Julia Alvarez, THE CEMETERY OF UNTOLD STORIES
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zippy Owens or join the community at Zippy Readers.
[0:31]Julia Alvarez is the author of the cemetery of untold stories novel. And by the way,
[0:37]this is Zippy's book club pick. So be sure to join Zippy's book club. You can do so by clicking
[0:43]on Zippy Media for the book club section under gatherings or just go right to bookclubs.com
[0:49]and search Zippy's book club and join right there on bookclubs.com and you will get automatic
[0:55]links to the book club and get to have 30 minutes of conversation followed by 30 minutes of Q&A
[1:01]with the author and in this case it will be with Julia Alvarez. So check it out for the full
[1:07]schedule. Okay Julia Alvarez left the Dominican Republic for the United States in 1960 at the age
[1:12]of 10. She is the author of six novels, three books of nonfiction, three collections of poetry,
[1:17]and 11 books for children and young adults. She has taught and mentored writers in schools and
[1:22]communities across America and until her retirement in 2016 was a writer in residence at Middle
[1:27]Berry College. Her work has garnered wide recognition, including a Latina leader award in literature
[1:32]from the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute, the Hispanic Heritage Award in literature,
[1:37]the woman of the year by Latina magazine, and inclusion in the New York Public Libraries program,
[1:41]the hand of the poet, original manuscripts by 100 masters from John Dunn to Julia Alvarez.
[1:47]In the time of the butterflies, with over 1 million copies in print was selected by the National
[1:53]Endowment for the Arts for its National Big Read program, and in 2013 President Obama awarded
[1:59]Alvarez the National Medal of Arts and recognition of her extraordinary storytelling.
[2:04]Welcome Julia. Thank you so much for coming on moms. Don't have time to read books.
[2:09]To discuss the cemetery of untold stories and novel, which I have picked for my book club also
[2:15]because I think it is so great. Thank you so much for having me, City. This is one of my first
[2:20]podcasts. I've done a couple of interviews mostly written, so I'm really fresh and therefore
[2:27]not practiced good. I don't want media-trained practice stuff. That's a waste of everyone's time,
[2:35]I feel like. We just want to know the real authors, right? People want to know what people
[2:39]really like. They want to know about the pajamas and the, you know, that's the stuff of real
[2:44]life that people can relate to. In fact, that's part of why I feel like I related to your book so
[2:49]much and why it hit home so much for me and I think for untold readers untold stories,
[2:56]because the way you write about a writer and the writing life and aging and all of the thoughts
[3:05]and fears that we all have and how that's all interwoven. I mean, it's so the voice is so
[3:11]relatable and accessible, even though it's beautiful writing and very literary, which is tough to
[3:17]pull off. So, bravo dii. Well, thank you. Thank you. So tell listeners, what is the cemetery of untold
[3:24]stories about? My editor and publisher said, I'll go and call it the elevator pitch and I always
[3:30]ask, can we can we take the local and set of the express for this book? Because there's so many
[3:36]little pieces, but basically it's about it. We will take the stairs. We can take the stairs.
[3:41]It'll be the stairs at the slow escalator just so take your time. You can take the whole podcast
[3:47]scaring the book. Well, it's very much a book about, of course, as I enter my own old age and
[3:55]aging also in a craft and something you practice passionately all your life. The questions and
[4:01]the preoccupations are, what is this landscape about? I often write to find out not things I already
[4:09]know, but to understand, not in a kind of rational way, but to understand the landscape I'm
[4:16]traveling to through. It's kind of like a labyrinth and the narrative is my little thread in that
[4:23]labyrinth. And so I yearn and just absolutely devour any books about aging creative people,
[4:30]aging period, aging women, aging Latinas, you know, what is this experience like? And as more
[4:37]more of us boomers are entering this landscape, I think we're all eager and curious to find out.
[4:44]So I wanted to find out through story, which is the way I understand things, what it's like for
[4:50]an older writer as she comes to the end of her craft, the end of her energies or animal. And what
[4:57]happens with all those stories? She hasn't been able to tell. So in a nutshell, that's the entry into
[5:03]the cemetery of untold stories. And how did you come up with the rest of it and this whole creative
[5:10]idea? I mean, it's awesome. Where did that come from? Oh my goodness, I haven't a clue.
[5:16]I must tell you that I've always admired books set in cemeteries, whether it's the Neil
[5:21]Gameman. I think it's called the graveyard book or George Saunders, Lincoln in the Bardo,
[5:27]or our town. I mean, it goes back, you know, and you think of Dante, you think of Gilgamesh,
[5:33]the first literary, I mean, written epic. And it's about traveling through the underworld.
[5:39]There's just an intrigue with it. And I was thinking, you know, what would a writer do with these
[5:44]unfinished tales? What would she, how would she lay them to rest? And of course, she would
[5:51]maybe create a place where they could go. And of course, being Dominican, part of my Dominican
[5:57]culture with son, that he and animism and spirits and so forth is that there is this world of
[6:04]the invisible. And I've always, when I've finished a book, have certain rituals, I do,
[6:09]because the characters are still in my head. And I want to get on to the next story,
[6:13]but there's still in there. So I've had rituals that I do, including within the time of the butterflies,
[6:19]when I was done with it, they would not go away. They would not go away. So when I was in the
[6:24]Dominican Republic, I went to the meet-up-out house and I buried the final draft in their car.
[6:30]No. Really? Yes. Now we knew and luckily know about it. They're survivors because
[6:37]I thought I need to take them home. And so, you know, in some ways, now looking back,
[6:42]now when I was up against this novel and didn't know where the hell I was going, it just seemed
[6:47]like, oh, of course, of course, your own life has been showing you that this is the thing to do.
[6:54]So, of course, Alma, my main character, E.K. Aisha Harris at her pen name, goes back to the
[7:01]homeland to put her stories into the ground they came from, because so many of her stories
[7:06]come from there. And just like that, a Mexican saying I've seen on protest signs for immigrant
[7:12]rights, they tried to bury us. They did not know we were seeds. It's almost as if Alma's stories
[7:19]once she's buried them say, she tried to bury us. She did not know we were stories. So, they
[7:25]won't stay put. And so, the whole neighborhood in Barrio and all their stories come into the cemetery.
[7:33]And so it goes. And that's the way stories work. Wow. I think I'm particularly fascinated because
[7:38]I've joked often that with all the books in here and I spend a lot of time here in my office,
[7:44]I'm sitting here in a room surrounded by books. I wonder like what happens to the characters when
[7:49]I leave the room or do they all kind of get to know each other. And sometimes I'm so deep into
[7:54]all these books. And I'm like, oh my gosh, the woman in this book really needs to be friends with
[7:59]the woman enough. Like, they would totally get along. And I even went so far as to introduce
[8:04]two authors. And I said, listen, your main characters really need to like have a conversation.
[8:08]And they were like, thanks, but no thanks. It's like, how beautiful of you. I love that.
[8:15]I love that. Anyway, so I'm very interested in this whole thing. Like, where do all the characters
[8:21]come from? And where do they go? Could they exist on some planet? I don't know. It's just never
[8:27]mind. But I like to think about it. Also, what you were saying, you know, characters, sometimes they're
[8:33]more vivid and real because you see their interiority in a way that you often don't see even
[8:38]intimates in that kind of fullness. And sometimes, you know, I'll be walking. I think, oh, that woman
[8:45]looks just like Mrs. Dalloway. Oh, my God, that could be a half. Oh, you know, it's a, you're like,
[8:51]but these are fictive characters. And sometimes you go to a reading and someone who's loved and
[8:57]earlier book of yours comes up with a real little kid and says, I named her after me, Nanma.
[9:04]It's just, I know, it's part of our world. Like, I was talking about spirit cultures and that
[9:11]these imaginative creations accompany us. They're critical. In fact, they help us map the world and
[9:19]understand it. And that's pretty important. You know, so I totally understand.
[9:25]I actually, so I wrote a novel that just came out last week. And the main character is named
[9:29]Pippa Jones. And in my Instagram direct messages, I got a message from Pippa Jones. And she's like,
[9:36]oh, I am Pippa Jones. And that's my name. And she's like, I bought your book because of the name.
[9:41]And then I ended up really liking your book. And I was like, oh, my God. So then I was like, wait,
[9:47]tell me more about you. I was like, maybe she really is this person, but she's, I don't know,
[9:53]well, congratulations. Thank you. You're yet another kind of mom to a book. Yeah.
[10:00]That would be good, like a hashtag book mom on a shirt or something like that.
[10:09]Julie, can I just read a couple of things that you wrote even just about aging and about
[10:15]writing that I was like starring everywhere? Because the way you use even analogies to talk about it,
[10:21]let me just read this one thing. Critics like to write about the late style, usually a euphemism
[10:26]for a messy grasping for what has passed. The glow of celebrity now tinged with nostalgia
[10:31]might keep the fan fires going, but Alma didn't want anyone's condescension or pity.
[10:36]The time had come to stop beating herself up for not being able to finish anything.
[10:39]She was trying to hold on to the literary version of good looks, the plastic surgeries of
[10:45]astute agents and editors, nipping and tucking the flagging work. Every worker knows to put
[10:51]aside her tools at the end of the workday, even that paramount narcissist, Prospero.
[10:57]I love that. I just love that. You say also one thing she could choose after spending decades
[11:04]giving characters lives a shapely form, Alma wanted to close the story of her own writing life
[11:09]in a satisfying way. And then the last one, so easy to pontificate and so difficult to bring a
[11:14]character to life. The words made flesh, if her readers could only see her on any given writing day,
[11:20]humbled by the continual little failures of getting a sentence right, or a character's name,
[11:25]or tone of voice. Oh my gosh, I could just keep going. Love all of that. There's the way you
[11:32]use your language. I mean, it's just really awesome. Are you worried about your own career,
[11:36]the end of your career, and tell me more about these thoughts and feelings?
[11:41]Well, you know, worried, I'm not really sure that's the word, but it's in my sight, guys.
[11:49]How does this end? I had begun this book, and then I went through health crisis,
[11:55]in which I lost vision in one eye. I'm so sorry. But the resulting thing is that with the
[12:01]other one I was seeing double, so all these questions of whether or not I was going to
[12:06]finish what I had started and what would be how I would end it all. It was right up against me,
[12:13]you know, how will this end? And in a way, when I was able to slowly, you know, with a magnifying
[12:20]glass, get back to work, I felt instead of like this dread, I felt this kind of joy, this reaper
[12:27]that I had returned to writing out of the sheer joy and playfulness, the careerism, the getting
[12:35]published, the getting attention, all that stuff that had kind of bowed me. I was out of the game,
[12:42]and now I could write and enjoy myself again. And that has been one of the gifts of this. So,
[12:48]yeah, I was, these issues were very much alive in a personal way. And also, I, you know, this was
[12:54]during COVID, where death was all around us and how to navigate this landscape with these
[13:02]figures of people dying that became, I mean, unbelievable and hard to picture, you know, it just felt
[13:08]like we were living in this underworld. And so, yeah, the issues of, I mean, we're seeing it now
[13:14]with presidential candidates. Is it appropriate? Does it write or stop writing? I mean, you have the
[13:20]Alice Monroe's and Philip Ross who say, that's it. I'm, you know, I'm done. And many of them
[13:26]come back and say, but on the other hand, one more thing. But still, you know, it's a sense that
[13:32]I'm never going to stop writing. It's part of how I breathe and put things together. But, you know,
[13:38]whether or not your doors are going to be told out there in the larger public, it's just a
[13:43]question, you know, and it's not that the book comes to any conclusion or message, but it does
[13:50]what I love fiction can do. And what Checkoff said was the task of the writer not to solve the
[13:56]problem, but to state it correctly, to have the questions. And wonder about them and not stick
[14:04]your head in the sand, but look at them from varying angles of when do you sit down and applaud
[14:11]the new generations coming, you know, they're writing their talent, their energy, their brilliance.
[14:18]I mean, I believe in evolution when I see some of these young writers writing incredible books.
[14:25]I couldn't have written a their age. So, yeah, it's questions that we ask ourselves, you know,
[14:30]when do I step back and, you know, let my face sag and my body do what gravity does to it with
[14:38]the years and not try to be, you know, a cosmetic surgery beauty. And that how does that apply to
[14:45]the writing? Can you tell me more about the things that had taken your joy away? Well, I think all of
[14:52]us that, you know, are trying to be writers have in the course of now, my gosh, almost 50 years in
[14:59]this world have seen more and more of the writers are taken into a public sphere. I mean,
[15:06]think about an Emily Dickinson. That's the extreme, okay? Because you also have the self-promoter
[15:11]while women. But usually a writer wrote the book. And the way I responded to a book I loved
[15:17]is I would stroke the cover. I would hold it. I would reread it. I would head for the library
[15:23]and find the next book or another book by that writer. And now you go online. And there's
[15:30]all kinds of other accessories to the book. And you as a writer are asked to participate in that.
[15:37]And he can be overwhelming, especially some writers have the personality to do that and do that
[15:43]well and do that joyfully. And some are more, you know, they have Emily Dickinson,
[15:48]Jeans. And it's hard for them to be out there. And, you know, there's a kind of exposure
[15:55]after being so intensely private and writing for years. You're out there. And it can become
[16:02]overwhelming. And also, if it took you a long time to get there, I didn't publish Garcia
[16:08]girls till I was 41. I see young struggling writers. And I think, you know, someone helped me out,
[16:16]you know, someone sat in my front row and clapped and said, bravo. Someone did that, you know,
[16:22]and I want to, if I have the microphone, share it and feel a part of a community. And that involves
[16:29]sometimes adding on, adding on. And soon you're just overwhelmed with just how much you can do
[16:36]and still have a life as students and other things that are important. So that's the thing that
[16:42]can get stale on the public sphere, on the private sphere, you've learned certain things.
[16:49]And as I said before, part of the excitement of writing is to try to find things out,
[16:55]to try to discover things. And when you feel like you already know them,
[17:00]you can't learn something you think you already know. Because I want to release,
[17:06]not, you don't already know everything, but you have to release that kind of mind frame so that
[17:12]you can rediscover and everything is fresh again. And that's something you have to regain with
[17:19]each book, I feel, you know, that kind of, okay, this is a different book, moms know this,
[17:25]you know, this is a different child. What work with the first one is not going to work this time.
[17:29]And I have to relearn this role with this child or with this book. That's an interesting
[17:35]analogy. Back to your whole book mom thing. This is great. Just keep this going.
[17:40]How in the course of your career, how have you learned to deal with trends or the market or
[17:49]any of that versus what you feel like writing, like what do you do with all that or do you just
[17:54]ignore it? Well, I think luckily for a writer with my personality, I live in Vermont,
[18:01]where sometimes I'm the last person in all things or I'll find out that word is a trigger word
[18:08]or this. Oh, you know, nobody told me that. So I think part of it is I don't live in like
[18:15]a hub like New York or Boston, where there's readings and tons and tons of bookstores out here in
[18:21]the countryside. So there's a larger book, I'm a nature and community and all rhythms, which I'm
[18:29]more involved in than a literary world. And so trends, of course, I'm aware of them. I mean,
[18:36]in a sense, you could say they benefited me because I was trying to get published in the 80s and
[18:43]I would get things rejected. And it was sort of like books about Latino characters or by us
[18:50]were kind of like sociology, not literature. And then came this huge multi-cultural boom, you know,
[18:57]you think of Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan and all of a sudden the literary doors blew open.
[19:04]And everybody became interested in this multi-cultural writing and the writing of Latin America,
[19:10]the Latin American boom. So in a way, it benefited me. But then, you know, there's always the downside
[19:18]that you become, you know, what was it that Aditi talked about, the danger of a single story,
[19:25]you become like, this is the story of Dominicans. So you don't want that because you're not a brand
[19:32]and you're not a spokesperson. So it's got its double edge, these trends. And I think, you know,
[19:39]finally, I'm more interested in a culture of true inclusiveness and generosity where you don't get
[19:45]down in your ethnic or racial or literary bunker because we're all in this together. And if anything,
[19:53]teaches us that it's the world of story, you know, where anybody can become somebody else.
[20:00]like who they are across time and gender and even species.
[20:06]So that's why I came to story.
[20:08]And I have to remind myself that's why I'm still there.
[20:12]Not to be, you know, a brand or,
[20:15]and I really never want to get involved when there's kind of a,
[20:19]I don't know, going after a writer for this that are the other.
[20:22]Because I think we're all on a learning curve.
[20:25]And if we make a mistake publicly and we grow from it
[20:29]and we're chasing by it.
[20:31]And we get bigger because of it for heaven's sakes.
[20:34]You know, we got bigger things to do.
[20:37]Then, you know, using and theming and all that stuff.
[20:41]I totally agree.
[20:42]That's very wise and very true.
[20:45]I'm not a fan of cancel culture.
[20:47]Oh my God.
[20:48]Oh, finally. Yeah.
[20:49]I lost the word as I was talking to you.
[20:51]Yes.
[20:52]And cancel culture.
[20:53]How scary is that that we would do that to people?
[20:56]I mean, some people are truly egregious and refused to recognize their issues.
[21:02]And they need to be called out on it, but not buried.
[21:06]Yes.
[21:07]As much as we would want with certain people.
[21:10]What advice would you give to aspiring authors?
[21:13]Oh, so classic for my boomer generation.
[21:17]But I'm a meditator and I'm a yoga person.
[21:20]And I do believe in a practice.
[21:24]And writing is no different.
[21:26]The practice of writing.
[21:28]It's a habit that you embed in your life.
[21:31]If every day I said, well, you know, I don't feel like doing that yoga.
[21:35]I don't have the bandwidth to meditate.
[21:38]You still do it.
[21:39]It's not going to be perfect.
[21:40]The same with writing.
[21:41]It's a way of life.
[21:43]And sure, the publications, the attention that you've done.
[21:47]Good girl applause is great.
[21:50]And gives you fuel for going forward on those difficult days.
[21:55]But it's really about that love.
[21:58]That's what I said.
[21:59]It was so important to regain that joy.
[22:02]That joy and writing that not that it's easy.
[22:05]You're still pulling your hair.
[22:07]But there's something that feels enlarging.
[22:10]You lose yourself.
[22:12]The world becomes a field of innocence.
[22:14]Once she listens to these stories, her heart becomes larger.
[22:17]There's more room in it for everybody else.
[22:21]And that's its own reward.
[22:25]I love that.
[22:26]Oh, my gosh.
[22:27]Thank you.
[22:28]You did it.
[22:29]Great job.
[22:30]One of your first podcasts.
[22:31]That's it.
[22:32]As I said, I got a little scared when I saw your color coded books.
[22:36]No, no, no.
[22:37]And my fiction and my poetry properly.
[22:40]So I have to search all my bookshelves.
[22:42]And there's a lot of them to find certain things.
[22:45]Yeah.
[22:46]I can't find anything.
[22:47]But it looks pretty.
[22:48]So there you go.
[22:49]When they do a new edition and they change the color of the cover,
[22:54]how do you deal with that?
[22:55]I'm not touching that wall.
[22:56]I don't care what happens.
[22:57]I don't care if there's paper back.
[22:59]I don't know.
[23:00]That's not moving anywhere.
[23:01]And everything else can be shoved in somewhere else.
[23:04]Along with keeping the same page numbers,
[23:08]no matter the addition.
[23:09]Because as a teacher, you always worry.
[23:11]Oh, a new edition.
[23:12]If I say turn to page 42, well,
[23:14]everyone have the same thing.
[23:17]That should be a requirement.
[23:18]Keep the same color precision.
[23:19]Keep the same color.
[23:20]Yes.
[23:21]Yes.
[23:22]Thank you very much.
[23:23]First, Jack.
[23:25]Same color cover for Zibi.
[23:29]Well, thank you for the new hashtag.
[23:31]Now we have book mom and this one.
[23:33]Yeah.
[23:34]There you go.
[23:35]Thank you.
[23:36]OK.
[23:37]Have a great day.
[23:38]Bye-bye.
[23:39]Bye-bye.
[23:41]Thanks for listening.
[23:42]Two moms don't have time to read books.
[23:43]If you love it, please leave a review.
[23:45]And follow us on social at Zibi Owens and at Zibi Readers.