Carola Lovering, BYE, BABY
[0:04]Welcome to mom's don't have time to be books with Zivi I'm the host Zivi Owens
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[0:33]Kerala Lovering is the author of Buy Baby and novel. Kerala is the author of the
[0:37]novels Tell Me Lies, Do Good to Be True, Can't Look Away and now Buy Baby
[0:41]she's a graduate at Colorado College and her work has appeared in the cut
[0:45]Vogue Marie Claire W magazine National Geographic Outside and Yoga Journal
[0:49]among other publications. Her novel Tell Me Lies has been adapted into a
[0:53]television series for Hulu. She lives in Connecticut with her husband and
[0:56]two young children. Welcome Kerala thank you so much for coming on mom's
[1:00]don't have time to read books to discuss Buy Baby and novel. Thank you so much
[1:05]for having me Zivi. I'm such a giant fan of this podcast. It's very surreal to
[1:09]be on here. I honestly listen to this all the time so I'm super honored. That's
[1:14]really exciting. Well your book kept me up so late when I was reading it I could
[1:20]not stop reading it. My husband's like okay enough and I'm like just don't talk
[1:24]to me right now don't talk to me. I really got so engrossed and got totally
[1:30]just into the lives of these characters and haunted by Wade and just like
[1:37]I mean it was just so vividly depicted and I didn't know how I was gonna end
[1:43]and anyway so it was really fun. Thank you I love to hear that. It really means a
[1:48]lot. That's I always like to read books that keep me up at night so yeah great
[1:54]endorsement. Thank you. I actually heard your husband. No no it's okay I don't
[1:58]read that many thrillers. I don't know why or psychological suspense every
[2:03]so often and then when I do they like really get me which is good you know. Yeah
[2:07]and this is like I wouldn't call it a thriller so maybe this is a good I
[2:12]don't know entry point for you it's like thriller lights. Yes. Yes suspense.
[2:17]It's like that's why yeah I was seen as the word thriller came out of my
[2:20]mouth I'm like oh I'm not supposed to call it a thriller because nobody I don't
[2:24]know. Thriller's like anyway. Okay why not you tell listeners what by baby is
[2:28]a vet. Yes of course so by baby is the story of a very complicated ultimately
[2:36]toxic friendship between two women named Billy and Cassie. Billy and Cassie have
[2:41]been best friends for the majority of their lives until recently so we meet
[2:47]them when they're in their mid 30s. They're both living in New York City where
[2:51]the majority of the novel takes place and over the past two or three years
[2:56]they've begun to drift apart. Cassie has a brand new baby she's newly married.
[3:03]She has a burgeoning career as a lifestyle and fashion influencer and has this
[3:09]whole fancy side of new mom friends in Grimmer Sea Park where they live and Billy on
[3:16]the contrary is single dating child free by choice and she feels very pushed
[3:23]out by Cassie and Cassie's new priorities. So the catalyst for this book it's not
[3:29]a spoiler it happens on page one as you know Cassie's infant daughter both
[3:34]missing and we the reader this happens at a party and we the reader learn
[3:41]unbeknown to Cassie that Billy is responsible for the kidnapping and from there
[3:48]the novel goes back in time into different timelines so the first timeline is
[3:53]starts about six weeks earlier and tells the story of the events that have led
[4:00]to the kidnapping in recent weeks and the second timeline goes back much
[4:05]further to the early ots when Cassie and Billy first meet in middle school
[4:10]in their Hudson Valley hometown and this timeline tells the story of their
[4:16]friendship over the years so it is it's definitely a suspense and I also see it
[4:21]as a meditation on female friendship and how friendships change in a ball
[4:29]as the people in them change in a ball. Yes. Well you've definitely got to the
[4:35]heart of the complications embedded when you're jealous of somebody a little
[4:41]bit or your lives seem to go and I feel like Cassie's life has exploded
[4:47]right like she's up to almost 50,000 followers and Cassie has a great job but
[4:52]she's just not that it's not the same right her travel stuff yeah and there
[4:58]was a point I don't know I kind of related to this because sometimes I post
[5:02]and I'd like don't do my emails or texts and it's like why do I not text
[5:06]people back when I have time to like post the longest caption possible on
[5:10]this like literally like obviously I could have chosen to spend my time
[5:14]differently but I didn't but there's there's a lot of that we're like just
[5:18]because she has a baby and she's on Instagram like she doesn't have time to
[5:22]text me back like what do you mean so she feels you know Billy feels just so not
[5:27]important anymore and so then she just keeps watching and hoping and I
[5:31]don't know I just I felt very raw. Yes no totally and I've definitely
[5:39]experienced that too where I'll post something on Instagram and then
[5:43]realize that you know I haven't answered someone text someone's text and
[5:46]like at this point I think it's okay I think that you know we can't like be
[5:51]doing everything all at once and if you have a job where you need to post on
[5:55]social media like that's part of work and yes you know so that's what it's
[6:00]like for Cassie but yes I think I mean it was I wanted to make her an influencer
[6:04]partly because I wanted Billy to have this window into her life which is this
[6:10]in this very weak like strange time that we live in now where you might not
[6:15]talk to somebody but you can if they're active on social media in a in any
[6:21]way but obviously Cassie is in a big way it's her career you know a friend
[6:26]can always see what you're up to and it's it's I think that it lent itself to
[6:32]some of the suspense in the book and yeah it was fun to write her as an
[6:37]influencer for sure. I feel like then there's the moment at the party where when
[6:41]the detective is asking you know like does it would anyone have known where you
[6:46]are and what you're doing it's like yeah like 50,000 people knew what I was
[6:50]doing and exactly where is our choice and it's like you're like oh my gosh it
[6:54]could have been anywhere and then you're thinking you're self-reading or I was
[6:57]like why would anyone do that and then I'm like why do I do that like this is
[7:02]so stupid I should not you know like but we all now it's so normal like oh yeah
[7:07]I don't know I mean I know totally yeah it was obviously like you know that
[7:16]that scene is and and the whole the kidnapping element is very extreme and
[7:21]it's a plot device that's used to engender the suspense but it it isn't
[7:27]entirely out of the realm of possibility for anyone who's posting online for
[7:31]something creepy like that to happen. Yeah well now everyone in the world will
[7:36]be afraid to post. What happened to it? Well there was this carol covering
[7:42]book that came out in 2020 for whenever it is 24 yes I think I'm I think I'm
[7:48]powerless again. What's a Instagram? But what was the you know you're talking about
[7:56]some inspiration for these characters and everything was there a relationship in
[7:59]your life or a friend or anything that came from a personal place that found
[8:04]its way into the book or that inspired pieces of the book? Yeah absolutely I
[8:07]mean I would say that this book second to tell me lies is is the most personal
[8:12]book I've written not in a super specific way like there wasn't one friend I
[8:18]was thinking of when I was writing but more just the general theme of
[8:24]getting older and you know being in really solidified in adulthood and
[8:28]finding that you're growing apart from people that you never imagined you
[8:32]grow apart from. I think that you know that's for me been a big part of my 30s
[8:38]and 35 and I started writing this book when I was in my earlier 30s and it
[8:42]just it was a time when all of these feelings about friendship were kind of
[8:47]right underneath the surface for me and it felt really accessible to write
[8:50]this story. I just you know I think that you get to a certain point and
[8:55]realize that not every friendship is going to grow with you just like you can't
[9:00]grow with every friend and along the way like unfortunately some friendships
[9:07]are going to drift apart and that's part of life but there's a lot of pain
[9:12]involved and there's a lot of complicated emotions and confusion and I
[9:19]definitely feel like I have been both Cassie and Billy which was a really
[9:24]interesting part. I'm writing this book because I've always written
[9:30]multi POVs in my novels but this was the first one where I really I really
[9:35]identified equally with both main characters like usually there's one person
[9:40]that I'm more drawn to in terms of like identifying with them but here I
[9:46]really felt split between like I got Billy's perspective I have been the
[9:52]scorned friend who like feels left out by somebody that she's been close
[9:56]with for a long time and can't get a text back and that's
[10:00]It's really hard and confusing.
[10:02]And then on the other hand, I've also experienced some
[10:06]of Cassie's feelings, which arguably
[10:09]are a little more complicated because Cassie
[10:13]is in the position, which I've definitely
[10:15]been in needing to set boundaries with a friend.
[10:18]And that's not easy.
[10:20]And there's guilt involved.
[10:23]And it's kind of, I don't know if it's equally hard,
[10:28]but it's just, there's pain on both sides.
[10:32]And I've definitely experienced that.
[10:36]So yeah, this book was really cathartic to write, actually.
[10:40]There were some scenes when I felt like I was journaling.
[10:43]And it was, it was great.
[10:44]I always find that like when I'm writing a book that
[10:46]feels more personal to me.
[10:48]It just, it's so much easier.
[10:50]Well, I feel like you can tell sometimes
[10:52]when you're reading, if somebody really cares.
[10:54]You can totally tell.
[10:57]Yeah.
[10:57]So it definitely makes for a better experience
[11:01]from both the author and the reader.
[11:02]It's like, why force it?
[11:04]Yeah, if you're not loving it, I mean, no,
[11:06]I guess we went to some pretty extreme places.
[11:09]I mean, I think that both characters are unlikable.
[11:13]So I definitely don't, I don't think of myself
[11:16]as being as ruthless as Cassie, but I think that there's
[11:20]something to real, I hope that there's
[11:22]something to relate to from a range of angles for readers.
[11:27]Totally.
[11:27]Tell me more about becoming a novelist in general.
[11:30]And were you into writing as a kid?
[11:34]And like where did this all come from?
[11:35]And when did you know you could kind of do this
[11:37]as a career and all of that?
[11:39]Yeah, so I feel like my answer is kind of different.
[11:44]Like I never, I always loved writing,
[11:47]but I never set out to be a novelist really.
[11:50]It sort of found me.
[11:53]I was in my 20s and I was working in,
[11:57]I had majored in English and I'd always loved writing
[12:00]and reading and I had wanted to go into book
[12:02]or magazine publishing after graduation.
[12:05]But at the time, like those jobs were just so few
[12:08]and far between.
[12:09]I didn't get any of them in the first job
[12:12]that I got was in PR, but I didn't love it.
[12:15]And I was, I wanted to do something more creative.
[12:18]And I had started freelance writing a little bit
[12:24]for publications like Elite Daily and Thought Catalog.
[12:28]I don't know if you remember Thought Catalog.
[12:30]It was like big back in, I don't know, 2013.
[12:34]And at the time I was in the aftermath of this toxic
[12:41]relationship that I had been through in college
[12:44]and for like a couple of years afterwards,
[12:48]that was the inspiration for Tell Me Lies.
[12:50]And I was, I had a ton of unresolved feelings
[12:55]over that experience, that a close friend of mine,
[12:59]she made this suggestion.
[13:01]She was like, I know you're trying to write more.
[13:03]Like why don't you try to write about this toxic relationship?
[13:07]And so I was really inspired by that
[13:10]and I started to do that and just gained momentum
[13:14]and really loved it and decided that I wanted to try
[13:17]to turn it into a novel.
[13:19]And so that was really how I started writing novels.
[13:22]Like I had never written creatively before that.
[13:25]And yeah, I worked on that book kind of on the side
[13:30]of my day job, day job for a few years.
[13:32]And then I got a lot of rejection, pitched a lot of agents.
[13:37]We got a lot of, a lot of nose, but then finally found
[13:41]my agent and my editor and this is now my career.
[13:45]And I feel so, so lucky to be able to do it.
[13:47]I love it more than anything.
[13:50]Oh my gosh.
[13:51]So people who don't know tell me lies.
[13:53]Tell them about that.
[13:54]But don't lie about it.
[13:56]Don't lie about it.
[13:57]Well, tell me lies is my debut novel, which came out in 2018
[14:03]and is now Hulu show, which is like the most surreal thing
[14:06]in the world.
[14:07]What is that?
[14:08]It really, I still can't believe it.
[14:10]It's like, it doesn't feel, I feel like I'm listening
[14:13]to someone else say that when I say that.
[14:14]It's really crazy.
[14:16]And I feel very, very lucky that it made it onto the screen
[14:21]for so many reasons.
[14:22]But that's, yeah, that is the first book that I wrote.
[14:26]And it's inspired by, I mean, it's very much fiction.
[14:31]But it's inspired loosely by an experience
[14:34]that I went through in college.
[14:36]And it talks a relationship.
[14:37]And it's about, it's kind of about that relationship
[14:41]that you know you shouldn't be in, but you can't get out of.
[14:45]And it goes on and on for too long.
[14:48]Oh, I thought you meant the book.
[14:49]I was like, what?
[14:51]Hopefully not the book.
[14:53]The relationship.
[14:54]Yeah.
[14:56]Yeah, so hopefully not the book.
[14:57]And yeah, there's a little bit of a suspense element
[15:03]and tell me lies as well, which is sort of how I got onto
[15:07]the suspense train in my writing.
[15:10]And yeah, so now it's a season on Hulu.
[15:13]And they're hopefully soon starting to film season two.
[15:19]Wow.
[15:19]That's so cool.
[15:20]Good for you.
[15:21]Really.
[15:22]Thank you.
[15:23]Oh my gosh.
[15:23]Thank you.
[15:24]It's, yeah, I feel very blessed.
[15:26]Wow.
[15:27]Well, by baby, it's not just about Billy and Cassie.
[15:30]I mean, they're all the supporting characters
[15:31]who play big roles too.
[15:33]It's also, you know, what's in a Mary Kay or Karian?
[15:37]What's your name?
[15:37]Mary Kay.
[15:38]Okay, okay, sorry.
[15:40]The Kay plays a role and so do supporting characters.
[15:44]Like the mom who has early onset Alzheimer's, which is so sad
[15:48]in which she did a really beautiful job writing about this author
[15:51]who we've been sort of touring lately
[15:53]and who I've been spending a ton of time with Emma Gray,
[15:55]her mother died of dementia and she had to witness that.
[15:59]And the way you wrote about it is so similar to the way
[16:01]she's been talking about it at all these events.
[16:03]And just, you know, it felt very, very real.
[16:06]Have you had experienced that or did you just,
[16:08]did you read about it or, because the way you wrote about it
[16:11]seems to be from what I keep hearing very on point.
[16:16]Thank you.
[16:16]Well, I actually just listened to your episode with Emma Gray.
[16:20]Oh, you did.
[16:21]Yes, and I really, her book sounds so good.
[16:23]I need to get it.
[16:24]It sounds amazing.
[16:25]I'll send it to you.
[16:26]I'll send it to you.
[16:27]I know it's a zippy book, oh, I love that.
[16:28]And yeah, no, I haven't experienced that.
[16:33]So thank you for saying that that I'm glad
[16:35]that it felt real.
[16:37]No, I haven't experienced that.
[16:38]I mean, my grandfather had dementia,
[16:41]but it wasn't like, I don't know.
[16:43]I wasn't really close.
[16:46]I wasn't seeing it super close up.
[16:48]I did some research on it and read about it.
[16:51]And yeah, it was heartbreaking to write.
[16:56]I'm just imagining that.
[16:57]And I, you know, it's so hard.
[17:00]I can't imagine going through the app,
[17:02]but it's so, it's common and obviously.
[17:04]And as people get older and so I just wanted,
[17:10]I wanted Billy to really have like real trauma that,
[17:15]and I don't want to give any spoilers,
[17:17]but I wanted her to have a real trauma bond to Cassie
[17:20]and kind of show that that's why she can't let go.
[17:25]And they're so ingrained in each other's lives.
[17:27]I was also really for the past chapters.
[17:30]I was so inspired by the paper palace.
[17:34]Love that book, which is like one of my favorite books.
[17:36]And I remember I had just started reading it
[17:39]when I sat down to write by baby.
[17:41]And it's really what made me want to
[17:44]like have those past chapter flashbacks.
[17:48]And I know she doesn't touch on like dementia specifically,
[17:52]but I feel like in that book there's just so much
[17:55]that happens to the character in her backstory
[17:58]that really kind of solidifies her trauma.
[18:01]And I was really inspired by that.
[18:03]Interesting.
[18:04]Yeah, I love that book.
[18:06]I read it right before, like my podcast was before pub.
[18:11]And I remember reading it and being like,
[18:12]okay, if this book doesn't do well, like I quit.
[18:16]Jeremy, like this book is so good, like it's so good.
[18:20]I keep waiting for her to come out with something else.
[18:23]I know, that would be great.
[18:24]I loved it.
[18:25]Yeah.
[18:27]What other types of books do you like to read in your spare time?
[18:30]Well, I'm a very slow reader, especially right now.
[18:33]I have a three year old and a one year old.
[18:36]Oh, it really just does not.
[18:40]It prohibits my reading time.
[18:42]But I read, I do like to read suspense.
[18:46]Sometimes thrillers, but I would say more like more books
[18:50]that are kind of light thrillers, suspense,
[18:53]and a little bit more literary,
[18:54]like to let that go too.
[18:57]And honestly, like just any books that are being highly
[19:02]recommended to me by people that I know I share
[19:04]cased with is kind of like where I where I gravitate.
[19:09]But my list is so long of books that I want to read.
[19:13]So when you were writing this book,
[19:15]did you, did you have any kids or was it before it must
[19:19]have been you had a baby or what was that like?
[19:21]I had my first baby.
[19:23]And that actually is like kind of was a whole another element
[19:26]that played into some of the content in this book
[19:29]was like me being a new mom and feeling, you know,
[19:33]the range of emotions and the isolation and the intrusive
[19:39]thoughts that Cassie feels like that was all,
[19:42]that was all kind of playing around in my head
[19:43]to my son had just turned one at the time
[19:46]that I started writing this.
[19:47]And so I wrote this book like we didn't,
[19:50]he was born in 2020 during COVID.
[19:52]We didn't have any child care for a full year
[19:55]because it was COVID.
[19:57]And then when he turned one, we got.
[20:00]a part-time nanny and I was like I'm gonna start working on something new and so I wrote it
[20:07]during like his from when he was one to age two and then I was I got pregnant
[20:13]like halfway through the writing process and I finished the book right before my daughter was born.
[20:19]So I wrote it with one child and now I'm trying to write something with two kids
[20:26]and that feels like a whole like writing with one child felt much more manageable to me than
[20:33]trying to write with two children. I know you have four kids so that's a whole other conversation.
[20:37]I don't know how you do it. They're older but they're much older now. I mean my twins are
[20:44]16 and a half which sounds crazy. My daughter's been reminding me that she's going to be 17
[20:49]on her next birthday which is like a joke because she's still like oh my gosh that her socks away
[20:53]and like anyway and then my little guys aren't even so little they're 9 and 10 so you know
[20:59]yeah like take care of themselves not that they're not like not that they don't want attention
[21:04]but right now I'll say I pads you know friends they do that. Totally yeah with the TV is
[21:11]is on in our house probably too much so I just feel like at one and three though like you're so
[21:18]in it yourself emotionally like you're it's not in the sleep is so affected like with older kids
[21:25]you know they need you but it's it's not like you're like in full-on trenches at the moment like
[21:31]this is deep past territory. Very in the trenches. Yeah and I remind myself of that and I know it's
[21:37]not always going to be like that and it's but there are so many precious moments and I know
[21:43]they're fleeting. I want to appreciate all of it but it's also it is hard and I was actually talking
[21:48]to a writer friend about this a couple days ago like it's in what you were saying like the mental
[21:56]piece is hard for writing because writing requires you know a lot of mental space and clarity and
[22:05]when you have little kids you can't really have that and I think that there's you know when I'm
[22:11]working on a novel there's it's important to not just be sitting at my computer but also
[22:17]taking walks and thinking and you know I like to go to yoga and think but I don't really get to do
[22:24]that stuff very often anymore and so I often find I'm just trying to get my words in every day and
[22:31]I'm like is this book going to be terrible you know it's just you you doubt yourself and I'm like
[22:36]I don't I feel like I don't have I'm not in the environment right now that I need to be in
[22:41]to do my best work but you just have to do it anyway so you know and whatever is created
[22:49]during this time will be like I don't know ever like what I'm going through will somehow make
[22:55]its way into my work and it'll be its own like that's all I feel about tell me lies I wrote that
[23:01]book at such a specific time in my life when I was going through such a hard time and it's
[23:07]I look back on it and I'm like I could obviously never have written that now you know I wrote it
[23:12]when I was in this place when I was like when I made 20s and and really going through something and
[23:20]it captures a moment in time that now even though I couldn't recreate that I appreciate it for
[23:28]what it is but isn't it kind of neat that as you get older I mean there's always new material
[23:33]and your audience is aging at the exact same pace as you maybe their life events aren't the
[23:39]same but it's like once you start with one life you know next thing you know you'll be writing
[23:43]about high school and the same yeah we'll still be coming along for the ride so you have to put
[23:49]the stuff of the day of daily life I don't know I feel like lean into the chaos like make the
[23:54]make the chapters like you know as disjointed or like what was I saying or the baby you know like
[24:01]the toddler just knock this out of my you know like yeah so it's a good thing I guess
[24:07]yeah you know I don't know I think like lean into it because we've all been there or not all of
[24:12]us but those who have had kids have been there and totally remember and relate so you know use
[24:19]I don't know absolutely and like you know I'm not writing fantasy or anything I'm very much
[24:25]writing a novel I've got writing what I know what I know is going right into the book so
[24:30]so do you have anything you can share about the book you're writing now aside from the difficulty
[24:35]you're writing it aside from the fact that it's aside for the exit very slow it gets terrible
[24:42]it could be terrible I don't know time will tell no one has read it yet I've only written like
[24:48]probably a third of it and my agent and editor actually both on maternity leave right now so
[24:55]neither of them even have like a clue of what it's about but so I can't share too much in case
[25:00]it changes but I will say that it's the darkest book I've ever written I don't really know why
[25:06]that's coming out right now but it is and it's about motherhood so weird because it's such a happy
[25:10]time in the world it's it's curious why you would ever write anything dark so curious yeah I wonder
[25:17]you know and it's December yeah yeah right I mean darkest time of year yeah you know I I feel badly
[25:25]because my editor and agent like both just had babies and I'm writing this book about dark motherhood
[25:29]and I feel like I'm gonna pair if I both think you're editing an agent you're gonna have to put
[25:35]like double locks in their doors yes doors and window locks and you know you never know what
[25:42]you're gonna do yes well I and I warn friends like I have I have a bunch of some friends that
[25:50]just had their first babies and I have to warn them about by baby I'm like just so you know
[25:57]I don't want this book to be triggering for you like there is an infant that this kidnapped
[26:02]but like no spoilers but it doesn't get as bad as you think so it's not it's not triggering
[26:08]it's good you know sometimes you need the jolt of feeling to get out of the daily grind
[26:14]I don't know I think that's good you you want to feel like that like oh my god like that terror that
[26:18]you feel yeah right and like that moment where you know I feel like it happens to me all the time
[26:25]where I'm like oh my god where is my child like I just put them somewhere I have a one year old
[26:32]she's not walking yet and I feel like I put her down and then I go do something and I come back
[26:37]and I'm like where is she and you just are like your mind goes to the worst I was so sure when I
[26:42]just hosted this birthday party when one of the parents came to pick out the kids I couldn't find
[26:46]her I was like oh my god I think I lost the kid oh my gosh what happened then what if she doesn't
[26:52]turn up where is she anyway she turned up yeah she turned up yeah she turned up anyway
[27:02]Carolek congratulations this was great probably another Hulu show and the making really awesome
[27:08]and thank you for coming on it's been a joy thank you so much city this was so much fun
[27:16]and I really appreciate you having me on pleasure all right good luck all right thank you
[27:23]thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to
[27:28]follow me on instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for
[27:33]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom
[27:38]every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan back texture sound for the sound editing
[27:43]and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and atrium music