Finalist for The Women's Prize for Fiction, Claire Kilroy, SOLDIER SAILOR
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
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[0:31]Claire Kilroy is the author of Soldier Sailor, a novel.
[0:35]Claire is also the author of All Summer, Tender Wire, and The Devil I Know.
[0:41]She was awarded the Rooney Prize in 2004, and has been shortlisted for many other prizes,
[0:46]including the Irish novel of the year and the Kerry Group Irish Fiction Award.
[0:50]She studied at Trinity College and lives in Dublin.
[0:53]Welcome Claire, thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Soldier Sailor.
[1:01]Thank you for having me.
[1:02]It's my pleasure.
[1:03]I have to say Claire, this book came in the mail.
[1:06]I mean, I requested it, but anyway, not like you just like showed up.
[1:09]But anyway, it came in the mail, and I started reading it like in the kitchen,
[1:13]like often when I'm opening the mail, I just like opened the first page,
[1:16]and I found myself like still standing there.
[1:18]Like I have been hour later, and I was like, I cannot read this right now.
[1:22]Oh my gosh, but I couldn't put it down.
[1:24]So anyway.
[1:25]Thank you for saying that.
[1:27]So tell listeners what Soldier Sailor is about, please.
[1:31]It's the preschool years.
[1:33]There's no plot.
[1:34]There's just a mother and her.
[1:36]He starts as a baby by the end of it.
[1:38]Sailor is the baby.
[1:39]Soldier is the mother by the end of the book.
[1:42]Sailor is he's coming up on about three or four years old.
[1:46]And really, it's just a mother speaking to her infant boy,
[1:51]and telling him about those years that you don't remember anything when you're that age.
[1:57]So, you know, you were there, but you have no recollection of it.
[2:02]And it's Soldier telling Sailor how it was for her.
[2:08]Kind of explaining certain things, certain stressful occasions that came about
[2:15]and why they were so stressful or so difficult for her.
[2:20]Well, above all, it's a love story.
[2:22]I love that.
[2:23]You really take the reader right into the stresses, the like sleep deprived panic of new motherhood in a very sort of literary arresting way,
[2:34]where you wonder sort of will I go on the street now or ever again?
[2:39]Or is this life tell me a little bit about writing this and how it came about what inspired it and all that?
[2:47]It's my fifth novel.
[2:50]But the other four novels have been published, it seemed quite slow.
[2:54]Each one took three years, which seemed like a slow process until I got to motherhood and I realized it's a constant state of interruption.
[3:01]So, there's an 11 year gap between white fourth novel and Soldier Sailor my fifth.
[3:07]And really, like some people say, I took a break from writing, which I so did not.
[3:13]I was trying, it's a thing of how do you do two things at once?
[3:18]And women were told we can multitask, which is just not true.
[3:22]Apparently, we can shift focus very quickly, but shifting focus doesn't ease a novel into the world.
[3:29]A novel is all about focus.
[3:31]So, I was trying all the time and failing all the time to put this book together.
[3:38]And it wasn't this book that I was trying to write because I was trying to access my old self.
[3:43]And that's largely what this book is about is how, when you become a parent, the old you is erased.
[3:50]You know, it's to be a self.
[3:52]You have to think about yourself and who you are.
[3:55]And when you have a child, that thinking time is just gone.
[3:59]You know, which is its nature, it's meant to happen.
[4:02]So, when I did try to write this book, and I wanted to write one of my old books,
[4:07]but there was nothing there other than this intense relationship I have with,
[4:13]he was two when it became clear I'm going to write a book about being a mother.
[4:17]All I was, was this woman speaking to her little boy.
[4:21]Because that was my existence, was talking to him.
[4:26]And, you know, thinking about him and also lamenting the loss of the woman I used to be.
[4:33]Because she was a writer and I'd always wanted to be a writer.
[4:37]You know, it's not a job you're given, it's a job you fight for and I fought and I got it and I was thrilled.
[4:42]So, it is a lament for lost self, lost youth, but it's a story of love, but also rage, resentment.
[4:51]And trying to, you know, put that on paper.
[4:53]I mean, when I started writing, I just would sit there and cry.
[4:57]And you only have a short window.
[4:59]You know, you drop your baby to the crash.
[5:02]And I'd come back and I was like, write a chapter.
[5:05]And I'd just sit there and cry.
[5:07]And all I'd like, I love you.
[5:09]I love you so much.
[5:10]I'm really sorry about everything.
[5:11]I love you.
[5:12]I love you.
[5:13]I love you.
[5:14]Cry.
[5:15]It came out of this emotional plane that I had never encountered before.
[5:20]And never knew I would exist on.
[5:23]Because, you know, I was a writer.
[5:25]I really brought, I had ideas, I had thoughts and plots and all of this going on.
[5:29]And suddenly all I was was love and rage and confusion.
[5:37]I kind of very interrupted person.
[5:39]So I suppose that's all, because of all I was, that's all the book is.
[5:44]And that's all I could write was you and me.
[5:46]Here we are.
[5:47]We're doing this.
[5:48]And this is what it feels like.
[5:49]It's just a book about fields.
[5:51]You know, about feelings and about how everyone says it.
[5:54]Oh, you won't know yourself about the love.
[5:57]You don't.
[5:58]You know, and it's very hard to dramatize an emotion like love.
[6:02]And that's what I was trying to do.
[6:05]Right that this has brought into my world of love that will outlive me.
[6:09]That is so beautiful.
[6:11]Well, I hope it will because you want your love to infuse your kids.
[6:15]You know, you wanted to outlive you to help them become happy people,
[6:20]will feel people.
[6:21]So it's important to infuse them.
[6:23]Do you feel that the love of people who have passed away stays on?
[6:28]Because I feel like, you know, like my grandmother, for instance,
[6:31]she loved me so much.
[6:32]I felt that love all the time.
[6:33]It was a safe space to always call and everything.
[6:36]And part of her loss is the loss of the love that used to come that way.
[6:42]Do you know what I mean?
[6:43]It's not just the loss of the person.
[6:44]It's the loss of the feeling that she could put out.
[6:48]But when she was gone, I didn't feel it being put out anymore.
[6:52]I absolutely do.
[6:54]And it's funny, the older I get, the more.
[6:57]And I just turned 50 last year and it seems that I'm only growing up now.
[7:02]It's more I understand these bonds.
[7:04]And they can never be replaced.
[7:07]You know, this is all we have is now.
[7:09]So once it's over, it's over.
[7:12]Therefore, try and forge those bonds and reinforce them.
[7:17]You know, turning 50, I was trying to explain this to a friend that, you know,
[7:21]I wanted, it was, I was looking at my friendships and, you know, what I wanted in the future.
[7:26]And he was saying, oh, you're going to have a call.
[7:28]And I went, actually, it's the opposite.
[7:30]I want to try and stay connected with the ones I love.
[7:34]You know, because it's all we are is these links between us.
[7:39]Yeah, it's very, it's just very strange.
[7:40]You think you know it all, you're middle aged, but you don't.
[7:43]So what else is going to surprise me?
[7:46]I thought middle age would be at all.
[7:48]What did you think it would be?
[7:49]I'm kind of comfort, safety, knowledge, security of who you are.
[7:54]You know, when you are a kid and you look at your parents and they seem to know everything and be built
[7:59]with massages.
[8:00]And then when you're the parent.
[8:02]It's like you're making it up as you go along.
[8:04]You are and you're hoping to get away with it.
[8:07]So I had taught you kind of get into a rush.
[8:10]I'm ever going to my GP when I was by GPs, your doctor, your general practitioner,
[8:14]your family doctor.
[8:15]I'm going, I was maybe 25 and starting out as a writer,
[8:19]having had a very turbulent work situation before.
[8:22]And remember him saying your problem is you're not in a rush.
[8:25]When you're in a rush, you're going to be fine.
[8:28]You can get in and be in the cozy space.
[8:37]But then that's what you do want to be in a rush.
[8:39]No, I don't.
[8:41]Do you?
[8:42]Interesting.
[8:43]Well, it's like when you're in a rush and like I do feel like I'm always fighting against time.
[8:49]I mean, don't you feel like now that you are aware of that it makes you feel that time pressure?
[8:55]Yes.
[8:56]And also that you're wasting a lot of the time.
[9:00]Yeah.
[9:01]It's only seen such a privilege to be on this green earth.
[9:04]And I never thought of it that way.
[9:06]But as soon as another part of the village is you realize you're saying goodbye as well.
[9:12]You know, you're no longer on the upward slope.
[9:15]Maybe not the downward slope.
[9:18]But like you've learned that you're not immortal.
[9:21]And you're going to have to say goodbye to whatever this is, this life we have.
[9:25]I mean, God, at times, it's very pain.
[9:27]You know, it's not like I've gone around going to wow.
[9:29]This is just amazing.
[9:30]A lot of the time it's a drag, but when it's over, I'll be very sad.
[9:34]You know, and I will miss those behind me.
[9:37]And in answer to you talking about your grandmother, yes, you need your grandmother.
[9:41]You know, and I need my child and my, I didn't have that link with my grandmother.
[9:46]But it's quite sad that actually young people have died in my life.
[9:50]And that I cannot get my head around the fact that they're gone.
[9:55]Because they were younger than me.
[9:57]When was my cousin who died at 30.
[10:00]nine when was this one of the school mothers who died at 37 and one was my dear friends five
[10:05]year old who died suddenly and I can't understand it and the grief she and her family are
[10:13]going through. I don't know how long before I understand what she's going through that
[10:18]a child can be gone. You know, it's such an inversion of the laws of the world.
[10:24]I mean, it's it's horrific. I have a friend who lost a child too and she posts about him all
[10:28]the time and I think it's her, you know, it's how she's trying to keep him alive. You know,
[10:32]I think it makes some people feel uncomfortable and I'm always like liking because I'm like,
[10:37]oh my gosh, she looks so cute there. Because I think a lot of times people who've lost kids or
[10:42]anybody, they just want to keep, you know, to your whole point of keeping love alive, right?
[10:47]They just want to like keep that going in some way shape or form. You know, absolutely because
[10:54]they can't forget him because they still have the love for him and I don't know whether your
[10:58]friends tell us a little boy or a little girl, but that little boy or little girl wants always
[11:04]to be loved and never to be forgotten even if they are no longer with us. So the parental role is
[11:09]to love and keep loving even if their child is gone. It's very strange. Yes. Oh, it's so tragic.
[11:17]and I'm so sorry about your cousin and your mom friend and I know it's when you've lost people
[11:25]and you realize it's time is short. That's when you have to, you know, kick it into high gear if you
[11:30]will. Yeah, my goodness. This has become a very, I'm sorry. Yeah, but it makes you think about what life
[11:37]is and yeah, don't apologize. I think about this stuff all the time. You know, it's nice to chat
[11:43]about it. But people are frightened of us. Yeah, of loss anyway and of acknowledging somebody else's
[11:51]loss. So I have learned, as you say, with your friend to like hosts, my friend has suffered from
[11:59]people not knowing how to acknowledge her loss. So it's really important to say, I'm so sorry and
[12:07]to keep saying it. It's true because then they have the added thing of like all their friendships being
[12:13]weird. Yes. Yeah. So just talk about it. Say it. Yeah, until I feel like until you've had
[12:21]lost sometimes, you don't know what you just feel so uncomfortable in it. You know, and then as soon
[12:26]as you have some, you're like, Oh, okay, this is what I can say and do, which is not necessarily good.
[12:32]Well, there's people have written books about what to say to someone who's grieving. So, you know,
[12:38]people who are bereaved have written books. True. Yes. And I have found them really helpful to read.
[12:43]So I know what to do. Yes. There is no math. I've had a lot of those others on this podcast.
[12:49]Like, tell listeners, what should they say? Yeah, grief is mortifying in a strange way to those
[12:59]who are not bereaved. You know, you are at a loss yourself. So if there is some sort of template
[13:05]that can help someone grieving readers and and you can help someone. Yeah, it takes a motivated
[13:12]person though. You know, it takes, I don't mean to say it that way. You have to really care. You
[13:17]have to stop what you're doing in life and read a book on how to make your friend feel better.
[13:21]And it's great for people who want to do that. And I advise everyone to do that. But when people
[13:26]are making spur the moment time decisions of what to do versus you just show up at the funeral
[13:31]and you do your best, right? People often just do their best and they don't take the time to read
[13:35]the books or the articles. Yeah, it depends on what you want from your friendships, I suppose.
[13:41]Yes. No, how much are you giving how much you taking? So if you want a real friendship,
[13:47]then yeah, it's worth it. I totally agree. I think I was talking more about like the person who's
[13:54]just going to show up to, you know, send their. There are a lot of them. That is a role for
[13:59]you know, a lot of people and, you know, we can't all be someone's best friend. You know,
[14:03]we can't. And there's only so many different a person can have. So that is also a valid
[14:11]response if you're not a dear friend of that person who is feeling pain. Yeah. So back to the book.
[14:20]I feel like though this is so relevant because the intensity of feeling in this conversation
[14:26]echoes the intensity of feeling in the book. It is when you said the book is all the feels like
[14:32]that is exactly what it is. There are books about being moms and there are books that feature
[14:37]moms as characters. But this is very much the interior life of a mom and the, you know, the jarring
[14:45]effects of that. Not just, you know, it's a show don't tell a situation. Yeah. And that's another
[14:52]thing that I've learned is that show don't tell a place to all sorts of stuff. Like how you love
[14:58]someone. You don't just go, I love you. You have to show them, you know, and the book starts out
[15:03]like page one is the mother is saying to her baby. He's a baby at the beginning. I love you. Yes,
[15:08]I love you. Do you understand me? I love you. You know, I kind of make a baby understand that I
[15:13]love you. But actually it's in your act. How you treat someone that you showed them that you love
[15:19]to say it isn't enough. You love is it's an action. It's not a word. Not just a word.
[15:25]Gosh. Now I feel bad about the way I treated my husband this morning.
[15:30]I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. But I don't know. I'm going to teach my husband so
[15:37]nor does my character.
[15:38]Good reminder, though.
[15:43]See, you mentioned that the book already came out in Ireland.
[15:49]What was that like and were you surprised by some of the responses or just tell me a little
[15:53]bit about that?
[15:54]Yes, I was actually deeply, deeply surprised.
[15:57]Yeah, it came out in Ireland, in the UK, in May 2023.
[16:02]And I had a friend who read it for me, say to me, you know, this could make people
[16:09]very angry.
[16:10]And I was worried, you know, I was, nobody wants to be the target of a lot of anger.
[16:18]Well, it isn't a story about how uniformly wonderful motherhood is, though the wonder
[16:24]of motherhood I hope is there.
[16:26]But there is a lot of resentment, like there's a lot of resentment in soldier towards
[16:30]her husband.
[16:31]So, and then the book did come out and I was astonished by the reviews.
[16:37]It's a funny one.
[16:38]I felt so kind of broken by motherhood and like, I've never been a writer again and I
[16:42]kind of, I still find it hard to remember the end of the sentence when I'm half a druid.
[16:46]So, how am I going to write a novel, you know?
[16:49]And this is a common thing, like the conversations I've had with other mothers were just
[16:54]kind of drifting off.
[16:55]And it's like, because you're so scattered and focused on somebody else, it's hard
[17:01]to.
[17:02]So anyway, when the reviews came out and it's like, I've never had such beautiful reviews
[17:07]that treated me like an artist, you know, this is a work of art.
[17:11]And if I could have seen those reviews when I was trying to put the book together, when
[17:15]I was sitting there crying, going, you're not a writer anymore, you know, but could have
[17:19]seen them, well, then it wouldn't be the book.
[17:22]But it was a real shock in the best way.
[17:26]And then the other thing that's been great is the reader responses because I did spend
[17:31]when my boy was really small, that this is the little years before speech, before they
[17:35]go to school, the baby and toddler years.
[17:38]But I would find myself a playground or just situations where I'd be with mothers of other
[17:43]little kids trying to suss them out like, are you finding this as hard as I am?
[17:48]Are you failing or you struggling or you, and I would kind of get smiled at nicely and
[17:54]back away from?
[17:55]And I never really got the kind of interaction going that I had thought I'd find.
[18:01]I never encountered another mother who like, yeah, this is shit, the patriarchy's
[18:05]pulling.
[18:06]I was doing it.
[18:07]You know, I didn't hear the stuff that I really needed to hear.
[18:09]So I felt like the lone whiner, you know, we're just going to have it.
[18:14]I spent my whole life anyway.
[18:15]But when there's reader responses on things like good reads and net galley, and they were
[18:22]saying things like, yeah, I recognize this.
[18:26]Thank you.
[18:27]I feel seen.
[18:28]I've been that soldier too.
[18:29]And that was immense.
[18:30]The validation for me, you know, the women find it very hard, well certainly on this side
[18:37]of the Atlantic, to confess to not finding this joyous experience that it's kind of sold
[18:45]to us.
[18:46]And it's all, I think it's connected with failure, you know, that kind of reinforced
[18:51]all the time that you failed again, you failed this, you failed that.
[18:55]So I didn't have that kind of conversation when I was going through it.
[19:00]So to hear it afterwards was, first on me, we feel good, but it's also the fact that the
[19:05]book makes other mothers feel good too.
[19:08]And actually, there's a lot of men readers that that's bizarre to me because before,
[19:14]like Irish writers, Irish female writers became big in the time between me stopping
[19:20]writing, and they became a thing, you know, and certainly for my first book, four books
[19:27]I would almost never see a man at a reading, men didn't read books by certainly by Irish
[19:34]women.
[19:35]Now they do.
[19:36]And this gives me hope that the parental model will become more shared, and I think that's
[19:42]really good for the kids, you know, and for the future and for the world and for humanity
[19:49]and all of those good things.
[19:50]So it was an immensely positive response, and it also gave me more stature than my own home,
[19:56]which is getting its immensely positive.
[20:00]I remember my kids, we said daddy fixed things.
[20:03]Like, as in, that's what daddy does for a living.
[20:05]And I said, well, what does Mami do?
[20:07]And he said, Mami clean things.
[20:10]Oh, no!
[20:11]I know, I know.
[20:12]And I said, whoa, get over here
[20:15]and I brought it to the bookcase.
[20:16]You said I couldn't find the books.
[20:17]But eventually, if I look, Mami write things.
[20:19]Yeah?
[20:21]Mami write things.
[20:22]But in his lifetime, Mami had never produced a book
[20:25]until last year.
[20:26]And suddenly, I'm getting shy admiration from my child.
[20:30]And also, in the domestic situation,
[20:33]I have a bit of clawback now that I didn't have before.
[20:36]You've no structure when you arise.
[20:38]You've no office.
[20:39]You've no boss.
[20:40]You've no salary slip.
[20:41]You've no.
[20:42]You can't say I have to be there at 2 o'clock
[20:45]because of my, you don't take it on your team.
[20:48]Just you, you have to do it while you
[20:50]can in between the crevices that are left to you.
[20:53]So now I'm more of a going concern
[20:56]within my own domestic kingdom.
[20:59]And then, Mami.
[21:01]Oh, my gosh, I love that.
[21:03]OK, well, as a last question, do you
[21:05]have any advice for aspiring authors?
[21:08]This whole episode has been advice for aspiring authors,
[21:10]honestly, and persistence and all of that.
[21:12]But any last minute, takeaways.
[21:15]You know what?
[21:16]The best thing I remember when I was starting out,
[21:18]I went and bought a book on how to write.
[21:19]And the only thing I can remember is a writer writes.
[21:23]That's all you do.
[21:24]You just sit there and you write.
[21:26]I mean, my own method is to, I open a file called notes.
[21:29]And I just write into it and I write anything.
[21:31]Anything at all that comes into my mind.
[21:34]I've supposed to write a thousand words a day.
[21:35]I used to back in the old days.
[21:37]Now it's scattered.
[21:39]But I just write into this file called notes
[21:41]until a novel soldier emerges out of it.
[21:45]I might see a chapter.
[21:46]And what the main takeaway is just a writer writes.
[21:51]Write something.
[21:52]I love that.
[21:53]Oh my gosh.
[21:53]Well, Claire, this has been so great.
[21:56]I can't even explain.
[21:58]I hope people listening feel the same way.
[21:59]I feel like it shifted my outlook on the day
[22:02]and infused it with a little bit more perspective,
[22:06]solemnity, inspiration, the carpet
[22:11]DM type of moments.
[22:12]And also just to connect with you another soul
[22:16]sort of going through parenting and writing
[22:18]and all of that stress.
[22:20]So thank you for that.
[22:22]Well, thank you and thank you for having me.
[22:24]I really appreciate it.
[22:26]My pleasure.
[22:27]Well, I'm excited for the US release.
[22:29]So best of luck.
[22:30]Thank you.
[22:31]You too, thanks, bye bye.
[22:35]Thanks for listening.
[22:36]Two moms don't have time to read books.
[22:38]If you love it, please leave a review.
[22:39]And follow us on social at city Owens
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