Celebrate the American experiment with Charles Kenney, AMERICAN SYCAMORE

[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.

[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats,

[0:20]a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow me on social at Zippy Owens or join the community at Zippy Readers.

[0:31]Charles Kenny is the author of American Sycamore, a novel. Charles is the author of four novels and many non-fiction books, largely focused in the healthcare field.

[0:40]He serves as the chief journalist at Northwell Health, the largest integrated health system in New York.

[0:46]And, fun fact, he is the brother of John Kenny, who has been on this podcast several times, and his book We Are Publishing with the Zippy Books, and that is called I See You've Called in Dead.

[0:57]Anyway, this is his brother, Charles Kenny, and this book is beautiful.

[1:00]Welcome, Charles. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss American Sycamore. Congratulations.

[1:08]Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. And thank you for doing all of what you're doing, Zippy.

[1:15]It's crazy that this massive effort that you have been able to organically create this, this universe that it's just, it's a what it was really needed and you filled this need.

[1:31]And I think it's great because, you know, ignorance is the enemy in writing and reading and helps in so many ways. So thank you for doing what you're doing.

[1:43]I appreciate you saying that. And I'm so glad. So your brother, John Kenny, as you know, has been I've been such a fan of his for a long time and delighted to be publishing his next book.

[1:55]So that is just so exciting. And now having read your book. I see some similarities, but you're both so good in different ways. And I'm like, what did their mom do?

[2:07]Like, how did what happened or their dad? Like, what happened over there? How do I do this to my kids?

[2:14]It's funny, you know, we grew up in a house with Irish Catholic household in Boston and we were very Catholic and back I was born in 1950. And so I was in Catholic schools for from age 5 to 17.

[2:31]I had nearly enough therapy to get get over part of that. Not quite enough, but there were six boys in the house and so mom was busy.

[2:42]She was a mother who didn't have time to read.

[2:47]You know, it was a nurturing environment. And it was great. My father was a was a reader. And I think we got that from him. So now.

[2:59]And this is nuts earlier. I interviewed somebody who's one of 12 and today now one of six. This is great that 18 kids between the two of your families. It's pretty nuts.

[3:09]Well, you know, 12 wasn't uncommon in our neighborhood in the neighborhood we lived in in Boston. You know, everybody was cops and firemen and city workers.

[3:18]And I don't I I guess they didn't know how the reproductive thing worked or what I don't know.

[3:24]You know, the she ends up the street had 13 and it was not that calm.

[3:29]Yeah.

[3:30]That's that white reviews.

[3:35]Okay, your novel American Sycamore. Can you tell readers what it's about and how you came up with the idea for this book when you decided to write the book all that.

[3:45]I had written three novels years ago.

[3:48]And they're kind of mystery type things and I like doing it. But it was ultimately not something I wanted to continue to do.

[3:58]And I'd always wanted to write a character driven novel.

[4:03]And I didn't really think I was capable of doing that of stepping up a couple of levels to do that.

[4:10]And I thought that was for other people. And a lot of years went by and a lot of things happened in my life, some of them good, some of them bad.

[4:20]And during the pandemic, I just sat down when evening and started writing.

[4:25]You know, it's one of these crazy things that authors say, well, the, the, the story started writing itself or the characters dictated where I took it.

[4:35]That was in part true. I wanted to write about the Boomer experience or the experience of, of, of, of educated boomers who cared a lot about who came of age during the civil rights demonstrations during the anti war demonstrations who were committed to use their privilege and their education to make the country better

[5:01]and a lot of tough things happen on the way. And, and I want to explore that the personal side of it for me. I lost, we lost our son in 2012. He was a remarkable young man graduated from Brown.

[5:18]And, and commissioned as an officer in the Marine for the next day. Very liberal guy politically, but wanted to really believe that people that the privilege of going to private high school.

[5:31]Brown University, that sort of thing should should serve the country. And so that was a, you know, you think about that every day. And I wanted to deal with that.

[5:42]I think if you're a writer or at least a part of it is you use a writer. When stuff happens really huge stuff happens in your life.

[5:50]Part of the way you deal with it is by writing about it and, and that's what I did. I also created these three characters.

[5:57]I really came to love and it sounds crazy. But they were pure inventions. I use some of my own experiences prostate cancer, the loss of my son, these sorts of things as plot items, but these characters came out of who knows where.

[6:14]And I really grew to love them. And so it was a very joy. It was a hard experience, but it was a very joyous experience. And so I really, I'm really happy. I did it.

[6:23]And my characters are incredibly real, like very, very real. I felt like I also came to know them and their friendship with Ray and all of their beliefs. I mean, you don't, you're not afraid to go there with places and things and maybe unpopular things that people are thinking or just.

[6:43]around part of the narrative. And let me just back up to say, I am so, so sorry about your son. And the way that you wrote about not only losing the son in this book, but even JJ and his loss talking to the father.

[7:02]All of that was, you know, this was like a hold hold your heart book. Do you know, like, so poignant, so emotional, the way you wrote about it and incredibly powerful. So I'm sorry. I'm so sorry for your loss and anyway.

[7:18]Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that. And thank you for mentioning JJ JJ. There was a small event recently and I did a reading and I read about JJ.

[7:29]You know, all the 300 pages or 200 pages, whatever the I love JJ and I love the story of JJ and and so Ray, the character who you alluded to is the Dean of the medical school trained as a position in Boston and then went off to Vietnam.

[7:48]And was saw what was going on and tried to save all these children, as he called 19 year old 20 year old Marines and JJ becomes in the novel and enormously important symbol of what we lost.

[8:04]You know, we lost our soul and and and JJ was emblematic of that as was JJ's dad so thank you so much for mentioning that it really.

[8:15]I love that part of the book. I love that part too. Did you have someone? Did you have a doctor come to you or did you just make that up? He just made it up.

[8:24]Yeah, clearly invention. Yeah, I read a lot of Vietnam books back in the day. There was a great Michael for book called dispatches, which was really a magnificent achievement. And then there was another book by I think it was Philip Caputo, a rumor of war.

[8:45]Those were kind of I read those books over and over again and you really got a sense of and of course I had friends who were in Vietnam. I was lucky enough.

[8:55]When our entire I remember when our entire family sat around the radio to listen to the draft numbers and I was lucky to get a number that kept me out of Vietnam. My mother. I remember I remember mom crying when I got the good number and this.

[9:13]Those are really crazy times and one of the things that happens in the novel as you well know when that I really wanted to explore was this idea that these boomers these these people and particularly Rob who's the constitutional lawyer.

[9:29]There's the belief in America is just profound and Rob is teaching this class of new students incoming freshmen and privilege kids who have been chosen to go to Harvard and it's just he's thrilled.

[9:50]And so he's talking about what to him are the great kind of moments constitutional moments in America.

[10:00]in history and he talks about Brown versus the Board of Education where the court said no separate

[10:05]but he talks about the Gideon versus Wayne Wright nine years later 1963 where the court says

[10:15]by the way we don't care whether you have no money or not you are entitled to a lawyer in court

[10:21]and he just robbed just loves that this guy wrote his appeal to the Supreme Court

[10:29]in pencil one paper provided to him in prison in this case is heard by the court

[10:37]and so he's enormously enthusiastic and suddenly he looks around the courtroom and there are these

[10:43]students and they're saying to him but professor it's about 1619 now that's all ancient history

[10:52]we want to talk about the reframing by the New York Times of the origin story

[10:58]and Rob has just blown away by it had no sort of sense that that had become this

[11:05]this thing and he bristles and he pushes back hard you're not going to tell Rob that the American

[11:14]origin story isn't about the enlightenment and about the founders seeking freedom and

[11:21]this idea that it was about slavery really so and I think a lot of aging boomers had had an

[11:28]enormous amount of trouble with that kind of thing and that's why you I think you see so much sort

[11:34]of reflexive response to to wokies and you know you what you're saying to this generation of people

[11:43]is no no no no you got it wrong you got it wrong you think you have a great credential from the

[11:51]60s and 70s for being against the war and demonstrating in favor of civil rights but the history

[11:59]has passed you by and that's a tough thing for them to try to cook them and I think it's a tough

[12:05]thing for a lot of people in of my generation to cope with because we thought we did have the

[12:11]credential that indicated we've done the best we can as a generation to try to make America better

[12:18]to try to uplift people and now the story is not so much of that at all.

[12:24]Well I for one have not read this in contemporary fiction before this reaction to the

[12:32]almost entrapment of words right there's the scene in the beginning where Rob has asked

[12:40]what he thinks about the 1619 1619 1619 yeah sometimes I get numbers I'll screw it up 1619

[12:50]thing and he's busy and he just quickly responds and that's used against him and I don't want to

[12:55]give anything away towards the end where he you know gets his due basically but he's just marveling

[13:00]at how quickly someone's reputation can be destroyed like 40 years of work and you know enthusiastic

[13:10]people fighting for something different can just take people down is it's happening all the time

[13:15]and you know I think it's really great to point out you know is this fair is this not fair let's

[13:22]discuss it let's think about it because it is what's happening and I don't know I think it's

[13:28]really important that you put it out there yeah I really felt it's an important part of the sort

[13:34]one of the themes that's really mattered and I haven't as you say I haven't I've read very

[13:41]little about that in fiction you know there's obviously tons of nonfiction but you know

[13:47]fiction gives you an opportunity to explore that stuff and I'm in a much more nuanced way I

[13:52]think in a more interesting way and because much more personal when you introduce to readers

[13:59]these characters about whom you hope they come to care and in some cases come to love

[14:06]and and I really liked exploring that and and and I liked the recognition by these older white

[14:17]males I think is that the term we're using now the older white males I've heard about the

[14:22]the record by them you get the Harvard president sitting there and they say you know the kids

[14:29]you know these kids are great you know they got a lot of this stuff right and they'll figure it out

[14:33]so yeah well also the generosity that comes towards the end and I you know I won't discuss the

[14:43]details but that was a really interesting way to handle that and very yeah just the generosity of that

[14:50]was was notable and also speaks volumes I'm being so cryptic because I don't want to give a lot

[14:56]of this stuff away but you could have taken that in a whole different direction and that was a

[15:00]really interesting way yeah well I'm so glad you mentioned that simply because originally I did

[15:06]take it in a whole trip to run and as I was revising it I realized that it was very ungenerous

[15:15]and that Rob is now in a position where he's exonerated for lack of a better term and

[15:25]it's not who he is to be on gems and I felt I owed it to him this is how crazy I am that I

[15:34]but I know him and think about him but a fictional character but I really felt I owed it to him

[15:40]to do what is really in his character and in his nature and it's funny I got a call from one of my

[15:52]closest friends I get one of the first copies of them called me was furious absolutely furious

[15:59]you could have gotten those girls from the crimson this is a porcelian club guy okay this tells you

[16:08]you're right so he was head of Hasty Pudding actually president Hasty Pudding and he said

[16:14]you should have gotten those girls from the crimson and you let them off the hook and I said well

[16:20]that's that's Rob's nature so yeah well and Ray also and fighting for and the whole with the

[16:28]medical field and what he is willing to do there I mean there's a virtuousness to all of the

[16:34]characters in a way right wanting to do good despite everything when it's it's brave there's

[16:42]it's a brave bravery to it yeah thank you I think they are brave characters and I I love them for

[16:48]that I love what Ray does when he says look when we actually Ray Ray's point of view is based

[16:57]someone on a friend of mine who ran a health system out in Seattle I got him Gary Kaplan a physician

[17:03]a wonderful guy and his bedrock belief was when we make any kind of mistake here and we make mistakes

[17:11]it's called the genumase in health system in in Seattle when we make mistakes we have an absolute

[17:16]obligation to announce that to the world and to educate other health care provider organizations

[17:24]on how to fix it and so Ray is a believer in that notion and I think I think that belief is

[17:32]has spread and I think more and more organizations do believe that but I needed a plot element

[17:40]for Ray's kind of untamed rage that he went to Vietnam as a kind of incredibly together person

[17:53]and he leaves Vietnam with this rage that can't be extinguished and it's shown in all kinds of ways

[18:00]his own kind of reckless behaviors and his his inability to to calm himself without help

[18:11]and one of the things I I liked about sorry there's a terrible thing for an author to say one of

[18:17]the things I like about my book no it's fine I love it so it is how they how the three of them take

[18:24]care of what I know I was going to say that next was the friendship and the support and the

[18:29]unique funds that they all have so I'll say it if you don't want to say it yeah no thank you for

[18:35]saying it I love the image of the three of them Robin is wife Julia and Ray sitting in the

[18:42]in those Adirondack chairs in the in the garden and it's kind of where everything happens

[18:48]and so much of so much of the support and love that they have for each other because it's a love

[18:56]story really ultimately it's really to me it's a love story among these three people married

[19:01]couple and their friend and they sustained one another and I think one of the the most powerful

[19:08]images is when Robin Julia have just lost their son and Ray knows and he knows right away that

[19:16]he is the one who is going to have to hold them up and he is there and they are crying in his arms

[19:22]and he I mean it is just breathtaking yeah thank you yeah I love Ray for that and and that was in

[19:32]Ray's nature and he is a seer in a way he knows what's happening he knows where things are going

[19:38]any he knows exactly how to take care of his friends did you did you have a friend how did you get

[19:44]get through that loss in your life did you and your wife have a friend like that yes yes several

[19:50]friends like that who you know they you're drowning you're in the ocean and you're drowning and they

[19:56]reach out and they they're

[20:00]excuse me. And, you know, the love story extends in our

[20:06]lungs to the very, very close friends who were there for us and

[20:12]you know, in the worst times. And yeah, it's, it's, it's

[20:16]a, they help you survive literally. I think survive is, is

[20:22]the right word. And, and in surviving, you find a purpose,

[20:27]and our purpose became keeping our son's memory alive at the

[20:31]school. The boy's school, he went to outside of Boston,

[20:35]and that's a really big part of our lives now and will be

[20:39]forever. So yeah, these friends, you know, there's friendship,

[20:43]there's close friendship. And then there's the deep love of

[20:47]people who, people you're attached to, hard to heart,

[20:51]and we're very fortunate to have a few of those.

[20:55]Tell me more about your son. Charlie was happy, I would say

[21:00]every day of his life. Except the day he did not make the varsity

[21:05]hockey team at the moment. It's cool. As a sophomore, he cried,

[21:12]came home and cried. But other than that day, he was happy, positive,

[21:17]optimistic, smart, incredibly engaged with his friends. When he

[21:23]made the whole school varsity hockey team the following year, that

[21:27]was the happiest day of his life. I was like, he wanted to make

[21:31]people happy. He wanted to include people. And he did that. And you

[21:35]know, these private schools, sometimes they're not always as

[21:39]welcoming as they could be. And he made sure that everybody was

[21:43]welcome. And it really mattered to him greatly to embrace and

[21:48]include everyone. And he loved his sister and protected his

[21:54]sister. He loved his mom, like just they had the greatest

[21:59]relationship. And he was a really good human being. And he wanted

[22:03]to do really important things. And he got exactly what he wanted

[22:09]as his military occupational specialty, ground intelligence,

[22:14]which enabled him to be an infantry officer to lead an infantry

[22:18]to platoon or to lead a ground intel platoon or to lead a

[22:23]scout sniper platoon. So he's very accomplished in the Marine

[22:28]Corps. He's trained for several years. And he was ready to deploy

[22:33]to Afghanistan with his team. And he came back east to visit his

[22:38]girlfriend and her family in Bethesda, Maryland. She was a

[22:42]year. She was a year behind him at Brown. And he loved her

[22:47]and her family. And they're great people. Part of those one of

[22:52]those friends who's helped us. And he was going to come home to us

[22:56]that day for a couple of nights and before he shipped out. His

[23:01]base was in 29 Palms, California. So he was going to leave us

[23:04]going to 29 Palms and then ship out. And you know, as you can

[23:08]imagine, as a Marine Corps officer, 25 years old, he was in the

[23:12]best physical condition. You could imagine, but I think called my

[23:16]ocarditis struck his heart. And he passed away. And you know,

[23:20]was shocking beyond shocking. And yeah, I'm so sorry. It was great

[23:25]man. He was great man. He made the world a better place.

[23:30]Sure. Thank you for telling me about him. Yeah. I love it. You know,

[23:36]it's a very funny. I'm really glad you asked me because 90% of

[23:39]people when they find out because when people say to me, do you have

[23:42]children? I say, yes, of course. We have a daughter who's 33 and

[23:46]we have a son who passed away when he was 25. And that usually

[23:49]shuts down the conversation because understandably, people feel

[23:53]very awkward. But I'm not going to not mention my son. You know,

[23:57]and very rarely do I get the follow up question, which is tell me

[24:01]about your son. But it's my favorite question. And he was a

[24:05]riot. He was funny as hell. And, you know, he's loved for his

[24:09]mother and his sister and for me and his friends. He was, he was

[24:14]captain little cross team at Brown. No one had more fun playing

[24:18]with Ross. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, he was great. He was

[24:23]awesome. He was amazing. How old are your kids? I have twins who

[24:27]are about to be 17 boy and a girl. Wow. And my son also plays

[24:32]hockey. He's a goalie. He's a goalie. Yeah. You pour things

[24:38]to be. And I spent thousands of hours and ranks from the time our

[24:45]son was six to the time he was graduated from high school. And

[24:50]the goalie's parents were always the ones waiting on me

[24:55]had to rip nervous as could be. Oh, you poor thing. But it's

[25:01]isn't it the most fun you can have going to these places. I love

[25:04]it. I mean, I wouldn't mind like an outdoor warm sport. But yes,

[25:09]he did. And then I have a nine and ten year old as well. But

[25:13]that's so great. So how did he become a goalie? I think he just

[25:18]like was really tired. He kept like laying down on the ice. And

[25:21]then he realized if he was in the net he wouldn't have to move.

[25:24]Not even kidding. I don't believe it. No, it's true. Oh, my

[25:29]gosh. Charles, I could talk to you all day. Your book was so

[25:32]good. And yeah, it was I really hope people read it and read

[25:37]it slowly and take it all in because there's a lot in here. And

[25:41]yeah, and most of all, there's a lot of love. So thanks to the

[25:45]people who appreciate you doing this with me. I really appreciate

[25:49]what you've said about my novel. And I just want to say again, I'm

[25:53]so grateful as are many others about what you are doing in creating

[25:59]this remarkable organization or series of organizations and, you

[26:05]know, kudos to you. It's it's hugely important in our society. So

[26:09]keep going. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Take care.

[26:14]Thanks for listening to momstone have time to read books. If you

[26:19]love it, please leave a review and follow us on social at city

[26:23]Owens and at city readers.