Savannah Guthrie, MOSTLY WHAT GOD DOES: Reflections on Seeking and Finding His Love Everywhere
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at zippymedia.com or follow
[0:24]me on social at zippyowans or join the community at zippyreaders.
[0:32]Savannah Gun 3 is the author of Mostly What God Does, Reflections on Seeking and Finding His Love
[0:37]Everywhere. Savannah Gun 3 is the co-anchor of NBC News' Today, NBC News' Chief Legal Correspondent,
[0:45]and a primary anchor for the network's election coverage. She was named co-host of today
[0:49]in 2012. Savannah is a graduate of Georgetown Law and a New York Times best-selling author
[0:55]for her book, Princess's Wear Pants, and the sequel, Princess's Save the World.
[1:00]She is the executive producer of the Netflix show Princess Power, based on the book series.
[1:05]Savannah is married to communications consultant, Mike Feldman, and the couple has a daughter,
[1:09]Vail, and a son, Charlie. Welcome, Savannah. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have
[1:13]Time to Read Books to discuss. Mostly What God Does, Reflections on Seeking and Finding His Love
[1:19]Everywhere. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you, Zippy. I love the name of your podcast.
[1:24]I feel like you see me. I don't have time to read. I don't know where I find the right.
[1:30]As seriously, maybe that should be the question of the hour, but first, tell listeners what
[1:36]your book is about and what inspired you to write it. So my book is a book about faith,
[1:42]and it's a series of essays. They're just really short little reflections about
[1:48]different aspects of faith. But it's not a memoir I come right out and say,
[1:53]this is not a memoir. This is not my life story. But at the same time, it's really personal,
[1:59]because if you're going to write about faith and what you believe and what you've learned
[2:02]along the way, you end up telling a lot of your personal stories. And so I do. And usually,
[2:08]they're not stories of my great triumphs. They're more often stories of sadness and disappointment
[2:14]and setbacks and questioning and doubt and all of those things. So I tried to write not from a
[2:20]place that certainly any special knowledge or expertise. I come right out and say at the beginning,
[2:26]I'm not a theologian or a biblical scholar. And I'm not holding my life up as any kind of
[2:31]example that anyone should follow, but just a person who loves God and who figured out that God
[2:38]loves me and every human heart and figuring that out and how I figured that out has changed
[2:44]everything for me. Well, it's surprising that you didn't go to Divinity School or anything
[2:48]like that because you're command of the Bible and the Psalms. And all you say, I mean, it's
[2:53]pretty good. I mean, I feel like I did not go, okay, it's close attention in Hebrew school. I must
[2:58]say so. Well, over the years, I've been interested and so I've studied that I've been writing
[3:04]down. So it's sort of like 20 years of thinking and reflecting. But I was so nervous when I wrote
[3:10]the book because, you know, just to put that out there, you're like, oh my gosh, people who actually
[3:15]know could read this. And so I was so happy because my publishers said, don't worry, we have a
[3:21]theologian that can will read the entire book and make sure like you're not making up stuff. So
[3:28]that's a big relief for me. Yeah. Thank God for fact checkers. Yes. What I really want to know is
[3:35]more about your shoplifting. Oh, I told you, I told you these lessons get learned not on your
[3:44]right shining moments, but in your in your embarrassing ones. Yes, I confess that in junior high,
[3:50]I had a little shoplifting phase as a teenager. And I use it as an example of, you know, those times
[3:57]when you are overwhelmed with guilt, but how good it feels to come clean and be forgiven. And so
[4:04]I remembered that from from being 13 years old and and having as I've now learned, maybe 13
[4:11]year olds go through this exact phase, you know, where you go to the drugstore and take to tax
[4:14]or lip smackers or mascara or whatever. But I lived with that guilt for the good part of a summer
[4:19]and then finally confessed to my mother one day who was fully disgusted with me as she should have
[4:25]been. But, you know, that was an obvious moment where you do something wrong. It's horrifying,
[4:32]you're flooded with guilt, but then having come clean told the truth to yourself. And in my case,
[4:38]to my mom's, my father, you know, then I felt released. And so I kind of used that as a jumping
[4:43]off point to talk about, you know, we all often carry some guilt or shame or something that we
[4:50]we know we've somehow fallen short of love in our lives and that there's such a singular relief
[4:55]and telling the truth to yourself and telling the truth to God and finding out that you're forgiven
[4:59]and loved anyway. It's amazing. I feel like I was less forgiven than you when I stole some
[5:04]sunkissed from the bathroom. I don't know my mom. I remember this. So I feel like everyone remembers
[5:10]the story when they stole the first time or if they tried and what happened. And I was so mortified
[5:15]because she I like took the sunkissed and put it in the car and she like made me get up out of the
[5:21]car and back in there and apologizing to the guy. And I was so humiliated that I never did it again.
[5:26]So there you go. Well, it's been that it stuck with you, but see, you got to caught immediately
[5:31]where mine was it. I had a short chop lifting career. So she couldn't it wasn't really possible
[5:37]to say go back to the store and return everything. You know, so it was it was but I believe
[5:42]me I she was not pleased. I think that was like six. This is like really bad. But anyway,
[5:48]I know if I feel like there are so many stories you're right that if I were a manager of a drug
[5:52]store, I feel like I would just keep my eyes trained on 13 year olds non stuff, you know, 13 to
[5:58]16 times like forget it wrong suspect princess like yeah, that's a better way to say it. You jump
[6:03]around in the book from, you know, deeply emotional passages to more, you know, fun and then telling
[6:10]us about, you know, having kids and then like the devastating, you know, pregnancy loss of a good friend,
[6:16]there's one passage that I thought was really great because you opened up the most. I know you
[6:21]started by saying it's not a memoir, but I felt like not to be creepy. I just like wanted to know
[6:25]more and more about you, you know, like tell me I'm the you and all of the stuff. So can I just read
[6:31]this paragraph? Is that okay? Of course. Of course. You said like so many people I struggle with dark
[6:36]and foreboding thoughts. I don't know if mine has a clinical name anxiety perhaps. No matter.
[6:41]I don't need to name it. I know it by heart. I would know it anywhere that heavy feeling of dread,
[6:45]worry, and guilt gripping my heart like advice. The tightening, gnawing, feeling of discomfort,
[6:51]it is a dis-ease if not an actual disease, a persistent, occasionally relentless sense of impending
[6:57]doom. It's defining feature is it's mystery. Why do I feel like that? Why do I feel this way? Often I
[7:03]can't even put my finger on it. I rack my brain for the source, scanning my memory movements and
[7:08]interactions looking for the real reason I might feel so unsettled. Did I do something wrong?
[7:13]Tell me about this feeling. How I feel in my psyche. You're going to go, so run screaming. It's
[7:22]not funny because when I wrote it, you know, I asked my editor at some point. I'm like, am I coming
[7:27]across like a basket case? I'm actually quite chipper. But I think a lot of us struggle with
[7:36]versions of these kinds of dark thoughts. You know, mine might kind of head toward guilt and shame
[7:42]and others might go through anger, frustration, or despair. But you know that kind of feeling like,
[7:48]why do I have this heaviness about me? And I think that was an instructor that I wrote
[7:53]called Turn Your Eyes. It's about how in those moments, especially today we're so lucky in
[8:00]our modern culture. We have so many different wellness techniques, meditation, journaling. We
[8:06]so much more access to therapy and that kind of thing. But I'm saying beyond all those things.
[8:11]And in addition to sometimes what we really need is a perspective. The perspective that is far
[8:18]beyond ourselves and for me, that perspective is faith and looking up and out of my circumstances
[8:26]and realizing that I'm not in charge. Because when you worry like that and when you have that
[8:32]anxiety or you're exacting this terrible judgment on yourself, of course, what you're actually
[8:38]doing, the subtext is, is that you're in charge. That you are kind of the God of your life. And
[8:44]actually, it's quite a relief, especially if you believe in the God that I believe in, that it
[8:49]got of love and compassion, who has been human and connects with every human heart, to lift your
[8:55]perspective and remember that that's who's actually in control. It's a great relief and a great
[9:01]comfort. And when I'm feeling that way, that sense of foreboding, this is something I try to do
[9:08]look up, look out, and turn my eyes upward and heavenward. And I write about the first day I
[9:14]anchored the today's show as the main anchor and how terrified it was. And I came in at a moment of
[9:20]controversy for the show. I mean, people were not clamoring for Savannah Guthrie to host the show.
[9:26]You know, I kind of got thrown in there and I was pretty sure I was a temporary
[9:30]transitional solution that was going to get thrown by the wayside. I was so scared.
[9:36]Probably the morning I was to begin and knew the eyes of the world were on me,
[9:41]at least my news world. And I came down with the blind being my grade. And the kind of my grades
[9:47]I have, you know, I can't see. My vision is cut out. You know, words disappear. And I laid down 20
[9:55]minutes before air on the floor of this dressing room. And I
[10:00]just like I prayed.
[10:01]And this verse came to me and the verse was,
[10:04]I had memorized it years and years before,
[10:07]but suddenly it popped into my head
[10:08]seemingly out of nowhere.
[10:10]I looked to the hills,
[10:12]where does my help come from?
[10:13]It comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth.
[10:16]And I knew in that moment
[10:18]that the call was to look up and out
[10:21]and know that help was on the way
[10:22]and the help wasn't for me to do it myself
[10:26]because here I had run right into my own
[10:28]shortcomings and fears and weaknesses
[10:30]and physical frailty and every kind of frailty,
[10:33]but to look up and out and look on the horizon
[10:36]and who's on the way?
[10:38]Who is coming up with the cavalry of rescue?
[10:41]Got himself, the maker of heaven and earth.
[10:44]And that's how I understood that verse in that moment.
[10:47]And the fact that it came back to me in that moment
[10:50]was a great comfort because if nothing else,
[10:53]I felt and I knew in my heart that thought was there
[10:56]and that I wasn't alone.
[10:58]And the message I took was about to do this far
[11:01]and not about to admit that band in you now.
[11:04]And somehow I rolled out of that dressing room
[11:09]and did the show.
[11:10]And it's not like, oh, and then my brain disappeared.
[11:13]It just was able to go on.
[11:15]And for me, that's just an example
[11:18]of how getting a different perspective
[11:19]when we're deep in our worries, our concerns,
[11:22]or our James spiral or our anxiety or our anger
[11:26]or whatever we go through as humans,
[11:29]that perspective to me has been so valuable.
[11:32]And that's something that I cannot self,
[11:34]it's not self-generated.
[11:36]We modern people are so self-reliant
[11:38]and that's wonderful.
[11:40]But faith for me brings something that I cannot bring
[11:42]and I'm so grateful for that.
[11:44]It's amazing.
[11:45]You're gonna put the whole anti-anxiety medication field
[11:49]like out of business.
[11:51]Well, I don't know because I say guys in the book,
[11:55]I'm not, I say we can avail ourselves
[11:57]of all of these different ways of dealing with anxiety.
[12:02]And I'm not saying that anxiety is a spiritual problem
[12:05]because for some of us,
[12:06]and I probably would put myself in this category,
[12:09]it's a chemical problem too.
[12:11]You know, and it's emotional problem
[12:12]and we need the therapy and we might need it.
[12:15]Those are something, but above all things,
[12:18]I think we also need faith
[12:21]or we can benefit greatly from it.
[12:23]You're absolutely right.
[12:25]I am, I have anxiety as well.
[12:27]I can, I get your dark days.
[12:31]I get the whole thing.
[12:32]I see you at the next meeting.
[12:34]Exactly, exactly.
[12:36]This is one path I had not tried.
[12:38]So, who knows?
[12:41]Barking up the wrong tree.
[12:45]You write about something that had happened to you
[12:48]in law school that had filled you with a lot of shame,
[12:52]but then you don't go into some of those details.
[12:54]You leave a lot of holes on purpose.
[12:56]And sometimes you're like,
[12:57]not telling you that, like, okay, got it.
[12:59]Yes.
[13:01]I know the second chapter is like,
[13:02]and I wrote it when I started writing the book.
[13:05]And then I thought,
[13:06]oh, they're never gonna let me keep this in.
[13:08]And maybe I don't even want to,
[13:09]but it's all about here are all the things
[13:12]I don't wanna write about.
[13:14]This bad thing happened and that thing,
[13:15]it don't drive yourself crazy imagining the worst,
[13:18]but just know that, yes, I've had hardships.
[13:21]I've had extraordinary blessings and luck
[13:23]and no one is more aware of that than I am.
[13:26]But if you're wondering what the heck is she talking about?
[13:29]Does she really know anything about being sad or struggle?
[13:32]Yeah, I do.
[13:33]But we don't need to get into all the wise in-house.
[13:37]So yes, I do leave a few little holes,
[13:39]but what's stopped you from sharing some of that?
[13:41]I mean, it's because it's personal
[13:43]and because it wasn't necessary, I think, I hope.
[13:46]I hope I gave enough.
[13:48]To me, this book is incredibly personal.
[13:51]No, I'm in an excerpting.
[13:53]Yeah, I'm excerpting journal entries that I cringe
[13:57]to reread, let alone publish to the world.
[14:00]You know, so I knew that if you're gonna do this,
[14:04]you can't be a wimp.
[14:05]You've got to be authentic.
[14:07]You've got to bring your whole true self.
[14:09]But there's a point at which you get the picture.
[14:12]You know, so I dabble in telling you
[14:15]the few of the things, the reasons,
[14:17]some of the hard things I went through,
[14:19]but it's not tragedy porn for lack of a better way of saying it.
[14:24]You know, it's not like, oh, the book isn't about me.
[14:27]I mean, it happens in the context of me,
[14:29]but the book is about faith and it's about God.
[14:32]That doesn't happen in a vacuum.
[14:34]Your faith happens in a real life.
[14:36]So you have to come forward and say, you know,
[14:38]I learned this thing when I messed that thing up
[14:42]or when this beautiful thing happened to me,
[14:45]like motherhood, you know?
[14:46]So I've read a lot about my kids
[14:48]because motherhood has been one of the most transformative
[14:51]spiritual lessons of my life.
[14:53]So I'm willing to go there a little bit,
[14:56]but not any more than it's necessary.
[14:58]I hope I struck the balance. I really tried too.
[15:01]No, you did. I was just curious.
[15:02]Yeah, of course.
[15:04]At your book party, which I went to at the invitation.
[15:08]I know. You're so interesting.
[15:09]Anyway, all the women standing up with you
[15:12]were saying I, you know, you were thanking them.
[15:14]And they were, it was clear that each one had
[15:17]encouraged you to write this and that you were very nervous
[15:20]about going there and writing this and doing the whole thing.
[15:23]And now it's a number one,
[15:26]New York Times bestseller blah, blah, blah, just like,
[15:29]you know, how, and you were so,
[15:32]you seem genuinely like nervous about it.
[15:37]How do you feel now?
[15:38]And what has the reception been like
[15:40]on a personal level for you?
[15:42]And I mean, you were emotional then.
[15:44]I can't even imagine now of you've been like sobbing or what?
[15:47]Yeah, I mean, I'm so touched and tickled.
[15:51]And I'm just kind of like, you just,
[15:54]I mean, God is so interesting, right?
[15:56]Like, and that's not like, oh God,
[15:58]me, my book of bestseller, it's not that.
[16:00]It's just more like I was so scared.
[16:02]And I didn't know what people would think.
[16:05]And it's so personal and it's like putting your heart out there.
[16:08]And then I don't have to tell you,
[16:09]we, you know, we live in a world that can be quite cruel
[16:12]and judgmental and unforgiving.
[16:15]And so to be putting your whole real self out there
[16:18]for that scrutiny is extremely terrifying.
[16:22]And the other thing is,
[16:23]even though my friends and family,
[16:25]this is no surprise, you know,
[16:26]you know, you and I had to go out for a drink.
[16:28]It would end up, at some point,
[16:30]if we had a good talk, we would talk about faith.
[16:32]Cause I'd be like, oh, well, I learned that this way.
[16:35]So it's a very much something
[16:36]that all of my friends and family and colleagues know.
[16:40]But we also live in this cosmopolitan,
[16:43]New York City modern world.
[16:45]And it's, you know,
[16:47]I thought are people going to be like this is weird.
[16:50]But in the end, I had to just not care about that.
[16:54]I felt like I had something good to say about God.
[16:56]And I wanted to say it.
[16:59]And I wanted to at least try.
[17:01]And then when I started writing,
[17:03]I will never say that it was easy or effortless,
[17:05]but it came fast.
[17:06]I mean, I did this book in less than a year.
[17:08]And because it was such an alive and thrilling experience,
[17:12]I felt for a long time all last summer,
[17:14]like maybe this isn't even going to be a book.
[17:16]Maybe this is just some little experience
[17:19]that God and I are having together.
[17:21]And isn't that so sweet?
[17:22]And I would think to myself,
[17:24]oh, God knows me so well.
[17:25]He's thinking I got to give her a project or shield.
[17:28]Like she needs a goal or a deadline.
[17:30]You know, that's my personality.
[17:32]So for a long time, I was like,
[17:33]maybe this isn't even going to be a book,
[17:34]but it will be a really cool process to go through.
[17:38]And I'm just so grilled and touched
[17:41]and moved by how people want to connect
[17:43]of all different ways and all different walks of life
[17:47]or no faith at all.
[17:49]I mean, people of different faiths
[17:51]that I've been friends with for years,
[17:53]I've been having deeper conversation with
[17:56]and finding out what they believe.
[17:58]And I mean, people who send in me thought,
[18:01]I was, they like to listen to you in Hebrew,
[18:03]you know, or verses that mean something to them.
[18:05]And these are people I know.
[18:07]These are friends I've had for years.
[18:08]And how cool to open up that lane of meeting.
[18:11]I mean, I just didn't interview with Kara Swisher,
[18:14]who I love in a door and think she's so amazing
[18:16]and she's so fierce.
[18:18]And she said, I want to talk to you about the book.
[18:20]And I was like, you dare.
[18:21]She was like, oh, I love talking to people
[18:23]about their faith.
[18:24]I mean, I'm agnostic, but I'm so interested.
[18:26]And I love that that openheartedness
[18:29]has been what I've encountered, not close mindedness.
[18:32]And that is amazing.
[18:34]And I hope that maybe if people are reading the book
[18:36]that then that's their experience too,
[18:40]that it's a way in, you know,
[18:41]the book is not to persuade or proselytize.
[18:44]But I hope it's a way in to discuss these things
[18:47]no matter what your perspective is on it.
[18:49]It's amazing.
[18:50]It's like, look who's laughing now.
[18:52]All of you people who want to get me.
[18:53]Yeah.
[18:54]Take that.
[18:55]Well, yes, but maybe they didn't in the end
[18:57]or maybe they didn't go in this world.
[18:59]Yes, I know.
[19:00]I'm like, yeah, I mean, I don't need to be all Pollyanna
[19:03]about it.
[19:04]And by the way, I'm still nervous because at any moment,
[19:07]I feel like, oh, somebody could be like, oh, why did you
[19:09]do this?
[19:10]Or, you know, some, the worm could turn at any moment.
[19:14]And I know that.
[19:15]So I'm just counting my blessings.
[19:16]I'm grateful.
[19:17]And I'm also, you know, I'm just retreating back
[19:20]to like, that is quality.
[19:21]You know, like, I wasn't a writer before.
[19:24]I'm not out there.
[19:24]I'm not looking to change or raise my profile
[19:27]or becomes to some new version of myself.
[19:30]I'm now I'm back to just, I wrote the book,
[19:32]I put it out there and so happy that people are responding
[19:35]to it and now I'm back to normal, back to regular programming.
[19:39]Yeah, I can't imagine that anybody associated with the
[19:43]production of this book doesn't want you to write another book.
[19:46]Right.
[19:47]People want you to write another book.
[19:49]Do you want to write another book?
[19:50]Well, no, of course I don't.
[19:52]I really don't want to at all.
[19:54]But I didn't want to write this book.
[19:55]I mean, I did, but I didn't.
[19:57]So I kind of feel like I'm not going to say I'll never do it.
[20:00]although I did tell my publisher I'm one and done because I can't imagine but if some set of
[20:06]circumstances came up in five years or 10 years and I felt like I had something to say and it felt
[20:13]important and right then who's to say I wouldn't but I'm not anxious to do that I'm not looking
[20:19]for this sequel I didn't think I'd have enough to fill a whole book I certainly don't have enough
[20:23]or two so I'm like here it is that's it this is the sum total event I had to say and now
[20:29]but oh well I should say I was going to say there's I don't think I'm supposed to say number
[20:33]mind there's one little thing that's gone along with this book it's fine go ahead but I
[20:37]haven't announced it so ignore I don't know if I'm allowed to so okay you could go
[20:41]something perhaps consider it a deep tease a deep tease yes we are officially teased to thank you
[20:47]now yes something little something little okay by the way I just noticed on the bookmark that you
[20:52]have a word all on here that's do you play word all yes I love word all and actually that is
[20:58]refers to back to the the very last chapter of the book the last section is about purpose
[21:04]and the last chapter I kind of talk about what I think my purpose might be okay which is also
[21:11]really feels very exposed to say I think this might be my purpose and it goes there's a word
[21:18]so the world there's a word you will see the world in the end of the book I actually got to read
[21:22]print I don't because it's a word all but we just copied this squares okay I did not get to the last
[21:27]chapter I'm so sorry oh no worries no right now you're now you will be like oh what is for purpose
[21:32]I know clearly your purpose is to create word all puzzles which I who nobody would have known that
[21:38]so there you go oh I love word all I love all those New York Times games except for spelling
[21:42]b because I can never get it and it's so frustrating do you have authors you admire or who have
[21:49]written similarly about faith in a way that you felt like okay if so and so could do it I could do it
[21:54]I mean I am embarrassed to say I'm a lot less well read than I should be but there are writers
[22:01]I admire in this space who I've read maybe not their whole books although in the case of one
[22:07]name I'll give you I have read her whole book which is Shawnan Equest and I mentioned her actually
[22:11]yes I read my book and she's like yes Shawnan is an amazing writer in this space
[22:17]Sarah Bessie is another writer in this space that I think is profound and Kate Buller
[22:23]and love Kate Buller she wrote this book everything happens for a reason and other lives I'd
[22:28]loved and she's just such a deeply thoughtful cool human being who's like my friend in my mind
[22:36]so those are some of the writers that I admire that are writing in this area amazing but I've
[22:42]never actually read their entire books because I have short attention span problems I relate to
[22:48]that as well that's why your podcast is for me I know it's short and it's short
[22:54]nobody has time to do anything or focus on anything so
[22:59]exactly exactly so last question what advice would you have for aspiring authors I think my best
[23:06]advice would be to just write and don't wait for the book deal or wait for where you know
[23:13]the book is going but to just start and the other part of it and I don't know if this was just
[23:18]specific to me because you know I my background is in journalism and you know I'm used to writing
[23:23]something that has to be ready to be published or broadcast that day so I'm very my my inclination
[23:30]as I was writing last year was to kind of perfect it I didn't want to go on to the next thing
[23:36]until I had really just did and it was presentable and could have been turned in that guy
[23:40]and Richard Engel who is a friend he's our foreign correspondent I met him for coffee
[23:45]just during this whole time and I told him he's written a ton of books he's prolific and he said
[23:50]don't do that just write it don't sit there and make it perfect you know like massage it and
[23:57]want it to be just keep going keep going a book is different than what we do every day where we want
[24:02]something to be presentable and you can turn it into your editor and say okay I'm ready this
[24:07]is ready for broadcast he's like just keep going so I don't know if that applies to everyone but
[24:11]it's your the kind of person who likes to feel that something is really beautiful before you go on
[24:16]to the next just write rough actually my editor he had all these really funny things and one
[24:23]that we're all kind of irreverent and I loved it in one of them was right drunk and edit sober
[24:30]I think he quoted somebody like Urless Hemingway or Poe or someone that was there quote
[24:35]but I loved that right drunk edit sober all right well this might undo some of the
[24:42]anti anxiety stuff but anyway I'm kidding everybody I'm just like to give my son you know
[24:48]I know let it let it rip let it rip it's kind of the idea and you can you can perfect it later
[24:58]well Savannah congratulations I'm really happy for you you you seem so genuine and open and kind
[25:06]and I have no doubt that you are who you are in this book to everybody and that is something
[25:13]I think people can feel and why people respond to your book right when you're really open and you
[25:18]really put it out there people take that as a gift right as opposed to when you feel people
[25:23]costering in some way in their books and then you're like forget it so you know you went out with an
[25:28]open heart and people just like took you in and I think it's great it's amazing oh I'm so I'm so grateful
[25:33]and relieved and thank you Zibi thank you for inviting me we have a lot of friends in common
[25:38]yeah I can't talk to how many people since I wrote a book said you got to talk to my girlfriend Zibi
[25:42]so I'm delighted to be here and be on the podcast thank you for inviting me of course of course
[25:48]anytime and your bookshelves are goals I love the rainbow yes thank you all right all right thanks
[25:55]Savannah thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books if you love it please leave
[26:02]a review and follow us on social at Zibi Owens and at Zibi readers