Lottie Hazell, PIGLET
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Ladi Hazel is the author of Piglet, a novel.
[1:06]Ladi is a writer, contemporary literature scholar and board game designer, which we talked
[1:11]all about, living in Warwickshire, England.
[1:13]She holds a PhD in creative writing from Lao Burrow University, where she studied food
[1:18]writing in 21st century fiction.
[1:20]Piglet is her first novel.
[1:21]And watch out.
[1:22]You will be hungry after listening.
[1:23]Welcome, Ladi.
[1:24]Thanks so much for coming on mom's no time to read books.
[1:27]Just got Piglet.
[1:28]Congratulations.
[1:29]Thank you.
[1:30]Thank you very much for having me.
[1:31]I'm thrilled to be with you.
[1:32]And I'm just envying your library behind you just like, what a nice place to be in.
[1:37]Thank you.
[1:38]Yeah.
[1:39]This is my office.
[1:40]I know.
[1:41]Thank you.
[1:42]It's a little slice of heaven.
[1:43]Although, I don't know why.
[1:44]I always face this way, but anyway, OK, Piglet, it's everywhere.
[1:48]Are you so excited?
[1:49]I feel like it's in every round up and every magazine.
[1:52]I don't know.
[1:53]I feel like I'm seeing it constantly.
[1:54]Oh, I'm pleased.
[1:55]It's not just hard to know.
[1:56]I think when you're the author, if it is in as many places as you think it is or whether
[2:01]you're just very much in your own echo chamber.
[2:04]So I'm pleased that you're seeing it.
[2:05]I'm seeing it.
[2:06]Yes.
[2:07]Please, it's exciting.
[2:09]It feels quite thrilled, I think, because it's my first book.
[2:11]So it feels very odd, as if I'm observing it happening to someone else.
[2:15]But theoretically, I'm excited.
[2:18]I know what you mean.
[2:20]OK, well, tell listeners what is Piglet about?
[2:23]OK, so I describe Piglet as a story of appetite and aspiration.
[2:28]And it follows our titular Piglet in the weeks before her wedding.
[2:32]And our fiance confesses a terrible truth to her
[2:36]and a few days of all I do to get married.
[2:38]And the novel follows her as she grapples with this.
[2:41]And it's threat on the life that she's very carefully
[2:43]braided for her and for her and her fiance kit.
[2:48]And a lot of these kind of emotional tusslings
[2:50]are seen through the lens of food, which Piglet
[2:53]uses to curate her sense of self.
[2:55]Wow, that's really great.
[2:56]That's a really good explanation.
[2:59]Well done, well done.
[3:01]I feel like this book is one of the best food writing examples.
[3:07]Like everything is so like you can hear it.
[3:10]You can censor it.
[3:11]Maybe censor his word, hear, smell, touch.
[3:14]Like I feel like I go to the dinner party
[3:16]and I've just had the meal and I can feel and see myself.
[3:19]And I actually read this months ago,
[3:22]like when I first got it, because I wanted to dive right in.
[3:24]And I feel like the books that do the best job,
[3:27]I can just look at the cover.
[3:28]And I'm immediately like sitting back at that table
[3:31]or in that conversation.
[3:32]And I can like it drums, it comes right up again
[3:35]in my brain with all the details.
[3:36]And that's how I feel about this.
[3:38]And I think the cover is that the US cover
[3:41]has such a good job at that kind of claustrophobic awareness
[3:45]of the food as well.
[3:46]Like the burger feels very much in your face.
[3:48]There's not much room from the new brain
[3:49]when you look at it, which I adore.
[3:51]I think it kind of successfully conveys
[3:53]the postrophobic, delicious energy of the book.
[3:58]Yes, claustrophobic, delicious energy.
[4:01]Love it.
[4:02]Yeah.
[4:04]Okay, so where did this book come from?
[4:07]It's you have a PhD in creative writing.
[4:10]So it's not like such a shock.
[4:12]But when did you start writing this?
[4:14]Like why this book?
[4:15]Why these characters?
[4:16]Like what is the backstory?
[4:19]The very first draft of this book
[4:20]and another version of this book exists within my PhD.
[4:24]And I was looking specifically at specifically
[4:26]at contemporary what I call food-centric fiction.
[4:29]And I was interested in disclosure, surprise,
[4:33]for those that have read it,
[4:34]and how those two can fit together.
[4:36]So I think piglet is kind of a very natural creative response
[4:39]to those academic pre-oply patients.
[4:42]But the first scene that I wrote for piglet
[4:44]was the night after kit her fiance confesses to her
[4:47]and she's making them a carbonara.
[4:49]And I was fascinated by this character's commitment
[4:54]to domestic routine and to continuing
[4:57]to enact the rituals of a life,
[5:00]even though something had cracked between her
[5:04]and this person for the person.
[5:07]And that perseverance, I find fascinating,
[5:10]and there feels like there's a kernel of truth in that
[5:12]that I just wanted to explore further.
[5:14]So I didn't know what happened between them
[5:16]or who they were, but I wanted to know
[5:18]why are we still making dinner?
[5:19]Why are we eating it?
[5:21]The leftovers over the sink.
[5:22]Like what is what's happened to it?
[5:23]And so I felt compelled to carry on writing them.
[5:26]Eating is one of those things that you have to do,
[5:29]no matter what.
[5:30]You don't necessarily have to cook a delicious carbonara,
[5:32]but you don't get to say like,
[5:35]well, this makes me think of my ex.
[5:36]So I'm going to stop doing this.
[5:38]Yeah, I think it's continuing to cook for someone.
[5:45]When something's happened,
[5:46]when you have been, as piglet has been betrayed,
[5:49]but she continues to outlay.
[5:51]Yeah.
[5:52]And feed, which I find a really interesting,
[5:55]like what's the motivation there?
[5:56]Because at that point,
[5:58]surely there's a tenderness or a feeling of affection
[6:00]or a nurturing, there's something else going on there.
[6:03]Yes, very true.
[6:05]I don't have that problem.
[6:06]I don't really cook at all though.
[6:07]The idea that I would continue to do something nice
[6:10]for someone who has not been nice,
[6:12]especially in the Serena's, you know,
[6:14]hard to imagine.
[6:16]Let me just read like a paragraph.
[6:17]So people get a sense of how you write about food.
[6:20]Okay.
[6:20]So piglets having her, you know,
[6:23]housewarming thing and she's insisting she'll cook.
[6:25]And you say, she picked up salted butter,
[6:27]thick Greek yogurt and cream.
[6:29]The menu was not modest.
[6:30]Her basket was, this is when she's shopping.
[6:32]Her basket was already heavy with Charlotte potatoes,
[6:34]fresh herbs, and a duchy, duchy,
[6:37]duchy chicken.
[6:38]It was too hot for a roast chicken,
[6:39]but piglet had once heard Nagella say something
[6:41]about a house only being a home once a chicken
[6:43]was in the oven.
[6:44]And anyway, there would be salads,
[6:45]one chopped and scattered with feta and sumac,
[6:48]another leafy with soft herbs, herbs,
[6:51]new potatoes, boiled and dotted with a bright salsa verde,
[6:54]bread and two types of butter,
[6:56]comfy garlic and parmesan and black pepper.
[6:58]There would be cold wine and open windows,
[7:01]patio doors thrown wide.
[7:02]It would all look and taste exquisite.
[7:06]I mean, you just feel like you're there.
[7:08]You can smell the chicken in the oven
[7:10]and it's like, I don't know.
[7:12]It's all just so well done.
[7:14]Like, you should go into menu writing
[7:16]if you haven't, if you need a side hustle,
[7:18]you should just write menus for great restaurants
[7:20]or something.
[7:21]That sounds great, Joe.
[7:22]I would love that, Joe.
[7:24]It would be very good at it.
[7:25]I think it actually is a job.
[7:27]But anyway, how did you design board games as well?
[7:31]Like, tell me about your whole life.
[7:33]Like, what, just tell me, take me back.
[7:37]When did you decide to even get a PhD in creative writing?
[7:40]What is the gaming piece of your life and brain?
[7:42]And how does everything intersect?
[7:44]Yeah, funnily enough,
[7:45]I hadn't really considered game design and writing
[7:49]as intercepting parts of my world
[7:52]until I had been asked about it on the press for the book.
[7:56]In hindsight, that is so ridiculous
[7:58]because obviously they're connected there,
[8:00]different modes of storytelling.
[8:01]But for me, there are still quite different planes.
[8:03]Like, game design feels like a very head pursuit
[8:05]whereas writing feels much more of a heart domain.
[8:09]But they kind of came about a similar time.
[8:11]So I started my PhD in 2019,
[8:16]having gone freelance from the publishing industry in the UK
[8:20]and I had an opportunity to do the PhD
[8:21]so I was doing it at the same time as my publishing work.
[8:26]And then my husband and I decided that we'd like to try
[8:29]and combine our skills across various different arenas
[8:33]and try and make games together
[8:35]because it's what we always had enjoyed doing.
[8:37]And they're kind of both rooted at similar moments,
[8:41]which has been really interesting
[8:42]to stretch creatively in different ways
[8:45]and I appreciate different modes
[8:47]and being able to commit to projects
[8:49]in different creative ways, I suppose.
[8:53]So I suppose that's really the story
[8:56]before that I was working in an office in a publishing house.
[8:59]So I left that and then started spreading
[9:04]my creative tendrils, both of course.
[9:07]What area in publishing, what is your functional area?
[9:11]Nonfiction, I'm mostly for three.
[9:13]Oh, well there you go, perfect.
[9:15]And tell me more about the games,
[9:18]like which games would be know them.
[9:20]And I'm not sure if you'd know them, they're quite niche.
[9:22]So one of our most popular titles is a game called dog bark,
[9:26]which is about walking dogs.
[9:27]And we have another one called Forever Home,
[9:30]which is also about rescuing dog shower stogs.
[9:33]And we're working on a new one,
[9:34]which isn't about dogs because they're like,
[9:36]see, I think I'll go on your couch behind you.
[9:38]It's a very uncomfortable problem.
[9:40]It's very bad.
[9:41]Yeah, yeah, good canine company here.
[9:46]So those are the ones that we publish so far.
[9:47]But like books, it's a slow industry
[9:49]where it's making a thing.
[9:52]And then, well designing a thing,
[9:53]they're physically making it and then getting it to people.
[9:56]So my husband runs the entire logistics
[9:58]out of the business with bids.
[10:00]I can shipping, et cetera.
[10:02]Wow.
[10:03]So I'm really like how job, et cetera.
[10:04]I made a board game, or I made it,
[10:07]and I used to play it with my kids.
[10:08]It was called Time Out.
[10:10]And I had a whole shoots and ladders type of thing.
[10:13]Like, you know, you, I don't know.
[10:16]You yelled at your brother, time out, go back three spots.
[10:20]And then I would have another one.
[10:22]Like, you helped out with dinner, like move forward.
[10:25]And it was designed to show them what behaviors
[10:29]I wanted them to do, but I didn't.
[10:31]And it worked.
[10:33]It was really fun.
[10:35]And then we had this flood in our basement,
[10:36]and it got destroyed, and I forgot all about it.
[10:39]But I was like, I don't know what to do
[10:41]from this template I put on a piece of cardboard.
[10:44]How do you get it into stores?
[10:45]Like, it seemed completely impossible to me.
[10:47]So I just like put it aside.
[10:48]Yeah.
[10:49]I think it's kind of such a, I think it's
[10:51]a relatively young industry,
[10:53]compared to the niche hobby games.
[10:56]So I think there is so much of it
[10:58]that is still kind of not formalized
[11:01]in how those roots to market actually work.
[11:03]A lot of crowdfunding happens in hobby games.
[11:07]So rather than kind of traditional install,
[11:10]B2C, sorry, this is very dry.
[11:13]No, I find it, I mean, just do it.
[11:16]I'm pleased.
[11:17]Yeah, rather than being installed,
[11:19]there's a map of market that exists.
[11:21]And basically I'm Kickstarter and game found
[11:23]that kind of place for custom,
[11:25]a spoke or luxury book games.
[11:28]Interesting.
[11:29]So I wouldn't even have to go in a store.
[11:31]I could just have people interested.
[11:33]Interesting.
[11:34]Yeah.
[11:35]And then maybe I'll bring it back.
[11:36]Yeah, if you can remember.
[11:39]No, I'll be interested somewhere.
[11:41]Wow.
[11:42]Yeah, I thought it would be cool.
[11:42]I'm sorry to waste time with us.
[11:43]I thought it would be cool
[11:44]if people personalized their own cards,
[11:46]like what they wanted their kids to get time outs for
[11:48]versus what I wouldn't mind kids.
[11:49]Exactly.
[11:50]On crowdfunding, this would be exactly the kind of thing
[11:53]you might offer as an extra or a stretch goal.
[11:55]Yeah, this is perfect.
[11:57]Oh my gosh.
[11:58]Okay. All right.
[11:59]Well, maybe I'll email you.
[12:00]You actually get the link in my spare time, bring this back.
[12:04]Okay.
[12:05]So what do you want people to know about food,
[12:09]the end food writing and the role of food and literature
[12:12]that they might not know,
[12:13]but that you deeply know after all of your research?
[12:18]That's an interesting question.
[12:19]I suppose it might be better for me
[12:22]to let you let us know how I feel about food,
[12:24]which is that it is a language for me in and of itself.
[12:28]It feels like ever present under current
[12:31]that shapes character.
[12:32]And I don't think that I've learned much more about food,
[12:36]although saying that I did a lot of playfully say,
[12:39]I method wrote the book because I cooked all the recipes
[12:41]that piglet cooks in the book.
[12:42]And to try and get a sense of self of her
[12:46]and to look at her skin and her horsebans.
[12:49]But I think besides the practical nature
[12:52]of making caramel, I haven't learned more about food,
[12:57]but I have learned more as a writer
[12:58]that I believe strongly that without food character
[13:03]is so much less.
[13:05]I think that if I don't know what someone's had for breakfast
[13:07]or the character, I don't really know them.
[13:09]Or what they might pick up on a train journey as a snack.
[13:13]I think those details are so illuminating
[13:17]and important to me when I'm trying to work out
[13:19]to someone who's in what drives them.
[13:20]And I think that's probably true of life as well.
[13:22]I'm always interested in nosying around
[13:24]of what people are having for dinner or, you know,
[13:28]what their coffee order is.
[13:29]I am also really interested in that.
[13:31]When I was in like a third grade,
[13:33]I took the class list for like all the parents
[13:36]and I called everybody's house
[13:38]and asked all the kids what they had for dinner.
[13:40]Oh my goodness.
[13:41]Oh my gosh.
[13:42]Oh my gosh.
[13:43]Oh my gosh.
[13:44]Oh my gosh.
[13:45]Awesome.
[13:46]Right.
[13:47]We do it as well.
[13:48]This is excellent.
[13:49]But what are you having?
[13:51]We take a note.
[13:51]Was there a concern?
[13:53]What would you, what would you pick up on a train?
[13:56]What snacks would you order?
[13:58]I think it depends what mood I'm in.
[14:00]I think T, something with T
[14:01]and then I always want something with chocolate
[14:04]because to me train travel feels like holiday.
[14:07]It feels like there's, I feel like I'm on a jolly
[14:09]of some kind.
[14:11]And so I am never very mindful about whether I should have,
[14:19]you know, several chocolate bars, which is probably
[14:22]like that twitching with the sugar.
[14:25]I have a good idea.
[14:27]So I think it's always when I'm traveling
[14:29]and it's weird now I'm doing some press for the UK version.
[14:32]I have to keep it in mind myself.
[14:33]Like I'm not on holiday.
[14:34]Like stop eating chocolate.
[14:35]But that, you know, we have, you know,
[14:37]have a pan of chocolate on one hand,
[14:39]a cup of tea and the other.
[14:40]That sounds lovely to me.
[14:41]That sounds lovely to me too.
[14:44]That definitely sounds like a vacation.
[14:47]Yeah, isn't it?
[14:47]And it's like, I can't keep doing this every day.
[14:50]It's just a sustainable way to live.
[14:51]What about you?
[14:52]Are you a safe, rare, sweet person?
[14:54]I'm a sweet person, 100%.
[14:56]Yes.
[14:58]Actually, when I was first getting to know my husband,
[15:01]we were talking about, he asked me like,
[15:03]what's your favorite meal?
[15:04]Cause he's like, he's an amazing cook.
[15:06]You know, he went to culinary school
[15:07]and now he just cooks for basically me,
[15:09]which is really fabulous.
[15:10]But he asked me what my favorite meal is,
[15:13]which I guess was a question he used to ask a lot of people.
[15:15]And I said, it depends on the season.
[15:18]And he thought that was like the greatest answer ever.
[15:21]Nothing.
[15:22]But it does, right?
[15:23]Like what you want to tell your favorite meal is now
[15:26]versus, you know, the middle of summer is totally different.
[15:28]I also become types of much you eat it.
[15:30]Like I love over that cold amounts.
[15:34]Anything that could be cooked in a little cruise
[15:36]or a pot and in the oven.
[15:38]Amazing.
[15:39]If I serve that outside in the height of summer,
[15:43]no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[15:44]Roman so many levels.
[15:45]If yeah, context matters hugely, I think.
[15:48]Yeah, I agree.
[15:49]So what did you have?
[15:50]What have you had to eat today?
[15:53]No, I'm in a hotel today after doing a book club last night.
[15:58]And so I had a really lovely breakfast this morning.
[16:00]I had some like sourdough and avocado
[16:03]and I'm by the sea in the UK.
[16:05]So I had smoked salmon and I needed to ask them
[16:08]where they bought it because it was like,
[16:10]I don't know what the smoked salmon is like, or locks.
[16:13]Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
[16:14]But it was so smoky and delicious.
[16:17]The salmon was almost starting to go
[16:19]like a lovely caramelic salad.
[16:21]So it's not your regular smoked salmon,
[16:24]which was lovely this morning.
[16:25]And I had that with a cup of tea and a croissant after that
[16:29]because I feel this is my issue.
[16:31]If I'm away and I'm eating breakfast,
[16:33]I'm going to have maybe two or three breakfast
[16:35]rather than just, you know, the one.
[16:38]I haven't had lunch yet.
[16:39]So we'll see.
[16:40]You've got softer, okay thing.
[16:43]And you cooked all the meals in the book.
[16:47]Did you do it while you were writing?
[16:49]Like, did you, what was the timing?
[16:50]Did you write a scene and then go cook it
[16:52]or did you cook it and then put it in the book?
[16:54]Like, how did that work?
[16:55]I cooked it and then put it in the book.
[16:57]I was, I wanted to get a sense of reality
[17:00]of what those,
[17:01]and some of them I was already writing familiar
[17:03]with like the pastors in there
[17:04]and lots of the same food that she makes
[17:07]as some of my recipes that I like to go to myself.
[17:11]But the croquon bush was a new adventure to me.
[17:14]So I wanted to get a sense of hedge shaking
[17:17]is exactly right.
[17:18]You're doing right.
[17:19]I wanted to get a sense of realness and truth
[17:23]of what that was like
[17:25]because there's such integral moments for her
[17:27]and the book I felt like if I can borrow,
[17:31]if I can get a sense of reality,
[17:33]I just think that informs the writing.
[17:35]For me, it informs the writing for me, I think.
[17:38]So I didn't count.
[17:39]How many, how many meals were in the book?
[17:42]Do you know the number?
[17:43]Like, how many meals did you have to make?
[17:45]I don't know the number.
[17:46]I was happily oblivious and just among the food.
[17:52]But there are no,
[17:53]I was like, did I miss recipes?
[17:54]You didn't put recipes in, did you?
[17:56]No, no, I don't think in the amount of edition
[17:59]that is the back of the UK edition
[18:01]there is a recipe for snapper.
[18:03]I don't think it's in the amount of interesting.
[18:05]But I wasn't,
[18:06]I'm not, that was my publisher,
[18:08]it is the suggestion.
[18:10]It wouldn't, I don't know how I feel
[18:11]about recipes and books,
[18:12]but I quite like being nondescript and sparse.
[18:17]I didn't actually dictate a recipe.
[18:20]It feels like quite a big departure
[18:21]from my usual writing self-approves.
[18:24]Well, a good like social media thing
[18:26]you could add or something instead of in the book.
[18:29]Malcolm wise, ex young.
[18:30]Yes, marketing wise.
[18:31]Yeah, videos.
[18:33]I wonder if you could take someone,
[18:34]if you could do like a course,
[18:36]not like you need my ideas here,
[18:37]but if you could do a cooking class
[18:40]and you take people through like 10 recipes that you made
[18:43]or 10 meals, you could even do it online.
[18:46]Like, yeah, that would be so fun.
[18:48]Like, I would, you know,
[18:49]it's like a total book immersion situation.
[18:53]Yeah, very experiential.
[18:54]I think I have a message read with me.
[18:57]Method read with you.
[18:58]Yes, cooking book club, really cool.
[19:01]I love that.
[19:02]So what are you working on now?
[19:03]If anything, not to say you have to be.
[19:05]I find podcasts would be so generous
[19:08]where it's like, they ask the question,
[19:09]they're like, not they have to be,
[19:10]they don't be pressured, but also walk.
[19:13]I am working on something new,
[19:14]but I'm in the really nice early phase
[19:17]where it feels like a lot of percolation
[19:19]and trying to coach in inspiration.
[19:22]So I have a general idea of what I'd like to write
[19:25]and I'm starting to kind of snatch scenes out
[19:27]of the air and scribble them down on my notes app
[19:29]and getting an idea of characters.
[19:31]I love this phase because everything's possible
[19:34]and nothing has yet been written into reality
[19:37]that that will all that needs editing.
[19:39]So it's like a nice, a nice space to be.
[19:42]And is that how you do it?
[19:43]You capture scenes and then piece them out together
[19:46]and use notes.
[19:47]That's how I start with kind of scenes
[19:50]that have interested me or caught my interest
[19:52]or feel like I want to explore them further.
[19:54]But I'm quite a dull writer
[19:56]in that then I sit down and I plot and then I write.
[20:00]it turn up and then do a really terrible first draft,
[20:03]followed by a heavy edit in which hopefully
[20:05]the book reveals itself something that's less terrible.
[20:07]The first draft is so humbling, I find.
[20:10]So yes, in this phase, I feel kind of mysterious
[20:13]and ethereal in almost like a big magic sense.
[20:15]And then it becomes ever-separatiable very quickly.
[20:19]So you and your husband work together
[20:21]for the board game stuff.
[20:24]Is he involved in your writing at all?
[20:25]Or is he an early reader?
[20:27]Or is this something you like to keep close
[20:29]to the vest?
[20:30]He's not involved, and that is because I am a real
[20:34]hermit when it comes to writing.
[20:35]I don't really like to talk about ideas.
[20:38]When it, I'm not, until it gets to the point
[20:40]of sharing a manuscript, I'm not a very good collaborator.
[20:43]I like to internalize a lot and think it through quietly.
[20:48]He's ever so supportive, and he asks,
[20:50]but nearly always the questions that have yet to with,
[20:53]I know you're not going to tell me, but how's it going?
[20:55]No, I mean, but yeah.
[20:58]At least you know he's interested.
[21:00]So he gets points.
[21:01]Yes, I mean, that's you know.
[21:04]Do you have advice for aspiring authors?
[21:06]Read, I think read as much as you can.
[21:09]And I think underlying and make note of sentences
[21:13]or phrases or words that have inspired you or have moved you,
[21:17]I feel like, especially when I'm trying to make something new,
[21:20]I love reading other people's work.
[21:21]I love watching film and television and absorbing stories.
[21:25]I think that that's such a underrated way to work
[21:29]as a writer to research and be in the world
[21:32]that you're trying to be in.
[21:35]So often I was talking to another writer
[21:37]and they were talking about how they felt
[21:38]like reading was a treat.
[21:40]And it's such an odd thing to say is everything.
[21:44]It's the work and what a nice bit of work to do.
[21:47]So I think you're reading, definitely.
[21:49]Who are, do you have some go-to authors
[21:50]that you read everything they write?
[21:52]Or is there a genre you particularly love?
[21:55]I don't really have go-to authors,
[21:56]but I feel like I might be developing them,
[21:59]doing because I just read and adored
[22:02]even copperhead by Barbara Kingsova.
[22:05]And I just felt like you know the joy
[22:07]when you haven't read someone's catalog.
[22:09]And it's like, oh my God, there's more
[22:11]of these incredibly natural that I can now explore.
[22:15]And the same with our Patrick Tollec was the first.
[22:17]No, that's a lie.
[22:18]So I'm like the second that Patrick I'd read.
[22:21]And again, I was just like, oh my God,
[22:22]there are so many more books that you've written.
[22:24]And now I just get to dive into the rest.
[22:27]I think the genre probably is contemporary
[22:31]focused on relationships, not necessarily domestic.
[22:35]I'm interested in the dynamics between people being
[22:39]the thing that repels the plot beyond that.
[22:42]Let me think more exciting to keep me interested
[22:44]and that's what excites me.
[22:46]What's going on between people?
[22:47]I love that.
[22:48]You should read Sue Miller.
[22:49]Do you read any of her stuff?
[22:50]I feel like she's, that's...
[22:51]No, I'm relying to have another recommendation.
[22:54]Yeah, I don't know, like Sue Miller monogamy.
[22:56]I feel like, I don't know.
[22:57]It's all about that relationship.
[23:00]And I don't know.
[23:02]That's like basically all you need in that book.
[23:04]It's about her feeling that her husband, anyways.
[23:07]Okay, amazing.
[23:08]Well, Lottie, thank you so much.
[23:10]Thanks for coming on.
[23:11]Congrats on your book.
[23:12]Are you doing a US tour or only UK?
[23:15]Only UK at the moment.
[23:16]So I'll be in the US for work for the board game.
[23:19]So I'm hoping to visit some book shopping
[23:21]to say hi to some Indies.
[23:23]Also, maybe there, but just be careful now.
[23:25]But, yeah, happy to be doing podcast.
[23:28]So thank you so much for having me.
[23:30]It's my pleasure.
[23:31]Lovely to meet you.
[23:33]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[23:36]to Read Books.
[23:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[23:40]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[23:42]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[23:45]and sign up for my virtual book club
[23:46]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[23:49]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[23:51]for the Sound Editing.
[23:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:54]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.