what it is that I need. But I think what I have decided or
[16:41]have figured out is that wherever I am at that moment is where I
[16:45]need to be. I, you know, I don't know that I have any other
[16:49]answer for that or any other way. No, that's perfect because
[16:53]that's like the whole Zen goal, isn't it? Like be where your
[16:57]feet are and all that. So you, you've like, yeah, there you
[17:01]go. You already crushed it without even knowing it. Not even
[17:05]knowing it. Yeah, Zen Master Donna. When did writing come into
[17:08]the picture? I think it was always there in some ways. I
[17:12]started writing. I know definitely in high school, I, you
[17:15]know, would enter any competition that they had any writing
[17:17]competition. And then in undergrad, I, you know, I had this
[17:21]grand idea that I was going to be a lawyer and I was going to go
[17:24]and save all the people who needed to be saved from, you know,
[17:27]everybody else. And so, you know, that was a plan. So I went in,
[17:31]you know, thinking, all right, let me just major in English
[17:33]because that's a good foundation for this law career I was
[17:36]going to have. And took up, you know, creative writing class
[17:40]started added journalism as my dual major and started, you know,
[17:45]took a creative writing class and I liked it. So I started writing
[17:48]wrote some more. And once I graduated, started working in
[17:52]journalism and I, then I started writing what was my first, you
[17:56]know, book, River Woman. And I realized that I knew I had a
[18:01]story. I didn't know exactly how to write this book or how to
[18:04]tell the story and, you know, decided, okay, it's time to leave
[18:07]New York and move to grad and go somewhere and do go to grad
[18:10]school so I can write this book. So that is pretty much how I
[18:15]started writing. Oh, I got here. Not everybody who realizes
[18:20]they have a story decides to go to grad school. Right, that's a,
[18:24]a conscious, obviously choice. So why, why go, why did you decide
[18:29]to do it and do you feel like you learned certain things there
[18:32]that have really helped you or was it the community or was it
[18:35]a little of everything? I think it's a little of everything, the
[18:38]community mostly, but, you know, because I was around journalists
[18:41]and, you know, they were interested in a completely different
[18:43]kind of story, which, you know, while it served its purposes,
[18:47]there was not what I wanted to do or needed in order to write
[18:50]this novel. But I think the thing that I got most out of a
[18:55]creative writing program was not so much about learning how to
[18:58]write, but more about learning how to read. Because I had to be
[19:02]able to step away from the book, read it, understand it,
[19:06]but step away from it or pull myself away from it in order to
[19:10]revise it. And I think that you need to be able to read and read
[19:15]critically or read reading a different way, because I think,
[19:18]you know, in high school and stuff when you read literature,
[19:21]they're, you know, talking about theme and, you know, what did
[19:23]the right of mean and, you know, all of that sort of stuff,
[19:26]but it doesn't necessarily help you when you're trying to
[19:28]write, because if you are thinking too much about theme,
[19:32]you're not thinking about clock, you're not thinking about
[19:34]your characters. And so I think I needed that graduate
[19:37]program to be able to, to read other people's work and by
[19:41]doing that figure out and understand how to read my own work
[19:45]critically. So, you know, I think without that experience,
[19:50]I don't know where I would be, I'm sure I would be writing
[19:53]still, but, you know, I don't know that I would be
[19:56]here in this place. On the Zoom right now.
[20:00]I might be, you know, I don't know, I thought on and become a lawyer, I don't know.
[20:09]For listeners who aren't familiar with your previous works, can you talk about the River Woman and T by the same?
[20:15]So, River Woman is set in Jamaica and it's about a woman who is about to migrate and her son drones.
[20:22]And so it really is about how she and the community deal with the dance of this child.
[20:26]And I've been trying to not kill people in the books that I write, but, you know, that hasn't happened yet.
[20:32]And T by the Sea is about a young woman who's child is taken from her at birth and she spent 17 years looking for her daughter.
[20:42]We know that the outside of the story that the father has taken the child.
[20:45]So, it really is just her trying to find the father and trying to understand one why he took her child.
[20:51]And, you know, I hope, you know, and her hope is to develop a relationship with her daughter.
[20:57]Have you read the leftover woman by Jean Quack just came out recently?
[21:00]No, I haven't.
[21:02]It's different, but similar things, the search for family and giving out the child's and all that.
[21:09]Anyway, you might like it.
[21:12]Your book recommendation of the day, there you go.
[21:15]Are you working on anything now?
[21:17]I am, you know, one of the benefits of, I guess, having all these projects that you set aside is that I can always go back in and pull one out to the drawer and work on it.
[21:26]So, the book I'm working on now is another one.
[21:29]It's actually the second book I started writing.
[21:31]And, you know, for some reason, just couldn't quite figure out how to tell the story as well as I wanted to tell it.
[21:37]And now I think I have finally figured it out.
[21:39]So, I am hoping to finish it up soon.
[21:42]It looks exciting.
[21:43]Well, better that you take it out of the drawer, I think, than taking it out of the sink, right?
[21:47]Is that better?
[21:48]Well, you know, I like both.
[21:50]I mean, the drawers, the drawers, where the stories that are fully formed go.
[21:55]The sink is the bits and pieces that don't quite work, you know.
[22:01]From the drawer in the sink, you'd be like a vlog or something.
[22:05]You know, you'd be like, yeah, it would be fun to do like some sort of Twitter account where people just put senses.
[22:11]That they haven't found a place for, but that are great sentences.
[22:14]You never.
[22:15]Yeah, actually.
[22:16]Yeah.
[22:17]That's a great sentence.
[22:18]Yeah.
[22:19]Yeah.
[22:20]How to fabulous first line of an all of it.
[22:22]I don't know.
[22:23]I can't use this.
[22:24]What about you?
[22:25]Yeah, exactly.
[22:26]Yeah, you're taking it.
[22:27]Well, what do you like to read in your spare time?
[22:29]Well, lately, I've been reading just a lot of Caribbean fiction, you know, because I have embarked on a project to fully, you know, try to understand a little bit more about Caribbean literature.
[22:38]And, you know, it has been fun.
[22:40]So the last book I read was the book of last Saint.
[22:44]And I can't remember the name of the author right now because I don't remember names.
[22:48]But really, it was a really interesting book.
[22:51]And, you know, I highly recommend it.
[22:53]It's, you know, he pulled in a lot of, you know, ghosts and, you know, in order to pull together a modern day story with story about what happened during the Cuban revolution.
[23:04]So it was, you know, really fascinating and interesting book.
[23:07]Well, amazing.
[23:09]What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[23:12]I would say to read and read and read and read a lot.
[23:16]And also to not give up on your stories.
[23:20]There are times, yes, when you may have to set something aside.
[23:24]But I think coming back to it when you're either in a different place or you have really been able to look at and think about it in a different way can be helpful.
[23:35]I think it helps. I, you know, I have heard a lot of people say, oh, no, that's dead. I will never look at it again.
[23:41]But I think sometimes you can take that time step away from it and still find the beauty in it and figure out how to retell the story in a way that works.
[23:52]I love it. Is there anything from Jamaica that you miss in particular, a food, a smell, a place, just something that you're like.
[24:01]If only I could just import, you know, have that be here, then like, I don't know.
[24:07]The beach, the beach, that would be fun.
[24:10]But yeah, I mean, we call them Odeji apples and I can't remember there's another name for it, but it's a little red apple with the, you know, fully white inside.
[24:18]And it's just absolutely delicious.
[24:20]And I, the last few times I went, it was out of season. So I haven't had any. And it's, you know, it's, I have figured out how to tie my trips in order to get near for certain fruits, but not always.
[24:35]So that's amazing. Yeah, the airlines should maybe do a better ad campaign, you know, that's not a bad idea.
[24:44]All right. Well, Donna, congratulations. Thank you. I'm so excited to be a part, a small part of the journey of bringing this beautiful story into the world. How's the plane truth? Congratulations.
[24:55]Thank you. Yeah.
[24:58]Okay. Thank you so much. All right. Bye, Donna. Bye.
[25:02]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:07]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:12]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:19]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[25:23]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.