Inside the Entertainment Industry! Jen Rudin, CONFESSIONS OF A CASTING DIRECTOR: Help Actors Land Any Role with Secrets from Inside the Audition Room
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and I am the host of this podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
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[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Jen Rudin is the author of Confessions of the Casting Director. Jen grew up in New York City
[0:36]and was a professional child actor from age 8 until 17. She's an award-winning casting director
[0:41]who spent seven years as a casting executive at the Walt Disney Company, casting such
[0:45]beloved movies as the incredibles, chicken little, and the princess in the frog and overseeing
[0:50]the casting for the Broadway and touring companies of the Lion King and Mary Poppins.
[0:55]She is the proud author of Confessions of the Casting Director published by Harper Collins,
[0:59]which is also a podcast. Jen has written for Newsweek USA Today, the forward,
[1:03]feller, and backstage, and is currently working on a memoir. She's also a marathon runner
[1:09]and proud running coach for New York Roadrunners. For more info, visit www.genrudin.com
[1:15]and follow Jen on Instagram at rudinj. Welcome, Jen. Thank you so much for coming on
[1:20]Momstone Have Time to Read Books to discuss Confessions of the Casting Director.
[1:25]Thank you. I'm such a fan of the show, so it's such a, it's just, I'm so glad I reached out.
[1:30]It's so exciting to finally see you in person. I feel like we have similar paths from
[1:34]growing up on the upper east side and would have been certainly friends in school if we've
[1:38]met way back. Absolutely. I'm delighted to have you on. Okay, tell everybody about the book,
[1:45]life story, how you became a casting director, all of that first. So I grew up in New York City in
[1:51]the 80s and desperately wanted to be on the Brady Bunch. I'm watching the reruns in syndication
[1:56]with my sister not realizing that they were reruns. So I wrote a letter to channel five way back
[2:02]when and said if you ever need to replace Cindy Brady call me here's where I live and here's my phone
[2:07]number. And then after that, I wrote to Annie on Broadway and wrote and I actually got a really
[2:13]nice letter back from the stage manager saying, you know, we will, you know, let you know when
[2:17]the auditions are. So I loved the love vote eight is enough. I just wanted to be acting and thankfully
[2:23]because I grew up in New York City, I had access. And so there was a friend of mine in third grade
[2:28]as father worked for an ad agency. He connected me with an agent and I started auditioning at age eight
[2:34]and then really stepped it up at age 10. I went to stage or manner, the famous theater camp that
[2:40]so many people have gone to and Gene Fox was a manager and she was just starting her company. So I
[2:44]was one of her clients. So I was really competitive and I say competitively auditioning from age 10
[2:50]until I graduated high school and said, I'm done and I have to go to university of Wisconsin and
[2:56]have a normal college experience. This is really scary and toxic. I mean, I think because I lived
[3:01]in the city, my mother took me to the auditions. I think if I'd lived in New Jersey or anywhere else,
[3:06]she would have never done it. But for us after school, you know, you grew up in the city. It's
[3:10]across town bus or a subway and that's just what I did. But I always knew that these auditions were
[3:16]so I just I couldn't take the pressure. You know, I would lie awake at night and I would be praying
[3:22]to God the only time I ever prayed like, please, please, please. I want that commercial. Please
[3:27]give me this TV show and the highs and the lows. I just it's it's it's really it's so tough on
[3:34]you when you're young. And I pretty much knew I wanted to be a casting director around age 12
[3:39]because I have a photographic memory and I collected all those play bills and I read New York
[3:44]magazine and I knew who replaced who in what Broadway shows. And at one audition when I was 12,
[3:50]I looked at the casting director and I thought, well, she's she's got a great job because she's
[3:54]making all of the kids here feel comfortable. They were mixing and matching these different groups.
[3:59]And I thought that's probably what I'll do some days beyond the other side of the camera. And so,
[4:04]you know, after college, I interned for casting directors, worked at talent agency and
[4:09]and that's how it goes. So I actually wanted to be a casting director as opposed to some
[4:13]people who sort of fall into it right after not making it as an actor or not being able to make
[4:19]it as a director. But I I wanted to do it. Wow. So what were what were some of the highlights
[4:25]of age 10 to 18? Well, I got really close to growing pains that ABC show. I mean, I would say it's
[4:34]I mean, really close. So I knew the deal was already done. If I got the TV show, I knew what the
[4:41]what my salary would be per episode and I was going into eighth grade. And so my mother and I
[4:45]were going to have to move to LA and leave my sister and my father. And I mean, waiting for that
[4:52]news and then not getting it. I always tell people that rejection that you have when you're 12,
[4:57]like not getting into Wesleyan early decision, like meant nothing compared to thinking you're
[5:03]going to be a TV star and on the cover of People magazine. But I do think in hindsight, of course,
[5:08]I hate watch the show for many years, you went on and on and on. And I think ultimately it's
[5:14]probably a good thing that I didn't get onto a TV show because who knows if I'd be sitting here
[5:19]now, you know, together and with my life in one piece. It's it's so hard to know what would have
[5:24]happened. But I feel like that was a really tough moment. One of the best moments was doing an
[5:29]episode of Sesame Street in 1987 when Louise needed glasses and I was Jennifer with glasses and
[5:35]in a really sweet twist of fate, I get to do some casting for Sesame Street now. So it's really
[5:41]always exciting. And I think for me, like being on Sesame Street and having my parents who were
[5:46]totally not stage parents lose there. If I can say like lose their shit on set, they both took me
[5:52]and they both were like off with big birds nest in the back. They couldn't find my parents
[5:58]when we were done filming. And that was the one moment that my parents kind of
[6:03]kind of went, oh my god, this is really cool. Because other than that, they were just not, you know,
[6:07]nobody ever got excited about anything until there was a job. And I think that's again, having
[6:12]good parents is why I'm here today to talk to you. I went to the set of Sesame Street when I was in
[6:20]kindergarten. It was the coolest thing. Yeah, it's crazy. And even a couple years ago, we were doing
[6:26]callbacks there to cast a new role. And you're like, you're on the set and Cookie Monster comes up
[6:32]to you. And suddenly you're taking a picture and you can't, you can't not get excited because it
[6:36]really is. It's your childhood, but it's also, it's also these, these, these, these muppets and
[6:42]characters that you love. So it's really an honor. I'm going to start some casting for them again
[6:46]really soon. And it's just like, nothing makes me, I mean, Sesame Street. They did it first, you know,
[6:50]they were the first people to really do that type of kids programming. So you mentioned your
[6:56]photographic memory and the importance of knowing like who's starring in what and all of the
[6:59]backstory and everything. What are the things you need to have? What are the qualities, characteristics?
[7:04]You need to have to be a good casting director. Yes. Well, my husband would, would, would laugh
[7:08]and say you have a selective photographic memory. You can't remember where to put the knives and the
[7:13]drawers or how to organize things. But certainly when it comes to that, I think you have to always,
[7:18]your brain is sort of your resource, right? So remembering who was in what show or where you might
[7:23]have seen them, having a curiosity, I sit there and watch TV and I'm always looking people up
[7:28]to see who is in that show. And you're really putting together a puzzle, right? Because ultimately,
[7:34]if you were the directors, maybe I want to make your dreams come true and give you the best possible
[7:38]cast. But a lot of that has to do with like the timing and who's available. And also you can't be
[7:44]too pushy because it's your sort of the consultant on the project. So ultimately, I worked for
[7:50]cast director who said casting is like bartending. You want to present five choices to your director,
[7:54]your producer and everybody else, let them choose, even though you know, of course, who the
[8:00]right choice is. So I was at Disney for a long time as a casting executive, casting the animated
[8:04]movies. And we were doing the princess and the frog. And Anika Noni Rose was the first woman to
[8:10]come into audition. I knew that she had all of the qualifications, the MFA and acting, the,
[8:16]the singing, the Tony award from Carolina change. I knew she was the right person to cast.
[8:20]But if you shove your opinions at your director, they're going to think you're really pushy and
[8:25]they're not going to want to listen to you. So you have to sort of be diplomatic about it and
[8:29]pragmatic. And sometimes you feel like you're a therapist or a mother or handholding. I will also
[8:35]share that we can include this perhaps in the notes. I wrote an op-ed for USA Today once the
[8:41]the casting directors got their Oscar category. And for so many years, nobody even thinks about
[8:47]the casting by the time the actor is winning the award because they've been just said and they've
[8:52]made the movie. And the truth is way back when the casting director was the one who connected things
[8:58]and introduced people to the director. And so we're psyched now because it's going to be for 2025
[9:04]that they finally have that, that category. So yeah, you got to have like, you got to have really
[9:08]good people skills. I love, you know, it's sort of like sometimes when you're doing casting
[9:12]sessions, again, we stopped obviously during COVID, but it's like you're like you have a store
[9:17]and like you're open for retail from 10 in the morning till six and sometimes there's 60 people
[9:22]coming to audition for you and you have to keep things moving because you're on a schedule,
[9:26]but also be nice and friendly and try to get the best performance out of them. Now, of course,
[9:31]so much as self tapes. So there's less of that in person. But yeah, people skills diplomacy, all of
[9:37]that. I feel like I've gotten to know casting a tiny bit just because my husband started a
[9:43]production company. And so I've, you know, heard this person's available, this person's not available
[9:49]and it seems almost impossible like to put the puzzle together of the cast and the director and
[9:55]the writer and the this and the setting and did it like, I feel like it is.
[10:00]And I just don't know about it, but is there some sort of like website or grid or why isn't there?
[10:06]If like who is available when like do you have that all mapped out and excel somewhere or something?
[10:11]Well, it's hard. I mean, it's sort of like being Nancy Drew, right? One of my favorite books.
[10:15]I'm sure you read Nancy Drew and you're younger. You're sort of you're getting these clues together
[10:18]and you're trying to figure it all out. And it's kind of a catch 22. Like I worked with Peter
[10:22]Bigdon of it on his last movie before he passed away and we couldn't get the financing until we
[10:27]had a star. And you can't get a star sometimes until you have financing because no star wants
[10:32]to be the very first person to say yes to the project. It's not sexy. They want to know who else
[10:36]is involved. So you're kind of you're sort of working in all of these these different angles.
[10:41]And once we had Owen Wilson attached, then we had Jennifer Aniston and suddenly then we were
[10:47]financed and off they went to film the movie. But it was like five years of trying to get attachments
[10:52]and he was Peter Bigdon of it. So I feel like it's it's truly a miracle when something can happen
[10:57]and the stars can align. Hopefully the casting director is brought on at a time when you're really
[11:01]in production and ready to go. But many times you're asked to make lists and basically offer your
[11:06]services while they're putting the cast together. So yeah. And it's a lot of clues like
[11:10]Zippy Owens is not available because she's, you know, she's in Australia filming, you know,
[11:15]Kingdom of the Apes for six months. Okay. You're not available, but is Sushi Piero our beloved
[11:20]is she available for and then you just go down the list. So it's it's really complicated.
[11:26]It's a lot of logistics and a lot of knock lamorous moments. The glamorous moments are obviously
[11:31]somebody's going to win the Oscar in 2025 for best casting going to the red carpet and seeing
[11:36]the movie finally having an actor, you know, being able to call an actor and tell them that they
[11:41]got the part. Those are the moments that are really joyous for sure. That's amazing. So is there
[11:46]the way there's campaigning for movies to an Oscar? Will there be campaigning for the casting director
[11:50]category? I don't know. I mean, look, BAFTA gave the awards out and you know, we have
[11:58]categories in the Emmys, but we'll see what happens. And it's tricky because, you know, somebody
[12:04]could win for best director, but not best casting, but we could win for best films. So I don't know.
[12:08]I mean, look, they're just awards, but we all grew up dreaming of winning them. And certainly
[12:13]the casting directors have the audio awards. I've won a few, been nominated for a bunch. And that
[12:17]was our version of the Academy Awards. And it's funny because you'd go to the ceremony and the
[12:21]casting directors would give these long speeches. And we realized it was because this was our moment,
[12:26]you know, finally our moment to have, you know, to say thank you to all the people that, you know,
[12:31]were part of the production. And how does an aspiring actor get on your radar? Oh, boy, I mean,
[12:37]I'm sold school. So back in the days before the internet, you would go to showcases. You would go to
[12:43]to the Juilliard Showcase and see all of the actors for that year. You would go to NYU. You
[12:48]would see, as my father used to call them, pieces and spaces like crappy theater on the lower east
[12:53]side and see somebody. And so you're constantly looking now. It's so much easier because we can sit
[12:59]here and do Instagram and we could go to people's websites and we couldn't go to YouTube and watch
[13:03]them. So we can actually, technologies actually made it better and faster. But as I always
[13:09]like to say, just because there's technology doesn't necessarily mean you're a good actor,
[13:13]so you could have a gazillion people following you on Instagram. But does that mean you can act?
[13:18]I don't know. And sometimes you have to do casting based on the amount of followers that somebody
[13:23]has. So it's keeping your mind open. I have done so much kids casting at Disney. I was always
[13:28]overseeing the Lion King Broadway casting in the Mary Poppins casting. So I was the person who'd be
[13:33]on the subway with my husband and be like, Oh my God, look at that kid. He's got this funk.
[13:37]He should come to our open call auditions or we would be like at a vacation place in Vermont and
[13:43]I would hear some kids voice for voice over and turn around to be like, Hi, your kid has a great
[13:48]voice and my husband would be mortified because, you know, I look like I'm nuts. But really it's
[13:54]listening and finding kids who have that spark and also for grownups too. If there's somebody
[14:00]you can't take your eyes off of, they've got something that keeps you watching. And we don't know
[14:04]what that is, but we know it when we see it. I feel like I've never actually really wanted to be
[14:10]a movie star. But I've now that I've been trying to sell books. I'm like, if only I were a famous
[14:17]movie star, I could sell this book. You know, like as a means to it. And it's true like you need
[14:24]that celebrity. It really helps. And now, especially I'm so listen Lisa Sharkey and Harper Collins
[14:29]published Confessions of a casting director. And I remember a couple of things that she told me
[14:34]one is she said you sell one book at a time. So which is true. And every single time somebody would
[14:39]reach out and send me a note that they love the book. I'd say, great, can you put a note on Amazon?
[14:44]Would you do a review? Would you take a picture on Instagram and of the book? Because it's nice
[14:49]that you emailed me, but I want to send it back out there. So yeah, one book at a time, it's hard.
[14:55]And now, of course, celebrity status. I think you get book deals much easier if you're
[14:59]celebrity than you as a, you know, regular people like us, but you have your own imprint. So now
[15:04]you have control. Oh, well, I don't publish, I don't publish my own books. But you know,
[15:10]but anyway, yeah, it's funny. How are you finding it marketing a book? Well, I did a lot of a lot of
[15:18]stuff on my own. You know, even though I had like a publicist at Harper Collins, I just felt like
[15:23]you have to do that fine line because you want to promote your book, but you don't want to be
[15:27]obnoxious, right? And so another thing that I learned from Lisa Sharkey was, you know, I kept my
[15:33]mouth really quiet about my, my book deal until there was something to do, right? And so I didn't
[15:39]tell anybody or didn't make any public announcements until there was an Amazon landing page to
[15:44]pre order. So I felt like, you know, people see your post, they want to have something to do. They
[15:49]want to have a place to go. And so now it's like, yeah, you can like, here's where you can get
[15:54]the book. But at the early stages, I didn't want to, I didn't want to announce anything too soon
[15:59]because you kind of want to gear it up when you're ready. But yeah, it's complicated to try to do
[16:04]that. And that's why people, I mean, I always say like go to the dentist and hire a publicist,
[16:09]go to an accountant, like we need support and help because I'm not a publicist. I'm good at my
[16:15]own publicity. But to really look at what that structure is and how you do it, then I did turn it
[16:20]into a podcast during COVID because I wanted to, you know, I wanted to talk more about auditions.
[16:26]But yeah, it's one book at a time, you know. And we're not, if you did the math for the amount of time
[16:32]it took to write the book and sit in the library and do the book, this is, you don't do it,
[16:36]you're not doing it to make money, you're doing it for the love. And it was hard.
[16:40]One of the things I will say is that a thousand casting directors said to me, I want to write,
[16:44]you know, the book too. And I felt like saying, okay, do you know how hard it was, how much work it
[16:49]was to sit in the library and turn off the internet and write your book. And you know,
[16:55]I mean, that's always where you always ask the guests on your show like, how do you actually sit
[16:59]down and do it? And that's, you know, it's so much, it's so much love and work and discipline
[17:06]to write your book. How did you do it? So I, you know, my parents, my dad's a rabbi, my mom,
[17:11]my parents are writers too. And we went to the New York Society library on 79th between Madison
[17:16]and Park. And that's where Wendy Wasserstein and Lillian Hellman wrote. And so there were times
[17:21]when I was writing my book up there on the fifth floor, my parents were there too. And so sometimes
[17:25]we'd meet for lunch and then come back. But I have to say, it's, it's, I mean, the hardest thing is
[17:31]you have to turn off everything or set timers, right? Because if you start to see your emails
[17:37]coming in, then we're down the rabbit hole of, of reading emails and all of that. So I would
[17:42]sit there. I would turn off all of the notifications and I would do my work from like nine to 12
[17:48]and then around noon, I was done because I'm a morning person. And then I would go home and start
[17:53]the casting or go to auditions and start my day. So I think keeping the expectations of, okay,
[17:58]if I could just do this for a few hours a day and then the rest of the day do my other stuff,
[18:03]then you don't have that pressure of sitting there for eight hours. I mean, you're a mom with kids,
[18:08]I have step kids and, and you know, I don't have little ones in the house. I don't have to pick
[18:13]up anybody from school, but it is still really hard. And 2024 started and I, I said to myself, I've
[18:21]got to just start writing again. And the only way to do that is to, you know, as I was joking,
[18:27]stop drinking and start writing, you know, like really focused, but it is, it's really hard to do
[18:35]it. It's really hard. And it doesn't, you know, and then you sit there and you're like, okay,
[18:40]I'm supposed to be working on my book. And then, you know, the Peloton's here and then the get
[18:43]throwing a load of laundry and then go to, you know, go to the supermarket. And the next thing,
[18:47]you know, it's four o'clock. I have never been derailed from writing by a Peloton.
[18:54]Well, I was a talent agent for a few years. And I did represent Tunde Oh, you know, so I do,
[18:59]you know, I think for me, listen, I'm a runner. So like my mornings, my morning is my best time
[19:05]so I have to split my time. Sometimes I want to go out and do a long run. Sometimes I want to
[19:08]sit and do my writing, right? So it just depends. But, you know, you can't do everything. That's
[19:13]the problem. So you have to make those choices. So I don't know. But it's, it's really hard. And
[19:18]every time I listen to a podcast, I always want the end question, which is how do you,
[19:22]but what's your tip for sitting down and writing? I mean, everybody wants to know.
[19:27]I know. And it's agonizing. It's agonizing. I kept thinking, I'll fit in writing. I'll just fit
[19:33]it in around the edges. And you don't. So finally, I'm like, I think I have to put it in my
[19:37]calendar. I think I'm going to have to put it in my calendar. But I think you have to ask also,
[19:41]what's your time of day, right? And then so I'm really great in the morning. I'm wide awake. It's
[19:47]when the best, you know, things come to me in the morning. I do the morning journaling pages. I
[19:51]sort of have a final draft open and I'm dialogging with different parts of the brain, right?
[19:56]The running part, the writing part and working things out.
[20:00]And then at about two in the afternoon, I'm done.
[20:03]That's a good time to do emails and phone calls and casting and sort of the busy work.
[20:07]I'm done. Then I had another writer friend say to me,
[20:10]that's when you should try to do some writing, right? Because you're, you know,
[20:14]you force yourself or as a runner, I'm a morning runner. And then I'm also a running coach
[20:19]for New York Roadrunners. Well, sometimes we have, we have to meet at six 30 at night to run.
[20:23]And that's not my favorite time, but it does. It works a different part of your brain.
[20:27]So I try to be flexible, but it's sometimes an airplane is great. I know Glenn and Doyle.
[20:33]I'm a big fan of hers. And she says sometimes she's strapped in on the airplane seat.
[20:37]She can do it. Yeah. Wow. And I love the essay that you wrote for Mother's Day about
[20:43]your new grand child and, you know, your old path to what it means to be a caregiver and all of that.
[20:50]That was beautiful. Thank you. I wanted to send it to you. I'm so proud because,
[20:54]and that's the Sue Shapiro sort of working with Sue. Like, I am divorced like you. And when
[21:00]I think back to again, Glenn and Doyle saying like right from the scar, not the wound. And
[21:06]there's so much, I think that you go through when you, when you go through a divorce and you,
[21:10]you want to have a happy ending, you want to meet somebody, you did. I did. And you don't know
[21:14]if that's going to happen. And for me, I, I met my husband, Angie and the girls were out of college.
[21:19]And I was like, all right, I got grown stepdaughter. But on the flip side, I've missed out on,
[21:24]you know, you look at Instagram people are going to proms now and, you know, bar mitzvahs and
[21:30]and summer camp and all these, these parts of motherhood that I just didn't experience,
[21:35]but I now get to have the baby side of it, which is, which is really nice and be that way. So
[21:41]thank you. I did, I got lucky, but I have to say it's everyone's like, oh, a fairy tale ending. I'm
[21:46]like, oh, you have no idea. And you know, too, you have no idea what it's like to be going through
[21:53]a divorce and trying to rebuild your life after that. Yeah. So perhaps there's a novel in there.
[21:59]I've started, you know, I wrote a play in grad school at NYU called Beautiful Pasadena that was
[22:04]about, you know, my marriage and the destruction of our apartment in the bathroom as the remodel
[22:09]was happening and the economy tanked. I wrote about that, you know, I've written it as a novel,
[22:14]I've written and different from his perspective, my perspective, but now it's like seems like it's
[22:20]a lifetime ago, you're divorced, my divorce anyway. Mine too. But that's the pain, you know, you can't
[22:28]like another thing about being a writer is I spent like grad school at NYU like writing like
[22:33]about teen actors and stage moms and sort of all this, you know, talent agents like kind of
[22:37]surfacing stuff and every single professor I had was like, you have to go deep, you have to go
[22:43]deep if you're going to actually get anything out there. And I think that is writers too, the
[22:48]hardest thing, like confessions of a cast director was so fun to write because I lived it and I wanted
[22:54]to give advice to actors. I mean, truly the book is for actors. It's not how to become a casting
[22:58]director. It's how to go on these auditions and be prepared. Yeah. You know, and that's the easy
[23:04]stuff to write the hard stuff is the, you know, the heartbreak of growing pains, the heartbreak of,
[23:10]you know, of not being a TV star when you want to be one when you're 12. What is, let's say there
[23:15]are parents listening whose kids want to be actors. What should they know? What should the kids know
[23:20]in just a couple bullet points? I mean, here, I always say like, look, when you sign up to play soccer,
[23:25]you get your soccer uniform and you're guaranteed your schedule of games. And when you decide you
[23:29]want to go on auditions, there's no guarantee of anything. It costs money to go to auditions, to
[23:34]self tape to work with coaches. You come into New York City for the audition that costs money,
[23:38]right? And if you don't get the part, you've got to come back on Tuesday for the next audition.
[23:43]So you have to understand and manage those expectations that you can put in all this time with
[23:48]the training. And you might book a job or you might not. I would also say the kids have such a
[23:52]small window. So today's nine year old is going to be 14 tomorrow. So there's this tiny window where
[23:59]they can do it. You know, at Disney Channel, I did so much casting for them and the age was like 11.
[24:04]You know, like, but then suddenly if you're like 14, it's over for that. And you can't,
[24:10]you're done with Disney Channel's time to move on to other things. But listen, I think if you're
[24:14]kid, if they want to do it, they want to do it. And you, as a parent, you want your kids to pursue
[24:20]their dreams. It's just that I would tell them to buy the book to read, you know, the stage moms
[24:25]chapter, because it's, I interviewed hundreds of parents who had been on tour in the sacrifices that
[24:31]they made. And, and then when they decide they don't want to do it, that's when you go back to
[24:36]soccer because you know that you can always, you can always play. But it's, it's hard. I do think
[24:41]it's about the parents because, look, I have lots of friends from theater camp and we're all still
[24:45]in show business in some different capacity. But I think it's up to the parents to try to manage
[24:50]those expectations of what's going to happen. And I don't know how you manage heartbreak like that.
[24:55]I mean, for me, my mom always said, look, you know, don't get excited until we sign a contract.
[25:00]Well, when you're like lying in bed at 11 o'clock at night and you're nine years old,
[25:04]praying to God that you could get it. I mean, you don't understand about, you know, contracts and
[25:09]all of that. And you just, it's just, it's really hard. You have to have a really, a really
[25:14]thick disposition, a really, a really strong sense of character to be able to endure it. But boy,
[25:19]seeing your kid on stage on Broadway, I mean, the joy, you know, and then for the other kids,
[25:27]they're jealous. So there's like all these highs and lows. I think it's, it's just neat to be
[25:33]able to give kids the experience of being either in a play on a field, like working as part of a
[25:41]team like that is a really great thing to produce something together. I think that's in whatever
[25:48]format. I think it's a really great developmental thing to do. Yeah. I mean, I now I'm all about
[25:53]kids running, right? So I raise money for team for kids and getting kids to run and be out there.
[25:58]And it's funny because I was athletic, but then I chose to quit sports to play to, to, you know,
[26:04]to do the acting. And so I look back now and I'm like, what if I'd stayed in sports and not
[26:09]done this acting thing? Maybe I'd be, you know, in a different, I'd be in a different career.
[26:14]I'd be working for Peloton or something in New York Roadrunners. But, you know, you just, I think
[26:18]you're right. You want kids to have an organization and a plan and feel fulfilled. The problem
[26:24]with the acting is that it's so crazy, you know, that there isn't, there's no trajectory. There's
[26:29]no one way to do it. So, you know, every time we try to go on vacation when I was a kid is when I'd
[26:33]have to combat it back to the city for a callback or something. And, you know, you just get so excited.
[26:38]I mean, I think that's made me so, I was so sensitive to the whole thing. And I would get so
[26:43]excited and start to spend the money, right? If I booked a national network commercial,
[26:48]I would start to be like, okay, I just couldn't tolerate it. In my 20s, I auditioned again. I
[26:53]write about it in the book. And I just didn't have it in me. And I just threw my headshots in a,
[26:57]in a garbage can one day and said, I'm, I'm done. I can't do this. I, you know, need some stability here.
[27:03]Yep. Wow. Jen, so fascinating. I feel like I could talk to you all day just with all the stories
[27:08]that you write about and talk about and all of it. So thank you for sharing. And I hope our
[27:14]pads continue to, oh, yeah, no, I'm so thrilled. And JenRuden.com, you know, there it is. It's out there.
[27:21]And I'm such a fan of the show. You have gotten me. I really, I'm, I'm your perfect consumer. I
[27:25]listened to your podcast. I buy the book. Thank you. All right. You know, and I try to buy not from
[27:30]the library. I really try to buy everybody's books. And it's just, I also love that, that it's,
[27:34]these are quick episodes because everyone's so busy. And so like, yeah, half hour,
[27:39]pulling their laundry or going for a run and listening to, to moms don't have time to read books.
[27:43]So thank you so much. Oh, thank you. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. All right.
[27:48]Thank you. Okay. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books. If you
[27:55]love it, please leave a review and follow us on social at city Owens and at city readers.