NYT bestselling author! Katherine Center, THE ROM-COMMERS
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Catherine Center is the author of the Romcomers, a novel.
[0:35]Catherine is the New York Times best-selling author of 11 novels, including the bodyguard,
[0:40]Hello Stranger, which she was on this podcast to discuss already,
[0:43]things you save in a fire, and now the Romcomers.
[0:46]Catherine writes deep nuanced romcoms that brim with hope and healing.
[0:49]The movie adaptation of her novel, Happiness for Beginners,
[0:52]became a Netflix movie in 2023 and hit the global top 10 in 81 countries.
[0:58]The movie of her novel, The Lost Husband, hit number one on Netflix in 2020.
[1:02]Catherine lives in her hometown of Houston, Texas, with her husband
[1:05]to almost grown kids and their fluffy but fierce dog.
[1:09]Welcome, Catherine. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books again
[1:13]to talk about your latest book, The Romcomers. Congratulations.
[1:16]Thank you. So exciting.
[1:19]Actually, listeners, you can't see this, but Catherine has a scarf that totally matches
[1:23]the bright pink awesomeness and orange and green and blue of the cover,
[1:28]and also somehow is coordinated her entire wall behind her to match the covers,
[1:32]well, which is really pulling off a great feat.
[1:35]Anyway, okay, Catherine, tell us about The Romcomers and what it's about.
[1:40]Lease, oh my gosh. So The Romcomers is a romantic comedy about writing a romantic comedy.
[1:48]So it's a story about two screenwriters who are writing a romantic
[1:52]comedy together and they fall madly in love with each other.
[1:57]And that's not a spoiler. That's just something to look forward to.
[2:01]My pink sister is a huge reader and she's always like, no spoilers.
[2:04]And I'm like, no, no, no. With a love story, it's not a spoiler. It's like a gift.
[2:08]It's a gift. You know they're going to get together.
[2:11]He's written a romantic comedy screenplay and it's terrible and she gets hired
[2:18]to come in and fix it as a ghost writer. And he doesn't want her there.
[2:23]He's actually pretty successful on his own.
[2:25]But he writes mafia movies and monster movies and shark movies and stuff.
[2:29]And he's never tried to do a romcom before, which is a rather special category.
[2:35]So he doesn't know what he's doing and she comes in and teaches him a few things.
[2:39]And of course, like a good man, he falls madly in love with her for all of her
[2:44]feistiness and smarts and, you know, goodness. And then, you know, that's really the story.
[2:50]I mean, each of the characters has a lot of things that they need to sort of overcome.
[2:54]There's a lot of growth and healing that happens in the story. But at its heart, it's a love story.
[2:59]It's a romcom. Amazing. And it's set up by her ex-boyfriend, which is a crazy twist
[3:07]in and of itself. I don't know that I would trust those recommendations. I mean, you never know.
[3:12]Would you trust your recommendation for a job from an ex-boyfriend?
[3:15]I might depend on the ex-boyfriend. But yeah, they've kind of become
[3:21]friends over the years. Like, it's from high school. And, you know, the ex-boyfriend, after high school,
[3:26]his life got better and better and better. And her life got worse and worse and worse.
[3:31]You know, she had a family tragedy and then she had to spend the next 10 years,
[3:35]like, dealing with the family tragedy. So she is a person who had a lot of potential
[3:40]that has not been realized. And I think the boyfriend, who the ex-boyfriend, who cares about
[3:45]her, it bothers him that she never got to reach her potential. So he kind of just wants to help her.
[3:51]He's just a good person. But his way of doing that is a little bonkers. That's true.
[3:55]Yes. And she did have a sister who stepped up to the plate, finally, right?
[4:00]Yes. Yes. She has a little sister who she, after their mom died, she wound up sort of looking
[4:06]after her little sister and being like, a surrogate mom. And sort of, and she's 10 years older
[4:10]than her little sister. So she kind of became the mom of their family. And at the start of the story,
[4:15]the little sister has just graduated college and she comes back over and sort of takes over
[4:20]all the things that need to be taken care of at home. And let's, let's our main character Emma
[4:24]go off and, you know, take a stab at her dreams, which is kind of where the story starts.
[4:30]Yes. Which is amazing. And then of course we get to the banter and the guy, what's the
[4:37]Kevin not being like the nicest at first and, you know, all of that. It's so fun and like feisty.
[4:43]How you write the characters? How do you figure out who they are? Is it as it comes to you?
[4:47]Like, did you know what they would be like? Like, just tell me more about that.
[4:51]Yeah. I always, I think that what I start with with characters is just kind of trying to figure out
[4:56]like what are they struggling with? You know, because I think our struggles sort of guide our lives
[5:03]and all these sort of funny ways. And so what is it that they need to overcome? What is it that
[5:08]they need to figure out? What wrong assumptions do they have in their lives about what really
[5:13]matters and who they are that they maybe need to really think that maybe the story can help them
[5:18]with is kind of where I start. And so I always do have a sense of like there's something
[5:24]for both main characters in a romcom because I always have a, I always write them in the first person
[5:30]and the sort of woman in the story is always kind of my main narrating point of view character.
[5:37]But I try to treat both of the people in the story and this little love story that's going to
[5:42]develop as equally, you know, three-dimensional and everybody has an arc that they need to go through.
[5:49]Right. So I kind of figure out for both of those people and for the side characters too,
[5:53]what are the things that they need to figure out and what are the ideas that they need to challenge?
[5:58]And then I put, and then somewhere in there and it's different for every book, but somewhere in there
[6:02]I wind up with some kind of a situation that they're going to be in together. And then from then on,
[6:08]it's like once I know what this situation is and once I know like the sort of very basics about
[6:13]those two characters, then it's like you just put them in that arena and you kind of see what
[6:17]happens for me, that is kind of how it goes. So I sort of get to know them the way that you get
[6:23]to know real people in life by just kind of seeing the things that they do and hearing the things
[6:27]that they say. And you know, as you go along, you're like, oh, so that's your thing. Like,
[6:33]getting that now. So yeah, it's very like for me, it's kind of organic. I don't always know
[6:38]everything at the beginning. I have ideas and I have kind of a list of what I want to see happen.
[6:44]And I know that there will be at least a happy love ending by the end, but exactly how
[6:50]I'm going to torture them on the way to getting there. Do you feel like we can ever run out of
[6:56]characters? I mean, what number is this for you? What number? This is 11. I'm starting to lose
[7:02]count myself. I'm not a math person. So it's bonding for me now. Yeah, it's that, do I feel like
[7:08]we have to run out of character? No, no, not for me. I have a big long list of stories that I would
[7:13]love to write if I ever had the time. You know, and I'm kind of a one book, a year kind of a person.
[7:19]And I also kind of write realistic fiction in the sense that, you know, all my stories take place
[7:25]in a world that is very much our world. I mean, there's no aliens, right? There's no time travel.
[7:31]But I have all these stories that come to me that do have aliens and time travel.
[7:35]But I have them on a separate list of like, you know, maybe someday, you know, when all my children
[7:40]are long grown, and I am, you know, bored and looking for things to fill the time, maybe I'll
[7:45]write these other stories that are kind of outside of my job. So who knew? Who knew? Yeah,
[7:51]or the alien novelist waiting to come out the side. Maybe not actually as I think about it.
[7:58]It's really more like time travel. I have lots of time travel stories. You know, I feel like a lot of
[8:03]fantasy writers have so much to work with plot wise, like I feel very jealous that they're not
[8:09]strained by reality. I mean, you could play with all kinds of things and, you know,
[8:14]and twist people into all kinds of fun pretzels. If you have magic in your menu of options,
[8:21]actually, you know, I throw out aliens as the most kind of nutty idea that I could possibly
[8:26]mention, but I don't know that I have an actual alien idea. But who knows, life is long.
[8:30]Do you read romanticie? Like it's now, you know, taking off. What do you think about that?
[8:34]I'm some. Yeah, I mean, oh my gosh, I read fourth wing, last fall and like lost my mind.
[8:42]Crazy, like barn burner page Turner fun story that was I read divine rivals last year,
[8:50]which is, you know, it's like a love story, but with magic, like with a magic typewriter,
[8:54]which is like totally a sweet spot for me. So I do some of it and I like it, you know, also,
[9:00]I watch a lot of K drama's. It's having a lot of like magic and past lives and fun things going
[9:07]sort of all up and. So yeah, yes, I'm aware of this of the world, but the, but the actual
[9:15]books that I write kind of, you know, just have to like, people have to go to the grocery store
[9:19]and do stuff. The things have made that exciting. I mean, that's a good challenge. How to make
[9:25]that. That's like a writing class exercise. Okay. Have this trip to the grocery store,
[9:29]have meaning and intrigue and move the plot along. Oh my gosh. Actually in a romcommer's Charlie
[9:35]and Emma go to the grocery store sometimes. I mean, I didn't say that on purpose, but I've been
[9:38]really like does actually happen in this book. And they cook together. I mean, they'd just do
[9:42]sort of ordinary, but because they have such a like a spark with nature and because there's so
[9:49]much like sexual tension and energy between them. It makes even these sort of ordinary things
[9:54]kind of sparkle a little bit. So that's true. I feel like I remember like going to like
[10:00]crochet for the first time with like,
[10:02]someone you're starting at a relationship with,
[10:04]and it's like the most exciting thing
[10:05]because it has so much promise, right?
[10:07]Are we about to have a lifetime of grocery shopping?
[10:10]Like, you know, I feel so like domestic.
[10:12]And I don't know, I don't know.
[10:14]I, it's a great point of end.
[10:17]I totally agree with you.
[10:18]And I think that there is something so magical
[10:21]about falling in love, that it sort of makes
[10:24]the whole world just kind of shimmer with possibility
[10:27]in this way that it doesn't ordinarily.
[10:29]And so when I'm writing love stories,
[10:31]I'm always trying to capture that shimmer.
[10:32]Like, that's a, that's a really beautiful, special thing.
[10:36]And it, you know, it doesn't happen all the time.
[10:37]So when it does, I want to just like,
[10:39]jump for joy and celebrate it.
[10:42]There's writing love stories that help your own marriage.
[10:45]Ooh, that's a good question.
[10:46]I think my own marriage is already pretty great.
[10:50]So I don't know.
[10:51]I mean, we've been together a long time.
[10:52]We met the year after I got to a different college
[10:55]and that was in the 90s.
[10:57]And we, I don't know, I just kind of think
[11:00]my lucky stars every day that I wound up
[11:02]with this particular person
[11:03]because he's the funniest person I've ever met.
[11:07]His name is Gordon.
[11:08]He's a middle school teacher.
[11:09]He wears crazy pants to school to teach every day.
[11:13]He's got pants with flamingos on them
[11:15]and pants covered in flowers, pants with sharks.
[11:18]And you know, he's kind of like that teacher
[11:20]that all the kids love because he's a goofball.
[11:24]But he's also very good at getting them
[11:25]to do their stuff.
[11:27]He's kind of, my husband is like,
[11:29]if Jimmy Stewart and Bill Murray
[11:32]were like combined in one person,
[11:34]that would kind of be husband.
[11:36]So yeah, so I feel like I kind of like
[11:39]won the husband lottery or something with him.
[11:41]And so yeah, we have a lot of fun.
[11:43]And actually, but like I credit like a lot of the banter
[11:46]in the books that I write with the fact
[11:49]that basically for Gordon and me,
[11:51]there's like the Venn diagram of our interests
[11:55]is like kind of two separate circles in a lot of ways
[11:58]but they touch right at comedy.
[12:01]Like we are both funny and we both love to joke around
[12:04]and that's our main activity with each other.
[12:06]People are like, you should take up golf together.
[12:07]I'm like, we're just gonna joke around.
[12:10]So we drink coffee in the mornings
[12:12]almost every morning that we possibly can
[12:14]and we just crack each other up.
[12:15]Like that's the whole goal of the morning
[12:18]is to make each other laugh as much as possible.
[12:20]And so I think my, he keeps my comedy chops very sharp
[12:24]and he, and the bantering that happens in the story doesn't,
[12:27]like whatever those neurons are,
[12:29]they're very strong for me because that stuff
[12:31]is constantly exercise.
[12:33]Like, you know, I'm not really going for walks or working out
[12:36]but I am exercising my, my bantering.
[12:39]So yeah, we have a lot of fun.
[12:43]Yeah.
[12:43]That's awesome.
[12:44]The answer to the question.
[12:45]Yeah, that was great.
[12:46]Thank you for the peak inside your marriage.
[12:47]No, I feel like a baby that I'm like,
[12:49]tell me about your marriage, but I love it.
[12:51]I mean, I think it's so nice to hear about successful marriages
[12:55]and what the secret sauce is.
[12:56]I mean, that's what we all want, right?
[12:57]To be happy.
[12:58]So I have thoughts on that actually.
[13:00]And I'm glad.
[13:01]Well, I, so my nephew asked me to perform his wedding
[13:07]the last year, two years ago.
[13:09]And I, so I got certified online as a Reverend for $35
[13:13]and then I went to Colorado
[13:14]and I married this young couple to each other.
[13:17]And I had to do some thinking about it,
[13:19]but I decided that like, I think,
[13:21]I really think the trick to it all is,
[13:25]and this isn't me.
[13:26]I didn't come up with this.
[13:27]This came from John Gottman.
[13:28]This psychologist John Gottman,
[13:29]but it still create that culture of appreciation
[13:32]that he talks about where you just like notice
[13:35]what your person is getting right.
[13:37]You know, because there's so much
[13:40]that anybody who's not you will be getting wrong
[13:43]all the time, right?
[13:44]From loading the dishwasher to, I don't know,
[13:47]pushing in their chair the wrong way.
[13:49]I mean, who knows what it is,
[13:50]but this is kind of how we raised our kids too,
[13:52]was like noticing when people were getting things right
[13:55]and like calling their attention to it.
[13:57]I actually think Gordon's a great middle school teacher
[13:59]and I think part of the reason that he is
[14:01]is because he's able to kind of mirror back to the kids
[14:05]what they're getting right.
[14:06]Like whatever it is that's awesome about that particular kid,
[14:09]he sees it and he notices it and he appreciates it
[14:12]and he kind of mirrors it back to them
[14:14]and makes them aware of it.
[14:16]And they're something so encouraging about that
[14:18]until positive about that.
[14:20]And so he does that to the kids he's teaching,
[14:23]but he does it to me too.
[14:24]Like we're all just kind of blossoming under that sunshine.
[14:28]So for me, I think my parents are divorced.
[14:32]I did not come into marriage like super optimistic
[14:35]about the whole prospect of it.
[14:38]My vision of what that meant was not great,
[14:40]but he's so good at just like getting you
[14:43]and appreciating you and being grateful to you
[14:46]for like all the nutty sort of sweet things
[14:49]that you bring into the relationship.
[14:50]And the more I've watched him do that for me,
[14:52]the better I've gotten that doing that for him right back.
[14:56]And so it's just kind of been this weirdly uplifting
[15:01]sort of process of things just getting better and better.
[15:04]We've been together for a long time now
[15:06]and we have much more fun now than we did when we started.
[15:11]Deep thought.
[15:12]No, I love it.
[15:13]Oh my gosh, it's awesome.
[15:14]And it's doable.
[15:16]Do you know what I mean?
[15:17]Like you didn't say like you have to keep your marriage alive.
[15:18]You've got to climb Kilimanjaro, you know?
[15:20]Like you have to notice like what it is you fell in love with.
[15:24]Right?
[15:25]You have to like remember and be nice about it.
[15:28]And joke around a lot.
[15:29]That's our other big thing.
[15:30]Like there's a whole thing with them.
[15:32]I think in the literary world sometimes
[15:34]we really divide stories out into like tragedies
[15:38]and comedies like as if they are at far opposite ends
[15:42]of the spectrum.
[15:43]But that's not my view of it at all.
[15:45]That's not my life experience.
[15:47]I think comedy is like a coping mechanism
[15:49]that we humans developed because of tragedy, right?
[15:53]Because life is hard.
[15:55]Like squirrels don't need comedy
[15:57]because they don't know they're going to get run over.
[15:59]But like we know exactly how hard life is
[16:02]and all the suffering we're going to have to do.
[16:04]And have done we remember it.
[16:06]We can anticipate it.
[16:07]And so for me comedy is like a primary coping mechanism.
[16:11]And so for like for a funny book to be sad
[16:14]or sad book to be funny makes a lot of sense to me
[16:17]those two things are very much interwoven
[16:20]in my actual life.
[16:22]And so yeah, my books are both of those things.
[16:25]You know, they're funny and sad at the exact same time.
[16:28]And I think when I first started a thousand years ago
[16:30]writing, you know, writing these novels back in 2007
[16:35]there wasn't really a category for that.
[16:37]And I felt like people didn't really know what to do with it.
[16:39]Like what kind of book is it, you know?
[16:41]And I think there's more and more there seems to be
[16:44]a space for that in the book world.
[16:47]I'm grateful for it because it's immediate makes total sense
[16:50]that a funny book would be sad
[16:52]or sad book would be funny.
[16:53]Totally.
[16:54]Yeah, or intertwined.
[16:56]Yes.
[16:57]Highlight each other very much.
[16:59]That's awesome.
[17:00]I love this notion that you have a secret
[17:02]like private Catherine Center Goodreads
[17:05]like only on your computer.
[17:07]And by the way, thank you again.
[17:08]You were so nice about the last love note by Emma Gray.
[17:10]So I've seen what happens when you actually really
[17:13]love some things.
[17:14]So that was really wonderful to be tangentially related
[17:16]to that.
[17:17]Why keep it for yourself?
[17:18]Like why do it?
[17:20]Why keep a list of you said like you have private reviews
[17:23]on your own computer?
[17:24]Why?
[17:25]Because I, because in those reviews
[17:28]I'm really talking to myself, you know?
[17:29]I'm looking at the stories that I'm like every book
[17:32]that I read.
[17:33]I type a little paragraph or five or six
[17:37]about what I thought about it and like what I can learn
[17:40]from it really.
[17:41]And of course, you know, when you first start writing
[17:44]it's very easy to focus on what you didn't like
[17:47]about what the writer is doing.
[17:48]You know, you can, like of course we all do that.
[17:50]It kind of makes us feel good about ourselves, right?
[17:52]We're like, this person dialogue was so wooden
[17:55]and you can kind of enjoy that moment of feeling superior.
[17:59]But what I have found over many decades of doing this
[18:02]is that that's not particularly helpful.
[18:04]You know, you're never going to show yourself
[18:07]the path that you want to walk along
[18:10]by looking at what not to do.
[18:12]So the older I have gotten, the less I pay attention
[18:15]to what's not working.
[18:16]There's always stuff that's not working in people's stories.
[18:19]So what I've tried to train myself to do
[18:21]is to focus on what is working.
[18:23]Like even if I didn't like the book, right?
[18:25]Even if it was the same or whatever.
[18:27]For me, my experience of it.
[18:29]I'm always trying to think, but what was working?
[18:31]You know, what can I find?
[18:33]What can I learn from this?
[18:34]Like what were the parts that worked?
[18:36]Because there's always something that worked.
[18:38]So for me, that's why I write little private reviews
[18:43]to myself and it's because I want to be sure to notice
[18:46]what's working and I want to like pay attention to it
[18:49]and I want to study it sometimes or break it down.
[18:51]I mean, I'll type people's like whole paragraphs
[18:54]of other people's work and then like do a little
[18:56]close reading of like why is this working so well?
[18:58]Like what if I want this?
[18:59]Like how did this book hypnotize me
[19:01]in the way that it did?
[19:02]I mean, I do tend to spend much more time on books
[19:04]that I loved than on books that I didn't love.
[19:07]But if there's a book that I didn't love
[19:09]and I'm like, rural or that book was terrible
[19:10]and I feel insulted, then I will give myself this project
[19:13]of like, okay, go in there and find something
[19:15]that you can be excited about
[19:16]or something that you can learn from about it.
[19:19]So yeah, I mean, that's good advice for life in general.
[19:22]You know, that's good advice for writers is like
[19:24]find what you love and pay attention to that
[19:26]because that's the thing that's going to guide you
[19:28]to being a better writer.
[19:29]But I also think that it is good advice in human life
[19:32]as well to just look for what's working,
[19:36]look for what you can get excited about,
[19:38]look for what's great in other people
[19:40]and let that be the thing that guides you down the road.
[19:43]I mean, I think it helps you live a better life in general
[19:46]and have a better marriage.
[19:47]All of it, see the guide for you.
[19:49]And I am naturally like perky or positive either
[19:52]like I've had to work on this stuff.
[19:54]I think that's one of the reasons why I write about it
[19:56]and talk about it and think about it.
[19:57]Because it didn't, like my husband just naturally,
[19:59]like.
[20:00]arrived on this earth, cheerful and positive and hilarious. That was not the case for me.
[20:05]I was sort of grumpy and bitter in lots of ways, but I'm working on it. It's like a life
[20:10]project. That's a very fun life project. Well, I think that your private assessment of the good
[20:18]and the bad and the ugly of books would be so instrumental in helping other writers. I think
[20:24]maybe at some point, if you get desperate for a project, you could use and do a little writing
[20:30]manual or finding the good or put it on a sub-stack or something. That's helpful. I would like to
[20:37]see a breakdown of what's working in different books so I can copy it, essentially.
[20:43]That's how you learn how to do things, right? It's not by looking at what you didn't like or
[20:48]you can roll your eyes at. It's like, what does this person know that I don't know? That's how you
[20:52]get better. What are you working on now? Oh, I am, so my youngest child is about to graduate from
[20:59]high school in May. I'm the very same week that that happens. I am turning in my 2025 book,
[21:08]so it's been a bit of a crazy spring for me. It is a story about a woman filmmaker who has to
[21:18]write. I mean, who has to make a movie about a Coast Guard rescue swimmer. Those are the guys
[21:26]who jump out of helicopters with fins on and land and rescue people. She gets this job to go and do
[21:33]this documentary and it's kind of a disaster, but it's a good disaster. That's my favorite kind
[21:37]of disaster. It's a good disaster. I had to do a lot of research last fall with the Coast Guard
[21:42]and I went and hung out at Ellington Field at Air Station Houston and I got to meet all these
[21:48]very intimidating rescue swimmers and pilots. I was quite terrified to go down there,
[21:53]and they were all incredibly nice. My husband has been teasing me about it so much. She's like,
[21:58]what kind of research are you doing exactly like? Could you cradle me against your six pack so I
[22:03]can see what that feels like? I'm like, that's not quite the research now. It's different research,
[22:08]but it's a world that I don't know very much about. It's been really fun to take a deep dive in
[22:15]there. It also feels a little bit intimidating because I know I don't know very much about it.
[22:19]Deep dive, no pun intended. Or pun, maybe. Maybe is that what it's called?
[22:24]Deep dive. It is not called that. In fact, I keep changing the title. I've been kind of
[22:29]undecided on what the title of it will be, but yeah, it's going to be, it's already very sweet and
[22:36]swoony. Part of me wants to call it good-hearted man, but I don't know if that's really what it's
[22:40]going to wind up being. Well, if you want deep dive, I won't charge for it. Thank you.
[22:46]All right. Well, Catherine, thank you so much. Congratulations on the Romcomers.
[22:51]Well done. So exciting. I love your writing style so much. It's just awesome. And you're just such
[22:56]a pro. And now we know why. So thank you. Thank you so much. All right. Keep laughing with Gordon.
[23:03]Okay, bye. Thanks for listening to momstone have time to read books.
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