Carrie Sun, PRIVATE EQUITY: A Memoir
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[0:33]Carrie Sun is the author of Private Equity, a memoir.
[0:36]Carrie was born in China and raised in Michigan.
[0:39]She holds an MFA in creative writing from the new school.
[0:42]She lives in Brooklyn with her husband, Private Equity, is her first book.
[0:46]Welcome, Carrie.
[0:47]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss
[0:50]Private Equity, a memoir.
[0:52]Thank you so much, Zippy, for inviting me on to your podcast.
[0:55]Oh, you're so welcome.
[0:57]I found your story to be so interesting.
[1:00]You do a real deep dive into what this particular job and culture was like,
[1:05]but you wove in so much with your own family and your own sort of vices that get in your way
[1:11]and health.
[1:12]Well, maybe you should summarize the book for everybody else.
[1:15]I was getting ahead of myself here.
[1:17]Go ahead, Carrie.
[1:18]What is your book about?
[1:20]Yeah, it has all those various different threads that I hopefully have woven together
[1:25]into one complete book.
[1:26]I see my book as fundamentally a story about self-discovery and about the detours that we might
[1:35]take in our lives along the way to finally be where we want to be.
[1:40]And for me, in particular, I wrote about my long kind of career detour to rediscover,
[1:48]I think this isn't giving anything away because at the end of the book,
[1:51]I'm rediscovering my love of writing, which is what I've always wanted to be,
[1:55]since I was a very little girl.
[1:57]And in that sense, which is, it's especially meaningful and special to me that I'm speaking to you
[2:03]about this journey, because as I've read from your background, you also went to business school,
[2:07]you know, I was at Wharton, I ended up dropping out.
[2:10]But it was all in service of trying to discover who I wanted to be.
[2:14]And it took me decades, actually, to rediscover my love of writing.
[2:18]And so, but before I get there, the book is primarily about my journey on this detour,
[2:23]which I was living in Michigan at the time.
[2:27]And I was in a relationship that I wasn't sure that I wanted to be in.
[2:31]And I was looking for, I was feeling very adrift and lost.
[2:37]And I was just looking for a way out of that.
[2:41]I was in college, I had majored in math and finance.
[2:46]And I never really had a time to take classes and for the example writing, literature,
[2:52]that I really wanted to take, I just didn't have room in my schedule to take it.
[2:56]So after I dropped out of business school, I ended up taking classes in my humanities,
[2:59]that I loved, like philosophy, English literature, writing, creative writing.
[3:04]And I just, I fell in love with it.
[3:06]It was a way for me to find myself.
[3:09]I just, I wanted the time and space to discover myself,
[3:13]because I had been on this path of like, go, go, go, because of my childhood,
[3:18]my immigrant parental background, as well as, you know, my college years.
[3:22]And so, but I don't come from money or means.
[3:25]So I really needed time and space and a way to afford my life to be able to discover myself.
[3:33]And so, financial independence and stability has always been really important to me.
[3:38]And so I needed, I needed a day job and a recruiter on LinkedIn reached out to me with this
[3:44]opportunity.
[3:45]He described it as a once in a lifetime opportunity to work as a sole assistant to this major person
[3:51]in finance.
[3:52]And I jumped at that opportunity.
[3:55]I thought this was going to be a perfect path for me because it allowed me to kind of separate
[4:02]compartmentalize my day job and then hopefully my, what I would do in my free time.
[4:06]It also gave me a way to kind of escape a relationship that I felt was really controlling.
[4:11]And so I was able to leave that relationship behind in Michigan, move to a new city, New York,
[4:17]where dreams are made of and where, you know, like so many, as I like look out the window
[4:22]at like garbage trucks and, you know, sirens and, you know, I'm like dreams are made up.
[4:29]It's like a disaster outside.
[4:30]But anyway, let's go with it.
[4:32]Let's go with it anyway.
[4:33]And you know, part of my story is having that a hope and perfect illusion of what this like
[4:42]life in New York would be like.
[4:44]And I felt so free.
[4:46]And I, you know, it could be this young person.
[4:48]I thought I was living a like just, I felt so free to be able to take advantage of this opportunity.
[4:54]But even like you say, the garbage trucks and this, you know, the spelling trash,
[4:59]you know, in New York during the summer, like on the sidewalks, there's kind of a gritty
[5:02]side to all of this glamour.
[5:05]And the gritty side that I explore in my book is the hustle and grind and the culture of
[5:12]work and overwork.
[5:13]That's what I see my story as really being about.
[5:15]It just happens to be set in the world of high finance and Manhattan hedge funds.
[5:20]But really, it's kind of how do we discover ourselves through work and, and how do we ask
[5:28]ourselves?
[5:29]So my book is called Private Equity.
[5:31]And I mean in a sense of private like the self and equity in the sense of like just
[5:38]fairness and investment.
[5:40]So it's kind of like what is our investment in ourselves?
[5:43]What is our private equity in the life that we want to build for our own future and destiny?
[5:50]Love it.
[5:51]Was this always the title?
[5:52]By the way, you know, I didn't have a title for a very long time.
[5:55]Precisely, exactly as you notice, my book has so many different strands and I just wasn't sure
[6:01]exactly how to sum up entirely.
[6:04]But then, you know, my publishing team and I, you know, threw around so many titles.
[6:08]And when we thought of this, it was just like so perfect because it kind of, it captured
[6:13]that world, but also it means so much more, you know, yeah.
[6:17]No, it's great.
[6:18]It's a great title.
[6:20]It's a great cover.
[6:21]I mean, the whole thing.
[6:22]Well, so I think, well, if you'd like my opinion on what you're about, the thing that I think
[6:29]it's like a coming of age through work and I think it's a, um, I think it's one of those
[6:35]cautionary tales where we see you physically bearing the brunt of the emotional effects of
[6:43]the lack of balance in your life.
[6:45]So your ankle and how is your ankle, by the way, that sounded horrific when you finally
[6:50]got that diagnosis.
[6:51]I was like, oh my gosh, like I knew she heard her ankle, but geez, it's like ligaments
[6:56]and this and that.
[6:57]And I was like, they're like five different things going on with your ankle.
[6:59]Are you okay?
[7:00]Can you walk?
[7:01]I can walk.
[7:03]I am able to, you know, after that, I kind of just stop running for various reasons.
[7:08]I love to go on walks.
[7:09]So that's okay.
[7:11]I still have the skin scars from that first treadmill, they are very deep.
[7:17]And yes, my body is actually physically bearing the brunt of my inability to balance these
[7:24]extremes.
[7:25]Right.
[7:26]So I think what I'm seeing among my friends and I think most America, like it's not
[7:31]that we don't want to work hard.
[7:32]I know everyone I know really wants to work hard and they just want their work to both
[7:38]mean something and to be able to integrate fully into this life that they want to build,
[7:43]you know?
[7:44]And I think many of us struggle with how easy it is for work to end up just taking over
[7:51]our lives and consuming everything and I don't struggle with that at all.
[7:55]I have such a good balance.
[7:59]Actually, what I was thinking is you were just talking.
[8:02]Not only was your life not in balance, you literally, like you fell twice essentially,
[8:08]you slipped and then you fell, it literally was off balance.
[8:12]Like it is, it was like you were off the access of the world.
[8:16]And by the way, that happened to me and I fell off.
[8:18]I fell off a step mill when my life was out of control also.
[8:22]And I have a scar that's like, you know, two inches long on my right.
[8:26]I feel like I shouldn't say this like, no, someone can impersonate me or say, do you know
[8:29]if that's if he's secret scar on her friend, friend, right?
[8:33]You know, I can't remember the name of my leg, the bottom part of the leg.
[8:37]Anyway, whatever.
[8:38]Shit, there it is.
[8:39]Shit.
[8:40]Anyway.
[8:41]Yeah.
[8:42]Yeah.
[8:43]It's a perfect metaphor actually.
[8:44]And I just like, I couldn't even believe it.
[8:46]As you say, you're so, of course, you are such an astute reader to notice that is, you
[8:50]know, I initially, I didn't put this line in the book, but like when I fell off the
[8:53]treadmill, you know, because the treadmill has been such a, you know, a symbol of kind of
[8:58]that just clushing the pounding that like effort for for many things work, capitalism,
[9:05]like everything, like, like, you know, chasing validation from your parents, just all
[9:09]these things.
[9:10]And so I, when I fell off the treadmill, I certainly was so hurt and, you know, even though
[9:15]I told everyone at the office, I'm fine.
[9:18]But I actually had the thought that God pushed me off the treadmill, like this, like, I'm
[9:24]not religious.
[9:25]So there's just like, no, I get it.
[9:26]I get this universe.
[9:27]I was like, this is a universe giving me a sign to get off the treadmill.
[9:31]Yep.
[9:32]And what do I do?
[9:33]I get right back on.
[9:34]You know?
[9:35]And so I don't learn that lesson.
[9:37]You do though.
[9:38]It just takes it.
[9:39]It took long time.
[9:40]You know, you don't always act on the lessons you learn.
[9:43]They like sink in and sometimes it takes a little bit to actually inspire action.
[9:48]Yes.
[9:49]Because I think you're totally right.
[9:50]Some of those pivotal moments, both in my life that I show in the book, it, it takes
[9:55]me a while to actually absorb and kind of make into action.
[10:00]what I want to do. For example, I knew that the relationship I had in the book was fairly toxic
[10:06]and I wanted to leave, but it was still a back and forth for a very long time for me to come to
[10:12]terms with a final decision. And it's the same thing about the burnout I had in this job as the
[10:19]assistant because there were so many parts of the job that I did enjoy. And it was beyond the
[10:26]you know, the glamor, the perks, the pay, the raises. It was just I was surrounded by people who
[10:32]worked really hard who wanted to be the best and I, that is such, I think that's such a real thing
[10:41]that I think many people still want to be a part of, you know, and I was inspired by that world. And
[10:47]actually it's because I was inspired by so many people who were pushing themselves to be the best
[10:52]version of what they wanted to be in their career, which, which was more on the financial investment
[10:56]side. I realized, you know, I want to do that, but I actually want to do my own thing in a different
[11:02]field, you know? So this is like when I went to business school and I realized there were people who
[11:06]were like legitimately obsessed with marketing. And I'm like, no, I like marketing and I'm happy to
[11:13]keep working in marketing and marketing is part of everything. But like, I'm not obsessed with marketing
[11:19]like, I'm obsessed with writing. Like, I love the literary, everything about the literary world.
[11:23]Like, wait, wait, am I supposed to be obsessed with marketing?
[11:28]Yeah, exactly. So, you know, when, you know, I had my degrees in math and finance, I was also
[11:34]a warrant. Like, I am still interested in all those things. Like in publishing, I'm interested in
[11:39]business side of writing and career and all the same questions. But, you know, I had a line
[11:45]in my book like what you do in your free time, such that your spare times to me seems mistaken.
[11:50]Like, I read and I write and I also plan, I love planning, I'm a planner, I'm on schedule
[11:56]or and so, you know, it's like, how can I make those things that I do in my free time work for me?
[12:01]And it just, it just took a while and I needed a day job to be able to get there where
[12:07]now I can be full time. But it's because I put it put in those years where I was able to
[12:12]really question myself. And, you know, yes, there are people who are totally obsessed with things
[12:17]like marketing. And I really know having worked out like literally obsessed with, you know,
[12:22]financial documents. And that's great. That's great for them. And I could see their love
[12:26]of that. And I'm like, but I love stories. I love stories. I love characters. I love people. And
[12:33]it's okay. I don't love numbers as much. I didn't know that. It's just hard when we're
[12:38]so smart. I can do everything well. It's just really tough.
[12:45]I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can have lots of interests. And it's okay.
[12:51]Exactly. Exactly. And in my book, I really want to raise the question of just this idea that,
[12:59]you know, initially, it can sometimes sound like a cliche of just like finding out your own path
[13:04]and doing things your own way. But I think that sometimes what I want to focus on is how sometimes
[13:11]what to other people might look like going backwards is actually you just doing it your own
[13:18]way. So, you know, I was actually on the investments I've read after college. And then for
[13:23]actually about a year, I was a portfolio manager. I got into business school. I was on this like
[13:27]financial track. And then I quit. And then when I quit, I was kind of, I mean, I was technically
[13:32]unemployed, you know, but I was taking classes. I was, you know, doing all these things. And so,
[13:36]I got a lot of questioning like, you're really going to give up your career to kind of go backwards.
[13:41]And then when I was taking those classes in the humanities, I was like, when he dropped out of
[13:46]business school at 26. So I was 26, 27, 28, when my classmates work in their like 20. So I was kind
[13:54]of going backwards. You know, I was 28. My classmates were 20 when I was taking these classes.
[13:59]I was also, I went from making, you know, paycheck that months away with being in finance to
[14:05]no paycheck. And living off my savings. So in some sense, as I, I was going backward to that
[14:12]overall before me, I was moving closer to the thing I wanted to do. It just kind of looked like
[14:19]not, you know, and so I feel like, and tell me how you feel about this, but I feel like there's a
[14:24]piece of you that feels some sort of shame that like, you couldn't hack it in that culture, or like
[14:31]that you feel a little guilty leaving them when you told them you would be there forever. Like,
[14:37]I feel like you haven't quite 100% come to terms with your decision, even though you know
[14:43]it's the right one. I feel like you still have some lingering feelings about it. Am I wrong?
[14:50]My lingering feelings are that this is, I think my just talking about me in particular because
[14:57]you brought it like, I think I will always love work. And there's always a little part of me
[15:03]that still wants to do it all. And I know that's sort of a kind of myth that certain,
[15:11]especially women of a certain generation. I feel like mine millennial, but also one generation
[15:17]above me and below. Like, we kind of want to have it all, you know, and it's very difficult to
[15:24]for someone who wants to work really hard to be able to give that up that dream fully. And I
[15:32]I probably work more being a freelance writer now than I actually did at my former job. But the
[15:38]difference is, I think the main difference is that I get to have time control over my day. And so
[15:46]that gives me a feeling of agency that I was never able to cultivate in the role that I was in
[15:54]previously. Well, and I'm curious why you saved this piece of your story for the very, very end. But
[16:02]you do have a situation, and I don't know if you I should not say it because it comes to late, but
[16:08]in college where there was a moment where you were not in control and then you were not believed
[16:15]and the impact of that. And sort of, what is that signal to you when like, I don't know,
[16:23]like where does that take your path forward when you've gone through something like that?
[16:27]That's a great question. And I think yes, it comes late in the book, but I'll just mention,
[16:33]because I think it will just be out there is that I was sexually assaulted my first semester
[16:39]in college. And just I really believe in such a traumatic moment, there is not one
[16:46]right way to respond or interpret it. And for me, while the assault was extremely bad and
[16:54]the institutional response for me was much, much, much worse. And ultimately I decided, you know,
[17:00]this is in 2003, I decided to, which is I just mentioned that because it was well before me too,
[17:07]I, you know, really felt solo and that yeah, this is my first semester of college, I'm 18. And
[17:12]I decided to go forward with filing a Title IX report because I really felt it was the right thing
[17:18]to do. I knew I was up against a lot just like me versus the institution, but nevertheless,
[17:26]I want to try to be heard even though ultimately I was not heard. And I that experience was so
[17:35]traumatizing that I didn't realize the trauma at the time. I just told myself I would never
[17:41]ever spent one additional second thing came out because because of that experience, I received
[17:47]incomplete. I really felt like it really just ruined my college experience that I would,
[17:52]I worked so hard to get into. My parents like really sacrificed so much to pay for. And it just
[17:59]was really kind of ruined in the first couple of months at college. And so I was determined to
[18:05]not let that experience both define who I am and also influence the rest of my career. And so I
[18:13]was, I considered dropping out of college or certainly MIT, but I was like why should I have to be
[18:20]the person to drop out and change my life when someone else committed this, what I believe is a crime.
[18:28]And so I was determined to finish my degree and not let that just kind of ruin my career. And so
[18:34]instead of having that experience slow me down, I really tried to speed up. And I graduated MIT
[18:42]in three years. And you know, everyone used to say, you know, like, oh, you must be so smart,
[18:46]you must be so ambitious. And it's like, well, no, I was just trying to get out of hell. I was
[18:52]trying to escape this hell situation as school in which, you know, socially it was very difficult
[18:57]because both men and women judged me a lot for reporting what I did. But I had friends come up to
[19:04]me both explicitly actually. And also, you know, friends of friends who would whisper to me
[19:10]that the same thing happened to them. And they did not report it because they saw what happened to
[19:16]me. So once again, I'm a cautionary tale. As you said, so my book is a cautionary tale about
[19:21]how easy it is to have our work life be out of balance. And that sexual assault story unfortunately
[19:29]is also a cautionary tale about what can happen in an institute when you try to speak up in an
[19:34]institution. And the reason why I included it at the very end is it is just simply true that
[19:41]that experience is so not run of mine for me partly because for me to recover from that trauma,
[19:48]I had to completely block it out of my mind. Such that like I went the first time I thought about
[19:53]it again in decades. I actually couldn't remember the person's name at all. And so it just wasn't
[20:00]in front of mine, but then, you know, part of my book,
[20:03]there's this whole question of speaking up.
[20:05]When do you speak up for yourself?
[20:07]And it just made me think of the moments
[20:10]where I tried to speak up for myself
[20:13]when I was in pain, hurt, trying to do the right thing.
[20:16]When I was just so overwhelmed that I had no other avenue
[20:21]except to speak up to who I thought was in power.
[20:25]And so in my sexual assault case,
[20:27]it was MIT, the institution that I would report it to.
[20:30]And in the job I write about in the book
[20:32]is my boss who is the owner of that hedge fund.
[20:35]And you know, I would say that the institutional response
[20:39]in both cases was in some ways flying to do the right thing.
[20:43]So I won't say it's like all good or bad.
[20:45]I don't believe in these like just so clearly
[20:48]delineated markers, but nevertheless,
[20:52]I felt eaten up and used by the institution
[20:55]and ultimately not heard, disregarded.
[20:58]And it was painful.
[21:01]And so yeah.
[21:03]I'm so sorry.
[21:05]Because you keep trying to speak up,
[21:09]which is what we're all told to do.
[21:10]Like you just keep doing it.
[21:12]And then even Boone was like, why did you say something?
[21:15]And you show us the many times that you say something.
[21:18]And we're like, well, what on earth?
[21:20]What is he talking about?
[21:22]Why is nobody hearing you?
[21:23]It's like, it must make you feel like you're going crazy.
[21:28]Like honestly, I actually felt I had so much another
[21:33]cautionary tell moment.
[21:34]And I hope, you know, other readers, my sense
[21:38]is just the cycle of self blame.
[21:41]I blame myself so much for not being
[21:43]able to cut it for like maybe I should have spoken of more.
[21:47]And it's like, no, Ashley, I spoke up in many different
[21:51]instances, both in terms of small situations and large.
[21:55]Like the example we were talking about at MIT,
[21:58]I reported that to my superiors,
[22:00]which are my resident advisors within the hour,
[22:03]within the hour.
[22:04]And that was not enough speaking up as it were.
[22:07]And at first she was like, are you sure?
[22:11]Didn't she say, are you sure that happened?
[22:13]Are you sure that happened to you?
[22:14]And like what on earth, what kind of question is that?
[22:17]Yeah, it's like it just happened minutes ago.
[22:19]So yes, it just happened.
[22:21]And so it reminded me of when I was speaking up
[22:24]to my boss in the book, Boone.
[22:26]And I told him I was burnt out.
[22:28]And he told me I was overwhelmed, burnt out emotionally,
[22:33]just totally exhausted as well.
[22:36]I was having major physical issues.
[22:39]And he tells me, but you look great to me.
[22:42]And it's like, OK, I just need to, I feel like he's
[22:47]trying to tell me my reality that is not my truth.
[22:51]And so he also told you you should just
[22:53]take a break for 15 minutes and you'd be fine.
[22:56]I'm like, OK, thanks, dude.
[22:59]Yeah, exactly.
[23:01]Taking breaks, I think.
[23:02]I feel like in another 10 years or 20 years,
[23:06]you're going to have a new interpretation of all of this.
[23:11]I think you're still really in it.
[23:13]And I think I'm hoping for you that writing this book
[23:18]and people reading it and the responses
[23:21]and the ability to examine it all is,
[23:24]it will hopefully make you feel more at peace
[23:26]because you've really had a lot of stuff happen to you.
[23:30]And I don't know.
[23:31]Maybe you've got to get a great therapist or something
[23:34]that's not just that.
[23:35]I still see the same therapist I had in the book.
[23:37]I see it for every week.
[23:41]There's anything wrong.
[23:43]You've had stuff happen to you that you have to reconcile.
[23:48]Not to mention the very strong opinions of your parents
[23:50]who obviously love you very much,
[23:52]but have their own set of stuff.
[23:54]I just feel like I hope you have.
[23:58]And I know you have a good friend who you read
[23:59]and read in the book a lot.
[24:00]I just like left the book feeling like, gosh, I hope
[24:03]that she has somebody who, and I guess you're married now,
[24:06]is that right?
[24:07]You're married.
[24:08]So I'm hoping that that's all great.
[24:10]And you have somebody you feel like you
[24:11]could not do it.
[24:14]Because not that there's anything wrong.
[24:15]You didn't do anything wrong.
[24:16]It's just like, that was a lot.
[24:18]It was just a lot.
[24:19]That's a lot.
[24:19]Thank you so much for saying that.
[24:21]Zibi, because it is and was a lot.
[24:24]Like both my therapist and friends tell me
[24:26]it's like 10 years of things happening in two years
[24:29]that I wrote about in the book.
[24:30]And so it does take a while to unpack the meaning of all that
[24:35]and really come to terms.
[24:37]And also, when I was researching the book,
[24:39]just it's severe burnout, which is how I would
[24:42]kept categorize what I was experiencing.
[24:44]My therapist literally said your job is killing you.
[24:47]That itself can have traumatic scars and coming out of it
[24:52]is it is a burden of post-traumatic stress.
[24:55]And so it does take a very long time to overcome
[24:59]the both psychological and physical scars of that period,
[25:05]which I actually have on my knees, as you notice.
[25:08]So not to mention all the eating stuff,
[25:11]which we don't even have time to get it, but we
[25:14]can have a whole separate podcast just on that.
[25:18]It just also speaks to your very human and understandable
[25:23]need for control in all of these situations
[25:25]that were out of your control.
[25:27]And the best way, of course, is writing.
[25:28]Look at that.
[25:29]So there you go.
[25:30]It is.
[25:31]Writing is really, for me, it wasn't so much.
[25:35]It wasn't therapeutic or cathartic.
[25:38]In the sense that when I was doing it, it felt healing.
[25:41]When I was doing it, it felt absolutely completely painful.
[25:44]And I also had to, I think many writers
[25:48]go through a version of this.
[25:49]And especially those who write memoir
[25:51]is confront a past version of themselves
[25:53]that maybe they feel that either they're not
[25:56]ready to confront yet or have awkward feelings about.
[25:59]And so I had a lot of those.
[26:01]And so the point is just to the more I had those feelings,
[26:06]and the more I said, OK, this is where I need to go.
[26:09]And question why I feel this sense.
[26:12]And so I tried to put all those feelings onto the page.
[26:16]Checklists.
[26:16]OK.
[26:19]All right.
[26:19]Well, Kerry, thank you so much.
[26:21]Thank you for coming on.
[26:22]I hope to continue this conversation some other way.
[26:25]I feel like we were just scratching the surface.
[26:27]OK.
[26:27]Absolutely.
[26:28]Thank you so much for the reason.
[26:29]All right.
[26:30]Good luck with launch and everything.
[26:31]OK, thank you for that.
[26:32]Bye.
[26:34]Thanks for listening to this episode
[26:35]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[26:41]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:43]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[26:45]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:47]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[26:51]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[26:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:55]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.