Return guest! Madeleine Henry, MY FAVORITE TERRIBLE THING
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zivi Owens and I am the host of this podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Madeline Henry is back on Momstone Have Time to Read Books, now discussing her novel,
[0:36]my favorite terrible thing. Madeline writes edgy and expected suspense. My favorite terrible thing is
[0:42]her third novel, and her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post,
[0:46]and other publications. She lives with her husband in New York, where she's at work on her next book.
[0:51]You can find her on Instagram at MadelineHenryYoko. Welcome Madeline, thank you so much for coming on
[0:57]Momstone Have Time to Read Books to discuss my favorite terrible thing novel. Thank you so much.
[1:03]I'm actually such a huge fan of your podcast. If you ever want to have a podcast about your
[1:09]podcast, I would totally be just signed me up to be a guest on that podcast. What's a podcast
[1:16]about the podcast? Would that even be? I don't know. It does get pretty meta, so maybe I'm just
[1:21]thinking in a meta way. Yeah, I'm accepting. The momstone Have Time to Read Books podcast.
[1:27]And as a new mom, you know this well, right? Yes, ain't that the truth? Do you have any time to read
[1:34]these days? Yeah, I would say that, so I have a six month old, and yeah, so I would say that it's
[1:42]made me aware of the ticking clock more than it used to be, but I'm not, we do have some help,
[1:48]so I'm able to carve out some, some me time to get stuff done during the day. Good,
[1:53]excellent. Well, this is part of your job, right? Readings. Yeah, it's not off there, you know.
[1:59]Okay, please tell listeners what your book is about. Okay, so this book starts with a disappearance,
[2:07]and the world famous author Claire Ross has gone missing on the morning of her wedding. And Claire
[2:14]wrote a very interesting book. She wrote the epic love story called The Starlet Ballet,
[2:21]which is about soulmates who reincarnate and find each other in every lifetime across historical
[2:27]eras. So they find each other in ancient Rome and off the coast of Madagascar in the golden age
[2:35]of pirates and in Philadelphia during the yellow fever epidemic in 1793 and onward into the future.
[2:43]And it took Claire 10 years to perfect this book, which is something that her fans appreciate,
[2:50]sometimes to the point of madness. So after two months without any leads, Claire's mom hires the
[2:58]private investigator Nina Travers to try and find her daughter. And so there's a missing person
[3:05]story here, but it's also about fandom and obsession and the line between fiction and reality.
[3:13]Wow, so cool. You're a really good writer. I just, I know you know that, but I was really struck
[3:20]with and I've read your previous books and everything too. And you just keep getting better and
[3:24]better. I mean, it's really fun to watch. You know, honestly, I mean, they were good too. I don't
[3:27]mean to say that they were not good. But like your writing is so clear. And this is kind of a new
[3:33]genre, you know, a little more mystery. And it's very cool. You did a great job. Just want to
[3:39]that's so nice. Because you've read, you know, like more books than anyone I've ever met. So
[3:44]you know, it carries a lot of weight. So thank you. No, it's good. I like that you wrote from the
[3:50]point of view of Nina and how we totally get into her life. And you know, just what it's like
[3:57]the sort of class differences between her and the Hampton's family is who she's helping her need
[4:04]for praise, honestly. And to be seen for the hard work. Like she's had to give up so much in
[4:11]her life and not really going to college. I love how you have her sneaking in and like listening
[4:16]in on classes. And you know, this sort of striving and longing that she has and how it comes to,
[4:26]you know, how she just, it comes all to a head when she's literally like in Claire's bedroom,
[4:31]you know, like in the closet, like looking, you know, where she wants to be versus where she is in
[4:37]life and how to get there. Yeah. That's funny. The first thing that I knew about Nina is that I
[4:42]really wanted her character to be overlooked and underestimated. And so that was the seed of
[4:48]Nina. And so I really played up the invisibility of her profession. And so as a private investigator,
[4:55]her entire identity is subsumed by the details of the lives of others. And so there's no spotlight
[5:03]on her gifts or her internal world at all. And so I really just doubled down on that. And it's
[5:09]actually a thread that I see in other private high novels. So in Nina Prose is the maid. It's not a
[5:17]private investigator novel, but you see Molly be overlooked and underestimated in a way that
[5:23]gives her not an advantage, but it gives her information that she wouldn't have otherwise,
[5:28]because then people are less self conscious around her and they're leaking information. And also
[5:34]in the Agatha Christie Miss Marple series, you see Miss Marple be really discounted for being
[5:40]a quote little old lady. But then people, they'll carry themselves in ways they wouldn't otherwise
[5:45]and she can glean a lot from that. And so Nina has this really interesting duality of being
[5:51]discounted, neglected and overlooked. But at the same time, it gives her a powerful seat in a way
[5:58]into the lives of other people. Very interesting. Wow. Nina has a line or you have a line early on
[6:06]that I thought was great as you're describing the Hamptons and the homes. Let's see if I can find it.
[6:13]But it was something to the extent of wait here. Let me see something about how the houses
[6:19]you said it much better. I found it. I found it. No, you said it's unsettling how much
[6:26]heartache can fit into homes this enormous. I love that line. I feel like that's a theme. Well,
[6:33]that's a nice. Yeah. Well, I think that Nina has this very outsider lens through which she
[6:39]sees the world. And I think that I think I heard Ruth Ware say that there's a spark of herself
[6:46]and every character. And that's the spark that animates them. She draws inward to find something
[6:52]to bring them to life. And I think that people I've always wanted to be a writer. And I think
[6:57]maybe people who are born with that inclination have this outsider lens that's always going in
[7:04]the back of their mind. We always have one foot out of the situation kind of watching and looking in.
[7:09]And so I think I drew on that in creating Nina. And that was maybe the spark that helped bring her
[7:15]to life. The setting is great in and of itself and the way you describe the Hamptons. And let
[7:21]people in and how Hamptons wardrobes would look. You know, just all of it. Tell me about the setting
[7:29]and the role of that. Yeah. So this book takes place in East Hampton during the off season,
[7:37]importantly, which is not a window into the Hamptons that I see very often. You always see the crowd
[7:44]in Hamptons, the happy Hamptons, you know, the Hamptons house on reality TV. But this is the
[7:49]desolate Hamptons. And it is the de gray sparse beaches, gray water, damp sand, rustling dunes
[7:58]part of the Hamptons. And so I thought that was really interesting to focus on because I hadn't seen
[8:03]it really be a focus before. And I think that I loved the mood of it because the mood of this novel
[8:10]is very grave. It's very serious. And I loved that the setting just created that atmosphere
[8:18]naturally. And it's funny. I have, so I, this is my third novel. And I think that all of my novels
[8:26]tend to be a little bit more serious than they're ever presented at us. Like my first book was
[8:34]categorized as a romantic comedy despite having just a flirtation in the book. And then it being
[8:41]really a workplace comedy. And so it's just, my books are always pretty, you know, intellectual and
[8:47]serious. And so in this case, the setting is doubling down on this and saying, this is a book is
[8:53]saying things like this is not a romantic comedy. So you get that in the setting. That's true.
[8:59]Well, the cover does not suggest. That's true. That's good. Yeah. Tell me about the title.
[9:06]Oh, okay. So the title, this was not the original title. So Claire's book is called The Starlet
[9:14]Ballet. And so that was my working title for a lot of this book's life. And then so then getting
[9:20]into it with my editor, who's someone you know, it's really as your editor for a blank and over
[9:26]heard, which I'm really excited about. And so she said, maybe there's a more suspenseful title,
[9:32]and I agreed immediately. I said, who's gonna read The Starlet Ballet? I don't know. And so just in the
[9:38]sense that it could be misleading as to the themes and subject. So I sat with it for a long time.
[9:46]And then the name, my favorite terrible thing just came to me. And I really loved it because first
[9:52]well, it's very suspenseful. Second, there are layers to it. So there are multiple interpolate
[9:58]interpretations of
[10:00]my favorite terrible thing.
[10:02]So it's just a very, it's interesting thing
[10:04]to chew on mentally, and I won't reveal what those are
[10:08]because I think that they're spoilers.
[10:10]But and then the last thing is that my favorite
[10:12]terrible thing, it does preview the language in the book,
[10:15]which is I really try, I care a lot about style.
[10:19]And so that's just something that grows on me more
[10:22]as I get older, as I care about every word.
[10:25]And so I do try for the sentences to be beautiful,
[10:27]even when we're getting into darker things.
[10:30]So my favorite terrible thing, I think,
[10:32]previews that this book is going to be written by someone
[10:36]who really cares about the language.
[10:37]And so I think that all those things come together
[10:40]and just back punch.
[10:42]Well, it's a great sort of overall package,
[10:47]great job to you and Carmen.
[10:48]Yeah, love that.
[10:51]You do an another good job, probably.
[10:54]Well, you probably wrote this before.
[10:55]You had your child, but the mother child,
[11:00]the everyone's fear that something will happen
[11:03]to their child.
[11:04]And the way you portray the mom in the book
[11:07]and hers or devastation and not being able to go in the room.
[11:11]And just the not being able to sleep in the house
[11:15]and do all the little things that you would think,
[11:18]well, what would happen if your daughter
[11:19]were to disappear on her wedding morning?
[11:22]Like, how would you deal with that?
[11:23]Like, what would that feel like to you?
[11:25]And what, how would you handle it?
[11:29]And her frustration at the police
[11:31]and not having any answers.
[11:33]So take me into the mind of the mom.
[11:35]Yeah, so it's funny because I read for the first,
[11:39]I don't know, 1,000 I read every review or like everything.
[11:43]People would say, and now it's like I've toned it down.
[11:45]You have to do other things.
[11:46]But it's funny because I would see people say
[11:49]that Miranda Claire's mom was her favorite character
[11:53]in some cases, which I found to be very interesting.
[11:56]So Miranda is really resonating with people in her grief
[12:00]and her struggle.
[12:02]So Miranda is the mom of two.
[12:05]So she has two daughters, Claire and her sister, Kira.
[12:08]And Claire and Kira have really carved out distinct identities
[12:13]as I think happens in families where siblings are reactive
[12:17]and will build their personhood in reaction to everyone
[12:22]also that they have uniqueness and something
[12:25]particular to them to offer the role.
[12:27]So you see Claire as this very soulful and smart,
[12:32]introspective person.
[12:34]She's not very superficial.
[12:36]She unlike her sister, Kira, who likes life more
[12:39]in the fast lane.
[12:40]And she believes TV is where it's at.
[12:44]Not in this business of novel writing, which is slow
[12:47]and who reads anymore.
[12:49]And Miranda is having to juggle the sibling dynamic
[12:54]as the state, which is still ongoing,
[12:57]even though Claire is missing, Kira has not really softened
[13:01]in light of her sister's disappearance.
[13:03]She still is.
[13:04]She's been remarkably unaffected by it,
[13:06]which is something that Nina is zeroing in on.
[13:11]And so Miranda is balancing the sibling dynamic
[13:15]along with the loss of someone who
[13:18]might.
[13:19]There are signs in the book that Claire was favored,
[13:22]like their house is filled with copies of the starlet
[13:25]ballet, which I think is really interesting
[13:28]because there has to be filled with copies of one daughter's
[13:32]book where, and there are no visible signs of the other child.
[13:35]It's just kind of this haunting suggestion
[13:38]of, OK, well, where was the parental attention in this family?
[13:42]And so in its funny, in editing, there
[13:45]would be questions.
[13:46]Like, are we going to say, explicitly,
[13:47]why are there so many copies of this book in the house?
[13:50]And I liked it to be more of a question.
[13:53]I liked it to just be this subtle favoritism.
[13:56]And also, I was answering it as a bigger rim.
[13:59]Yeah, exactly.
[14:00]Exactly.
[14:01]Yeah, so maybe that's not so subtle.
[14:03]But and I also just loved the image of a house
[14:05]filled with the same kind of book over and over again,
[14:08]because in drawing on this emptiness and the disappearance
[14:12]of Claire, it's just, it's even more haunting
[14:14]for there to be all these traces of her.
[14:16]And so Miranda, I guess she came the spark of me
[14:22]that was in Miranda is not the obsession around her daughter's
[14:28]disappearance, but she definitely does.
[14:30]But sometimes you can be in an emotional place
[14:33]where you're so on edge.
[14:34]You're so close to the edge at any point
[14:37]that just a little thing is going to send you over.
[14:40]And so there are all these instances where she's
[14:43]just so quietly tense, tense, tense, tense, tense,
[14:45]and then little things will just kind of pop the balloon.
[14:49]And you'll get a glimpse into everything
[14:52]that's building up in her.
[14:54]I don't react like that.
[14:56]Hey.
[14:57]Yeah.
[14:58]I don't let things pile up.
[15:01]That's like the de facto, just brush her into the rug, right?
[15:06]Like that's what they're doing.
[15:06]Yeah, exactly.
[15:08]And then finally, I'm like, oh my god,
[15:09]let me send you this five paragraph long email about it.
[15:12]Because I'm thinking about it for months.
[15:14]Anyway, yeah, we all have our downfalls.
[15:18]That's amazing.
[15:19]Tell me about writing this missing character,
[15:21]because you have to make Claire into a character,
[15:23]even though she's not there.
[15:25]People's memories, people's perceptions.
[15:27]And yet you can't use really all the day-to-day things
[15:32]because at first, she is just gone.
[15:35]So how did you do that?
[15:37]And did you, when you were crafting all the characters,
[15:40]was it something new going in?
[15:42]This is who these people are, or did they
[15:44]sort of come to shape as you wrote?
[15:46]Yeah, so that's really interesting because one of the things
[15:50]that this book meditates on is on our cultural icons,
[15:54]on the extremely successful artists who we elevate.
[15:57]And what are those people really like?
[16:00]And so it's interesting to have Claire
[16:04]as a cultural icon and as the main character in this book,
[16:08]she is put together through what everyone else
[16:11]says about her.
[16:12]So she you put her together in your mind
[16:14]through the opinions of her family,
[16:17]through the text of her book.
[16:18]But you never actually meet her.
[16:20]And I think it's really similar to,
[16:23]so that's how you get to know her as a missing character.
[16:26]But it's really similar to how we construct
[16:28]our own cultural icons and that we don't know these people
[16:31]at all, but we have such strong feelings of them
[16:34]based on what other people have said about them
[16:36]and based on their own work.
[16:38]And so I thought that was a really interesting parallel
[16:41]where we are getting to know Claire the same way.
[16:43]We get to know all of the people on the Billboard top 10
[16:47]and all of the bestselling authors who become so meaningful
[16:51]to us and become real people to us.
[16:55]So that kind of figuring her out
[16:57]I thought was an interesting parallel.
[16:59]But I really just became very interested with extreme fame
[17:04]and how the extremely weird life
[17:07]that can lead some draw someone into.
[17:10]And you know, we see it happening today
[17:13]with you know, there are people who have lives
[17:16]that become so siloed.
[17:17]And so lonely because they are too famous for everyday life
[17:22]and I just became really interested in
[17:24]what would that do to the mind?
[17:26]And what would that do to their inner really,
[17:29]their most intimate relationships
[17:31]because there's this really interesting paradox where
[17:35]in order to become an extremely successful artist
[17:39]you have to create something that resonates
[17:41]with a large group of people.
[17:43]But then the life of an extremely successful artist
[17:46]is so unrelatable and it's so strange.
[17:50]And they miss out on all of these quote normal experiences.
[17:54]And so I think it's funny when some of these people
[17:57]release music or put out a piece of work
[18:00]and then everybody says, oh yeah, you know,
[18:02]this reminds me of this part of my life, this part of my life.
[18:05]And then, you know, but the person behind this work
[18:08]is actually rarely goes in public maybe
[18:10]or they rarely have any experience that overlaps with yours.
[18:14]And so it's just this really interesting paradox.
[18:17]And I just became fascinated with how extreme fame
[18:20]can put people in really weird situations.
[18:24]In this case, and of course, yeah.
[18:27]But I feel like that is what Taylor Swift does so well I know.
[18:30]Right, I mean, she has a new life.
[18:35]Like, first of all, all the famous people
[18:37]were not always famous.
[18:38]I mean, some people are born into fame,
[18:39]but most people have achieved something.
[18:42]So they at least have a stable of years to sort of fall back on.
[18:45]But I feel like Taylor Swift is so like I'm still living it.
[18:50]I'm still just like you.
[18:52]I'm excited that you're liking it.
[18:53]Do you feel like that?
[18:54]I don't know.
[18:55]Maybe not.
[18:56]No, I definitely think that.
[18:57]I think in Claire's case, people can project certain things
[19:03]onto her because her work resonates with them.
[19:06]But her life is that she rarely goes out in public.
[19:09]And she has just a whole bunch of weird idiosyncrasies
[19:13]that she has to live with because of her fame.
[19:17]And to focus on an extremely successful author
[19:20]is really, it's not always the case in reality, right?
[19:23]Like, there are so few authors
[19:26]who ever achieve real popular fame.
[19:29]I mean, I think that the number of people
[19:31]who would recognize John Grisham or James Patterson
[19:34]walking down the street is really, really small.
[19:36]And most people, I think, don't really
[19:39]have personal connections with the authors
[19:43]of the best-selling series.
[19:45]It's really the exception to the rule.
[19:47]So to make Claire that kind of famous,
[19:50]it is unusual, but I was really fascinated
[19:54]with what that might look like for an author.
[19:59]Yeah.
[20:00]the downsides of it as well. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So Claire has this very particular kind of
[20:06]fame where, because normally in the fiction world, the phandoms are for characters. And so you'll
[20:11]see Potterheads dressed up as Harry Potter, Hermione Granger. And then I think they're called
[20:16]ringers, actually, Lord of the Rings fans just, you know, they'll dress up as characters as well.
[20:23]But in Claire's case, her fans will dress up as Claire. So their fandom supersedes the
[20:29]characters and becomes a fandom for her personally. So it's sort of an unusual situation,
[20:36]but that's, I guess, why it's worth writing about, because if it was something everyone
[20:40]were familiar with, you know, it wouldn't be as fresh. Yeah, interesting. Same thing as like
[20:45]Colleen Hoover, I mean, everyone's reading her books, you know, which was like, and interesting.
[20:50]Yeah, my theory is like, they should be, you should know who they are. Like, they should be
[20:56]recognizable. Why aren't they? Like, why not have authors achieve fame in the same way? Like,
[21:03]why aren't we taking pictures of their outfits? Like, wouldn't that just elevate
[21:08]what they're doing and bring even more people to them? But maybe not. Well, no, I've heard
[21:12]you say that authors are rock stars. And I think that taps into the same idea. And so I've heard
[21:18]you say that before. And I think someone else on your podcast replied, well, authors don't want
[21:22]to be rock stars. Authors want to be anonymous or something to that effect. And so to each their
[21:27]own, but you're right that the fascination, it does not extend the authors as much. And I hope it
[21:34]has to do with frequency, because every book takes so long. So if you're putting, you know,
[21:39]work out every year or so. I mean, is that enough to keep people interested in who you are
[21:44]personally? And maybe it's just as to do with the personalities of authors and that they don't tend
[21:49]to seek it out. And you know, because if you're really focused on the work itself, which is solitary
[21:55]and you know, word based, you're not out campaigning. You're putting out putting your face places.
[22:01]You don't have tours to the extent that pop stars do. So maybe it's a mix of the personalities
[22:06]that are drawn to it and the nature of the work. But I agree that there's definitely the potential
[22:13]for that kind of reality to develop where authors are rock stars. It just doesn't, it hasn't really
[22:19]caught on. Yeah. Maybe I should, you know, put down the, what's that, you know, flag or whatever,
[22:25]the, you know, the torch that I'm trying to carry. You've been on a rock star tour. I mean,
[22:31]you know, what part, what percent through you are, you've been most recently? Hey, or I know,
[22:38]I know it's crazy. But I also feel like getting out meeting people is the most effective way to
[22:43]get the word out about what you're doing. Like how it hasn't, what is your plan for, for touring
[22:48]for this book and everything? Yeah. So this is my first time with a first book with a new publisher.
[22:53]And so I'm actually only doing virtual for tour wise. There's a launch event on April 30th,
[23:00]which is virtual where Liz Moore and I will be in conversation hosted by Buckhampton.
[23:06]And her details about that on my website. But for my last novel, The Love Proof, I
[23:13]it came out in 2021. So still pandemic era. And so that was all virtual events as well.
[23:21]But I did between 60 and 70 virtual events, which include book store zooms. And you,
[23:27]I think you have real context for that. That's a lot of scheduling. That's a lot of zooming.
[23:34]Yeah. But it's, honestly, it's so fun to meet people that you otherwise would never meet
[23:41]in your whole life and to talk with people about your book. I mean, it's, it's incredible privilege
[23:47]and it's extremely fun. But I think that I wanted to feel out what this new publisher would be
[23:53]like before I signed up for, you know, a bunch of stuff. So I have another book coming out with them
[24:00]next year. And so I'll maybe learn from this experience. But what is that? So that book is,
[24:07]I won't say too much about it, except that those who enjoyed my favorite terrible thing will
[24:12]probably like the next book. And so that is about a wildly creative painter named Devin, who is
[24:21]newly engaged. And it's, I say that it's for anyone who has ever grappled with the question,
[24:29]are my in-laws insane or am I? And so it is sort of an insidious, dark labyrinth of
[24:36]mounting suspense and suspicion between her and her new in-laws. That is a great premise.
[24:43]Yeah. Yeah. Good for you. Everybody loves an in-law story. So,
[24:48]yeah. So exciting. And what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[24:54]I have a lot of advice. So one thing I would say is that, and this is advice that I really struggle
[25:02]to internalize. So I'm constantly reminding myself of this. So this is something I've learned and just
[25:06]execute flawlessly. This is something that I like try to relearn and relearn every day. So Natalie
[25:13]Goldberg wrote this book writing down the bones, which gives a lot of great writing advice.
[25:18]And one of the pieces in there is that you have to separate your, your internal creator
[25:23]from your internal sensor. And you have to give the creator space to explore and breathe and,
[25:31]you know, go down rabbit holes and be crazy. Before you come in and you make everything pretty
[25:37]and you clean it up. And I think that my personality is definitely, I like things to be neat.
[25:42]And I like things to be done and tidy and like, let's just get on to the next thing. You know,
[25:46]we have something else happening next year. And so it's really a constant push pull. And I have
[25:50]to really remind myself to let the creator go crazy and to indulge that part. So that is one piece
[25:59]of advice. And then another piece of advice I have, which is I heard actually David Sedaris give
[26:05]on your podcast. And I've heard, I've heard it from, I think, Emily Henry as well. But it's that
[26:11]you have to separate writing from publishing. And I think it can get unintentionally, you can
[26:17]confuse them. And you can think, oh, okay, these are, and then you confuse kind of the metrics
[26:23]of publishing with the evaluating your own writing. And it just becomes very muddled. And you can
[26:30]lose track of what actually matters, which is the work and showing up and tapping into your own
[26:36]creativity. And, you know, so I think that don't confuse publishing for writing is my other
[26:44]piece of advice. I love that. So great. That was actually quite helpful for me.
[26:49]Which I know I'm doing. It is hard because if it's like stage fright, it's like if you feel like
[26:56]every word is being put on a projector. And for all the world to see, you'll never read another word.
[27:01]Yeah. And I know that there's this, there's this advice out there, which is that don't wait for
[27:07]inspiration, show up every day, treat it like a job. And that's how you're supposed to write. But I
[27:12]actually, there's a nuance to that that I don't like because I don't think you should treat it
[27:18]like a job because then you will feel dead inside. Like I think that you have, there's something to
[27:25]be said for consistency. But that's distinct from treating it like a job. I think that be consistent,
[27:31]but you have to feel kind of wild and free. You have to feel like this is my solace and my oasis
[27:38]and my respite from the rest of the world. That is keeping me down. So I think that that also helps
[27:46]with distinguished writing from publishing because you're saying forget the business of it. Like
[27:51]I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna be my artist today. I'm just gonna be my artist self. And obviously
[27:55]be responsible, be diligent, show up. But, you know, remember what matters. Love it.
[28:02]Madeline, thank you so much. This was great. The book is great. I feel like it will be wonderful
[28:08]for Ham tonight's to be reading. And everybody else. And I can't wait for your, your next book.
[28:13]Oh, that's very nice. Thank you so much. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you.
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