Gretchen Schreiber, ELLIE HAYCOCK IS TOTALLY NORMAL
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
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[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Gretchen Shriver is the author of Ellie Haycock is totally normal. Gretchen grew up between
[0:36]the hills of Kansas and the hospitals of Minnesota, but now calls the hills of Los Angeles
[0:41]home. Well, that is a nice way to say that. Let me just read that again because that's a really
[0:45]pretty bio-line that I have not heard before. Gretchen Shriver grew up between the hills of Kansas
[0:51]and the hospitals of Minnesota, but now calls the hills of Los Angeles home. So that's just a little
[0:56]taste for you of her writing. After getting her MFA from USC Film School,
[1:00]she works as a professional bookworm for Hello Sunshine Reese Witherspans Media Company.
[1:06]She is always down to run away to Disneyland or a bookstore. Welcome Gretchen. Thanks so much for coming.
[1:12]Hi mom, start out time to read books. To discuss, Ellie Haycock is totally normal. Yes,
[1:18]I really enjoyed this book. I really enjoyed the blog from the mom's perspective, how clever that
[1:25]was. The daughter, I was like frantically like, what's going to happen with the surgery? Is she
[1:31]going to be okay? Like, you know, I'm like, can I Google? How did, you know, what, you know,
[1:36]then I'm like, well, maybe she has this. Maybe she has it anyway. The number of people who have
[1:41]been like, I was gapped in along the lines and trying to figure out what she had and I was like,
[1:45]surprise. You're not going to know. Yeah, exactly. Spoiler alert. Okay, so Gretchen, give the elevator
[1:53]pitch here. What is your book about? Yes. So the easiest way to talk about the book is that
[1:57]it's breakfast club in a hospital. And the slightly longer, more detailed version of the pitch
[2:03]is that it's about a girl named Ellie who keeps her hospital life and her high school life
[2:08]very separate. And it's what happens when a new illness sends her back to the hospital and a new
[2:13]group of friends and a new love interest helped her to see that combining both lives is not only
[2:19]okay, but also totally normal. Awesome. I love that. And talk about your personal connection to
[2:25]the material and your own stuff. Yes. So one of the weird things in my writing journey that I will
[2:32]often say is that when I'm looking for inspiration, I just go to my own medical file and start
[2:37]rooting around for all the weird things that have happened in my life. And so the like sort of
[2:42]medical journey that Ellie is on of having this strange illness and then having surgery and what
[2:47]happens after that surgery is all based on the eight time in my own life where that was also like
[2:52]the sort of ups and downs of like mysterious illness. Don't know what's going on. What if we just
[2:58]started, you know, chopping things out of your body. And then what happens if that doesn't work.
[3:04]So that's like sort of the like the plot backbone of the book. But also I spent my childhood
[3:10]growing up in and around Ronald McDonald houses. And it was sort of like it's not called around
[3:15]McDonald house in the book. And I don't really ever pitch it that way because I find that
[3:20]most people don't know what a Ronald McDonald house is and for really I know. Yeah, like people just
[3:25]don't know. And I'm like, okay. Well, let's talk about that. But for those who don't know, it's a
[3:30]house. It's usually located close to a major medical facility and much like in the book, it's a
[3:35]place where families can stay for either little cost or no costs, whether children are undergoing
[3:40]medical surgeries, treatments, et cetera. And so these like these moments of like places where
[3:45]you can find community and connection while going through something that is arguably like so singular
[3:51]but also like with a bunch of other people who are also going through something was impactful in
[3:57]my life. And so it was like something I never saw in books, especially that talked about kids who
[4:03]were disabled of like this weird sort of I often described it as like some kids went to summer camp
[4:08]and I went to the Ronald McDonald house. And so like you sort of see these same personalities
[4:14]and they become like really, really impactful super, super fast. And then you now
[4:20]thanks to social media, you can probably keep track of each other way more often. But for me, it
[4:24]was like you had these deep emotional connections and you may never see these people ever again
[4:29]partly because you don't want to know if they live or die and partly because you just
[4:34]you go on with your life. And so really wanting to capture those sort of like moments of like what
[4:40]does that feel like to have somebody who can like so intimately understand what you're going through
[4:45]but also maybe not as Ellie finds it Brian. So yeah. So that's kind of like it. And then I mean
[4:52]my mom, I should say my mom did not vlog about me. Okay. Growing up, but she did start a 501c3
[4:59]and nonprofit for families of kids with backdrops when I was a kid. So I sort of grew up around
[5:04]that and watching a lot of moms put everything about their kids online and me going, I don't know
[5:09]if like growing up in the, you know, the becoming of internet age of I don't know if I would want
[5:16]all of my surgeries just out there for the world to see and like Google. So that sort of became like
[5:23]a big part of her relationship with her mom. And then my mom actually came up with like the sort
[5:28]of twist of the book, which is that spoiler alert her parents are secretly divorced on paper,
[5:33]which is like a real thing people do to get healthcare, which is kind of like, wow, our system,
[5:41]what a, what a system. So yeah. So that's kind of the background and inspiration points at the
[5:48]book. Well, I think you did a beautiful job of describing what it's like just on a day-to-day basis
[5:55]like being a younger person in a hospital and in, you know, at home and the interactions and
[6:03]there was one line you had to where you said something like there's you can get over the physical
[6:09]pain, but you can't get over like being left out and having like your regular life just move on
[6:16]without you. Like that is something it is really hard to deal with. Yeah, yeah. And that, I mean,
[6:22]is a whole like portion of Ellie's life is that like, yeah, you can't like everything around you
[6:27]is still sort of going on at home and no one else really knows, you know, it's kind of becomes hard
[6:32]to talk about, especially when you're like Ellie or Caitlin in the book where like this isn't
[6:37]something that you're going to like get over quote unquote. Like this is something that is just
[6:42]going to keep happening and keep coming up and keep doing it. So how do you explain that to like
[6:47]your friends who are so used to like the sort of narrative we have from society, which is you can
[6:53]beat this thing or you can get better or like I think she says it multiple times in the book,
[6:57]you know, something can be solved in 45 minutes or less on a medical trauma and you know,
[7:03]talking about it becomes complicated and that's just yeah. Yeah. And like her devastation
[7:10]when she realized that Jake did know what that he when he came to visit her and she was like,
[7:15]no, no, no, like this was yeah, these were my two. This is not this is not what I wanted.
[7:20]Thanks for the surprise. It's for the surprise mom. Yeah. Yeah. And what it feels like to have
[7:28]someone see you in this like very vulnerable situation that you were like, no, because I'm having
[7:33]a me time and now I have to try and explain and like manage your feelings on the subject when
[7:39]Ellie can barely manage her own. Interesting. So many times. But then you sort of use Ryan as a foil
[7:46]when you are. Yes. And I love not. I love it. It was sad, but the scene where where Ellie goes to
[7:54]visit Ryan and he's very weak and she asks if he has like a standing device or that wasn't the
[8:00]right word, but assisted mobility devices. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the tension of not wanting to
[8:09]slash ask for help, but needing it, but not wanting to be the one giving it and that whole
[8:16]thing and that they both kind of get it. And she has to step into the role anyway.
[8:22]Right. And she's like, I'm going to do it. And he may or may not like it. And I'm going to do it
[8:27]anyway. I mean, I think there I often describe their like relationship as one of those like
[8:33]Ellie, as much as she wants to prove him wrong. And that like doctors will never have all the answers
[8:40]and like, you know, just keep going. Like, sure, have fun with that. I'll be here. You know,
[8:45]she also knows that at some point he's going to get the news that like devastates him,
[8:48]which he does in the book. And like what it's going to feel like she wants to, she wants him to not
[8:54]have that experience, but she knows that it's coming. And like those moments like you're describing
[8:59]kind of like her having to like step in and be like, okay, we're going to do this. And we're going
[9:02]to pick it for the friends. And being there when he sort of discovers that medicine doesn't have
[9:07]all the answers and how devastating that can be is like some of my favorite their interactions
[9:13]or some of my favorite moments of the book. Yes, for sure. Wanted a lot more of that. I even
[9:18]love how she's like covertly texting him about her meetings with the one doctor. And he's like,
[9:23]what are the levels? What are these? And she's like, you know, just like, okay, go for it.
[9:27]You know, like his whole medical coach situation is like medical coach. Thank you. Yes.
[9:34]No, no, no. His like whole thing with her is just so normal. But yeah. And I know I mentioned this
[9:41]at first, but I really feel like this is the first book I've read where the child of a blogger
[9:48]is old enough to write a book and have that point of view because there's, you know, the whole
[9:53]mom blog revolution. What is happening with all those kids? How do they feel? And this is like,
[9:59]you know what? I'm not.
[10:00]feeling so great about it, mom. Yeah. Well, and I think it's like an added layer of like
[10:06]complication for Ellie is that she's like, she's grown up knowing all of these things and it's
[10:11]not okay with it, but also knows thanks to her mom's blog that like this is the last thing that
[10:17]her mom quote unquote has, right? It's like that if like I take this away after I've taken away
[10:22]so much, like my very existence is like quote unquote ruin her life. What does that say about me?
[10:28]And like, can't I just like live through this just a little bit longer and everyone else
[10:34]around her, her friend Caitlin is like, no, you don't have to. You know, it just is a lot to put
[10:40]on a kid that like this is the only thing your mom has left so you have to succumb to the pressure
[10:47]of like you have to subvert your own needs and all of that because otherwise your mom will be upset
[10:53]that mean, well, you're the one who's sick or going through whatever. Yeah. And I don't know.
[10:58]I feel like Ellie is often one of those characters who much like me is somebody who would like
[11:02]cut off her own hand to save someone else of like, you know, she will she'll take it and she'll
[11:09]take the hit rather than being like, actually, could you maybe not hit me again? That would be great,
[11:13]which I think becomes really hard in like trying to find your own voice, which she does,
[11:19]it's a long journey. You also have some other characters who come in and I feel like we're always
[11:25]getting different points of view on how there are good ways of handling this and there are not
[11:30]so good ways or I'm not as productive. So there's one interaction with someone in the home
[11:37]when Ellie's like in the worst mood and she's like, someone broke up with my best friend,
[11:41]did it and the person's like, I'm just going to give you chocolate because when you deal with
[11:46]with breaking up, you need chocolate. And I was like, that is so huge because that's just taking
[11:50]the moment and dealing with the thing, like, we don't have to, you know, like sometimes you just
[11:55]need to deal with the regular things. Yeah. Um, no, Veronica is one of those characters who I think
[12:01]Veronica. She, yeah, no, no, I'm sorry, I have like half a thought and you can fill it in.
[12:06]I feel it. It's a team effort here. She is one of my favorite characters because she does,
[12:13]I think A stand in a lot of times for it. A, the audience of like, she's just a normal kid.
[12:20]She's volunteering at the home and it's kind of trial by firing it with all of these new
[12:27]people that she's meeting and I think that moment that you're describing of like,
[12:31]Ellie has had a terrible day and Veronica is like, huh, well, how's it going? And Ellie is just like,
[12:37]no, we're done. This we are not doing this. I am not putting on a nice face and I'm going to let you
[12:41]have it. And I think the fact that Veronica is like, okay, so this is what I can do. And I'm really
[12:46]sorry. Chocolate. Here's some other things. Have at it is like her first step of like Ellie being like,
[12:53]oh, maybe you're okay. Maybe you're like, you can do it. And she has a couple of missed steps
[12:58]throughout the book that she still is like, well, well, we're Caitlin and Ellie have to be like,
[13:03]you can never say that again to anybody. I'm like, we're going to forgive that.
[13:09]Nick, we're done. So, but at least you know that her heart is in the right place. Yes.
[13:14]And I think that's the thing is like, I think Ellie and Caitlin both are like, okay,
[13:17]you are trying to do right here. Comma, however. Wow. Yeah. So tell me about writing this and coming
[13:28]up with the characters and your process of doing it, your motivation, like, just tell me the
[13:35]backstory of the writing piece. So the writing piece, this was a COVID book. And I feel like
[13:40]all of us either found reading or found writing in COVID-19. Actually, Ellie might have COVID,
[13:47]by the way, that was a theory of mine. Honestly, it probably could have been COVID. I had left
[13:53]LA under really like morbid circumstances because I like Ellie have really compromised lung
[13:59]function. And I was like, look, I should just go back. Maybe see my family one last time. So I drove
[14:04]all the way home to Kansas. And I wrote Ellie, I had been doing another book at the time and sort
[14:10]of put that book aside and was like, I'm filling a promise that I made to a friend because I pitched
[14:15]her a book that was like breakfast club in a hospital. And she was like, I'm never going to let you
[14:19]not write that. So I finally said, okay, I'm going to do it. And I wrote it in seven weeks
[14:24]during the pandemic. And then sort of revised it a little bit, sent it off, discovered very quickly
[14:31]that maybe in a global pandemic where doctors are heroes, maybe a book that maybe is a little
[14:36]critiquing the medical system. Not no way to like agents hearts. And ended up doing an online
[14:45]mentorship program called Pitch Wars that fall. And then in this spring, got an agent who is fabulous,
[14:53]her name is Alex, she's everything. Then strangely enough, it took, we revised it some more to get
[15:00]out in August. And then that April, funnily enough, the night before my mother had surgery, got
[15:07]the offer from Wednesday that they wanted to buy the book. And so I've been on that journey ever since
[15:15]with them. And then the blog actually, I will say the biggest change from like writing it to now
[15:21]was that my editor was the one who was like, I think we actually need to see the blog. And I think
[15:26]you should write the blog post because there was always something that had been referenced. But never
[15:31]something that had like actually been like concretely stated in the book. And so I was like,
[15:37]okay, here we go. Let's write, let's write some blogs. Except for the end, the end had always had
[15:42]the last blog, the last letter to Ellie. So that was that my writing process is what I call
[15:49]and all my friends call chaos. Because I do not write in order. And I do not write with an outline
[15:55]which is terrifies a lot of my friends. And so I would hop around in the draft to sort of be like,
[16:03]oh, I know where these touchstones are. And then that weird thing that happens that I
[16:08]never believed writers could be. But then it happened to me. And I was like, oh, this is that magic of
[16:12]writing where characters would start referencing other conversations or other things that happen.
[16:17]And I'd be like, oh, make just a little note that we've got to go back and actually write that
[16:22]scene now. And then at some point you stitch it all together. And usually as I say, I get to the
[16:28]60,000 word mark. And I have to stitch all the seams that I have in order. And then I throw out 20,000
[16:35]words. And I write 40,000 more words. And I end up with a whole manuscript. And someday I hope to
[16:41]like cut down on that eliminate 20,000 ad 40,000 number. Because that's a lot of like excess work.
[16:48]But that's not happens yet. Because I also did that with my second book of throughout 20,000 to
[16:53]write 40. So my gosh. Wait. So what is then your next book going to be? Well, my editor never
[16:59]told me what I couldn't couldn't tell. So jokes off her. Okay. So my next book is I painted as like
[17:07]Taylor Swift enchanted meets Sarah No with a speculative twist. Okay. So it's about a disabled girl
[17:15]who all the women and her family are, they know their true love at first sight and her determination
[17:23]to fit in with her family, especially that she doesn't look like anyone in her family.
[17:28]And for the first time ever and her family, her parents are getting a divorce. I promise someday
[17:34]the parents will not be divorced in my books. Are your parents divorced? They are not surprisingly.
[17:40]Yeah. I, you know, my mother even was like, pressure me made it through you. You're fine.
[17:45]It's like the divorce rate for parents of kids with disabilities was like 90%.
[17:50]Yeah. So she's there. So she's determined to have the most epic love story. And it's what
[17:55]happens when she finds her person and realizes that she just knows he's her true love. But because
[18:01]she's never like dated anybody or women because like, why date someone when they're not your true
[18:05]love? I mean, you know, okay. So, you know, she's like, what's the point? She falls flat on her face
[18:12]and has to convince her best friend who is a bit of a ladies man. But everyone still loves him
[18:18]that he needs to teach her how to woo her love of her life. And what happens when her best friend
[18:23]says, but what if I love you more? And what if you give up on a love that fate has chosen for
[18:29]a love that fate could never dream of? And so wow. So it's all like magical, little, little
[18:36]mystical and lots of friends and drama again. So wow. Yeah. That sounds great. Sounds good. So
[18:43]yeah, April 2025. Wow. That's going to come in like two seconds. I know. No time. Oh my gosh.
[18:51]I don't even know how it's March. Well, it gets the middle of March. I know. I'm
[18:55]though time just yeah, yeah way too fast. So when I first heard your name, it was affiliated
[19:02]with Reese's book club because didn't you used to get all the pitches for that?
[19:05]I still do. Oh, you still do. Okay. I still do. I have. Nope. Nope. I have like one of those
[19:11]weird writers with a day job that is also in books. So yeah, what how did you end up there? And
[19:18]what has that been like? Yeah. So I came to California originally. I went to grad school before
[19:24]producing for film television and through media. And then graduated into that casual graduate
[19:30]without a job thing at a terrible job market. Welcome to the millennial, you know, life cycle.
[19:35]And I started just sort of working in any odd job that I had. I worked at a bookstore. It was like
[19:41]the sort of constant. I ghost wrote romance novels. I input metadata for a studio. And then I
[19:49]also like read scripts for a fellowship. And the thing about freelancing that no one
[19:55]tells you is that it's a young person's game. And about the time that I was 20.
[20:00]eight and had seven jobs at one time, I was like, I can't, my body is too old. And I
[20:07]let all my friends know that I was like, I want a job and a benefit. And that's it.
[20:12]And so a friend emailed me and was like, Hey, Reese is looking for a personal assistant. Would
[20:17]you be interested? And I was like, sure, I'll get the coffee. And my, you know, resume did the
[20:25]whole, like, to a friend, a friend, a friend and over to Reese's people. And they called me
[20:29]in. And in the interview, I mentioned, Oh, I read 200 scripts a year and 80 books. And they were like,
[20:35]what? This was at the very beginning of Hello Sunshine. I think I had even like, they were like,
[20:42]we're going to have you go meet with Hello Sunshine. And I even like remember Googling it. And it was like
[20:45]the only thing that said was like, actress Reese with her spoon starts production company, you know,
[20:51]and I went in and I was like, Oh, you have a book club. That's really cool. Books to grant
[20:56]book to all these things. And they were like, we don't know about any of this. So clearly we need
[21:01]you. And they offered me a job. And I said, done. And I was in 2017. And I've been there. I've
[21:09]done different jobs, sort of always doing a lot of the reading and helpful curation. But I've
[21:14]helped with our audible projects. I've helped with the build out of Reese's book club, because it's
[21:18]become what it is today. And so yeah, now I do reading. And then I help run lit up, which is our
[21:26]writing fellowship that we do for underrepresented women and non binary storytellers. So yeah,
[21:32]it's been, it's been a while. But right. It'll be six years, seven years this August, which is,
[21:38]I don't know. And yeah. Wow. So when you're when you're reading for book club, is it what you like?
[21:47]Is it what you're trying to like, you know, cross off? Like, how do you, how do you marry your
[21:54]own tastes with trying to like read? Because I'm sure a lot of people do this or from publishing
[21:59]houses or other outlets, right? You have to read for the company that you're working for. But you
[22:04]have your own tastes as well. How do you marry the two? So I think that the bigger part of that is
[22:08]like really understanding that at the end of the day, everything has to be resapproved. So it's
[22:13]it's almost like you are trying to like take off the like, this is my personal jam. And like,
[22:19]being able to say, this is a good book on its merits alone. This is why Reese will like it.
[22:25]And so it's like a very strange thing of we like set up a lot of like different guidelines and
[22:30]having done this now for like seven years. I can kind of be like, Oh, I think she'll like this about it.
[22:35]I think she'll like this. You know, you sort of the first couple of years, we get a lot of back
[22:39]and forth. No, I don't like that try again. And now it's it's a little less often that we get
[22:46]a try again. But it's not so much my own personal taste. It's recognizing this is a good book.
[22:52]It's a fast like it's a fast read. We love a good read. You know, you're always sort of looking
[22:57]at the end of the day for that book that sort of like sucks you in. And like the page falls away
[23:02]and you're just like reading something for enjoyment. But I also will say like on the flip side
[23:06]of that if I don't tend my own reading outside of work, then I really struggle with my day job.
[23:12]So it's like I do have to feed myself and what I like and then go and like feed the work of like,
[23:19]oh, here we go. And sort of I don't know if any of that made sense, but it's like you kind of
[23:24]have to have like feet in two corners, but also like weigh everything more toward that. And then
[23:30]I think I'm also just extra hard on things that I over index on. So like fantasy sci-fi romance,
[23:36]I'm like, okay, it's got to be like it can't just be, is this just because I love it? Or is it
[23:41]because like it's actually good and she will enjoy it. So well, I feel like the last six years
[23:47]have seen a shift in the market to towards those types of books. Yes, it's been strange to watch
[23:53]them like sort of, I want to say rebrand women's fiction to like book club fiction. But yeah,
[23:59]it's been wild to sort of watch like book club fiction take over the world and be like,
[24:06]all right, I've had a hand in like shaping this, which is like terrifying in both like amazing.
[24:12]Well, I mean, you too, like, you know, like your podcast, your bookstore and everything. Like
[24:17]it's a smaller scale. But yeah, you know, it's still a puppy. And so, you know, it's definitely,
[24:25]I don't know, it's been weird to watch publishing sort of go back and forth as they try to figure it
[24:29]out. And I'm always fascinated when editors come and be like, I have the perfect Reese's book club
[24:34]book for you. And I'm like, play it on me because I can guarantee you probably don't.
[24:39]But I'm always fascinated when people tell me they think they know what a Reese's book club
[24:44]pick is. And I'm like, describe it, go for it. Because I think it's like seven years, I think it's
[24:49]very clear what what a Reese's book club book looks like. But, you know, sometimes sometimes
[24:54]people get it right and sometimes people are like, like, nope, try it again. But it was a good book.
[24:59]Yeah. Or maybe they just are hoping. They're just hoping. Yeah. I mean, there's so much vote for it.
[25:05]Yeah. Is there a book that you passed on early that like became a huge hit and you're like,
[25:12]I should have recommended that or no, there are definitely books that I think became a huge hit.
[25:17]And like something we like talk about like internally is like a confident pass. Like we have our
[25:22]reasons. Yep. You know, like we can see that this will become a thing and we know why. But we're
[25:28]okay saying no. You know, so I definitely think back on some of those books where I'm like,
[25:33]yep, we saw that book. And you know, it's interesting. And I'm sure you see it a little bit too
[25:39]of like when you get a book before all of the buzz, but there's really sort of like there's
[25:45]like, I don't want to say pure moment, but there's this moment of like, I can't judge on what anyone
[25:49]else is saying about this book. Like I purely have to go just on my reaction to it. And then sort
[25:55]of go, well, it's good. I can see why this will appeal to a lot of people. And we can either like
[26:02]pick it up, but does it align with what we want and does it align with what, you know,
[26:07]Reese will love. And then you have to just trust. Oh, go ahead. No, I was wondering how many books
[26:12]you think you read in a given week or a month or oh my gosh, this is always the question.
[26:17]I read anywhere from three to four books in full a week. And if I'm not looking at full,
[26:23]I will read anywhere from like seven to 10 partial a week. And that can be anywhere from like
[26:28]five percent to like 25 percent, which I'm sure is like making authors everywhere go.
[26:34]And also as an author makes me go, oh, and I used to not be understanding of why agents
[26:39]needed five pages from you. And then I'm like, oh, nope, I understand now, but I learned that
[26:45]I learned that quickly too. Yeah, yeah, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, get it. Oh my gosh. Well,
[26:51]Gretchen, oh my gosh, congratulations. Ellie, hey, hug will stay with me. I feel like I am on
[26:58]the lookout for her and Ryan and her mom and all the characters. So congratulations.
[27:05]Thank you so much. Okay.
[27:09]Thanks for listening to momstone have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review
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