Zibby's Book Club pick & a Read With Jenna pick! Alison Espach, THE WEDDING PEOPLE
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow
[0:24]me on social at Zippy Owens or join the community at Zippy Readers.
[0:31]Allison Espatch is the author of The Wedding People and Novel, which is my Zippy's book club pick.
[0:37]I really, really, really love this book. I know you will too. I'm excited for you to hear
[0:41]our episode and more excited for you to go and read the book, which sounds dark but is incredibly
[0:46]funny and just exceptionally well written. I hope you all enjoy it and I hope if you're not part
[0:51]of Zippy's book club that you sign up for it, you can just google it or go to zippymedia.com
[0:56]and you'll find Zippy's book club we would love to have you. Allison Espatch is the author of
[1:02]The Novels, The Adults, A New York Times editor's choice, and a Barnes and Noble Discover pick
[1:07]and notes on your sudden disappearance, which was named the best book of 2022 by the Chicago
[1:12]Tribune and NPR. Her short stories and essays have appeared in McSweenies, Vogue,
[1:17]Outside, Joy Land, and other places. She is currently a professor of creative writing
[1:21]at Providence College in Rhode Island. Welcome, Allison. Thank you so much for coming. On
[1:26]mom, start out time to read books to discuss the wedding vivals. So excited. Thank you. I'm so
[1:31]excited to be here. It's really funny to actually be on this podcast because I've been listening
[1:37]to it. It's sort of non-stop for the past few days while making this brick path in my backyard.
[1:41]Like I often listen to podcasts or audiobooks. I was like, you know what all the Zippy's podcast
[1:46]and you have made a very tedious process actually pretty enjoyable. I mean, it's truly
[1:55]so tedious. I don't for any ambitious DIY iris out there. This is not for, this is like a job
[2:03]left for the pros, I'd say. I wasn't going to try it. Yeah, definitely. I don't have
[2:09]in 2020 and so I'm still starting through like the like which tasks are for me and like which
[2:15]tasks are for the pros and I definitely definitely learn my lesson on this one. My task for me
[2:20]list is very, very short. Yeah, I think I'm headed in that direction. I'm kind of just like crossing
[2:26]the line. No, no. Select the furniture. Select the wallpaper. Add to cart. That's my job.
[2:38]That's a good one. That's a good one. Given my teenage son, I'm like, okay, great. A box arrived.
[2:42]Could you just assemble this for me? Thank you. Where do you live? Where's your house? I mean,
[2:49]not exactly. Yeah. Well, if you look on Google Maps now, it's in Providence, Rhode Island.
[2:56]Oh, nice. Yeah. I promise. I'm not going to, you're going to like turn around,
[3:00]but you know, be in that window behind you. Why aren't you done with the brick path yet?
[3:04]I'm here to recite the podcast in person. Anyway, okay, the wedding people,
[3:09]this is literally one of my favorite books lately. It is so good. I have savored like every sentence,
[3:16]you know, my superpowers being able to skim like I can skim books and read in my way like
[3:23]so many books. And this one I have been carrying around with me for a while because every sentence
[3:29]I have to like slow down because they're so smart and funny. Not that they're not in other books,
[3:34]but it's just particularly amazing. Just, I'm loving it. Loving, loving. So thank you for saying that.
[3:42]That's like a really wonderful compliment. I'm sure you will hear this a million times over.
[3:47]Then I was describing it to someone. I was like, yeah, this is my book club pick and blah, blah,
[3:51]and they're like, what's it about? And I'm like, oh, it's about a suicidal woman who like
[3:56]goes throughout how to kill herself and they're like, oh, yeah, that's the funny book. It's funny.
[4:03]It's like, anyway. How do you describe it? I'll let you give me that. I mean, that is you hit
[4:10]the nail on the head in terms of the challenge of promoting this book. Yes. You know, well,
[4:16]also trying to make sense, you know, to people. Yeah. Would you like me to describe it a little bit?
[4:20]Yeah. Why don't you? Okay. I can just show you how I describe it. And you can tell me
[4:25]if it sounds, it sounds like a little workshop it. This is actually very early in the process for me.
[4:33]So honestly, we're jumping it sounds great. So why don't I start by just describing the opening
[4:38]chapter a little bit because I think it really lays out like the kind of basic premise of the book
[4:44]and how the rest will unfold. So the wedding people begins with this woman named Phoebe who wakes
[4:52]up one morning in St. Louis and decides she basically just doesn't want to go to work again.
[4:58]And instead she flies to Newport, Rhode Island to stay at this 19th century luxury hotel.
[5:03]And what's important about this particular hotel is that she and her husband had almost
[5:08]vacationed there once just before their relationship ended. But they decided not to go to this
[5:14]hotel because it was just like too ridiculous, you know, too expensive. Just not really their style.
[5:20]Like there were more like campers in the Ozarks. And this is like Newport and of 19th century
[5:27]historic luxury. But Phoebe is alone now. She's a forest. And she's also an English professor who
[5:33]is in search of a like beautiful and romantic luxurious evening that she hopes will kind of like
[5:43]overshadow just like the loneliness and the monotony of her life at the current at its current moment.
[5:50]Yeah. So basically look, you know, headed on this on this trip, this hotel stay to just sort of
[5:56]be transformed. And when she gets there, you know, it's pretty much as advertised, like this
[6:02]beautiful hotel, like overlooking the ocean. And she's like welcomed in by like candles on the
[6:09]walkway, you know, like these ridiculous velvet drapes. But inside the lobby, she starts to realize
[6:14]that everyone at the hotel is actually there for a wedding. And she, you know, starts picking up on
[6:20]their conversations and starts noticing that everyone seems to be named Jimmy for some reason.
[6:27]And just like listening to all these things, it's just kind of ruining the romance for her.
[6:32]She encounters the bride in the lobby. And the bride becomes particularly fixated on Phoebe's
[6:38]presence because she's the only person not there for the wedding. And she actually mistakes
[6:43]Phoebe for part of her family, you know, just in the opening. And Phoebe's really baffled by
[6:50]this because she's like, you don't know who's in your own family. Like I'm obviously not. And so the
[6:55]bride just continues to ask her why she's here. And over the course of a shared elevator ride,
[7:02]Phoebe becomes so appalled by the bride's self-absorption. And just like, you know, crossing
[7:08]of these boundaries that she starts to feel like she wants to ruin something for her. And so she
[7:13]just tells her why she's here. And she says I'm here to kill myself. And the bride whose name is
[7:20]Lila is like, no, like this is this is my wedding week. I'm sorry, like you cannot do that. And so
[7:28]that's really to me, you know, that was the first scene, you know, the first major scene that I wrote
[7:32]in this book. And that just sort of lays out the kind of like radical honesty that develops
[7:37]between them over the course of of this stay at the at the hotel over the course of this wedding
[7:45]week. And Phoebe and Lila become friends and you know, so have a weird friendship, but a meaningful
[7:54]friendship. And Phoebe sort of gets increasingly entangled in this wedding. So there you go.
[8:02]Okay, it could be a little tighter. Okay. That was a long elevator ride. That was a good feedback
[8:09]right. That is a good as a good description of the beginning. I'll give you that and I'll
[8:13]that. No, I mean, I think it's it's like how one woman comes back from a place where everything feels
[8:25]wrong and ends up finding a whole new life for herself out there. And it's told it's so much humor
[8:32]and heart. And the wedding just is such a foil because weddings are the most joyous, obviously,
[8:41]like the most her theoretically joyous part of life, right? The the pinnacle. And she is like
[8:49]at the nadir, which I don't think I've ever said out loud, but memorized for the SAT. Anyway,
[8:54]at the bottom of it all. And I think it's the juxtaposition and how the most unlikely
[9:00]ist of friendships can end up lifting you up from the darkest of places. You're right. That is much
[9:06]better. Yeah. Can I bring you around with me on tour? You can take that. I'll record it. Okay.
[9:13]Yeah. Where did this idea come from? Yeah. You know, I told you I just I wrote that opening
[9:20]chapter first. Pretty much. I mean, it feels like one sitting. I'm sure it wasn't one sitting,
[9:25]but it came out pretty fast. And it was actually many years ago. And I was in the middle of writing
[9:29]my second novel notes on your sudden disappearance, which to me was like an objectively heavy
[9:34]book. You know, it's about a girl who loses her older sister. And so I just needed a break from
[9:40]heaviness. And I was like, I'm going to write a book that's just like a total fantasy. You know,
[9:45]just like a fun and happy book. And I guess at the time, this was my fantasy, just like taking off
[9:51]abandoning all responsibilities and staying. It's just this amazing hotel where all your needs are
[9:57]from that. And so I just started writing that. And then it.
[10:00]you know, all I had to do was figure out like why she was there. And so, you know, it took a beat,
[10:05]you know, I was like going through all the like, is she like a spy or is she, you know,
[10:09]is she, what would she therefore, you know, and I just kept thinking about what you said,
[10:13]like sort of what is the opposite of a wedding, you know, it's like a woman who's
[10:19]really who feels like she's at the end of her life and not the beginning. And I just kept
[10:23]imagining this, what the weight of that would feel like in in this particular kind of space
[10:30]where there's so much pressure to be happy and forward-looking and celebratory. So, yeah, I think it
[10:40]just came to me almost maybe as, you know, that might have been like the writing professor in me
[10:45]who sort of I'm always telling my students like, okay, here's the situation or here's the
[10:51]here's the character, here's the setting, like what's not in harmony with that, you know, and
[10:57]look at that, like whatever that is, go there. But to me, it was so much darker than I had
[11:01]wanted it to be, you know, I was kind of like, no, this book was a fantasy, like why? But of course,
[11:08]that's exactly what it had to be. There's so many times when Phoebe is just like, even for someone
[11:14]a self-absorbed as a bride, she's like has to laugh and like Lyla will come in and she's like,
[11:20]oh, I know you aren't going to do it. Let me tell you about my dress or whatever. Wow, you know,
[11:25]like that's really like next level self-absorption. And she just like sort of studies it, like
[11:30]she's holding up a foreign object or something, you know, like she just gets such a kick out of
[11:35]Lyla's antics. And I feel like you really throughout the course of the book end up feeling like
[11:43]so much compassion for Lyla too. And she starts as a caricature almost of a bride,
[11:49]but then you really dig in deeper and you're like, oh, well, you know, look at what's going on and
[11:56]you know, look at her seem to be Sister-in-law who's like the worst. You know, I don't know, just like
[12:01]all these different relationships and pressures on her too, right? They become real people. I mean,
[12:06]Phoebe was always like a real person, but Lyla at the beginning was just like the typical bride,
[12:11]and you're just like, oh, I hate you, you're beautiful and perfect. And everything's going so
[12:15]well at this like ocean-house esque resort. And you know, oh my gosh, anyway, was that the intention
[12:21]to kind of hurt? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, you know, I think I wrote Lyla that way
[12:27]or, you know, Phoebe studies Lyla and the way that you're saying because I think part of her
[12:32]is an impressed by Lyla, you know, like impressed by those qualities that seem to Phoebe
[12:38]so alien, right? Like this entitlement or just like walking into a room and not trying to figure
[12:45]out like, what's the vibe or what is everyone talking about so I can join in but really walk in
[12:51]and dictate the vibe or walk in and start the conversation because with whatever she feels like
[12:57]saying, right? Rather than adjusting herself to fit the room, which I think is what Phoebe has
[13:03]always done, right? As sort of always watched herself, always adapted really quickly and easily
[13:09]and, you know, as a professor, always watching her words and being very careful in her delivery
[13:15]and to just see someone not do that, you know, as blatantly as Lyla does. I think that like
[13:24]shocks her into a kind of just distance and but also like a studio's distance, like who is this
[13:30]person and how can a person really be like that, you know, it kind of brings her out of herself
[13:35]a little bit. Yeah. Speaking of English professor, dumb or whatever, English professor land,
[13:42]it was so funny what they were talking about. The mom puts all the statueettes like outside of her
[13:47]door. The one's words because she's like, it looks like I have like dead birds that are figurines
[13:52]like in my hotel room and then Phoebe has to say like, no, no, that's actually how Raven sleep
[13:57]and and then Lyla's like, of course, like, you're the one. Maybe it was Lyla's husband, not John.
[14:02]What's the very gear? Like you are that you, of course, you would know that they're
[14:07]right. And she's like, I'm an English professor. Of course, I know about Raven's like, it's an
[14:10]occupational hazard. You don't know all the birds, you know, they just keep showing up. I mean,
[14:17]I feel like if I had been writing this, I would have been like chuckling the whole time,
[14:21]like at some of these like, like, did you just like laugh out like kind of like chuckle to yourself,
[14:25]just writing some of these deep. You know, I don't, I don't don't think so. I mean, I wouldn't put
[14:30]it past me to do that, but I, I don't recall. I mean, I remember sort of getting losing time,
[14:38]like getting lost in a scene in the way that like it can feel like you're losing time when reading a
[14:44]book or watching a movie. You're just not aware of yourself for a short period of time. You know,
[14:50]and so I think that to me always signals when I'm like really in it, you know, just letting the
[14:56]conversation flow as I, as I, as I would want it to. Yeah. There's one scene on the boat when
[15:04]the Gary, Gary, who she's marrying, his daughter, who they call juice, has is mourning the loss
[15:10]of this sort of plastic human, like almost like one of those Japanese characters that we, what
[15:19]Pikachu or whatever they used to, what do you call them? Oh my God. I can't even, what do they call
[15:23]them? Oh my God. She's like, like a thing like that, which like has a life that I get that Gary's
[15:30]late mother late wife had given juice. And it finally had expired while they're on there and Phoebe
[15:36]takes juice seriously. And it's like, let's have a proper funeral and drone overboard and everyone
[15:41]else is like, that's crazy and don't litter and did it and, and she decides to throw it over word
[15:46]before long Phoebe. It's the only scene where she's really like breaking down like that. Like
[15:52]even when she's suicidal, she's so like a matter of fact about it. Like this is what I'm going to do.
[15:56]She's not like weeping, right? But this scene, she like lets it all come out and she mourns all
[16:01]of this stuff that she's been keeping inside for so long. And I feel like it's a turning point
[16:08]moment sort of in the book where it all just comes out. And I feel like the reader is in it, right?
[16:14]Like we are like, oh my gosh, this is what I'm going to cry for. This is like, these are the things
[16:19]in my life that didn't quite work out. And it all, it's not about the time we got you or whatever
[16:24]the thing is. It's not about the cat or whatever. It's about so much more. So anyway, long way to
[16:30]say, tell me about that scene and and those emotions and all of it. Yeah, you know, I think this scene
[16:37]is a huge turning point for Phoebe because I think, you know, in in approaching the hotel and her
[16:43]plan to sort of kill herself, you know, you're right. It's like very matter of fact, it's very
[16:46]much a plan. Like it sounds like the most ideal way to go about it for her. And there's some
[16:52]element of escape in that and some element of fantasy in that and like not, you know, not having
[16:57]to recognize or really sit with or deal with the major sadness of her life to just sort of
[17:04]just turn away from them and imagine something else. And when that when that doesn't happen,
[17:10]right, you know, she finds herself on this boat with all these wedding people and
[17:14]juices sadness over the loss of this little virtual dog, you know, that no one really
[17:20]takes seriously. It's like, because I think we do that in life, right? We're like, well, that's
[17:25]legit grief. That's not right. We rank it and treated accordingly. And, you know, everyone on the boat,
[17:32]it's like, that's not that's that's not real or that's not enough. But Phoebe becomes invested in it,
[17:37]right? And it becomes it unlocks something in her. And I think for the first time, you know,
[17:43]in the book at least, I don't know about her life exactly, but the first time in the book,
[17:47]like she lets in all the sad, like these are the things I wanted desperately and I didn't get
[17:54]them. And if I'm going to move on, which she is, if I'm going to go on, like, I just have to cry
[18:03]for them, you know? And so linking, like, juices, sadness and the death of this virtual dog to
[18:11]this death of like Phoebe, you know, and everything she had wanted for herself. And I think a funeral
[18:18]like is that, you know, we have these rituals, we have these things in place to help us do that
[18:25]because it's so difficult. And so that's sort of why I imagine her kind of concocting the funeral
[18:31]scene as a way to kind of buy in the two of them together in this moment. But also I just thought
[18:36]it would be ridiculous, you know, like here's this wedding party, like on a beautiful day,
[18:43]and here's the stranger, like getting them all to engage in this funeral. You know, it's just so
[18:49]in the brides over in the corner just baffled and in disbelief, you know.
[18:55]We have upstairs a pot from an old plant, which is the makeshift graveyard for a friendship bracelet
[19:04]that broke complete with a little pretend like headstone that one of my kids made out of favor
[19:10]with the dates of the friendship bracelet and how long they had it. But exactly, yeah,
[19:17]those little things are important. They can be funny and silly too, but they can also actually
[19:22]be genuinely sad as well. Yes. So where is the, where is the darkness in your writing? Where is
[19:31]that coming from? I don't know. I mean, this is a good question about, you know, I mean, I think I think
[19:38]most obviously like thinking about where does the darkness come from in my writing? You know, for
[19:45]for much of my life as a writer, and that includes like my late teenage years when I really started,
[19:50]I was always writing about death. I was always writing about loss. I was always writing about
[19:55]grief. And I, you know, I wouldn't take a very advanced therapist.
[20:00]to say that it's likely due to the fact that my brother died when I was 14 and he was 16
[20:06]very suddenly. So I, you know, I grew up with like a before life, a very happy, wonderful
[20:13]family, you know, and being the kind of kid who who felt very invincible and felt very outside
[20:20]of a lot of grief that I just didn't understand yet. And so when this happened, it really just
[20:25]shifted everything for me. And there'd be, there, there came to be this like really dark
[20:30]sadness at the center of our lives for quite a long time. And, you know, my parents were
[20:37]really as amazing as you can be in that scenario. And they always tried to get me to talk about it,
[20:43]you know, and, and opened up the door, but that's just how teenagers are like they will not
[20:48]walk through that. Like you can't make them. And I just, I just grew up with this sense that there's a
[20:53]sadness at the center that we can't, that I can't talk about. I don't know how to talk about,
[20:58]I don't even know why we would talk about it. You know, I don't know if that's good or if that's
[21:03]bad. Just so many questions around it that I really just started writing through that. It was
[21:09]the safest place for me to go. And I found that I couldn't sustain just sadness, you know, like
[21:16]nothing is ever just sad. Nothing is ever just grief, right? Like so many of the most hilarious
[21:23]moments of my life came out of that time period, you know, just because grief can be extreme,
[21:29]right? And it can produce like really absurd moments and really awkward, funny conversations. And
[21:36]so that just seems so interesting to me and so special about life that I think that that's just
[21:43]where I've always wanted to be in my writing is that in that tension between those two places,
[21:48]like just the utterly hilarious and just the utterly horrifying. And how do we, how do we exist
[21:56]between those two poles? I'm so sorry for your last statement. I'm so sorry. Can I even ask
[22:02]how did he pass away? Oh, it was a car accident. Yeah. Yeah. So, so very set in. And you know,
[22:08]and I just, I wrote people say a lot of times with writers like you're always writing the same book,
[22:13]right? I really was always writing. Like I would set something in Nebraska and it would be like
[22:19]a bunch of copper thieves, you know, I was like trying to get as far away from my life as possible.
[22:24]But of course, like someone there was dealing with a sudden loss of a loved one. And you know,
[22:29]and so I just, I couldn't escape it. I just kept coming back to it. And when I wrote my second novel,
[22:34]notes on your sudden disappearance, which is very much drawn from that specific incident,
[22:40]that was it for me. That kind of cleared the way to just have a little bit more fun and to
[22:46]explore different other kinds of grief, which is sort of what led me to the wedding people.
[22:50]Yeah, I have to go back and read that one now. I mean, I would, I would encourage that.
[22:56]You're not going to say no, I will not stop you. We've still too many of those, you know, sorry.
[23:02]Yeah, the shop is clips. Was there a particular funny thing from that horrific period of your life
[23:08]that you are like, this is a perfect example of like, even in the depths of despair, like, listen
[23:13]to how funny this was? I mean, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure I'm going to forget most of the really good
[23:20]ones. You know, I keep thinking about, or when I was writing notes on your sudden disappearance,
[23:26]a lot of them did flood back to me. And the one that I can think of now is talking to my parents
[23:34]about like, you know, what we're, what we're going to do with my brother's body, you know,
[23:40]are we going to cremate, berry? And so a lot of the conversations started to become about like,
[23:48]well, what would this process be like, and what would that process be like? And I can't even remember
[23:53]like, who said this or what, but like someone started talking about how expensive caskets are,
[23:58]and like, how maybe like we can get one on sale, you know, and that was just like,
[24:04]it just struck me as so funny. And we, you know, I mean, I don't remember if they were laughing,
[24:10]I'm sure they weren't. Like I just, I just thought that would, you know, that I think that was
[24:16]the beginning of me writing a comedy sketch. Like it was, okay, let's take that idea. This I do,
[24:22]like that you're going to get a casket on sale and roll without surgery. Maybe it was,
[24:26]maybe it was, yeah. And like, what would be a high end casket, you know, like, would there be like,
[24:33]luxury items in there? You know, I don't know. So, so that's great, that's great TV. And that,
[24:41]that really just became the beginning of me joking about those, those really difficult things.
[24:47]And so I don't think I'll ever be writing about anything very dark without making sure
[24:53]that the reader is laughing along the way in the way that I laughed along the way and having fun
[24:59]along the way the way that I also had fun. You know, I had a really wonderful life and
[25:04]now talking like I'm dead, but, but you know, it was everything. It was, it was everything.
[25:10]And that's always the feeling that I want my books to have. It was like this feeling of everything.
[25:16]I have to send you, if you don't mind at some point, we have a book coming out from
[25:20]Savvy Books called, I see you've called in dead. And it's about an obituary writer who
[25:25]writes as obituary kind of drunk one night and then ends up sending it in. And so the company thinks
[25:30]he's dead. And if you're dead, you can't fire the person. So he keeps showing up to work.
[25:35]But ends up like finding, finding himself by going to all these funerals. And it's sort of the same
[25:42]and that you're putting yourself in like, same themes. You know, sometimes to really enjoy your life,
[25:49]you have to get very, very close to death. Right? In some way, shape or form, even if you're not sick,
[25:53]you just have to like get as close to it as possible so you can rebound. Yeah, I know. I agree.
[25:59]And I mean, I remember my Spanish teacher in middle school took me under her wing for a little while.
[26:05]She, she had a, she experienced a similar loss. And I remember like eating lunch across from
[26:12]her one day. And I remember her telling me like about her own experiences with that. And she was
[26:17]saying, you know, like, you really can't experience the highs, like the true happiness without that
[26:25]real love, without that genuine sorrow. And I mean, at the time it didn't land with me. But it's
[26:33]stuck with me, you know, I kept thinking about it. And as I got older and in my 20s and then definitely
[26:39]for sure, my 30s was like, yes, of course, of course, right? Because there can be something really
[26:45]distancing about avoiding that, you know, even not just the feeling itself, but just also avoiding
[26:51]talking about those things that there's something numbing about that or something that just keeps
[26:57]us from or keeps me, you know, from really feeling all the good feelings too. Right? You're in this
[27:04]like neutral place. And so with this book, the wedding people, you know, I mean, I really wanted Phoebe
[27:09]to be like, it's like, she was the sadness that slipped into the wedding, you know, at the last
[27:15]moment. But I didn't see it as the kind of sadness that was going to make other people sadder,
[27:20]you know, it wasn't going to infect the wedding. Like she gives other people permission to feel
[27:26]their feelings. And she gives other people permission to actually say what they they want to say.
[27:33]And that helps them feel more like themselves. And that helps them feel happier. And
[27:38]and yeah, I used to work at weddings actually. That's another kind of like, where did this
[27:43]come from? In graduate school, I used to work at a used to be the photo booth attendant when
[27:49]people started renting photo booths for their weddings. And it was pretty new at the time. Like,
[27:54]I don't think people were doing that very often when I started doing this. And so everyone was
[28:00]always really confused by who I was because I was told to dress for the event, which meant I
[28:05]was in a cocktail dress or cocktail party dress. And and looked like a wedding guest. But I was
[28:10]always just like leaning against this photo booth. Not talking to anybody, you know, definitely
[28:18]looked like the loneliness person in the room. And there's actually would attract a lot of
[28:22]other lonely people. Because they're like, well, she's not having fun either. Like, let me go
[28:28]talk to her. And and those are just some of the most interesting conversations. Like, once they
[28:33]found out I wasn't actually there for the wedding, it was like, Oh, well, let me tell you about my
[28:37]family. It was this release, you know, like, it's like, they've been under under lockdown for three
[28:44]days. Like trying to pretend to enjoy everything. But now they can just reveal all to this random
[28:51]stranger. And so that was really a huge part of the book for me too is like making Phoebe that
[28:56]stranger, but just opens things up for them. Interesting. I love that. Do you have the green
[29:03]dress from the beginning? I don't. I've always been in search of it though. It's like,
[29:09]I'm going to look for it. I always let me know. It's very clear in my head. It's a symbol of
[29:17]I don't know. You could almost make it into like a flag or something, you know. I was looking for that
[29:22]but it's just never the right stat. I'm like, do I buy a dress that I don't like just for the
[29:27]emerald green color? I mean, they're they're less crazy things. People have done that.
[29:35]Okay. What advice do you have for aspiring authors? And is there another book in the works?
[29:41]I really love this part of your podcast. I've learned a lot from the other authors who have
[29:45]answered this question. And a lot of people focus on reading, you know, to be a great writer,
[29:50]reading books is really important. I completely agree with agree with that. But the thing I
[29:55]I thought you were I thought you were about to say, but I really don't think you should read.
[29:58]Yeah. I think what you should
[30:00]who is just watch a lot of sitcoms and never read.
[30:04]Now, something that became really important to me as a writer
[30:06]and something I try to help my students see at some point
[30:11]during their time with me is learning how to trust
[30:14]what you like and learning to trust
[30:16]that what you like is worth liking, right?
[30:19]Because I think a lot of young writers,
[30:22]which doesn't have to be just young writers, right?
[30:24]You know, you really, you start to doubt yourself, right?
[30:26]You're like, well, I wrote this thing
[30:29]and I liked it last night and now it seems awful
[30:34]and I gave it to the workshop or I gave it to my friend
[30:37]and they're picking things out, you know?
[30:39]And it can become really easy to just toss that away
[30:43]and just say, you know what, no?
[30:45]Or just to always outsource the opinion, right?
[30:49]Like, is this good, is this good?
[30:51]Tell me if this is good.
[30:52]And there's a place for that,
[30:54]but I think really like just like developing a sense of trust
[31:00]that you can answer that question for yourself
[31:02]and say, you know what, I like it.
[31:04]And I liked it last night, so I'll probably like it again.
[31:07]And let's just wait until that happens and to me,
[31:11]that's like the thing that's carried me through
[31:14]like the ends of novels, right?
[31:16]When you're kind of like, is this any good?
[31:18]Do I like this?
[31:19]And you just got to trust and just keep going.
[31:24]I love it.
[31:25]And is there another book?
[31:26]There is another book.
[31:27]I am working on it at the moment.
[31:29]I would love to talk about it, but if I do,
[31:31]it'll ruin the magic for me at this moment.
[31:34]So I'm not gonna say anything about it,
[31:36]but it's another novel.
[31:38]And yeah, similar tone or no?
[31:42]Yes, similar tone.
[31:44]Similar tone.
[31:45]And I would say probably another novel,
[31:49]like the wedding people in which we watched
[31:51]someone sort of get increasingly involved
[31:53]with something that they're really not supposed
[31:55]to be involved with.
[31:57]And I'm finding a lot of fun with that kind of narrative
[32:00]right now.
[32:01]Yeah, that is very fun.
[32:03]Oh, I love it.
[32:04]Alison, thank you.
[32:05]This is really awesome.
[32:06]I love the book.
[32:08]I love learning the backstory.
[32:09]I'm so sorry about your brother.
[32:11]And yeah, it's, I can't wait to see it debut
[32:15]and do amazingly well, not debut.
[32:16]I mean, I'm not, I get, oh, I know where you are.
[32:20]I can't wait to watch it launch and really take off.
[32:24]There we go.
[32:24]Well, thank you, thank you for being such a supporter
[32:28]of the book and taking the time to talk to me today.
[32:30]It's been a lot of fun.
[32:32]Yeah, well, I'll let you go back to, you know, paving
[32:35]the driveway or whatever.
[32:36]Please, no, I can't.
[32:37]I can't sit down here.
[32:38]Yeah, all right, good luck.
[32:43]Thanks.
[32:43]Bye.
[32:46]Thanks for listening.
[32:47]To moms, don't have time to read books.
[32:49]If you love it, please leave a review and follow us
[32:52]on social at city Owens and at city readers.