Now a Netflix series! Holly Smale and Jeff Norton, GEEK GIRL

[2:05]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I am also a newly minted USA Today bestselling author of the novel, blank and created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at zibbymedia.com, or follow me on social at Zibby Owens, or join the community Zivvie Readers. Jeff Norton and Holly Smale are here with me together to discuss the novel Geek Girl, which was just made into a fabulous number one series. Jeff Norton is an acclaimed author and executive producer for television. His books include the award winning thriller franchise Meta Wars, the comedy adventure Grounded at Groom Lake, which by the way Jeff was already on this podcast discussing a couple years ago, and the new swashbuckling Dino Nights chapter books. He is also the originator and co author of the bestselling Princess Ponies franchise by Chloe Ryder. In television, Jeff is the originating executive producer of Geek Girl on Netflix based on the best selling novels by Holly Smail, the supernatural drama The Small Hand based on the best selling novel by Susan Hill, and the hit preschool show Truck Town based on the New York Times best selling picture books by John Skieska. Jeff studied film and commerce at Queen's University Canada and earned his MBA from Harvard Business School, where, by the way, we were in the same class and became friends and have stayed in touch, that's how he's here. Holly Smail is the internationally bestselling award winning author of Geek Girl and the Valentine's Teen series, which have sold 3,400,000 copies worldwide and have been translated into 30 languages. Her debut adult novel, Cassandra in Reverse, was the June pick for Reese's Book Club and BBC Radio four Book Club, and she is the cocreator and cowriter of Geek Girl, a top three hit show on Netflix around the globe. In January 2021, Holly was diagnosed as autistic at the age of 39. Suddenly, a lot of things made sense. Holly regularly shares, debates, and celebrates neurodiversity on Twitter and Instagram hollsmale, h o l s m a l e. Welcome, Holly and Jeff, for our two for one episode here today to discuss Geek Girl, the series, the TV adaptation, the whole thing. We're so excited to have everybody here together. And I will I will have already read your bios, which I'm cutting out of this part, just FYI. Okay. So, anyway, so welcome. Thanks so much for coming on Mom's Snow Time to Read Books.

[4:40]Holly Smale: Thank you so much for having us.

[4:44]Zibby Owens: So explain your relationship to people who don't know and how the two of you teamed up on your project for Netflix.

[4:52]Jeff Norton: So I'll start, Holly, and then you can chime in if I've gotten anything wrong. So we've known each other for a long time, not quite as long as you and I have known each other, Zippy, but quite a while. And both Holly and myself, our debut novels came out at the same time back in 2012, 2013. And so I was very aware of Geek Girl and I had read the book as soon as it came out because it burst on the scene in The UK and then globally. And then maybe, I want to say, Holly, seven years ago. Is it seven? I think it's seven. Yeah, was trying to do the maths. Yeah. I approached Holly and asked if she would do me the honor of letting me try and get her books and bring Harriet Manners, her lead character, to the screen. Because Zibby, as you know, I split my life between writing books and also putting together TV shows. And Holly trusted me with that and through thick and thin and ups and downs and all sorts of

[5:47]Holly Smale: trying to move this creative boulder up the hill, we finally got there. But it's been, I think about seven years, Holly. Yeah, I mean, it has. It was a long time, wasn't it? And then, yeah, I mean, the story is exactly the same is that, you know, we'd just come out, I think, of options with another company because GeekGun had been under optioned since it was published, you know, when it sort of went out into the big, into the wide world. But nothing had really happened. So I think by the time Jeff approached me, was like, Oh, not again. I'm totally going through this. But I just really liked him. And like my general life ethos is just kind of go with my gut where possible. And, you know, Jeff's a really good, great guy. So, yeah, I was just like, I trust him. And it was a trust that paid off, I think.

[6:29]Zibby Owens: You know, it's funny. They give publishing such a hard time for being slow. And yet, look at how long it took to get this made. You know, I think Hollywood has

[6:39]Holly Smale: somehow escaped that wrath. I don't know. Feels faster or something. But Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah. I think TV and also TV has changed so much, Jeff. I mean, I know Jeff will know more about this than me, but over the when the books came out in 2013, like, the TV just wasn't where it was at that point. All the big, big shows haven't really kind of cemented themselves in sort of worldwide culture. So it still felt like a very movie based place. And I think that has really changed in the last decade. And that's, a really good thing for me because I always wanted TV because I was always just a big fan of those stories that you can expand and make bigger than just a movie. But yeah, I think that shift has maybe left a few things that

[7:21]Jeff Norton: needed a bit longer to get made. One of things I remember you saying right at the very beginning is that you had been approached by numerous parties and invariably almost all of them wanted to take Harriet to The US. They wanted to Americanize the entire story universe. And, you know, you've said, I it's really important to me that it remains authentic, that it remains British. And that's, you know, that's something that we committed to right from the very, very beginning. And, you know, I think the idea of staying authentic to the character and staying authentic to the story that Holly had created, I think that's ultimately why we're able to get this made.

[7:58]Holly Smale: And, you know, the whole story really is about being your kind of authentic self. You know, I think staying true that right from the get go has stood us in good stead, even though it took a long time. Yes. Yeah. I think, you know, that's something really beautiful about that. Know, the ethos of the books is always, you know, kind of be proud of who you are and stick to your guns and, you know, be yourself. I love that the team behind it feels the same way and has kind of approached the project, as Jess said, in exactly that way, which is, you know, if it's authentic and then it will be right. So yeah, I'm really glad because I just didn't feel right about making Harriet American. Just you know, she's based on me as a teenager and I don't think it would've yeah. It would've felt a little bit weird to be Watching somebody

[8:42]Zibby Owens: it was so fun. I can't speak for all Americans, but I will say that the glamour of the British accent and the British, you know, that where was it? The Tate Modern where the fashion show was or some I mean, it was so cool. Right? It's escapist and glamorous, but in a way we haven't seen here. Right? So I think it was that's huge. Selling point, in fact. But, Holly, talk a little bit about the inspiration for the series and when you started writing it and how you have felt now about this it's blowing up ridiculously over the years. Yeah.

[9:18]Holly Smale: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. The Geek Gar ride has been a bit of a roller coaster generally over the years. Yeah. I've wanted to be a ride since I was tiny, since I was like four years old. I'd written this really massive, very serious adult novel, but will never stick a light day because it was terrible. And while I was sort of like feeling very defeated by that, my friend said, why don't you write about when you were a teen model? And I was like, I think I can do better than that. I've got a Masters in Shakespeare. So I was incredibly snotty about it, but she dared me. So I went home and sat down and it was like two thousand and eight Christmas and wrote, my name is Harriet Manners and I'm a geek. And I said this line and just thought, this is the story I'm supposed to tell. And it's not, it's got modeling in it, but it's really about how I felt as a teenager where I was felt like I didn't fit in and that I just would do anything to be like everyone else. And, you know, the troubles I'd gone through at school, but kind of with a sort of comedy, fairy tale, aspirational spin to it and this kind of loving yourself message that just felt really, important. And Harriet is me as a 16 year old. The only difference is she's not a writer or anything. That's the only thing that I changed. But yeah, the books just kind of blew up out of nowhere. No one expected them to. I was a debut, no one knew who I was. And so that was an incredible ride, especially in The UK. When we came to do the TV, we just wanted to do something that felt like that it was fun and fresh and real and authentic. But we didn't, I mean, I can't speak for Jeff, I can't speak for anyone else, but I was like, this will probably just be a tiny little show, you know, people, that a few people like, who liked the books and probably won't reach that many people. And then, yeah, it's number three in the world right now. So it's just for the last few days going, what? Like, what? So, it's been amazing. Incredible. Harriet just keeps giving.

[11:14]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. How does that feel, Jeff? I mean, know you've done so many projects and already had so much success, but still that's gotta feel good. It

[11:23]Jeff Norton: feels amazing. And I think incredibly validating as well, right? The process itself, as we talked about earlier, takes a long time, but also it's one that's always filled with rejection, right? We tried to get this set up multiple times, banged our heads against the wall until they were bloody. And it took a long time to put the pieces in place to finally find other people who believed in it as much as we did to kind of get this train on the tracks. And so to have it be so well received is incredibly validating. I think the other thing that is validating is, you know, Harriet Manners is a very, very specific character. As Holly said, it's loose you know, it's sort of loosely based on on on her, not that loosely even. One of things One of the things that I always believed about Harriet and about the books is that they were actually incredibly universally appealing. What I mean by that is Harriet, everybody feels like an outsider and Harriet is an outsider. And I think, you know, it's not just the story of a teenage girl who becomes a model or it's not just a story of somebody who's neurodiverse. It's a story of somebody who doesn't feel like they belong in in their life and and figuring out how to be their best self. And I think that's universal. I remember reading the book so many years ago, Holly, and feeling like, I feel like Harriet Manners. And I think I think the the show has been so widely received because everybody actually deep down feels that way. And I think that's that that's creatively, that's incredibly validating is that people have just sort of seen themselves

[12:59]Holly Smale: in this incredible character and in this incredible story. Yeah. It's amazing. And I think as well, like, there was so much joy. Just, you know, when we first sat down, Jeff, I remember like talking about like, what do we want this show to be? And it was like, we want this to be joy. And, you know, there's a line in it where it's there where Nick tells how it joy spreads, it always does. And for me, the cast, the crew, everyone working on the show, from the actors to the directors, single person was bringing it to it. It's kind of just this fun, this sort of silliness, this good warm heart kindness. They were just bringing this amazing energy on set. And I think that that is what has touched so many people. They can kind of sense it coming through the screen. It's like, this is coming from a good place. This is coming from a place from good people who want to spread joy. And, you know, I think that's special. And it's, you know, it makes something that, you know, could have been seen as niche actually, as Jess said, appealing to everyone.

[14:01]Zibby Owens: Wow. And Holly, talk a little bit more about your neurodiversity and how the book actually enabled you to be diagnosed and all of that.

[14:10]Holly Smale: Yeah, it's all very meta. So as mentioned, Harriet is to me as a teenager. And my main goal when I was writing the book was that I couldn't see people like me in books. So I was like, well, you know, then I'll just write it if I can't find it, you know, is that Toni Morrison quote. My focus was on why do I feel different? I'm trying to express those differences, you know, in the many different areas of my life that I struggled with. And there was kind of an elephant in the room. I didn't know the word for. I was like, I'm trying to explain this. And in a way it worked in terms of I didn't know what I was trying to explain. I didn't do it in a cliched way because I was just trying to be honest. Then the books came out and people started coming up to me and going, Harriet's autistic, you know that, right? And I'm like, What? No? What? Is she? And I was like, No, no, of course she's not, because I'm not, that would be crazy. And then the National Autistic Society messaged me and was like, You know she's autistic. And I was I was quite rude and dismissive and of said they were barking up the wrong tree. And then as the messages got started getting more and more frequent and I was struggling more and more of my personal life, just, during lockdown, I just had a lot of time to think and a lot of time to, you know, meltdown privately. And I suddenly thought, you know what, I think it might have been on the money. So I went down that process and yeah, fully autistic, also dyspraxic. So everyone who's like, oh, she's so annoying, she falls over so many times. And I'm like, not as many as I do actually.

[15:37]Zibby Owens: I can't get through a doorframe without smashing into it. Wait, can you explain dyspraxia to those who don't know what it is? Yeah,

[15:45]Holly Smale: it's mostly famous for being the clumsy neurodivergency. It's basically very simply from a physical perspective where you can't really control your kind of muscles and neurons, there's something going on there that sort of slows that down. Can't pick up a pen without focusing on it intently. Like I drop things, I break things constantly. There are other elements that go on with, you know, like ability to read maps and all that kind of thing, but it all gets a bit technical. So yeah, I didn't know I was dyspraxic either and I've got that diagnosis as well. Yeah, when I was writing it, I was just trying to express how I'd felt. And, you know, I came onto the neurodivergency scene relatively late at the age of 38 And suddenly had all these answers to the questions that I'd been asking for literally my entire life. And it was mind blowing. It just, yeah, it changed so many things for me. And it really, you know, writing Harriet made me love myself more. And I think that she is that special character where she, you know, she didn't just touch other people's lives. She also touched mine and she changed the way I saw myself, which is, I just think it's beautiful thing. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[20:01]Zibby Owens: So then how does it feel to watch your younger self? And we always talk about, you know, what would you say to your younger self? Like, you have that person sort of dancing around on set. So how do you feel? How does that feel? And, Jeff, how does it feel knowing that you've sort of recreated this, you know, not only a character but a person at a different stage of life and, you know, one who has changed so many lives? That's a big responsibility to depict that correctly.

[20:26]Jeff Norton: Yeah. It really is a big responsibility. And I have to, you know, give a shout out to Emily Carey, who is the lead who plays Harriet. She's just absolutely incredible and embodies the character. And, you know, Harry's a lot on her shoulders. But one of the things I think that's really incredible is that, you know, we deliberately in the series, though Holly later in life has been diagnosed and we didn't wanna do that in the series because that young version of Holly, Harriet Manners, hadn't yet been diagnosed. And what we didn't wanna do is make this a show about autism. We wanted this to be a show for everybody and there is going to be a journey and those who know clearly can see it. And I think one of the things, and Holly, you and I were joking about this the other day, think that every GP in the country or I suppose the world, their phones are gonna be lighting up because I think a lot of people are gonna see themselves, particularly young women in Harriet and be like, oh, oh, it makes sense now. And I remember one of the things that you told me a while ago was when you got your diagnosis, it was like all of a sudden your life just made sense.

[21:36]Holly Smale: And I think that's a really, really powerful thing that we're able to do for the audience. Yeah, it's like a light going on. You're suddenly like all these things that you hate yourself for. And, you know, although Harriet finds so much self love at school, it took me a little bit longer. You know, so it isn't an autobiography. She is me and I was a model when I was her age and all of that, but it is fiction. I'm a fiction writer. Like, you know, I oversee fictionalize it, it took me longer to find that level of self love. And my diagnosis did help with that. And as Jess said, we really thought along and hard about how we were going to approach that in the show because the reality is when you're autistic, you you don't always want a show about that. We're humans who have lives and loves and friendships and you know, we want all of that stuff. We don't want to be separated out into that's an autism story because we're just humans getting on with it like everybody else. As my experience as an undiagnosed teenager, it was really important to all of us. Think that we show that because it is the majority, I think eighty percent of teen girls are not diagnosed. So, you know, it is the majority experience that we wanted to show. So, yeah, I'm really and it's been it's been it's been accepted so well by so far Touchwood, the autism community who've just really like just embraced it and said, you know, that they feel reflected and seen and valued.

[22:53]Zibby Owens: It's amazing. Yeah. And not to put you in any position of being any type of mental health expert because you've written a novel and, you know, we can't do that. But if there are parents who are listening and eighty percent of teenage girls are undiagnosed, is there something parents should maybe see as a a wake up call or something that maybe they should check out more that you wish people had noticed about you?

[23:18]Holly Smale: I think to be honest, I mean, it's not one characteristic, it's an entire neurology. So, you know, I think if it seems to be lighting up a bell somewhere, do some research, look into it a bit more and you'll start to see, okay, this is not for me or, okay, this is starting to feel familiar. So, you know, I'm definitely not kind of a doctor or a psychologist or anything like that. I'm just speaking from my own experience. But yeah, I think it's, you know, and what I really, really, really hope is that the show goes a little bit further into just making everybody love everybody. Like we don't need to have these kind of stereotypes and taboos and like, you know, we're all just wanting to get on and be happy. So that's the sort of the lasting message, I think, is just let everybody be themselves.

[24:04]Zibby Owens: I mean, one of the themes in the book and the show really is about friendship and the different forms it takes and loyalty and, you know, all of that, which we're all dealing with at any age, at any neurology, neuro whatever. It doesn't matter. Right? You know, you get something a friend wants, and how do you handle this? And, you know, all of that.

[24:24]Holly Smale: And it matters. You know, like, saw it somewhere, and it was described as low, low states, which I thought was really interesting. So I was like, yeah, wonder if that's because it's a female based show, because the things we're dealing with like friendship and love and identity and of the things that, and family, and all the things that I would argue are the most important thing in most of our lives, they don't feel those stakes to me. They feel like they're high stakes. They are the things that matter, especially when you're that age, when you're 16 and you're working out who you are. So, you know, I do think that it's a show that hopefully is tackling, you know, things that matter, but in a very joyful light way, you know?

[25:04]Zibby Owens: Well, have to tell you, as I was watching the show and there's the one scene when Harriet is is desperately trying to reach her stepmother and her father and the father's just like, you know, doing air drums on the couch listening to music and the mom is, I don't know, bringing in fresh director something. And nobody was picking up the call. I literally just, like, reached over to my phone, and I was like, turn ringer on. You know? It's like, here I am watching TV. Know? It's so easy. I feel like I'm always missing calls from my kids now even though I'm, like, trying to be available all the time. But, I kind of saw that from the parent point of view as well.

[25:38]Holly Smale: Yeah. And that family, I know, like when we spoke early, very early in the process, Jeff, we were both really keen on making sure that family, so in the books, the family is a very strong kind of bond. And, you know, that's something that sometimes does get overlooked in sort of teen dramas because it's almost like, get rid of the parents, they're boring. And we've just felt like, you know, a lot of us have, you know, families that we love and want, we want to share that experience.

[26:04]Jeff Norton: Yeah, I think that was quite an early conversation, wasn't it, Jeff? Yeah, absolutely. And I think I think that's one of the reasons why the show has been so successful is it's not just a teen demographic. You know, it was really important that the adult all of the adult characters were fully formed. They all have their own lives. They're I I always like to say everybody's the star of their own movie. So every single character, you know, Richard and Annabelle in particular, they're going through all sorts of things. I won't give any spoilers, but they're going through all sorts of things in their marriage, in their lives, in their relationship with Harriet, in their relationship with one another. And I think it's really important to reflect that back to the audience that it's real. And if that's low stakes, listen, we don't need a bank heist to make amazing films. I think that's life. And I think that's one of the things that people have really responded to is that we're holding up a mirror to people's lives. Now it's a fun house mirror, right? Because you know, it is a rom com, it is a comedy, it is wish fulfillment, is a Cinderella story, it's all of these things. But it is a fun house mirror to everyday life. I think people cherish that, particularly in these times where everything is just so fraught and can feel really negative. To put joy back into the world is a good thing. It's amazing. And I mean, only been out a few days and I, not even a week yet, and I've had so many messages

[27:23]Holly Smale: from people of all ages to be honest, saying, you know, I've had a really rough day. And one of them was like, I just had a really rough day and I've been crying for two days and I watched your show and I got up and felt like 100% better. So just felt like, you know what? I can do this. I love me, so I'm all right. And those kind of messages, you know, they mean like the world, you know, because, yes, of course, you want to appeal to readers of the books that have loved them for a long time. You want to appeal to new people, but what you want to do is like reach people and make a difference to just their day, to be honest. Like, even if it makes them laugh when they're feeling a bit low, like that's enough for me. I'll take it. So, you know, I think it's I just think bringing out something that's joyful and fun is just, I don't know, it's a good feeling, isn't it, Jeff? It's a great feeling. And I think for the folks who are listening, are parents,

[28:10]Jeff Norton: because Zippy, you and I are both parents of children of roughly the same age, One of the things that I think is also missing out there that we're providing is something to watch together. I often struggle to watch something with my 14 year old that isn't cringe, that he's not gonna be embarrassed, I'm not gonna be embarrassed, or it's totally inappropriate. And I think putting something out there that parents and young people can watch together, giving that gift of time precious, I think, because there's just not enough of that time together. And if it's quality time on the sofa watching a great show that you can do all together as a family,

[28:48]Holly Smale: I just think let's bring it on. There should be more of that. Totally. Special, honest. I mean, I have a niece who's seven and we're very close. And it's the first time I've been able to watch anything with her where, you know, we're both watching the same thing and she was gripped. I mean, I mean, she now looks at me with a lot more respect than she used to. I was just the auntie who wore pajamas all the time and she's got in the house. But you know, it's, yeah, it's been, it was gorgeous just sitting there with my niece who I love more than anything and just watching her little face while she was watching the screen because she's seven and you know, she's still dealing with stuff at school and all that kind of stuff. Just watching her face light up at, like, the really lovely bits and and get really, like, mad at the bits where she was like, it was just lovely watching her go through that journey and being able to go through it with her. Yeah. Because as Jeff said, it is for everyone, essentially. And I think that's that's pretty that's something pretty remarkable.

[29:41]Zibby Owens: I actually recently watched a couple of weeks ago 16 candles with my kids. Have you ever I hadn't watched it in decades or anything, but it it is that same sort of on the outside. Right? This is like the new 16 candles, if you will. Right? Trying to be accepted, trying to feel seen. Yeah. I think we've got a song from 16 candles in Geek Girls. Yeah. We've got we've got we've got an we've got a really fun Easter egg for the John Hughes fans.

[30:07]Jeff Norton: I won't I won't spoil it because people wanna discover it, but you're absolutely right. I mean, there is, you know, that we talked a lot about those sort of eighties rom com John Hughes films in terms of, you know, the the the different perspectives of the teenagers. And again, that idea of feeling feeling like the outsider, because I think that is it's a very teenage thing, but I honestly believe it never goes away. You know? I I know that we we now have the phrase imposter syndrome, but I think honestly, I think everybody has that for their entire life. And as Holly said, they're just we're all just people trying to get on. And I think the show really captures that in a really loving, joy joyful way.

[30:46]Holly Smale: Yeah. Just warm hearted. Yeah. I think that's it. Warm hearts is the key. Amazing.

[30:52]Zibby Owens: Entertainment with a heart and a purpose. It's perfect. Right? Yeah.

[30:57]Jeff Norton: And hopefully, it brings people back to the books as well. Mean, I think that's other thing is, you know, we're we're all three of us are authors and and Holly Zibby is a a fantastic author in her own right. So nice. And I think, you know, one of the things that I always try and do with with projects that I do because they're all book based is if you can create that virtuous circle where maybe somebody didn't know the Geek Girl books, but now they discover the show and they can go back to the books or maybe Holly discover Cassandra Complex.

[31:24]Holly Smale: Yep. Which I think in The US, it's called Cassandra in Reverse. Yes. Yep. Right? Call Cassandra in Reverse in The UK now as well. We've we've shifted it. Switched it. Gotcha. Was a Reese's

[31:33]Zibby Owens: book club pick. That's huge.

[31:35]Holly Smale: Oh my gosh. That's the biggest thing ever. I know. I got that phone call. I got it after I missed it. I got back from running, which I almost never do. And I had like 15 missed calls. And I was like, nothing. This never happens. And I was like, I should go running more often because I feel like,

[31:50]Zibby Owens: know, good things happen when I do. I'm going to go for a run now. Just hear it back. Let's see what happens if I actually go for it.

[31:57]Jeff Norton: Yeah.

[32:00]Zibby Owens: Jeff, do you have any more books of your own coming soon or what are you writing right now? Yeah. So I'm deep I'm deep in editing on a chapter book series.

[32:10]Jeff Norton: It's I guess it's targeted at at sort of seven to nine year old boys. But again, everything I do hopefully is for everybody, but it's really fun. It's called Dino Knights, and so it's the third book in that series, and it's medieval knights on the backs of dinosaurs. Kind of does what it says on the tin, but it's just swashbuckling fun. So I'm deep in the line edits on that right now. Amazing. I think Harriet would be obsessed with that book.

[32:33]Holly Smale: Know, has to be like the ultimate.

[32:38]Zibby Owens: And what about you, Holly? Are you writing anything new or editing new things?

[32:43]Holly Smale: I'm just coming to the edit of my second adult book, which is yet untitled. Well, I've got a title, but I see if it's been approved yet. So, yeah, that's that's coming out next year. So it's it's not a sequel to Cassie, but it has the same feel to it. So, yeah, it'll be like a high concept romance, comedy romance, which is kind of what I do, basically.

[33:01]Zibby Owens: So great. Well, it's so wonderful. I'm so glad the two of you have teamed up and found this great partnership, which I'm sure will just continue to be wonderful. And I'm so excited selfishly to have a new show and a new series to give my kids, watch with my kids, and all of that. So thank you for Thank you. All of it. Thanks for coming on. Thanks. It'd so great to see you. Great to see you too. Bye. Bye. Bye, guys. Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social at Zippy Owens and at Zippy Readers.