Erica Keswin, THE RETENTION REVOLUTION: 7 Surprising (and Very Human!) Ways to Keep Employees Connected to Your Company
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[0:32]Erica Kecselin is the author of the retention revolution,
[0:36]seven surprising and very human ways to keep employees connected to your company.
[0:40]Erica is a best-selling author, internationally sought after speaker, workshop facilitator,
[0:45]and workplace strategist.
[0:46]Her human workplace trilogy bring your human to work,
[0:49]tend to share fire ways to design a workplace that's good for people,
[0:52]great for business, and just might change the world.
[0:55]Rituals roadmap, the human way to transform everyday routines into workplace magic,
[0:59]and now the retention revolution, seven surprising and very human ways to keep employees connected
[1:04]to your company, we're all published by McGraw Hill, all three books debuted as Wall Street Journal
[1:08]best-sellers.
[1:10]When Erica isn't writing books and offering keynotes, she coaches top of the class businesses,
[1:14]organizations, and individuals to help them improve their performance by honoring relationships
[1:18]in today's hybrid workplace.
[1:20]Erica is honored to be one of Marshall Goldsmith's top 100 coaches,
[1:24]as well as one of business insiders' most innovative coaches.
[1:27]She's also the founder of the spaghetti project, a roving ritual devoted to sharing the
[1:31]science of stories, of relationships at work.
[1:34]Erica lives in New York City with her husband, Jeff, three children, and her lab-radoodle,
[1:38]cruiser.
[1:38]Welcome, Erica.
[1:39]Thank you so much for coming on mom's.
[1:41]Don't have time to read books to discuss your many beautiful, colorful books.
[1:46]Would go perfectly with my office right behind you.
[1:48]I actually thought the yellow did looks really good.
[1:50]Yes, we have a red, yellow, and green, but beautiful shades.
[1:55]Not that this is important, but because I'm holding them up, I'll talk about it.
[1:58]In my hands, I have bring your human to work, rituals, road map, the retention revolution.
[2:04]Congratulations, and welcome.
[2:06]Thank you.
[2:07]Thank you.
[2:07]Okay, in your books, we have a little bit of yourself in as you tell us
[2:12]sort of how to be better at work and workplace and fostering community and retaining employees
[2:19]and creating a great culture and like all the things that actually I think about all day,
[2:24]because I am in it.
[2:26]So can you go back for a second before we dive into the specific advice and explain
[2:32]how you became this type of an expert?
[2:34]Okay, right.
[2:35]You did not go back in the day, maybe not even now to college, to become a workplace strategist.
[2:42]But I was, I started in management consulting and loved it, but felt like a lot of what I was
[2:47]doing was sitting in a binder on a shelf somewhere.
[2:51]And I decided when I went back to business school to focus more on the people side of business,
[2:57]which I describe as helping companies improve their their bottom line, improve their business
[3:03]through people.
[3:04]And so I worked as an executive coach.
[3:06]I worked at Russell Reynolds and executive recruiting.
[3:09]I, you know, helped people develop performance management programs all the different,
[3:14]you know, the stuff that for many years and maybe sometimes people still say it now is the
[3:19]softer stuff.
[3:20]And I would say in a post COVID AI fast paced world, the soft stuff is the hard stuff
[3:28]and the really important stuff.
[3:30]So that's how I got into it.
[3:33]One other short window is in 1998, I was engaged to mine now.
[3:37]Husband and he asked me to go to Bermuda with him on a to a conference and I said,
[3:42]I can't go.
[3:42]I'm saving my vacation days for our honeymoon, but I had a little square device thing
[3:49]back in the day, which shows my age, but called a blackberry.
[3:52]And I was like, Oh, cool, I could go with my blackberry and sit on the beach and work and help
[3:57]him, you know, see clients at night.
[3:59]And I remember sitting in Bermuda and I said out loud to myself, this is the life.
[4:04]This is the coolest thing.
[4:06]Ten years later, I added this iPhone for the apps, but didn't get rid of my blackberry
[4:11]because for those listeners who had when it was the best phone.
[4:14]And I added a couple of kids to the mix and I'm walking around with my blackberry and my
[4:19]iPhone and in contrast to that moment in Bermuda, I remember saying out loud to myself,
[4:24]I can't believe this is my life like trying to figure out the impact of technology on connection.
[4:32]And so those really are the two things that then motivated me to really begin to look at the,
[4:39]I'm not anti technology.
[4:40]I'm in I'm in Florida, you're in New York.
[4:42]I'm seeing your beautiful office and we're hanging out and having a great conversation.
[4:47]But I also believe that we need to put technology in its place and connect in real life,
[4:52]which hopefully will do one day soon.
[4:54]Yes.
[4:54]Actually, I'll be in Florida in March.
[4:56]So okay, good.
[4:58]So when I was in business school, these were the organizational behavior classes.
[5:01]Is that right?
[5:02]Is that where you are right?
[5:03]I actually got so into this myself that I looked into doing a PhD,
[5:07]MPA PhD program and organizational behavior.
[5:10]I was like, this is amazing.
[5:11]You talk about like how the people at work and I did like a whole study that got published
[5:16]and I was like, so into it.
[5:18]But then I was like, what happens next and what I don't know?
[5:21]So I couldn't I didn't have like a clear model for how to turn that into what would happen to
[5:26]that next. But anyway, you figured it out. So bravo to you.
[5:29]Thank you. Thank you. And I call the I love how you held up to three books.
[5:33]It's now the the human workplace trilogy.
[5:36]That's what I'm that has a lovely ring to it.
[5:39]There you go.
[5:40]Well, I started with bring your human to work.
[5:42]I didn't know if this is the right order.
[5:44]I think it was.
[5:45]But anyway, I started with bring your human to work 10 surefire ways to design a workplace that's
[5:49]good for people great for business and just might change the world.
[5:52]So I have all these things dog year because some of the things I'm doing with my company,
[5:56]but some of the things I want to do in my company and I'm not.
[6:00]In fact, after I read the book, I emailed my whole team.
[6:03]Because you talked a lot about culture and communications and inclusivity and like, you know,
[6:07]how to really live the message that you're saying. And in the book, you talk about like how
[6:12]Jet Blue sets out this great example and of how they even make training something that becomes
[6:20]high touch and sort of ritualize and all these things. Anyway, I emailed the whole team and I
[6:24]was like, you know what, there's this event coming up and I hadn't invited the entire team.
[6:27]And that was stupid because I invite the team all the time to everything.
[6:30]Why this important event because of space, we're not going to bring them.
[6:33]So I emailed everybody and I was like, you know what, forget space.
[6:36]We'll smush. This is our company and we're in it together.
[6:39]So anyway, that was directly because of you. So thank you.
[6:41]Well, I love it. And it's an example of living the of living the values.
[6:46]You know, I talk about the litmus test is you're at a fork in the road and you want to bring
[6:50]your values to life, whether it's the company, the department, you're or even just
[6:54]if you're listening to this and you have a team of people and you're trying to decide to invite
[6:59]my whole team to this event. Do I hire this person? Do I hire this person? Do I have this
[7:03]person on my podcast? You know, whatever it is, your company values, your personal value should
[7:08]help drive you. And if they don't, you either have maybe too many values and you can't figure
[7:14]out which end is up or they're the wrong one. So I love that example because it's practical
[7:20]and you're like, this is who we are. And if we need to smush, we'll smush, but that's more important
[7:25]than saying, okay, we're going to make the decision based on the space. Now we're making the
[7:29]decision based on our culture and who we are and who we want to be. Yes. Well, the framework that
[7:35]you set out made making that decision seem very obvious and intentional. So that's the other
[7:40]thing that I feel like you put in the book so much is like thinking through. It's everything you do,
[7:45]not only contributes to the culture, but really communicate so much more than you even think to
[7:49]the employees and what it means to be a part of the business or the company or the team or whatever
[7:54]it is and how little things become huge things. And that's the difference between like making
[8:01]robotic worker bees versus bringing your whole self to work and connecting on a deeper level,
[8:06]which of course then actually ends up improving productivity, right? And retention. I mean, you have
[8:12]people at all different levels who got to go, I don't know what this event is, but this great event
[8:18]and they feel connected and part of the whole, you know, the next week when they're at some cocktail
[8:24]party or exercise class and someone's like, Hey, you know, I know about this job and some other
[8:29]company, that person is less likely to say, you know what, like I wasn't invited to this event,
[8:35]like I'm really happy where I am. And that's exactly why, and you're right, you did start in
[8:41]the right order, but why bringing your human to our creating a human workplace, living the values
[8:46]is not only good for people, but also good for business. And those two things are not mutually
[8:51]exclusive. Interesting. Another thing not to say like, Oh, I did all of your things because there
[8:56]are many that I would like to implement like leading by example, dealing with it, tracking it,
[9:01]I'm not going to tracking anything. Oh, I love your idea of that. I mean, we read books all the time
[9:04]at work. So I feel like it's just getting a book club at our company. People would be like,
[9:08]are you getting reread all day every day? But all these are great ideas. And when I started this
[9:12]company, I was like, I don't actually want to work in a company. Like I want to have it just be fun.
[9:17]So we all have lunch like in my house every day. We leave our office and we come to my house and
[9:21]we sit around like a big table and have lunch and we don't talk about work. Sometimes it comes up,
[9:25]but mostly that you were like, what did you this weekend? What's going on? Tell us about your wedding?
[9:30]And I was like, why do I do this? Should I stop doing this? I was like, but I really like this.
[9:33]Anyway, your book was like, Oh, this is why you should keep doing this. And this is how it's
[9:38]helping. And so anyway, that was also really great. Well, that, and I'm sure you saw it's a
[9:42]theme in a bunch of the books. But I mean, that that's the gold standard, I will say. So
[9:48]congratulations to that. And you were doing that anyway. But a lot of my work is inspired by a study
[9:53]at Cornell that was done by a guy named Kevin Niffin. And he was taking those organizational
[9:58]behavior classes, getting
[10:00]his PhD, which I did not.
[10:01]And he was looking at what makes one team
[10:03]hire performing that another team.
[10:05]And he decided to study the firefighters
[10:08]because his dad was a firefighter and he grew up
[10:11]in the firehouse.
[10:13]And so long story short,
[10:14]what he found was that the firefighters
[10:16]who were the most dedicated to the ritual
[10:18]of the firehouse meal, of sitting around the table
[10:22]and building trust and shooting the breeze as humans,
[10:26]they saved more lives, literally.
[10:29]And so, okay, we all are not firefighters
[10:32]and we all are not saving lives,
[10:33]but we all are doing important things.
[10:35]And to me, this was a goose bump moment.
[10:38]I knew this intuitively that there is a correlation
[10:41]between connection and performance
[10:44]and then this study really changed my life.
[10:47]And so what I've been thinking about a lot recently
[10:50]is it's sort of the, this is like the business case
[10:53]for community that we could all take a break and sit and eat.
[10:57]But the case for community is might take a little longer.
[11:01]We're gonna leave our offices.
[11:02]We're gonna sit around the table.
[11:04]We're gonna hear about the wedding, hear about this.
[11:06]And even a senior leader in a law firm the other day
[11:09]said to me, you know, doing this,
[11:11]working on this mentorship program for them.
[11:14]And she said, you know, it's just human nature.
[11:16]Like if I have an associate who's messing some things up
[11:19]and maybe things aren't going well,
[11:21]but I know this person and I care about this person
[11:23]and I know who they are,
[11:25]I'm gonna take more time to teach them.
[11:27]I'm gonna cut them a little bit more slack.
[11:29]Like it's, it is just human nature, you know,
[11:32]excusing the pond.
[11:34]No, you're absolutely right.
[11:35]Well, this is so important.
[11:37]And I don't know.
[11:38]I feel like I need to talk to you more with this.
[11:39]Like everything we're doing that I want to do
[11:41]is like creating community and community around books
[11:43]and community around, like to me,
[11:45]that's like the heart of why we like live and breathe
[11:48]and love and this sounds so hokey, but like that's it.
[11:51]Like could the connections we make to other people?
[11:53]Well, I mean, yes, we should talk about it more
[11:55]because what you do, I mean,
[11:57]so you have your community inside your company
[11:59]but then you are creating, right?
[12:01]That's, we got connected with this,
[12:03]but I have a friend who was at one of your events
[12:05]and I think in Miami and you're creating
[12:07]this broader community, which again is good
[12:10]for people individually.
[12:11]I mean, I think a lot about, again,
[12:13]the impact of this technology,
[12:15]the good, the bad and the ugly of loneliness
[12:17]and isolation on the bad part,
[12:19]but obviously we know there's a lot of positives.
[12:21]And so yeah, I think that the stuff
[12:23]that you were doing around your broader community
[12:26]is making people feel more connected
[12:29]and is saving lives in a different way.
[12:31]Well, I don't mean to turn this on to what I'm doing,
[12:33]but I just feel like using the tools in your toolkit
[12:36]and like almost giving myself a quiz,
[12:39]these three books were like,
[12:41]okay, how did I do with this?
[12:42]And how did I do with that?
[12:43]I feel like it's a really good limit test
[12:45]for anyone leading anything, honestly.
[12:48]I mean, you can apply it to a family,
[12:49]you can apply it to anything,
[12:50]like rituals of the family, like what do we do?
[12:52]Do we do Friday night dinner?
[12:54]Do we do, you know, like what are the things?
[12:56]We do every year, every week, like it's important.
[12:58]And then you're bonded.
[13:00]So you can apply it to the right.
[13:02]I mean, that's the science of rituals.
[13:03]Give us a sense of psychological safety,
[13:05]a sense of belonging, a connection to purpose.
[13:08]And yeah, we had cut my kids in our college
[13:11]and I also had, I didn't cook when they were home,
[13:13]but you know, Taco Tuesday was our family ritual.
[13:16]And you know, you'd smell this,
[13:18]have the smell on Tuesday and it's a longer story
[13:21]for another day, but I did have, on March 14th,
[13:24]when we started quarantining that next Tuesday,
[13:27]which was the Thursday, that next Tuesday,
[13:29]we had left New York City and it was Tuesday.
[13:31]So we made tacos and like my mom had been really sick
[13:35]and she passed away in April of 2020.
[13:36]Like things were crazy, but I remember we had tacos that night
[13:40]and I could see my kids were younger teenagers,
[13:43]but they walked in the kitchen with their shoulders like this
[13:46]and I could see just this, you know,
[13:49]rituals are very connected with your senses.
[13:51]You know, smell and taste and all of those things.
[13:54]And so it's these little things matter.
[13:56]And I bet walking into your house for lunch.
[13:58]I mean, there's just this feeling of coming together.
[14:01]I love that.
[14:02]Oh my gosh.
[14:03]Okay, wait.
[14:04]So that's the ritual's roadmap.
[14:05]We also have the retention revolution,
[14:07]which of course it all ties into everything,
[14:09]the importance of keeping people
[14:12]and making them feel special
[14:14]and reducing the cost from a business perspective
[14:17]of having to replace people all the time.
[14:19]And you know, all of that,
[14:20]basically what you're doing in all of your books
[14:22]is how to treat people with and make them feel really valued.
[14:26]That's really what your whole thing is about, right?
[14:28]Yeah.
[14:29]You know, it's funny, I was on a podcast and someone said,
[14:30]well, you had to boil it all down.
[14:32]Like what does it come down to?
[14:33]When I just sort of stopped in my tracks and I said,
[14:36]and I get curious what your reaction to this,
[14:39]having read the books is, but I said,
[14:41]just you need to care about them.
[14:43]Like show them that you care about them.
[14:46]Like let's not overthink this.
[14:48]Whether it's inviting them to that meeting,
[14:50]whether it's taking a minute,
[14:51]if you know someone's having a bad day,
[14:53]it's showing them that you care about them.
[14:55]And last thing I want to say about the retention book,
[14:58]that book is, it's interesting because in this new generation,
[15:02]if we hear a lot about it so hard,
[15:04]Gen Z and managing people in this new generation,
[15:07]which my kids are in this new generation,
[15:10]they do think about life and work differently.
[15:12]And so one of the takeaways in this book is that
[15:15]you wanna onboard people in a certain way
[15:18]make them feel connected to your organization early and often.
[15:22]And you could do everything right as a leader
[15:25]and there are still gonna be people that leave.
[15:27]And so the retention revolution is shifting
[15:30]from this idea of golden handcuffs
[15:32]and chaining people to their desk
[15:34]and maybe just paying them
[15:36]so they really feel like they're stuck and can't leave
[15:39]to, you know what, I am gonna get them on board
[15:42]and give them these great experiences
[15:44]while they're there, help them to develop,
[15:46]up down in sideways,
[15:48]because often, especially, you know, I'm sure,
[15:50]you don't have a huge company, right?
[15:51]There's not as many rugs in the ladder
[15:53]so we need to get creative about how we help people grow.
[15:57]And then the day that they come and they say,
[15:59]you know, what's it gonna be, I am moving on,
[16:01]we all need to take a deep breath
[16:03]and refrain from the, you're dead to me,
[16:05]don't let the door hit you in the behind.
[16:07]And think about ways to keep people connected
[16:11]because when you stay connected,
[16:13]when you keep people in your ecosystem,
[16:16]you might get somebody to come back as a boomerang.
[16:18]You might get somebody to refer their friend.
[16:21]You're gonna get somebody to buy your book.
[16:23]I mean, they become a brand ambassador.
[16:26]So, I mean, I could imagine, you know,
[16:28]what about if down the road as your company grows
[16:31]that maybe there's a monthly or maybe a quarterly book club
[16:35]for current employees and maybe people
[16:37]that used to work for you to keep your own,
[16:40]you know, Zibio and ecosystem connected.
[16:42]So I just wanted to throw that in there
[16:43]because it's retention with a little bit
[16:46]of a different spin or a different lens
[16:49]because we are not in the days of IBM and General Motors
[16:52]where people stayed 50 years
[16:53]and then graduated with a plaque and a pension.
[16:55]True, I like that I can't, that's interesting.
[16:57]I'm not sure anyone will go for it,
[16:59]but I like it in theory.
[17:00]I like it in theory and I told it when I want to make sure
[17:03]that people leave gracefully.
[17:04]I mean, that's a whole, you know, separate thing,
[17:06]depending on if someone, you know, cheats or steels
[17:10]or is, you know, really not a good person that's different,
[17:13]but so many times, like people will say, you know,
[17:15]it's not you, it's me and they've moved on
[17:17]for whatever reason and it's keeping them connected
[17:21]to the culture.
[17:22]I mean, I don't want anybody to leave.
[17:24]Nobody is allowed to leave.
[17:25]No one's allowed to leave if you're listening to this.
[17:28]I feel like I could actually have a better book club
[17:30]of past babysitters because with four kids who are now,
[17:34]you know, my older kids are 16 and a half,
[17:37]sometimes they're like, let's talk about all the babysitters
[17:40]that we've had over the years.
[17:41]Remember that person who just knew her
[17:43]like five days, what was her name at the end?
[17:45]We at my girls bought Mitzvah.
[17:47]We had probably six babysitters that flew in
[17:51]and all over, like, they're never leaving.
[17:54]We are in touch with them all the time.
[17:56]And they now have kids.
[17:57]I mean, it's awesome.
[17:58]Yes, we have that too.
[18:00]I actually just got an email yesterday
[18:01]from a babysitter who only worked for us
[18:03]for this one summer for probably two months,
[18:05]but we kind of stayed in touch with her
[18:07]and it was nine years ago, she just reminded me.
[18:09]And she's like, I have this friend who's an executive assistant.
[18:12]I have no idea why I'm even sending this to you,
[18:14]but she's in New York if you know anybody.
[18:15]And I was like, well, maybe I can use an executive assistant.
[18:18]So do you right now, I'm going to interview her.
[18:20]I was like, this is gonna be a great idea for a book.
[18:22]Can you imagine having either a book club
[18:24]or a get together with all the past babysitters?
[18:28]It's like a reboot of the babysitters club.
[18:31]Back down, yeah, there you go.
[18:33]No, but yes, I mean, I don't know.
[18:35]Do I want them all together talking badly about me?
[18:37]I don't know.
[18:38]That's the risky run.
[18:40]So Erica, what are you working on more?
[18:43]How many colors are we putting in this little series here?
[18:45]This is the human workplace trilogy.
[18:47]So trilogy is three.
[18:49]I mean, who knows about a future book,
[18:52]but what I'm doing now is really trying to help organizations
[18:56]bring these ideas to life and make it real,
[19:00]which is really exciting.
[19:01]I have a project in New York City
[19:03]where companies literally redoing their entire office
[19:07]from having 250 different offices to 50,
[19:11]and they want people to use the space differently.
[19:13]So I'm working with them to create rituals.
[19:15]How do you get people to move around the space?
[19:17]How do you think about new and exciting ways
[19:20]to come together, especially when you're not
[19:22]in the office every day?
[19:23]Well, you mentioned the word intentionality.
[19:25]I'm kind of obsessed with thinking about intentionality
[19:27]right now, and I have in one of my slides,
[19:31]I feel, and maybe I wrote about it
[19:32]in my newsletter this week.
[19:33]It was the absence of intentionality is a recipe for resentment.
[19:38]And that really is something that I'm focused on,
[19:42]that if you have a company and people are coming in
[19:45]all over the tri-state area from Montclair, New Jersey
[19:47]to Connecticut to Westchester and coming into New York City,
[19:50]and everybody's coming in, you know,
[19:53]and sitting in their own offices and not talking
[19:55]to each other all day, that lack of intentionality
[19:58]is a recipe for us.
[20:00]I mean, why did I commute?
[20:01]Like that, what am I doing?
[20:03]So doing things like breaking and having lunch
[20:06]or doing an all hands meeting or doing a strategy session,
[20:09]these are the things you need to do,
[20:11]especially when you're not coming in every day.
[20:13]So true, yeah, we come in three days a week.
[20:16]And actually the workspace is another thing
[20:18]that I had to change because we moved into this office,
[20:21]but there were like kind of two areas you could sit in
[20:23]and we used to all be in one area.
[20:25]And after a couple months, I was like so irritated
[20:28]like everything was just off.
[20:31]And I was like, I think it's because all these people
[20:32]who I used to see all the time, they're like sitting,
[20:34]it's not that far, but they're like,
[20:35]we're not, I'm not interacting with them.
[20:37]Yes, different.
[20:38]We changed it all and put way more desks in one room
[20:41]and now we're all in the same room again
[20:42]and I feel much better.
[20:44]Space matters.
[20:45]And as you know, that's a chapter of the book too.
[20:48]And that that's intentionality.
[20:49]I mean, right there.
[20:50]So you're doing it.
[20:52]Do you think people do care?
[20:54]I mean, do you think that the clients you're working with,
[20:57]not anyone specifically,
[20:58]but are they doing it because,
[21:01]oh, okay, fine.
[21:02]This will increase my productivity
[21:03]or do they actually care?
[21:05]Because I feel like people can tell if it's authentic
[21:08]or not.
[21:09]Like I actually care, but I really do.
[21:11]Like I really, really care about my team.
[21:13]But if I were just doing some of the things in your book
[21:17]to increase performance,
[21:18]I feel like people would know that.
[21:20]They do know it.
[21:21]It feels like a box check
[21:22]or you can get away with it for a little bit of time
[21:24]and we're all busy.
[21:26]And this stuff is not rocket science,
[21:28]but it's also not easy and it does take time to do well.
[21:31]And so you can fake it for a little bit,
[21:34]but eventually if you really don't care,
[21:37]it's pretty obvious.
[21:38]Yeah, going back to your point.
[21:39]You have to care.
[21:40]You have to care.
[21:41]Amazing.
[21:42]Awesome.
[21:43]Well, Erica, thank you so much.
[21:44]So much great advice here for any type of person
[21:47]who is trying to organize any type of group,
[21:50]a teacher, a mom, a CEO.
[21:54]I mean, these tactics are about how to make the people
[21:57]in your life feel valued and that is so, so important.
[22:00]So I think the books are fabulous
[22:02]and I'm going to keep particularly the first one
[22:05]where I have so many things highlighted
[22:07]for what I could do better.
[22:08]I'm going to keep that close to the vest.
[22:10]So thank you.
[22:11]Thank you.
[22:12]Thank you for having me.
[22:13]My pleasure.
[22:15]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[22:18]to Read Books.
[22:19]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at ZB Owens
[22:22]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:24]Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com
[22:27]and sign up for my virtual book club
[22:28]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:31]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[22:32]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[22:35]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:36]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.