Read with Jenna's July pick! Chris Whitaker, ALL THE COLORS OF THE DARK
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast,
[0:06]Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel,
[0:13]Blake, and created a whole community of book lovers
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[0:20]a bookstore, and more, learn more at ZiviMedia.com
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[0:26]or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Chris Whitaker is the author of all the colors of the dark.
[0:35]Chris is the award-winning author of Tall Oaks, All the Wicked Girls,
[0:39]and The New York Times bestseller, we begin at the end,
[0:42]which we discussed originally on this podcast.
[0:44]Chris lives in the UK, and he will be at Zivi's bookshop,
[0:48]so go to zivisbookshop.com, so you can find the schedule and come see him.
[0:53]Welcome, Chris.
[0:54]Thanks so much for coming back on Momstone Have Time to Read Books
[0:57]to discuss all the colors of the dark.
[1:00]Congratulations.
[1:01]Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[1:02]I can't believe it's been like three years since I was at four years.
[1:05]No.
[1:06]Yeah.
[1:07]Well, it came out in the UK four years ago,
[1:09]so I think like three years ago in the US, which is mad, isn't it?
[1:12]You were my first at the US event.
[1:14]Oh, yeah, I did.
[1:16]Well, well, you've come so far.
[1:18]Look at what...
[1:19]Yeah, I have. I feel like I've aged like 10 years.
[1:22]Sorry.
[1:23]I actually can't believe that it's been that long.
[1:26]I don't know my sense of time these days is totally warped.
[1:29]I look up and all these people I interviewed in the beginning have new books.
[1:32]It's crazy.
[1:33]It's just crazy.
[1:34]Yeah, that's because you're the busiest person I think I've ever met.
[1:37]My whole life.
[1:38]I don't know.
[1:39]Yeah.
[1:40]How you do it?
[1:41]I need to like slow it down because time is too fast.
[1:43]Time is going too fast.
[1:45]Okay.
[1:46]All the colors of the dark.
[1:47]Tell listeners what it's a mad place.
[1:49]I'll give you the kind of top line pitch,
[1:51]which was my like few line pitch that I gave to my publisher years ago before I wrote it.
[1:55]And the book is about two abducted teenagers that fall in love in the pitch black basement.
[2:00]They've been held in having never seen each other.
[2:02]The boy escapes and then confined his way back to the girl.
[2:05]And the police, they believe that she's real.
[2:08]They think that because he was trapped down there for so long because of the trauma that he kind of conjured this girl out of his mind.
[2:14]And but he truly believes in his heart that she's real.
[2:18]And what follows is this lovely epic 27 year search for the girl for the missing girl.
[2:24]The love of this life and also for the, for the person that took them.
[2:28]Yeah.
[2:29]So it's a big like crimes sweeping love story.
[2:32]It is.
[2:33]That was a complete nightmare to write.
[2:34]Yeah.
[2:35]Tell me about the rating.
[2:36]It was really.
[2:37]So we begin at the end was my last book.
[2:40]And I'd started writing this before that came out.
[2:43]So I was doing PR for that and COVID happened.
[2:46]So it was like a complete nightmare.
[2:48]And we at the time I bought a house and taken the roof off the house and then COVID it hit.
[2:53]And then so we can get builders or anything to finish.
[2:56]So it's just raining into the house.
[2:58]And I was telling my, this book.
[3:00]Yeah.
[3:01]And I was working at the library at the time.
[3:03]So I was working three jobs.
[3:04]I wasn't a full term author back then.
[3:06]Because that my first two books didn't sell that well.
[3:09]And then we begin at the end change everything.
[3:11]But I was still working three jobs.
[3:13]So I was at the library.
[3:14]I was doing research for this book, doing PR for we begin at the end.
[3:17]and because of the time difference, UK US, I was doing like 2 a.m. events every night.
[3:21]I think I did like 100 events and put clubs and things.
[3:24]So it was like an endurance test.
[3:26]But I did love it.
[3:29]Everyone was so nice.
[3:30]But this time round, no COVID.
[3:32]So I get to come over for a tour, which is very exciting.
[3:36]Very exciting.
[3:37]Yeah.
[3:38]I feel like when we talked last, you had never been to the places you had been about, right?
[3:42]No, I've been to the US twice.
[3:44]I went to Miami when I was 21 and Florida and Florida again when I was a kid.
[3:48]The Disney World.
[3:49]But coming to New York when I saw you, that was the best.
[3:52]I'm like, in like 20 years or something.
[3:55]And that was to meet my new agent in the US.
[3:58]And to meet some of the team that I had worked with for ages, but never met in the flesh.
[4:03]So it was really cool.
[4:05]And I love New York.
[4:06]And I could live in New York.
[4:08]It's so cool.
[4:09]Oh, we'd be happy to have you.
[4:11]Yeah.
[4:12]I'd say on behalf of the city.
[4:14]I'm about a bit like something like a movie set or something walking around here.
[4:19]Everything feels giant.
[4:20]And I was just looking up at everything.
[4:22]Which is funny because I'm London from a city, but it's not New York.
[4:27]Every time I go out of the city, I feel like I'm in a movie.
[4:29]I was just saying that to Kyle, we were in Dallas.
[4:31]And we were like going through all these random, not random.
[4:34]That doesn't sound right.
[4:35]We were going through these small neighborhoods.
[4:37]And I was like, look, this is like the wonder years or something.
[4:39]It looks like a movie set.
[4:40]And he's like, this is actually how most people live.
[4:43]And your life is like the movie for them.
[4:45]And I'm like, no.
[4:48]I love the wonder years.
[4:49]I really watched it.
[4:50]I tried to really watch it with my kids a few years ago,
[4:53]but they had no interest in it whatsoever.
[4:55]But for me, it was like, you know, this is my childhood.
[4:58]Watching that shit.
[4:59]Me too.
[5:00]No, my kids need like a YouTube short for like 30 seconds.
[5:03]And even that's like, yeah, my 10 year old is just,
[5:06]he just doesn't stop looping things all the time.
[5:09]I'm sure it's not good for, you know, for his attention span.
[5:12]I'm really worried about it.
[5:13]I'm sure it's not either.
[5:14]I'm trying to limit it.
[5:15]But then then I have to be a parent instead.
[5:17]Instead of paying for a.
[5:19]Which is much harder.
[5:21]And I'm like, I wonder what he's watching today.
[5:23]Like, what is it?
[5:24]I don't know.
[5:25]Like, what is that?
[5:26]So, I don't know.
[5:27]I'm scared if that's the next history.
[5:28]I want to refuse to look at it.
[5:30]I'm so bad.
[5:31]I think I have some limits on there, but I'm actually not
[5:35]really sure.
[5:36]Yeah.
[5:37]I'm just wondering about developing the characters.
[5:39]And where did first of all, where did this idea come from?
[5:41]Aside from just being deluged by rain and feeling in a dark place yourself.
[5:45]It's a strange one actually, because I had,
[5:48]I had a bit of a crappy childhood.
[5:50]And the character of patch in the book was kind of based on some of that.
[5:55]So when I was in my parents divorce when I was really young.
[5:58]And like new people come into your life then they win this divorce.
[6:01]And I was in, I was probably about 10 years old.
[6:04]and I was in bed one night.
[6:05]And this guy just pulled me out of bed as my mom's partner.
[6:09]And we both heard my arm break.
[6:11]And it was really, yeah, it was really terrible.
[6:14]And then I didn't say anything.
[6:15]I told everyone it was an accident because I was worried about it.
[6:18]I was a bit scared of him.
[6:20]And it was a really difficult time.
[6:22]And so for that night when it happened,
[6:24]I just lay in bed with a broken arm waiting for the morning.
[6:27]So that I could get some help.
[6:28]And it was probably the longest night I've ever had.
[6:31]Like, ever.
[6:32]And I still remember it now.
[6:33]I still have trouble sleeping now.
[6:35]And have done since that night.
[6:37]I've had a life, so much sleep problems.
[6:39]I've tried everything.
[6:40]And I think my, like my subconscious doesn't let me relax.
[6:44]When it's dark and like when I lie down,
[6:46]even though I know I'm not in any trouble now or danger or anything.
[6:49]And so I look at that moment in my life of kind of like a sliding doors moment.
[6:53]You know, like when my life kind of diverged.
[6:56]Because I wasn't really the same after that.
[6:58]And some other stuff happened.
[6:59]He was quite violent.
[7:00]And I wanted to look at that in the book.
[7:02]I wanted to look at what happens when you're when you're a kid.
[7:04]And something, something terrible happens in your life kind of.
[7:07]Just takes a completely different turn.
[7:10]And I talked to you last time about when I was 19.
[7:13]I got stabbed.
[7:14]I was mugged and stabbed.
[7:15]And I think that that happened because of what happened when I was 10.
[7:18]I think because I didn't want to feel like a victim.
[7:21]I think I refuse to give my phone.
[7:23]My cell phone to this line.
[7:25]I ended up getting stabbed because I had this kind of this problem with stems from my childhood.
[7:30]And so I wanted to look at that in the book.
[7:32]And at the beginning of the book,
[7:34]Hatcher is the lead characters 13.
[7:36]And he's walking to school.
[7:38]And and he is a girl scream.
[7:40]And she's being abducted.
[7:42]And he without thinking he steps in.
[7:45]And he gets stabbed and then taken in her place.
[7:49]And so his life just from then on.
[7:51]You know, he's held captive meets the girl Grace who may or may not be real.
[7:57]And then sets out like bases.
[7:59]The rest of his life trying to find out about everything is different.
[8:02]For him, for everyone around him.
[8:04]And I used to find it quite fascinating.
[8:06]You know, this idea that there might like if you think back over your life,
[8:10]there might be an alternate version.
[8:12]It's like, you know, if you hadn't done something,
[8:14]if you hadn't got up on time for a job interview or something,
[8:17]you could be living a different life.
[8:19]And it's something so like seemingly insignificant.
[8:22]Or for me, it was significant.
[8:24]And I think that I possibly might have done better at school.
[8:28]And might have gone to university.
[8:30]And you know, just everything changes.
[8:32]And it's out of your hands.
[8:33]It's something that happens out of your control.
[8:35]And so that that that was the basis for this book.
[8:38]And it was really difficult to kind of go back there.
[8:41]Oh my gosh.
[8:42]Yeah, but where is it?
[8:43]I think it's I've been really nervous about this book coming in for the first time.
[8:47]Like probably been nervous about a book coming in.
[8:49]And I think it's because it's the best that I can do.
[8:52]that in the moment.
[8:53]And when you can't do any better if people don't like it.
[8:56]It's nerve wrecking, isn't it?
[8:58]You can't put yourself out there.
[8:59]I think it's going to be fine.
[9:01]I think people are going to love it.
[9:02]I think people are going to love it.
[9:04]I would not worry at all.
[9:06]Can you tell me more about this relationship?
[9:08]When did this partner come into your life with your mom?
[9:11]I think it was completely not her fault.
[9:15]And they were together for maybe a year or something like that.
[9:18]But I just remember not being able to tell anyone.
[9:21]You know, because he told me not to tell anyone.
[9:23]Like kind of threatened it.
[9:24]I don't say anything about it.
[9:26]And I remember being really worried about it afterwards.
[9:30]Was it just the arm thing or all of it?
[9:33]Like how about the arm thing and then like about a couple of months later,
[9:37]he burnt my leg with the cigarette in the we were in the garden.
[9:41]And he said that I'd bumped into it.
[9:42]But I know that I hadn't.
[9:44]I remember it cleared.
[9:45]I've still got a scar on my leg.
[9:46]And that was and then I remember keeping that quiet.
[9:50]You know, keeping myself covered, being worried that someone would find out about it.
[9:54]And then didn't talk to anyone about it until fairly recently.
[9:58]But like the sleep problem.
[10:00]has been probably the biggest hangover from that.
[10:03]Like, just, it's just dictated at 30 years of my life,
[10:07]just not being able to sleep properly.
[10:10]And I've tried everything,
[10:11]and sleeping pills work,
[10:14]but they're not great long-term,
[10:15]and you don't get the same quality of sleep,
[10:18]and I've tried sleep therapy,
[10:19]and it's just like the thing that's ugly.
[10:24]Have you tried, like, actual therapy?
[10:26]Like, cognitive behavioral therapy?
[10:28]Often, over my life,
[10:31]I've never kind of stuck with it long-term.
[10:33]I just find it really unpleasant,
[10:35]like, going back into it in detail,
[10:37]and I know that CBT probably would help, and I just...
[10:41]They have something for trauma called EMDR,
[10:44]something with your eyes.
[10:45]Yes, I know of it.
[10:46]Yeah, the eye movement thing.
[10:48]Yeah, that's next to my list.
[10:49]So, I'm like, I haven't done that.
[10:52]I wonder what that is, like.
[10:54]It's supposed to be really good.
[10:55]I know someone that did that,
[10:57]and she was, like, terrified of flying,
[10:59]and then she did DR, and now it's going around the world,
[11:03]for, you know, flying everywhere.
[11:04]So, clearly, there's something in it.
[11:06]Who is the first person you told about this man and when?
[11:10]My dad fairly recently.
[11:12]Really? Yeah.
[11:14]Yeah. It's mad, isn't it?
[11:16]Oh, that's so hard.
[11:18]It's so hard.
[11:20]But I kind of went into this book
[11:23]and had to make the decision.
[11:24]I sat down with the team, like,
[11:26]do I really want to do it?
[11:27]Do I want to talk about this stuff?
[11:28]But it's really hard not to.
[11:30]And then, could she kind of have to make something up?
[11:32]You have to kind of lie about it.
[11:33]Like, where did the book come from?
[11:35]I would have to fabricate something.
[11:37]And I think that's even harder in some ways.
[11:39]Is it hard, like, that you have to just pull that out
[11:42]and talk about it?
[11:43]Like, that just for a course of a podcast with me,
[11:46]now you're like delving back into the
[11:49]worst days of your life.
[11:50]And you're like, wait, I thought it was just a nice Thursday
[11:52]afternoon or whatever.
[11:54]I think this is cheaper than therapy.
[11:56]So I think you'll know my therapist.
[12:00]I think I'm okay with it.
[12:02]I think that the more you talk about something,
[12:04]the less power it has, instead of being this thing,
[12:07]that I'm kind of worried about and have been worried
[12:10]about for years, as soon as you put it out there,
[12:13]it's not such a big deal.
[12:14]And people go through way worse things.
[12:16]So I take some comfort in talking about it, I think,
[12:21]in not having to lie about it.
[12:23]And as well, because this terrible thing happened.
[12:25]And it never healed properly.
[12:26]Like, problems a few years ago,
[12:27]went back to the hospital.
[12:29]And they said that it just hadn't healed properly.
[12:33]So I still have pain in my left wrist.
[12:35]And it's really annoying.
[12:38]But I don't have any hatred towards him or anything like that.
[12:42]I just...
[12:43]I mean, I have hatred towards him now.
[12:44]Who is this guy?
[12:45]Let's get it, you know.
[12:48]Yeah, no, I don't.
[12:49]I don't even like the person that stabbed me.
[12:51]I barely ever think about them.
[12:53]I kind of separate the two things.
[12:55]It's really weird.
[12:56]Like, I remember the trauma of it,
[12:57]but I don't kind of remember it being personal,
[13:01]if that makes sense.
[13:03]That's very generous of you.
[13:04]Well, I think it's just for me.
[13:06]I think it's harder to hold on
[13:08]to like a kind of hatred.
[13:09]I think it does you more damage in the long term.
[13:12]You know, I don't really.
[13:13]I don't haven't hated anyone that I can recall.
[13:16]I imagine it's exhausting falling out with something,
[13:18]anything that I'm holding a grudge like long term
[13:21]and probably eats you up, I would imagine.
[13:24]Kind of like holding a secret for this long?
[13:26]Yeah, yeah, I think so.
[13:29]Yeah, especially with sleep
[13:31]because like people have always asked me,
[13:33]like, I can't use sleep, you know, what's the problem?
[13:35]And I've never been able to say why.
[13:37]But I specifically know why.
[13:40]And it makes sense, doesn't it?
[13:41]If something happens like that,
[13:43]when you're asleep, you kind of associate,
[13:45]even subconsciously sleep with being something
[13:47]that isn't safe to do
[13:49]because something bad might happen.
[13:51]Gosh, now I don't think I'm gonna be able to sleep tonight.
[13:54]You're gonna give sleep problems to everybody else.
[13:57]No, I think everyone's got sleep problems.
[13:58]No, I know.
[13:59]I already have sleep problems.
[14:01]Can you fall asleep and you just can't stay asleep?
[14:04]Or can you?
[14:05]I tend, so I do two different things.
[14:07]I do a really annoying thing
[14:08]which is where as I'm falling asleep,
[14:10]I start to awake repeatedly until I get so tired
[14:13]I focus live and then it will be maybe two hours later,
[14:17]at best four hours later, I'm wide awake.
[14:20]But I tend to do loads of writing and plotting
[14:23]and things in the middle of the night.
[14:24]So every flout.
[14:26]And I'm really useful, you know,
[14:28]when there's a newborn, I've got three kids.
[14:30]So I'm just awake.
[14:32]So I'm up anyway.
[14:33]I'll take the night shift.
[14:35]How did it go telling your wife all of this stuff?
[14:39]Not that this is any of my business
[14:41]and I'm completely praying
[14:42]so you can tell me just to stop.
[14:44]That's okay, tough.
[14:45]Yeah, it was, but I think there's a kind of relief, isn't there?
[14:50]You know, if you know something's bothering someone
[14:52]and then they finally open up about it,
[14:54]I think it brings peace to the other person as well.
[14:57]So, yeah.
[14:59]Oh my gosh.
[15:01]Yeah, I feel like I'm completely fine
[15:04]and I've written a book off the back of it.
[15:05]And so.
[15:06]Yeah.
[15:07]And I probably wouldn't be able to do that.
[15:09]Well, in the sliding doors, where do you think?
[15:12]I mean, what do you think?
[15:12]I think you would have been a writer no matter what.
[15:15]This is who you are.
[15:16]I don't know.
[15:16]Yeah, I don't know.
[15:17]I dwell on that all the time.
[15:19]I only started writing because of trauma
[15:22]after being set up, you know, I did writing as therapy.
[15:25]I wasn't academic at all or did terribly at school.
[15:28]I sometimes can't.
[15:29]I can't quite believe that I write books.
[15:31]It's a weird thing because it's quite creative, isn't it?
[15:34]You know, and it's like quite arty
[15:35]and this just doesn't feel like me
[15:38]and people always say to me, like there's a disconnect,
[15:41]which I think is an insult.
[15:42]They say there's a disconnect, it's with books.
[15:44]All right, and me in person.
[15:47]That's not a bad strategy.
[15:49]I've had that so many times.
[15:51]Really?
[15:52]I just can't have many times, yeah.
[15:53]People say they just can't marry the two of them.
[15:56]So I don't know how to take it really.
[15:58]Probably not, well.
[15:59]Yeah, so when you were writing this,
[16:04]did you, like, what was that, like, emotionally?
[16:08]Right, you're going into these scenes.
[16:10]You're, but of course fictitious characters
[16:13]and putting yourself in a very dark place,
[16:15]which is emblematic of how you felt anyway, right?
[16:19]So what are those, were you physically,
[16:24]like I feel like sometimes when I go back
[16:26]to things that were upsetting to me,
[16:27]I sweat sometimes, or like something like physically,
[16:30]I feel like when I'm writing, do you feel it?
[16:33]What does it feel like?
[16:34]I do.
[16:35]Yeah, especially the, say the basement scenes in the book
[16:38]because it was very much like going back to that time.
[16:42]You know, like lying awake at night being in pain,
[16:45]not being able to ask anyone for help.
[16:47]And it just feels like time stops still.
[16:50]And so that's what it's like for patching the book,
[16:52]but he's held down there for a long time.
[16:54]And so, you know, it's time does stop still for him,
[16:57]but it's just, I don't know, I feel like we need the light,
[17:00]you know, in the morning, you know,
[17:02]to wake us up and to remind us that the new day is begun
[17:05]and to let the old day go back.
[17:07]And if you don't have that, it really messes with you.
[17:09]But emotionally, I found those parts difficult,
[17:12]but then there's a whole other strand of the book,
[17:14]which is a love story.
[17:16]And, you know, there's characters that bring,
[17:18]that bring kind of humor to the book.
[17:21]And so whenever, whenever it got too hard,
[17:23]I don't write in order.
[17:24]So I'll switch around and then put everything together
[17:27]at the end, but if ever it got too hard,
[17:28]I would switch and write something else,
[17:30]I didn't part of the book differently.
[17:32]Wow.
[17:33]Yeah, so that worked.
[17:34]They got me through it.
[17:35]And what do you want readers to take away
[17:37]from the book at the end?
[17:38]I think the overriding message is that,
[17:42]you know, your kind of your own story is yours to write.
[17:45]You know, it doesn't matter if something terrible
[17:47]has happened in the past or something,
[17:48]you're still in control.
[17:50]And I think that, you know, when someone goes through trauma
[17:53]or something bad happens, particularly when you're a kid,
[17:55]you feel like you have no control.
[17:57]And it's a horrible feeling.
[17:59]And so this book was partly about taking back control
[18:03]and just reminding myself, I think,
[18:05]and readers that it doesn't matter where you've come from,
[18:10]where you're going is completely up to you to decide.
[18:13]I bet you're going to help so many people.
[18:15]I bet you don't even know how many people you're going to help
[18:17]because they're not even all going to tell you
[18:18]and you're just going to have this big.
[18:20]No, I'm serious not to overplay it,
[18:23]but I'm hoping, I mean, I think it's really going to be
[18:26]life-changing for people.
[18:27]That's very nice to hear.
[18:29]I hope so.
[18:29]I hope so.
[18:30]I have to write people who find it, discover it.
[18:32]Yeah, I hope so.
[18:33]I never have like a bigger, bigger dream for it
[18:36]than just entertaining people.
[18:38]I'm going to enjoy the story,
[18:40]because there's a lot of books to choose from, isn't there?
[18:42]And so I think it's kind of a privilege when someone picks up
[18:45]yours and you want them to not regret it.
[18:48]But it's just, so that's why I'm even fourth here.
[18:50]Don't try to get your money back, please.
[18:53]Do not return me to the store and say this is terrible.
[18:56]He wasted my time.
[18:59]Oh my gosh.
[19:00]How are you working on another book now?
[19:02]I'm working on a book called Timekeeper,
[19:05]which is a complete, it's an outright love story.
[19:09]And I can't give the picture of it yet,
[19:11]but it's, there's no crime in it for the first time ever.
[19:14]So I'm moving out of kind of crime and mystery
[19:18]for the next book.
[19:20]And what inspired that?
[19:21]Just an idea I had first needed a break.
[19:23]Yeah, I had this idea for it.
[19:25]And it was just looking at the concepts of time
[19:27]and we all feel like we don't have
[19:30]enough of it, don't we?
[19:31]So it was just, it was looking at that.
[19:33]And it's a bit kind of time-travelous wife meets
[19:36]the four when our stars kind of makes,
[19:39]if I was to pitch it at the moment,
[19:41]but it'll probably be with you in about 10 years.
[19:44]So the writing says that.
[19:45]It's great.
[19:46]So, yeah.
[19:48]I mean, the idea that I'm still
[19:49]going to be sitting at this desk in 10 years,
[19:51]having a, like maybe I need at least something.
[19:55]There's something comforting in that.
[19:56]For me at least, then if.
[19:58]maybe I could at least, like, move over into that.
[20:00]out of the river. I don't know something. I'm like, are we making progress if we don't
[20:04]move? If we stand the same place? Is there we get it?
[20:08]I really love the book that you're publishing, that you sent me the undercurrent.
[20:12]Oh, good. Yeah, you did.
[20:14]On that note, it's so good. She's so talented. The writing in it. Oh, really brilliant book.
[20:21]Yeah, thank you for saying that. Yeah, she's an English teacher named Sarah Sawyer. And
[20:25]this is her first. Yeah, she's a real talent. Oh, so well done. Well done for
[20:29]snapping her up. Oh, thank you. She'll love to hear that. Wonderful. What advice
[20:34]do you have for aspiring authors? I always feel fraudulent giving advice because I think
[20:40]it's I still haven't got to grips with how to do it properly. You know, the whole writing thing.
[20:44]I think it takes twice as long as it should twice as hard as it should be. But I would say be fearless.
[20:51]You know, like it's just, yeah, just really tell the story that you want to tell and don't worry
[20:56]about who it's for. I don't worry about trends or how it's going to be published or anything.
[21:01]But those are the last things I ever think about. I just think about, you know, character is king.
[21:06]If people relate, if you relate to your characters, if you enjoy writing them and spending time
[21:11]with them, then I think other people will too. That's great. Character is king. Oh my gosh.
[21:17]Well, I'm so excited for you. Congratulations. Just so excited. And thank you for sharing
[21:23]on such a personal level. Some of the darkest days of your life. And, you know, I think the world
[21:29]sounds so hokey. But I do think the world would be a better place if we all could do that.
[21:35]Like imagine if we just knew, if we knew the darkest things about each other, you could write
[21:39]this novel next. Right? If there was some way that we all knew and we could see when people
[21:44]would be nicer to each other, do you think? I think so. I think so. Certainly more compassionate.
[21:48]You know, there would be less judgment and less people are very quick to judge on that.
[21:53]Yes. And I think there will be a slightly more understanding, which would be nice.
[21:58]That would be nice. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for taking the time. And I
[22:02]hope that the roof is now solidly over your house. And that at the end of this, perhaps you will
[22:07]find a way to get a good night's sleep. Bingers crossed. Thank you very much. Just crossed.
[22:12]Hi, Chris. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Two moms don't have time to read books. If you
[22:18]you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social at Civi Owens and at Civi Readers.