Admiral James Stavridis and Elliot Ackerman, 2054
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and I am the host of this podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders. Admiral James Stavritus and Elliot
[0:34]Ackerman are co-authors of 2054, a novel. Elliot Ackerman is the author of the novel's
[0:40]Halcyon, Red Dress and Black and White, Waiting for Eden. And we talked about both of those books
[0:46]on my podcast the last time he was on, Dark at the Crossing and Green on Blue, and the memoirs,
[0:51]The Fifth Act, and Places and Names. His books have been nominated for numerous awards that
[0:56]include the National Book Award, the Andrew Carnegie Medal, and Fiction and Nonfiction,
[1:00]and the Dayton Literary Peace Prize. He is a contributing writer at the Atlantic and a marine
[1:05]veteran having served five tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, where he received the silver star,
[1:10]the bronze star for valor, and the purple heart. I can't believe next to his purple heart
[1:15]mention in his bio. He doesn't also mention that he was a contributor to Momstone Have Time to
[1:20]a Quarantine Anthology, and yet he was. Admiral James Stavritus, USN, retired, spent more than 30 years
[1:27]in the US Navy, rising to the rank of four star Admiral. He was Supreme Allied Commander at NATO,
[1:32]and previously commanded US Southern Command overseeing military operations through Latin America.
[1:38]At sea, he commanded a Navy destroyer, a destroyer squadron, and an aircraft carrier battle group
[1:43]in combat. He holds a PhD from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University,
[1:48]where he recently served five years as dean. He received 50 medals in the course of his
[1:53]military career, including 28 from foreign nations. He has published 12 other books,
[1:58]and has chief international analysts for NBC News and a Bloomberg opinion weekly columnist.
[2:03]He is currently partner and vice chair, Global Affairs of the Carlisle Group,
[2:07]and the chair of the board of the Rockefeller Foundation. He was a little late joining the
[2:10]Zoom because he was live on NBC, but I forgave him. Welcome to Elliott and Admiral James Stavritus,
[2:18]thank you both for coming. I already read your introduction, so we can just jump right in.
[2:23]Congratulations, 2054. So amazing. This kept me up. All the fast paced shirt. I was like,
[2:32]I was talking to my kids about it. They're like, I was like, I barely gotten into it. And they're like,
[2:35]but you're like on page 50. And I was like, I know, but it still like feels like the beginning,
[2:39]and I have so much work. Anyway, congratulations. Tell listeners what this book is about,
[2:43]and how it follows up your previous book and all the rest.
[2:46]Well, I'll start with kind of how it follows up. And then Elliott is the master storyteller
[2:51]who can give a little pressie of the novel itself. The way it came about, Zibi, was we started
[2:57]with a previous book, 2034, which is about a war with China set in the year 2034.
[3:03]And then as we looked at the way the century is unspooling, we saw that coming challenges
[3:10]include artificial intelligence and the potential of civil conflict in America.
[3:15]And you don't, by the way, have to have read 2034 to pick up 2054. But it kind of carries
[3:22]on with some of the characters and takes us to mid century the year 2054. And it's intended,
[3:30]and I'll close with this and pitch it to Elliott, but it's intended as a cautionary tale,
[3:35]not as predictive fiction, but as a warning bell, read this, think about it. We have to control
[3:43]artificial intelligence and we must avoid civil conflict in America. That's the mission of the
[3:50]book, Elliott. In terms of this story, it really opens up by projecting out trends that we're
[3:57]already seeing in American life. So it is told in the 2034 universe and the opening of that
[4:03]universe is a war between the US and China. So now we're 20 years out from that war. And America
[4:10]is led by its first independent president who gets himself elected to office because, and this
[4:17]is a trend that has already cranked today, more and more Americans aren't identifying as Republicans
[4:22]and Democrats. And the parties are just bleeding membership. And so as they bleed membership, it
[4:26]creates this opportunity for him to run as an independent. And the wake of this war, he's a pretty
[4:32]effective president. But as is often the case, people don't like to let go of power. And this
[4:38]name is President Angel Castro. And he often quips that if, you know, this country could
[4:43]elect a president with the middle name Hussein, he can certainly elect a president with the last
[4:46]name Castro. But he doesn't want to leave Washington. And there's much controversy about the fact
[4:52]that he's an effective president, but should he be allowed to stay in office and is the United
[4:58]States starting to look like a one party country. And at that moment, Castro is giving a speech
[5:04]and he suspiciously kills over dead. And this is in the first, you know, 50 pages of the book.
[5:10]And the circumstances around his death are very, very mysterious. And what occurs
[5:14]are a number of competing narratives as to how he died, who may have killed him or what
[5:22]might have killed him. And it's the what that gets into really the second theme of the novel.
[5:26]In addition to being a book that is about civil conflict in the United States, it's also a book
[5:31]about artificial intelligence and how artificial intelligence not only affects this
[5:36]technologically, but affects our consciousness. And it builds to this idea of what many people
[5:41]have heard about, which is called the Singularity. And our book, the Singularity is really the
[5:46]moment where we start to see biological evolution merging with technological evolution. And this
[5:54]idea that in the future, perhaps really the new microchips will be molecules will begin altering
[5:59]ourselves. So that's sort of the entry point of the book. And as Jim mentioned, you see, you know,
[6:05]some of the characters have come forward many of the themes in 2054 there. And I think it's a
[6:08]pretty fun read and it's designed to be a, you know, a thriller and a page turner. Well, you take us
[6:13]inside the autopsy room where we see the surprise on the face of the doctors holding up the
[6:19]president's heart and saying like this cannot be the same heart that he had just, you know, performed
[6:24]test on. And what on earth could have could have made this collection of cells. And that takes
[6:30]you down this whole sort of rabbit hole. In fact, it was quite graphic. Like the screaming down
[6:36]the thing, you opening up the chest. Okay. Well, I have to tell you neither Elliot and I are doctors,
[6:43]but I have two son-in-laws who are physicians who help me with that particular scene and helped us
[6:51]build that realism. And it's, it's, I think quite good. It's a, it grabs the reader. Let's put it
[6:57]in the hole. Well, tell them they did a really good job on the details there. Definitely catches your
[7:04]attention. But the idea that our bodies can be infiltrated in some way, even with your heads up,
[7:10]heads up, right? That's what it's called. The implantable chips that everybody can wear,
[7:15]which a reminiscent of that game, you know, the game heads up, the kids play boom.
[7:19]Yeah. That's sort of, I had that. But anyway, the advantages and disadvantages of
[7:26]embeddable technology, if you will, talk a little bit about that. And where you see it going and
[7:32]how can we prevent some of these scary things from happening? I'll start by saying it is scary in
[7:38]the point of the book. A major point is to be prepared for that. But we ought to immediately acknowledge
[7:45]and you'll find this in the book as well that it could be and probably will be an enormous force for
[7:52]good as well. So it's like the advent of electricity or the printing press. These big muscle movements
[8:02]in terms of technologies come with both dangers. You can picture what people thought when the first
[8:09]printing press arrived and suddenly knowledge could go everywhere, where house electricity
[8:15]going to be used in war to power missiles and aircraft. So there are always going to be good and
[8:23]dangerous things about any technology. And I think we pretty much explore both sides of it in the
[8:30]novel. And I think that's an important component to it. I mean, I was just adding one of the things
[8:36]the novel addresses, too, is how we start to think about technology differently in the future.
[8:43]And we've listened, we've all just come off a moment where just about every American injected
[8:48]themselves with a piece of technology because it was a vaccine that was artificially created.
[8:54]And so this is idea. I think when we think of technology now, you know, we think of ease and it's
[8:58]something that's made out of metal or glass, but increasing that technology will start to look
[9:03]differently. I mean, there's a moment in the book where one of the characters sort of is
[9:06]musing on this idea and he asks himself, you know, will robots inherit the earth? And the
[9:12]conclusion he comes to is yes, but they will be our children. And this will be a process by which
[9:17]again, the technological and the biological start merging and the barrier between the two
[9:24]becomes increasingly for us. And, you know, and we see them in the book, the way the president
[9:29]is assassinated isn't with a bullet or a knife. It's with a piece of biological technology.
[9:34]Yeah, I'll just add to my favorite authors are Ian McEwen, both British by the way, Ian McEwen
[9:41]and Ishigura, Nobel Lauree at the latter, his latest book, Clara and the Sun, kind of interrogate
[9:48]some of these issues. And Ian McEwen's book is very much in this vein, a book machines like us
[9:56]to picking up Elliot's point of the biologic
[10:00]in the technological drawing closer and closer.
[10:02]Oh, that's pretty frightening. I think, I mean, I mean, just the idea of your own kids or
[10:07]grandkids becoming something very other and not understandable and not even have the same cut
[10:14]for the same cloth of you out. I mean, then the whole society and the effects of that, it's
[10:18]indeed. However, they could then live indefinitely. You know, the dream of mankind forever has been
[10:26]immortality. And that comes with its pros and its cons as well. So I think these are
[10:32]the big issues of our time. And it was very fun to explore them in fiction.
[10:36]How did the two of you write this together? How did you sit and brainstorm? Like, what
[10:40]if what would the world be like? And then you went to the writing, how did it happen?
[10:44]Sure. Well, I mean, we've sort of done, and again, this is part of a series. And the last
[10:48]in the series that will come up will be 2084, which I deal with climate, which we are already
[10:54]in the process of writing. But, you know, we first sort of collaborating on these projects. We
[10:59]had a pre-existing friendship and our mutual book editors suggested that the two of us work
[11:04]with one another. And so we sat down and said, okay, well, how's this going to work? And let's
[11:08]let's try to write a first chapter together and see how that goes. And that was a big success.
[11:12]And we sort of done every book the same way. We write them chapter by chapter. We sit down,
[11:16]we outline what we think is going to happen. We do that sort of with a great deal of detail.
[11:22]Typically, I'm the one once we kind of feel like we've got it all planned out. I'll go take a
[11:25]first crack at it. And then I'll hand my mind to Jim, he'll toy with it. We'll kind of bat it back
[11:31]and forth until we both think it's in pretty good shape. And then we go to the next chapter. And so
[11:35]we've been doing that for a while. And now it seems to work for us. We also have a absolutely
[11:39]terrific editor who is very positive when he feels strongly that we're on the right track.
[11:46]But he is very quick to say, no, you guys have really run off the rails here. Here's what I think
[11:53]you should do. And then we'll kind of get back and forth and we'll be the one saying, hey, this is
[11:57]the best damn novel ever. And he'll be saying, well, you know, maybe we could adjust. So I think
[12:04]there's a third person in this relationship. Scott Moyers is his name at Penguin Press Random House.
[12:11]He's a brilliant, brilliant editor. Well, when you were thinking about the party system, which I
[12:17]also found interesting and how there are the Democrat Republicans or the Republican Democrats and
[12:21]how there's like the truth group truth truth truth truth truth truth is and these new parties
[12:27]how did you come up with them and do you see this happening like I know you were just saying
[12:32]bleeding into another and the rise of the independence but could there be this win would that happen
[12:37]and how soon and just where do you see all of this really going I'll start on that one just by saying
[12:43]you know people act like somewhere in the constitution it says there shall be two political parties
[12:49]republicans and democrats that's not in the constitution we didn't start with either republicans
[12:55]or democrats we started with wigs nationalist republican democrats the star party nationalist
[13:03]progressives the bull moose party we've had a lot of political parties in this country
[13:09]and I think tell it's point earlier people are increasingly dissatisfied with the way the
[13:14]extremes in both of those parties have co-opted them and there's a huge branch of us who are
[13:20]kind of in the middle who are thinking hmm I have two daughters in their thirties they're both
[13:26]married as I mentioned the physicians all four of them look right they look left and they say
[13:32]where's my party so yeah I think this could happen fairly soon but by 2054 I'll be surprised
[13:40]if it hasn't happened oh maybe I'll start the book party I think you're already good Zibi
[13:49]people can connect over that right yeah do you wake up and feel just hopeless and depressed looking
[13:58]at the news ever I mean how do you get through it feels like sometimes that things feel very hopeless
[14:05]in a way right that how are we ever going to unite as a country again and like where is all of
[14:11]that patriotism and just I feel like you know it's it's not the most optimistic looking time and
[14:18]this election and blah blah blah so I don't know how do you two feel about it I agree and I mean
[14:23]listen I can certainly sympathize with feeling that way you know I think as much as these books are
[14:27]obviously forward looking you know one of the things that was fun about 2054 is this book you know
[14:33]kind of becomes more science fiction than our previous book because it has to be but you
[14:37]there also all these books have been kind of deeply rooted in history and so much as then
[14:41]what would then when we think about you know the challenges laid out in this book I mean political
[14:46]assassination division between the parties Civil War potentially there are all places where we've
[14:52]been before and there are all points in our own history where we've managed to innovate our way
[14:59]out of them and and come together so yes I certainly feel pessimistic and frustrated
[15:05]when I watch the news by the way I find a great tonic to that is not watching too much cable
[15:09]particularly cable news but all that being said I think when you pause and you reflect on the
[15:15]trajectory of our country over many many years you actually see that we've done pretty well and I
[15:18]think as Americans oftentimes particularly we have a tendency to think of ourselves as a young
[15:23]people and we are as a civilization we are a young civilization from just like the Chinese don't
[15:28]even consider a society of civilization till it's 300 years old so we're not even there yet in
[15:32]terms of the Chinese but what we are is actually a very form a very old form government I mean they're
[15:38]very few democracies you can point out in the world that have existed around 250 years not trans
[15:44]not Germany you know maybe the Brits and so that like the enduring system of our government is what
[15:50]makes me optimistic but yeah I mean these are certainly challenging times and I think it's going
[15:54]to be a challenging year I think I see the bumper sticker for the book party the book party
[16:01]don't watch cable news read a book and I'm optimistic by nature most Greek Americans are it's
[16:09]kind of baked into our culture and you know like Ellie and I both seen our share of combat over
[16:16]the years we've seen really bad things yeah we've got problems in this country but I'm
[16:21]cautiously optimistic just as Elliot said a moment ago we'll work our way through these things
[16:26]and there'll be speed bumps and challenges and again our mission with this book is to
[16:31]foreshadow what some of those speed bumps could be because if you see them coming you can
[16:37]prepare for them and reverse engineer it and end up in a far better place what's the one thing
[16:42]we should really be focused on right now as a society I think it's the divisions in our country
[16:48]so we can talk about all the challenges in the Middle East we can talk about Russia you
[16:52]crane war us china artificial intelligence cyber security is another pandemic coming my view we can
[16:59]handle all those things what I worry about the most are these divisions in the country we have
[17:05]got to find leaders who are willing to bring us together that's how we find a path out of this dark
[17:11]forest we've wandered into so how far into 2084 are you how's that going well we're we're
[17:18]we're sure we're pretty far yeah we're just about at the first draft marks you know and that's
[17:24]a book that again it's it's going to be the first book was very much naval in nature because
[17:29]we're both two naval officers but you know it's a book that deals with climate what the world
[17:35]looks like if you take some of the challenges we're facing today in climate and project them outwards
[17:39]and the idea of geopolitics when certain nations are demanding climate reparations and their
[17:46]countries become entirely inhabitable and how how that will affect migratory patterns international
[17:51]politics and domestic politics and that also in terms of the technology take some of the the strands
[17:59]that you see in 2054 and keeps projecting them out there is also like our other books has a
[18:05]heavy technological component to it so we're pretty far along yeah I'll just add this is partly why
[18:12]we wanted to write these as novels well you could certainly write a nonfiction book about the
[18:19]dangers of climate and the potential outcomes where you can write a nonfiction book about a war with
[18:25]China or artificial intelligence its dangers and its benefits but with fiction you get to put
[18:32]characters into it and I think readers are pulled through books ultimately by characters even
[18:38]nonfiction you tend to be pulled through by whoever the nonfiction cast it's look at the movie
[18:46]Oppenheimer which is brilliant it's based on a terrific book by Ty Bird American Prometheus it's
[18:52]it reads like a novel Walter Isaacson's biographies read like novels you're pulled by characters
[18:59]and so in all three of these books it's certainly the technology but it's also the
[19:04]I think very interesting vulnerable characters who carry this story suffer its consequences
[19:12]solve its problems that's what makes writing fiction so much fun and we've both written both
[19:18]nonfiction and fiction and they're both great forms but for our purposes in this trilogy fiction
[19:25]really was a big canvas that we could splash a lot of paint on is the trilogy going to have a
[19:30]home on the screen we're looking for one I think they make some fun of these I think all three of
[19:38]them could be incredibly good films and we we encountered some interest on 2034 that's still kind
[19:46]of bubbling and I think 54 will be an easier sell for a number of different reasons um and so
[19:55]I'm kind of hopeful we could see 2054 in particular
[20:00]catch some interest out in Hollywood.
[20:02]Well, it definitely reads like a movie.
[20:04]You feel like you're seeing the whole thing.
[20:06]And that's such a wonderful type of writing where it's so immersive
[20:10]that you feel like you've already watched it.
[20:11]Like you can see the whole thing.
[20:13]Yeah.
[20:13]Anyway, well, congratulations to both of you.
[20:16]Can't wait for the next one.
[20:18]And wow, modern day trilogy of, this is like how smart men
[20:23]deal with anxiety.
[20:24]It's like, it's just, you know, the other thing we do is we also
[20:27]like the idea of service dogs.
[20:29]And I see that your, uh, your puppy just wondered in there.
[20:33]Is that a chocolate lab back there?
[20:35]It's a black lab.
[20:37]And what is, uh, what is his or her name?
[20:39]Her name is Nia.
[20:40]Not yet.
[20:41]Okay.
[20:42]So she was my late mother-in-law's dog.
[20:43]So we adopted her a couple of years ago.
[20:46]We have a beautiful Basset Hound named Penelope.
[20:50]And there's a literary reason for her name, Penelope.
[20:54]She's named after the wife of Ulysses, who waited patiently for her
[20:59]sailor to come home from the sea in the Odyssey.
[21:03]So Penelope is my, my faithful, uh, waited for me the whole way.
[21:08]Just like my beautiful wife, Laura.
[21:10]Anyway, thanks for taking time to be with us today.
[21:12]It was really fun.
[21:13]Oh, thanks for coming on.
[21:14]Appreciate it.
[21:15]I mean, okay.
[21:16]All right, bye bye.
[21:19]Thanks for listening to mom.
[21:20]Don't have time to read books.
[21:22]If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social
[21:25]at sippy Owens and at sippy readers.