Hazel Hayes with Aparna Nancherla at Zibby's Bookshop
[0:04]Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Be Books with Zippy.
[0:07]I'm the host, Zippy Owens.
[0:09]I am an author, my latest is blank, pub date march first and novel.
[0:13]I'm also a podcaster, obviously, a publisher, a bookstore owner, and so much more.
[0:18]If you love books, you're in the right place.
[0:21]In fact, we call it the Zippyverse, or really, the LA Times called it the Zippyverse,
[0:25]and we're going with it.
[0:27]Go to Zippy Owens.com to learn more and follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens.
[0:33]The following was a conversation held at Zippy's bookshop,
[0:36]my independent book story in Santa Monica, California, and it was really fabulous,
[0:40]and I think you all should hear it.
[0:42]It was between Hazel Hayes and Aparna Nancharla.
[0:45]Hazel Hayes is an Irish-born London-based author and director who, for many years,
[0:50]wrote primarily for the screen.
[0:52]Having graduated from Dublin City University with a degree in journalism,
[0:55]she went on to study creative writing at the Irish Writers Center before
[0:59]honing her craft as a screenwriter through numerous short films and sketches.
[1:02]Her eight-part horror, prank me, one series of the year at SITC,
[1:06]as well as the award for excellence in storytelling at Buffer Festival in Toronto.
[1:09]Out of love was her first novel and better by far is coming out soon.
[1:14]Aparna Nancharla is a comedian and general silly-billy.
[1:17]Her sense of humor is dry, existential, and absurd, with notes of uncalled for whimsy.
[1:22]Think a wine you didn't order.
[1:24]Her book, Unreliable Narrator, Me, Myself, and imposter syndrome is currently available.
[1:29]She was also on my podcast for this book, but it was really cool to hear her talk to Hazel.
[1:33]You can hear Aparna as the voice of Moon, On Fox's The Great North,
[1:37]or have heard her as the voice of Holly Hawk on Bo Jack Horseman.
[1:40]You can currently watch Aparna in the drop on Hulu, or as Dr. Pocha on Lopez vs. Lopez.
[1:45]You may have watched Aparna as Grace, the belabered HR rep on the critically acclaimed
[1:49]comedy central show corporate.
[1:50]She also has a half-hour special on the second season of The Stand-Up's On Netflix,
[1:54]as well as appearances on Late Night with Stephen Colbert on CBS and two dove queens on HBO.
[1:59]Other acting credits include A Simple Favour, Modern Love, Bob's Burgers Crashing,
[2:04]Master of None, and Inside Amy Schumer.
[2:06]She's written for a totally biased, with W. Kamoo Bell and Late Night with Seth Meyers,
[2:10]as well as Mythic Quest on Apple Plus.
[2:12]Aparna was named one of the 50 funniest people right now by Rolling Stone,
[2:16]and in 2019, she was in a Super Bowl commercial with Michael Boobway for Sparkling Wine,
[2:21]Nate Seltzer.
[2:22]In 2016, she released her debut album Just Putting It Out There,
[2:25]on Tikno Tara's label, Vincent Ball Records, and recorded a half-hour special for Comedy Central.
[2:31]She was also chosen as one of Variety's top 10 comics to watch that year.
[2:34]Aparna currently lives in Los Angeles if you can even imagine.
[2:38]All righty, gorgeous.
[2:39]Well, yeah, thank you again for coming.
[2:41]I genuinely appreciate it.
[2:43]My name is Hazel Hayes.
[2:45]This is Aparna Nancharla, and yeah, we're just going to have a little chat.
[2:49]A little chat, a little chat about our work writing, about feelings, maybe.
[2:54]I feel like feelings are going to come up probably in the same tune.
[2:57]Yeah, well, we'll be links.
[2:58]And read a couple of little excerpts and take some questions,
[3:02]and I believe there's people watching at home as well.
[3:04]So hello.
[3:05]Hello.
[3:06]Yeah, let's just just dive on in.
[3:07]Yeah, we don't know each other very.
[3:09]We met one time.
[3:10]We met one time, and this is actually our first actual conversation.
[3:14]Yeah, which is just very natural.
[3:16]It's nice, sometimes I've done these kinds of things with people I know very well already,
[3:21]and it's almost harder, because you're asking questions you already know the answer too.
[3:25]Right, right, right.
[3:25]But in this case, I really, I really don't know.
[3:28]And we have not finished each other's books.
[3:31]Oh, it's so cool.
[3:33]No, it's really fun because we're very busy women.
[3:36]Yeah, but I thought we should be meeting it, and we didn't speak briefly.
[3:42]I called you the day to be like, I have not finished your book.
[3:44]Yeah, she's like, I have not finished your book.
[3:47]But that's good.
[3:48]But I love going in one.
[3:48]We need to get on the right over here.
[3:50]You were listening to me reading it?
[3:52]Because you read it and it's so good.
[3:54]It really puts you in there.
[3:55]Oh, thank you.
[3:56]I feel like I'm way more Irish when I'm reading as well.
[4:00]Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie.
[4:01]It's a different accent.
[4:04]Who doesn't?
[4:04]Who doesn't love an accent?
[4:06]So, yes, your book, which, by the way, it's one of those titles that I'm annoyed.
[4:11]I didn't come up with this by myself.
[4:13]Unreliable narrator.
[4:14]And it's about imposter syndrome.
[4:16]And I'm like, that's so clever.
[4:17]I wish I had thought of this.
[4:19]But diving straight in the way that you talk about imposter syndrome is so real.
[4:26]I found myself reading a thing like, do I have this?
[4:31]I feel like if I did, I'd be like, oh, hard relate.
[4:34]But instead, I feel like someone's slightly on the outside,
[4:37]understanding it more from your perspective.
[4:38]Oh, do you feel like it's something you don't always?
[4:41]Not don't at all.
[4:43]But definitely not to the levels that you were describing in the book.
[4:47]I think I've definitely had that feeling of like,
[4:50]I'm having it right now, honestly.
[4:52]You know, you're sort of sitting in a room with people looking and you're like,
[4:55]why are you looking at me?
[4:56]Like, what did I do?
[4:58]Yeah, I've had that thing of getting the job or getting publishers,
[5:02]getting the thing and sort of being worried.
[5:04]It's not good enough still.
[5:05]Yes.
[5:06]I actually, no, this is, maybe I do have it now.
[5:10]I had a thing where my publisher said the out of love came out in the UK
[5:15]with a crowdfunding publisher called Unbound because no one would have me.
[5:19]So I cried for under this.
[5:21]And then it did well.
[5:22]And then Penguin Random has picked up in the US.
[5:24]And I remember when I got really good feedback from them from my editor there,
[5:29]especially Cassidy Sachs, great name.
[5:32]And she was saying all these wonderful things.
[5:35]And then I convinced myself that they probably say really nice things about
[5:39]ship books too.
[5:42]I didn't see anything there.
[5:43]Yeah, I have to be fine.
[5:45]Yeah.
[5:45]So what I did was try to convince myself that my publisher is an idiot
[5:49]so that I could believe that I'm not good enough.
[5:51]I'm going to be instead of just like,
[5:53]yeah, it's very gradual marks.
[5:55]You know, I would not want to be a mint and burrow,
[5:57]but any club that would have me.
[5:59]That would have happened as a member.
[6:00]Yeah, absolutely.
[6:01]But yeah, I feel that way too, where like I sold,
[6:04]I was lucky enough to sell the book just based off of like a rough outline and the idea.
[6:09]And it's like, why not write a book about self-doubt?
[6:12]You know, I'm not so good at it.
[6:13]I've been feeling extremely in my whole life.
[6:16]And then, you know, it turns out,
[6:18]self-doubt is not a very great collaborator.
[6:21]Because when I was writing the book, I was like,
[6:22]oh, it seems like you really don't want me to finish.
[6:25]And I think that's kind of fair though.
[6:28]Like, I honestly feel like it would have been more like I would have had more integrity
[6:32]to write a book about imposter syndrome.
[6:33]And then it just like is like half of it is blank.
[6:37]Yeah, there's so many jokes you could have made.
[6:40]Yes.
[6:41]Yeah.
[6:41]And it's already a pretty funny book.
[6:43]I was laughing how I was reading it.
[6:44]And I could kind of hear it in your voice too.
[6:46]But yeah, did you have to resist the urge to like not go for the bit all the time?
[6:51]I think I addressed that right away.
[6:53]But then I was like, I can't keep talking about that.
[6:55]Like if someone actually is like taking the time to read this,
[6:58]like I should offer something besides the joke about how I do not feel capable of writing it.
[7:04]Yeah.
[7:05]How do you feel now that it's done and published and it is a thing in the world?
[7:09]Do you feel any differently?
[7:10]I don't know.
[7:10]As someone who has never, it's like my first book and I've, you know,
[7:13]I've had other things come out in terms of like, I do stand up and I've had, you know,
[7:18]TV sets come out or, you know, acting roles.
[7:22]And it feels, something about a book is so personal that it feels like once it's out there,
[7:27]it does feel a little bit like, like you like ripped your heart out of your body.
[7:32]And you're like, what do you guys think?
[7:34]You know, like, I have no idea, but not, but I don't know what you mean.
[7:37]It's like like before the feeling.
[7:41]And you know, I know it's on my heart.
[7:45]I'm so, so I think I've had to like detach a little from the feedback.
[7:49]Because I think, you know, your relationship to something you write is always going to be
[7:53]different than someone who reads it.
[7:55]Absolutely.
[7:55]Absolutely.
[7:56]On the flip side of me thinking my editor was an idiot for liking the book.
[8:00]I will then do things like, when I get a shit review,
[8:04]I go and look at a book that I know are objectively good.
[8:08]I look at that, like I went, I looked at like Joan Diddy and I'm good news and saw some people
[8:13]saying horrible things about her books.
[8:15]I was like, you're just wrong.
[8:16]I know.
[8:17]Which means they might be wrong about me.
[8:19]I know.
[8:20]You're like, you're like, you're good at what got a three.
[8:22]Like, I'm not doing so bad.
[8:24]Yeah, I got a one star review from a lady who did not like my use of the C word.
[8:29]Okay, but that's, I mean, that's nothing to do with skill.
[8:34]Ironically, she is.
[8:36]She is, but there we have it.
[8:38]That's really, I have a question.
[8:40]Do you read your bad reviews or is it just a view?
[8:42]Yeah, I love them.
[8:44]Yeah, yeah, I, I get great mileage out of my bad reviews.
[8:49]Like, you, you like to use them to turn them into something.
[8:53]Oh, this is just laugh at them.
[8:54]I just like, I don't know.
[8:57]I just, I posted them too.
[8:59]Okay, because there's a lot of like, oh, if I serve you four star of you,
[9:02]aren't I great?
[9:03]And then everyone's all I want to throw in like, here's a one star.
[9:06]This bitch was bored.
[9:08]One of them was just two stars bored.
[9:11]All caps, Escavation Market.
[9:13]I'm like, because you have to, you know, you take the good with the basket.
[9:17]No, and I'm not for everyone.
[9:18]And like, I always say, you know, like, I don't really like chocolate ice cream.
[9:22]Yeah, doesn't mean it's bad, right?
[9:24]All the more gasps.
[9:27]Yeah, like I said, I, so I would prefer strawberry.
[9:30]But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[9:31]But so that's how I try.
[9:33]I think I'm fine with the like, theoretical idea that I'm not for anybody,
[9:37]but I do not need to see it in print.
[9:39]That's fair.
[9:40]Yeah.
[9:40]Also, my bad reviews haven't been horrible.
[9:44]Okay.
[9:45]It's not like, you know, when we talk about, don't read the comments.
[9:47]And I know that you read your comments.
[9:49]I'm not sure why we're choosing that.
[9:51]Aparna, I called you not talking about this.
[9:52]Um, we know each other really well.
[9:54]If we'd, yeah, we're just a round second name.
[9:56]But yeah, I, I don't really read comments.
[10:00]on videos and that kind of stuff that go up now
[10:02]because I think it's also like if someone's,
[10:05]here's the thing, if someone has taken the time
[10:07]to read an entire book and they have thoughts on it,
[10:11]I'm like, that's valid.
[10:12]You know, I'm gonna give that,
[10:14]I'm gonna give that the time of day,
[10:15]but I do feel like the anonymous intranet troll
[10:19]is a different person, I'm not sure.
[10:20]Yeah, yeah.
[10:21]I'm also suspicious of anything that only has good reviews.
[10:25]That bitches me questioning.
[10:27]No, I'm like, we haven't even told you,
[10:29]you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[10:31]Nobody saw that.
[10:32]No one hates this bear.
[10:36]It's adorable bear, I'm suspicious about it.
[10:40]We, I have a question though,
[10:41]you're talking about out of love, right?
[10:42]Your first book in terms of it being crowded funded
[10:45]and then, yes, okay.
[10:46]Do you feel differently about your next,
[10:48]did you have a different process with your next book?
[10:51]That's cool.
[10:51]Yeah, very actually.
[10:53]So the second novel is called Better by Far
[10:57]and one hopes it is, ha, ha, ha.
[10:59]How many times am I gonna make that joke?
[11:01]I mean, every movie of all time.
[11:03]Yeah, it was a much, I think getting out of love
[11:06]off the ground felt so much more like a labor of love
[11:10]and a kind of an uphill battle
[11:13]and I was going out to publishers
[11:14]and every single one of them was like,
[11:16]but if it's told in reverse and they know the end,
[11:20]why will they keep reading?
[11:22]Yeah, no, thank you.
[11:23]So everyone said no to me
[11:25]and that's when I went with Unbound
[11:27]who, like I said, were crowdfunding and it did.
[11:29]It felt really like, I'm not in a bad way.
[11:31]It felt like I really had a community on board.
[11:34]I went out with them and I was like,
[11:35]listen guys, I have to crowdsource this.
[11:37]If you pre-order this is how I got to make the book.
[11:39]And it did and the sales were really, really good.
[11:43]And it just felt like there was this whole team behind me
[11:46]of like thousands of people who gave a shit.
[11:48]So this time around, I think was probably a more easier
[11:52]in one sense because Penguin
[11:53]were like, here's some money go right a book,
[11:56]but more lonely maybe?
[11:58]A little more isolated.
[11:59]I kind of felt like I was just
[12:01]in a world away.
[12:03]Yeah, like no one even knows of like I'm doing this.
[12:06]So at the end of it, there'll just be one.
[12:08]Yeah, I wonder if doing it with the crowdfunding
[12:11]kind of made it more communal or like just,
[12:14]yeah.
[12:15]And it felt like people were invested.
[12:17]And waiting.
[12:17]Yes.
[12:18]I wanted this.
[12:19]I think that was the big thing
[12:20]because with this one, I'm like, does anyone want this?
[12:22]Have I, have they forgotten about me?
[12:25]Am I just on care?
[12:27]You know, am I going to be locked in a room
[12:29]for all these years and then come out with a book?
[12:30]And everyone's going to be like, oh, who are you?
[12:32]Like, I don't want to hear you.
[12:34]I think that was a scary thing about writing
[12:36]to the book for me instead of doing stand up
[12:39]where the reaction is immediate.
[12:41]I was going to ask, because you're right there,
[12:43]you're either getting the last thing or not.
[12:44]You know, if you're bombing or you're doing really well,
[12:47]how did that feel in a very scary?
[12:51]And I think it's like you were saying like it kind of feels
[12:53]like, if I'm not out there, will people remember me?
[12:56]Yeah.
[12:57]I think that's a feeling kind of all of us have
[13:00]with how online, yeah, how online everyone is these days
[13:04]where it's like, if you're not posting,
[13:06]do you have that sandwich?
[13:08]Did you have the sandwich?
[13:09]If the sandwich gets eaten in the woods
[13:11]and no one's around to instit.
[13:15]But yeah, a part of it, by the way, is a very, very funny
[13:18]community as well.
[13:19]I was also chuckling away at your,
[13:21]at your son, I'm just like,
[13:22]to all my makeup, I'm just laughing away.
[13:25]But it's interesting how you,
[13:28]that's something I want to ask actually,
[13:29]bringing the comedy to the page.
[13:32]Yeah.
[13:33]How did that translate for you?
[13:34]Because I kind of went from script writing into a book.
[13:37]Oh, yeah, okay.
[13:38]And that's a more visual medium into this
[13:40]and you go from having your audience right there
[13:42]and being able to, I guess, perform the text.
[13:46]Yeah.
[13:47]Into trusting that someone's going to understand it
[13:49]from a page or get the tone of it from a page.
[13:52]Yeah. Well, I knew ahead of time that the book
[13:53]wasn't going to be strictly comedic.
[13:56]Like I knew it was going to be kind of a combination
[13:58]of some stuff that's more serious in my life
[14:00]just like with mental health and struggles with body image.
[14:03]And so I knew it wasn't going to just be like comedic,
[14:06]like fluffy essay.
[14:08]Yeah.
[14:08]So I was a little worried of how to balance that seriousness
[14:12]with jokes because I also felt like I couldn't write
[14:15]something without any jokes.
[14:16]So I often had kind of conversations
[14:19]with my editor that was like, does this feel funny enough?
[14:21]And I'm making too light of this subject.
[14:24]Like yeah, it was kind of tricky finding that balance sometimes.
[14:30]It's something I think about and talk about a lot.
[14:33]That's sort of the Nora Efron thing of like owning your story.
[14:37]And if I deliver it a certain way, now I'm not the victim
[14:42]and I didn't get my heart broken.
[14:44]I'm actually telling this funny story
[14:46]about this thing that happens to me.
[14:47]and I get to tell it my way with my own ending.
[14:49]Yeah.
[14:50]Did you feel that?
[14:51]Because I know like what you talk about on stage,
[14:53]it almost feels, how do I put it?
[14:56]There's a flippancy to stand up
[14:59]that you don't have those vulnerability with a book.
[15:01]And especially the topics that you're covering,
[15:03]you're talking about mental illness and eating disorders
[15:05]and body image and all that kind of stuff.
[15:08]Did you feel a catharsis in writing it your way?
[15:11]I think I thought I would.
[15:15]Okay, that was the hope.
[15:17]I think sometimes I just got more in my own head
[15:19]because I think you can sometimes go in circles
[15:22]with anxiety or depression where you know you're like,
[15:24]but then why do I do this?
[15:25]Or like, why?
[15:26]And then you just kind of end up like a snake eating
[15:29]its own tail.
[15:29]But I do think I wanted to write a book versus,
[15:33]you know, put some of this stuff in my stand up
[15:35]because like you're saying, stand up does have,
[15:37]you know, kind of the removal of its like set up punch lines
[15:40]kind of this meat package.
[15:41]And it's kind of, there's closure at the end.
[15:43]And I knew with a lot of these topics in my life,
[15:45]like there isn't any ending.
[15:47]And I feel like with a book,
[15:48]you can kind of sit in that ambiguousness more.
[15:52]But I was worried about how that would be received.
[15:55]How has it been received?
[15:56]I don't know because I don't read a name again.
[15:58]Of course.
[15:59]My peers, my friends had to be a bit nice,
[16:02]but I think it is even scary to imagine your friend
[16:05]reading it and be like, oh, that's more, that's all I did.
[16:07]Yeah, they're like, I thought I knew this woman image.
[16:11]No, yeah.
[16:13]Yeah, it's the thing of like, I would rather sing
[16:15]to 3,000 people than three, you know.
[16:18]I just thought intimacy of like having a friend
[16:21]or family, family reading your book
[16:25]and then asking you questions.
[16:27]And then in the new one,
[16:28]so in the new one, the protagonist,
[16:30]mother died when she was young.
[16:32]And so I'm home recently desperately trying to finish the thing
[16:35]and my mother keeps talking to me
[16:36]and she's wonderful, I love her.
[16:37]And she's like, she walks into the room one day
[16:42]and just announces that I've killed her off.
[16:46]Well, I don't know if you killed me off in this one.
[16:49]Okay, one, they're all fictional characters.
[16:54]Like, there's no two, that's it.
[16:56]They're fake stuff, they're fake stuff.
[16:57]But you know what, the author's mom reads their book,
[17:00]they're gonna be like, I'm the mom.
[17:02]And the mom?
[17:03]Yeah, and she, you know, in many ways,
[17:06]very much is the mother in out of love.
[17:09]Yeah.
[17:10]Yeah, I'm hearing gloves over here.
[17:11]She is, and she isn't in other ways,
[17:13]but she saw so much of herself there.
[17:15]And that was because it actually opened up conversations
[17:18]between us that I don't think we would have otherwise had.
[17:21]But yeah, she can't.
[17:22]I think the second one is weirdly at once more personal
[17:28]and also way more fictional.
[17:30]Oh, interesting.
[17:31]Yeah, it's more removed from my life
[17:33]and yet the feelings and it feels almost more personal to me.
[17:36]But yeah, she can't, she just can't quite get
[17:38]that they're not real people.
[17:40]Yeah, like I killed her off.
[17:41]I'm like, you're, it's, you're not her.
[17:44]I mean, I'm always doing that when I read authors
[17:46]like fiction books.
[17:47]I'm just like, that's, that's that thing, that's that guy.
[17:51]But yeah, I was gonna ask with your first book
[17:54]where you decided to write it in reverse.
[17:56]Was that, did you know that from the beginning
[17:58]or was that a decision you made?
[17:59]No, that was I had, so I had,
[18:04]I had learned to write, sort of I had learned to write
[18:07]about that.
[18:08]You're adorable.
[18:09]She's trying to get the context guys.
[18:11]Because if we don't get the content, we weren't even.
[18:13]Yeah.
[18:14]Oh, like, as how would we know that we said,
[18:18]I would know.
[18:20]It's just like no one saw because you were one foot lower.
[18:26]I love it.
[18:27]Oh, what was the question?
[18:29]Oh, just for out of love,
[18:32]with you, the structure of it.
[18:34]The structure?
[18:35]Yes, sorry.
[18:36]So I had learned to write with short stories.
[18:37]And then I got into script writing for a very, very long time.
[18:41]So I was, I was much more used to that.
[18:43]And then I wrote this short story about a breakup.
[18:47]It was just supposed to be a short story.
[18:49]I never, I never knew what it was going to be.
[18:51]It was just one of those times when it just
[18:53]has to come out.
[18:53]And it wasn't a script.
[18:55]It just came out in prose and showed this story
[18:57]to various people, friends and my agents and stuff.
[19:00]And they were like, okay, yeah, but you can write.
[19:02]Maybe could you do more?
[19:04]And he was particularly interesting
[19:05]because he was like, money, obviously.
[19:07]Yeah.
[19:08]That was a great book deal.
[19:09]He didn't love them when I wanted it in reverse
[19:11]and no one wanted to publish it, but he's happy now.
[19:14]Anyway, yeah, I wrote this story and then it was
[19:17]that question of can you make that a book?
[19:20]Could you go away and maybe make that a book?
[19:21]And I was sitting down thinking about it was like, I can,
[19:26]but it felt so contained and wrapped up
[19:30]by the end of that first chapter.
[19:33]They've gone through the breakup.
[19:35]She's done so much of her healing work.
[19:38]She's sort, you feel by the end of that chapter
[19:40]like she's made that one cup of tea and she's ready.
[19:44]And that didn't feel like the ending of the book,
[19:48]but it also didn't quite feel like a beginning.
[19:50]I didn't want to move forward from there.
[19:52]That just didn't really interest me.
[19:53]So yeah, I think one of the big questions,
[19:56]I always say that like when you go through a big breakup
[19:58]or anything, you know, you.
[20:00]They have a job or an ending of a chapter.
[20:01]You sort of reflect on it and you wonder.
[20:03]Was that good for me?
[20:04]Was that right?
[20:05]You know, particularly if it doesn't end well.
[20:06]Like, was I happy there?
[20:08]Was, you know, were we ever happy together?
[20:10]And it was all these questions sort of swimming around
[20:12]and so I decided to answer them instead
[20:14]and sort of then took the book backwards
[20:16]to do a sort of post-mortem on the relationship.
[20:20]And yeah, look at two people who had fallen out of love
[20:24]in a sort of slow puncture way.
[20:26]You know, because you often see in stories,
[20:29]it's this one big and exciting incident
[20:31]or someone cheats or someone shouts
[20:33]or someone runs someone over with their car.
[20:36]Actually half of the phone.
[20:37]He's fine, he's fine.
[20:40]He's like, I sit in a room for a moment.
[20:41]I don't know.
[20:45]Anyway, yeah, but so, and then I,
[20:47]so the next thing I did was write the second chapter
[20:49]to see what it would be like to jump backwards.
[20:51]Yeah.
[20:52]That little step.
[20:53]And then I wrote the very last chapter,
[20:55]which is the beginning of the relationship.
[20:57]And now I have AMB and then I thought of the battle
[21:00]over the place to get from there to there.
[21:02]So it was, yeah.
[21:03]Yeah, I think I found it refreshing
[21:05]because I think in my book, I kind of talk about how
[21:08]I feel like as a society, we love like an arc
[21:11]that starts like with someone struggling
[21:13]and then ends with crying.
[21:14]Oh, we love it.
[21:15]And how that's like so often, how life does not work.
[21:18]So I just, I'm so much more interested in stories of failure
[21:22]like the in-between of figuring things out
[21:24]than the like resolution that I just,
[21:27]yeah, I found that really like refreshing.
[21:29]Thank you.
[21:29]Yeah. And same, I liked, I liked that bit
[21:31]when you were like, I'm interested in the failure.
[21:33]Yeah.
[21:34]You know, we see so much success.
[21:35]And we, you know, I'm interested in the person
[21:37]who came second or third.
[21:38]I think it's like a set.
[21:38]And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's a more tasty story.
[21:42]Yeah, you can really kind of like sync your teeth
[21:44]into it a little bit more.
[21:45]Yeah. And I also think with success,
[21:47]sometimes it's like you think you want it.
[21:49]And I mean, obviously I'm not saying nobody should get it
[21:52]or like it's not desirable, but you do get there.
[21:55]And then you're kind of like, now what?
[21:57]You know?
[21:57]Oh, absolutely.
[21:58]I can be scarier in that way.
[22:00]Yeah, goals are awful.
[22:02]They're the worst.
[22:03]Because I always think like you, you set these goals
[22:06]like the really, the big ambitious ones,
[22:08]the big ones.
[22:09]And I think you either don't reach the goal.
[22:12]And then you feel crap that you didn't reach the goal.
[22:15]Or you do reach the goal.
[22:16]And you realize all your problems haven't gone away
[22:18]as a result of reaching the goal.
[22:19]So it's, they're very tricky things.
[22:22]And you have, yeah, I think it's taken,
[22:23]it's taken me a whole lifetime of,
[22:26]I guess setting new like a new relationship.
[22:28]Yeah, goals, you know, and knowing
[22:31]that I'm going to put that there.
[22:32]But when I get there, let's, yeah, set expectations
[22:35]around what that actually is.
[22:36]Like even with this, you know,
[22:37]my first book is going to come out.
[22:39]Great.
[22:39]And then they'll know.
[22:40]Yes, then they'll see, you know.
[22:42]And then all the movie deal will come in and then, you know,
[22:45]and then they'll want the second book of the third book
[22:46]and my life will change and I'll have so much money.
[22:49]And no, like none of that happened.
[22:51]And it's great.
[22:52]I'm not complaining.
[22:53]I love that I got to write a second one.
[22:54]But I think that was the level I needed to be that was,
[22:57]life will stay pretty much the same.
[22:59]And then you'll get to write a second one.
[23:00]And that will be nice.
[23:00]Yeah.
[23:01]And that's it.
[23:03]Yeah, I remember before my book came out,
[23:05]someone was like giving me advice,
[23:06]who had had a book come out and they were like,
[23:08]it's not going to be as good or as bad as you think it is.
[23:11]Like it's going to be fine.
[23:13]Yeah.
[23:14]Sometimes that's like the worst thing to hear.
[23:15]It's fine.
[23:17]There's my blood in it.
[23:18]Yeah.
[23:19]Like my blood is fine.
[23:21]My blood's on the, yeah.
[23:23]I'm thinking of your blood on the page.
[23:24]Would you like to read some?
[23:26]I mean, speaking to what we're talking about,
[23:28]I can read from the end sort of as an homage to your book.
[23:31]Okay, so this is from the epilogue.
[23:33]It's called epilogue.
[23:34]It's just called I tried.
[23:38]So I'll just read a little section.
[23:40]I wanted to write this book to fix my imposter syndrome.
[23:43]I assumed I could write my way out of it.
[23:46]But that's like saying, I'm going to sleep my way
[23:48]through this plate of food.
[23:49]When you try to write about your core insecurities,
[23:52]it turns out that sometimes they get louder.
[23:55]It's like all those horror movies
[23:56]where you're not supposed to touch the old relics.
[23:58]You touch the old relics?
[24:00]The spirits get pissed.
[24:01]You try to fix the mental demons.
[24:03]The demons create a mosh pit on your sense of self.
[24:07]But there is something I learned in this whole process
[24:09]and epiphany about epiphanies, if you will.
[24:12]And please don't employ you.
[24:14]They don't arrive on a schedule.
[24:16]And sometimes you're the last to know you're having one
[24:18]because epiphanies can take years to sink in.
[24:21]Yes, of course, there are those moments
[24:23]that strike like a bolt of lightning
[24:25]with a company in Thunderclap.
[24:26]But more often, there is no fanfare.
[24:29]And usually you still end up meeting to relearn the lesson again.
[24:32]But hey, at least you remember it better the next time
[24:34]around what with everything looking so familiar,
[24:37]like a dream you've had many times before.
[24:39]That's what I've learned about my own imposter syndrome.
[24:42]It's probably never going to really go away,
[24:44]but I can remember I've been here before.
[24:46]I'm late to most things in life.
[24:48]My own self-discovery had to be one of them
[24:50]before being on-brand.
[24:52]This entire book has been an exercise in hesitation.
[24:55]I frequently felt as though the more of it
[24:57]that came together, the more of me that came apart.
[25:00]Yet here we are at the end somehow.
[25:02]Only, there are no tidy conclusions are there.
[25:05]Most everything I've written about remains open-ended
[25:07]in my own life, ongoing battles that must be faced
[25:10]and negotiated without fanfare.
[25:12]I wish I knew another way to do it,
[25:14]but this looks like it's it.
[25:18]Beautiful.
[25:22]So funny sometimes when you realize we could have been
[25:24]sitting here chatting about that for so long,
[25:26]and you've already, you said it better.
[25:29]No, no, no, no, no.
[25:31]Like sometimes someone just puts something into words.
[25:32]They're like, that was the feeling.
[25:34]That was it.
[25:35]I just hadn't, I just hadn't quite hit on that.
[25:37]Oh, yeah, that's beautiful.
[25:39]And have you made peace with that?
[25:41]Like not.
[25:41]Yeah, I think at first I didn't,
[25:43]or I mean, I did with myself,
[25:45]but I think in putting it out in the world,
[25:47]I sort of had that same feeling as you have like,
[25:49]now people will really get me,
[25:51]they'll read what I said, and they'll like finally get,
[25:54]but part of the book is about how I've always kind of
[25:56]felt like an outsider, and I think it did.
[25:59]It may be realized that even writing about it
[26:01]isn't necessarily gonna take that feeling away,
[26:04]but it is going to, you know, hopefully connect
[26:07]with people when they read it.
[26:09]Yeah.
[26:10]Yeah.
[26:11]There's definitely, there's the ups and downs,
[26:13]and it's interesting that you sort of said
[26:14]you didn't feel like you've got the catharsis
[26:17]from a necessarily.
[26:18]Yeah, but I think I also romanticize what catharsis
[26:20]should look like.
[26:21]Right.
[26:22]I want the goals again.
[26:23]Yes.
[26:24]Yeah.
[26:25]I wanted to be grand and like sweeping and.
[26:27]Oh, yeah.
[26:28]Fixed.
[26:29]You wanted to be fixed.
[26:29]Yeah.
[26:30]But yeah, you hear people talk about writing.
[26:32]It's in and then they're fixed.
[26:33]Yeah.
[26:34]But where's mine?
[26:35]Where am I going to be?
[26:36]Sometimes it's like a feeling like personal growth
[26:39]will be like your at lunch, and you like look at an Instagram
[26:42]thing, and you're like, I didn't feel bad.
[26:46]Wow.
[26:47]I'm better today.
[26:50]It was like two o'clock on a Tuesday.
[26:52]Yeah.
[26:53]But those are the little ways.
[26:54]Those are the things that I didn't feel bad.
[26:57]It's such a huge thing.
[26:58]Yeah, I think that's, I hadn't quite put it that way
[27:01]before, but with writing this, that was a similar thing
[27:05]with, I guess, looking back at past relationships
[27:08]and the regret and the resentment that you still harbor
[27:10]and the anger and all of that.
[27:12]I think having to get inside the mind of a character, who
[27:18]sort of represented relationships I had been in men
[27:22]I had been with, having to sort of get inside his skin
[27:26]and sympathize, I guess, because you can't,
[27:28]you can't write anyone villain or not that I think he's
[27:31]a villain in this book, but you can't
[27:32]without really sympathizing and really getting
[27:35]inside the decisions that they make and why they make them.
[27:39]And yeah, I felt by the end of it,
[27:43]I was looking back more fondly at people, not just
[27:46]relationships, but just sort of people who'd kind of come
[27:48]and go from my life and friendships that had ended,
[27:51]or whatever things that had ended on bad terms.
[27:53]And just felt a little softer, I guess,
[27:55]because of that.
[27:56]So that when their name did pop up,
[27:58]I just didn't feel quite as bad.
[28:00]Right, I guess, Charlie.
[28:02]Yeah, it was in this raw, I guess.
[28:04]There was more of an understanding there for them.
[28:08]Yeah, which I didn't expect.
[28:09]I think I expected a lot of my own healing,
[28:11]and a lot of more understanding about myself and my things.
[28:14]But yeah, even writing with the mother character.
[28:17]You know, like has kind of changed my relationship
[28:20]with my mother a little bit.
[28:21]And even my, yeah, sister, yeah, everyone in it, I think,
[28:25]except for one person is so nervous.
[28:28]I don't really know what I mean.
[28:32]Do you want to read from your upcoming book?
[28:34]I would love to.
[28:35]Yes, so I have a copy of this one, but I don't have a copy
[28:39]of the new book, because it doesn't exist.
[28:42]Two people in the world have a copy.
[28:44]It's Matt Hagan, David Nichols.
[28:46]I made one of them send me a picture of her.
[28:48]Oh, thanks.
[28:49]I think that I see her.
[28:51]Is she safe as well?
[28:53]Have you made her tea?
[28:55]You're like, I have not made tea yet.
[28:56]I will.
[28:57]But yeah, so I'm going to read from the new book,
[28:59]but not it will be from a screen, which
[29:01]is the only way I've seen it so far.
[29:02]I can't wait to have it in my hands.
[29:04]I'm also not sure how much trees I'm just going to start reading.
[29:07]And I will stop at a time when it feels like it's appropriate
[29:08]stuff.
[29:09]This is the very beginning of the book.
[29:12]It's this chapter is called Till February.
[29:14]And I'm about to go way more Irish.
[29:17]Expected by the end, by the end, I'll be back in full Dublin.
[29:21]I'm supposed to be writing a book.
[29:23]But instead, I find myself writing to you.
[29:26]I prepare the blank page, ready to pour myself onto it.
[29:28]But all that comes out is your absence,
[29:30]which feels so much more like a presence.
[29:33]How odd that the language of grief is one of loss.
[29:36]People describe feeling empty, hollow carved out.
[29:40]When, for me, grief is heavy.
[29:42]There's a weight to it, a density.
[29:44]In Irish, we don't say, I am sad.
[29:46]We say, top roen, or I'm, there is sadness on me.
[29:49]And we don't say someone is grieving.
[29:51]We say they are free veiler, under grief.
[29:54]The phrase going into mourning literally translates
[29:56]as putting on a robe of sorrow.
[29:58]We wear our feelings.
[30:00]Wrapping them around ourselves like cloaks that separate us from the world and grief is the heaviest one of all
[30:05]Today unsatisfied with simply weighing me down grief finds a way to slip inside me filling me up like some tar like creature
[30:11]That clogs my throat and lungs and crams itself into the cavities between my organs
[30:16]You've only been gone a few hours and already I am tortured with the lack of you I
[30:21]Say you're gone, but you're not really not yet your clothes are still hanging in the wardrobe your CDs are stacked alphabetically
[30:27]On the shelf above the stereo your squash racket is over there by the door you said you wouldn't need it this week
[30:32]You even left your passport here in the top drawer of your bedside table
[30:36]It occurred to me just moments ago to check if it was there and I must admit my relief at finding it
[30:41]Not that it matters where you are I suppose if we won't be seeing each other anyway
[30:44]It's just easier knowing you're stuck here too and drizzly dark Dublin where places carry with them reminders of me
[30:50]And not sitting at a table by some quaint town square in Paris perhaps or maybe Croatia. Yeah, that feels right Croatia
[30:57]With its mild evenings cobbled streets and local beer on tap local women too all of them perfect in your eyes because you
[31:04]Don't know them yet haven't fought with them yet haven't seen them sick or sad or suicidal
[31:10]Perched on the edge of our bed with your passport in my hands
[31:12]I picture one of these women approaching you with an easy smile all over tan and oodles of sympathy for the broken-hearted boy
[31:19]Reading a book outside her favorite cafe
[31:21]I let myself linger on the scene for far too long
[31:24]Right up to the point where you wake up face down asset legs tangled in her ridiculously white sheets
[31:30]The whole scene is in fact
[31:32]impossibly white bright to the point of overexposure
[31:35]She opens her eyes stretches her long limbs one corner of her mouth curls up good morning. She purrs
[31:42]Stop it. I tell myself flinging your passport back in the drawer
[31:45]He isn't in Croatia. He's in his brother's filthy flat in Luka
[31:49]Unfortunately, knowing a story isn't real doesn't make the feelings it evokes any less real
[31:54]And so I'm left with all the jealousy and rage churned up my own pathetic work of fiction
[31:59]Why can't I write an actual work of fiction a real writer would spin this breakup into gold a real writer would
[32:05]Chew it up and spit out a novel so magnificent. It would make all the heartbreak worthwhile
[32:10]Kerrit even a real writer would sell a million copies and buy herself a mansion paid for with pain
[32:17]My shoulders slumped forward like my skeleton is suddenly vanished leaving the vague shape of a human behind
[32:22]I slide slug like onto your side of the bed and instantly begin to cry. It's not a particularly loud or deliberate cry
[32:29]My face doesn't contort or change. I just stare at the wall as tears flow involuntarily down my face like blood boring from a wind
[32:36]I hate these walls these bare eggshell walls. I hate the potential. I saw in them
[32:44]She's so sad
[32:48]Just feel like I was so in the sea
[32:51]Yeah, you're writing. It's just so evocative. Thank you so much
[32:55]It's so strange as well to know that people are listening to an audiobook and hearing my voice and their ears
[33:01]I don't know why I kind of get my head around this particular thing
[33:05]It's probably the nature of it like the first book being so personal. Yeah, like I don't know
[33:10]It's great. It's just great. I don't like it's so hard to put my finger on like the idea that someone's like lying in bed
[33:16]In the dark snuggle though
[33:19]I'm lying there like in the right hand saying like kind of intense
[33:26]Well, what would you like 15 year old self? Thank you. She'd be like she probably need to light it
[33:31]Yeah, I have I have to do that regularly. Do you ever do this?
[33:34]What what would baby Aparna think of I do I know weird relationship with baby Aparna because I think she'd be like who are you you know
[33:41]Really my visitor from the future she's like
[33:45]I don't know you
[33:47]But not in a knee
[33:50]She just added a different path. Do you think you guys would get along? Yeah, I think we just have to you know get warm up to each other
[33:58]Yeah, yeah, I think weirdly I sometimes think about that interaction
[34:02]I'm like I feel like I'd get more out of it than she would
[34:05]She was probably fun. Yeah, probably kind of cool
[34:08]I see it like when I'm hanging with my nieces or whatever
[34:10]Like I wonder was I like this because they're kind of cool. Yeah, I look at my younger self a little negatively
[34:15]You know some of the time so I'm like she's probably was chill. Yeah. Yeah, yeah
[34:20]Absolutely fine. It's randomly popped into my head because we're talking about our younger selves that
[34:26]The thing that really got me when you were talking about your imposter syndrome was hell
[34:30]So you had developed an eating disorder. I'm laughing and that sounds so mean
[34:35]You're probably in this order
[34:37]Classic comedy and you you went to a facility of some sort to get better. Yeah, and you felt like an imposter
[34:47]Yeah, in the place. I did because I didn't my case was not severe enough for me to be an overnight patient
[34:54]So that really
[34:56]A patient but because I didn't live like in that area
[34:59]They were like, okay, we guess you can be residential because you can't commute
[35:02]Yeah, I just love they were like
[35:06]I just like I don't eat the criteria
[35:09]It's not bad enough. Yeah, if only it was a more severe case. Yeah
[35:13]It might be taken seriously
[35:14]And it was just so funny that I hadn't really thought about imposter syndrome in I know the flip way
[35:19]I know where we've all had that thing of like well, I'm not that depressed. You know, well, I don't currently want to die
[35:26]So like I guess I'm okay
[35:29]I
[35:33]She wears her so much better
[35:37]Better depressed. Yeah, yeah, she's a better anxious, right? Yeah
[35:44]She's monetizing
[35:54]You monetize your depression way better than me babe
[35:57]You're you're my goals
[36:00]I feel like we're gonna need to
[36:12]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books
[36:15]Don't forget to follow me on instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books
[36:20]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on
[36:26]Every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan fact texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this
[36:34]Fantastic intro and out trim music