A USA Today Bestseller! Catherine Mack, EVERY TIME I GO ON VACATION, SOMEONE DIES
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zippy Owens or join the community at Zippy Readers.
[0:31]Catherine Mack is the author of Every Time I Go on Vacation Someone Dies, a novel.
[0:36]Catherine Mack is the pseudonym for the USA Today and a Globe and Mail Best-selling author
[0:42]of Over a dozen novels. Her books are approaching two million copies sold worldwide and have been
[0:48]translated into multiple languages, including French, German, Portuguese, and Polish. Television
[0:54]rights to every time I go on vacation someone dies, and its forthcoming sequels sold in a major
[1:00]auction to Fox TV for development into a series with Mack writing the pilot script.
[1:06]A dual, Canadian, and U.S. citizen, she splits her time between Canada and various warmer locations in
[1:12]the U.S. Welcome, Catherine. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read
[1:16]Books to discuss. Every time I go on vacation, someone dies, a novel. Thanks for having me.
[1:22]I'm excited. This is also, by the way, on my list of summer reads, recommended summer reads,
[1:27]so I know I just saw that. I posted about it. Thank you for making the book. Of course,
[1:32]I really loved it. You're so clever. I mean, the whole thing, even when you like break the
[1:37]fourth. Well, I mean, it's really clever how you did this book. Really, thank you. Yeah, I was
[1:42]trying to push myself to do something different. So yeah, so tell listeners about the book.
[1:50]So the book is about an author named Eleanor Dash. She has a long-running mystery series where
[1:56]the protagonist detective is a man named Connor Smith, but he is based on a real person that she
[2:01]met in Italy 10 years earlier. And he's driving her insane. And so she's decided to kill him off
[2:08]in the books. And while on book tour with him in Italy for the 10th anniversary of the first book,
[2:14]and he comes up to her right after she's made that decision and says someone's trying to kill me.
[2:20]Oh my gosh. Well, the way you write with this hilarious voice, very personal, like very open,
[2:27]talking to the reader at times, talking like interior monologue. It's the voice is great. This is like
[2:34]one of my favorite parts, but also the clever way in which you structure the book and all of it.
[2:39]So how did you like take me back from the beginning of this particular book, or maybe
[2:44]go back even further because I know this is not your first book. So no, no, that's fine. That's fine.
[2:49]So yeah, I mean, I started my first book was published in 2010 in Canada 2012 in the US. And it
[2:55]was would be called the romcom now, but it was it was called chicklet back then. And then I transitioned
[3:01]away from that into mystery thrillers, you know, sociological suspense. And I had been thinking
[3:08]about moving away from that because that's a dark place writing thrillers, it's dark, you know.
[3:15]And I wrote a couple of romcoms under a different pseudonym. And I really had fun writing them,
[3:20]and it was nice sort of accessing that and sort of so much easier to write in a way,
[3:25]not that those books aren't complex, but they're lighter for the writer.
[3:28]I just rhymed there unintentionally.
[3:32]And so I've been sort of kicking around an idea of trying to marry the mystery thriller side
[3:37]of things with romcoms. And I had started working on a different project that just wasn't
[3:41]gelling. And I wasn't able to leave with my husband two summers ago on a 10 day tour,
[3:47]not for my books, but just for fun. And I was talking, I have no idea why about Ms. Marple.
[3:55]And I was like, why does anybody invite her anywhere every time she goes,
[4:00]somebody dies? Like, why would you ever extend this invite? And then it just sort of popped into
[4:05]my head every time I go on vacation, someone dies. And that was very excited because I was like,
[4:11]okay, that's a really good title, but I need a story that fits it. And so I had an idea
[4:16]that I'd had for years and years and years. And it even pitched to an editor once before
[4:20]about a writer who had a long-running series who was sick of that person. And the original iteration
[4:26]of the book, they were at a big book conference and a book expo and the protagonist dies. And then
[4:33]all the mystery writers try and solve the mystery. And actually Jamie Hendrix wrote,
[4:37]had a book out last year that was a very similar concept. You know, things are weird, right?
[4:42]Anyway, so I had that sitting in a, in my drawer of abandoned book ideas. And I thought if I tweaked
[4:49]it and put it into this, that the two could work. So that was a sort of starting premise from that.
[4:54]And actually have like, in my notes app on my phone notes with the title and her name is there.
[5:01]And some key characters and key points are there from like August 2022. And then I started writing
[5:07]when I got home. Yeah, the idea always was to make it funny and to really sort of lean into that.
[5:13]And it developed over the course of putting together the material that we took out to try and get a
[5:19]deal with my agent who was really just encouraging me to just lean into the voice like more,
[5:25]more and more. That was what she was always saying every time. More of this, more of this, more of this.
[5:31]And eventually really in the last round before we went out, I had the idea of including footnotes.
[5:36]Yeah, I was about to put it up. And I think about is what like really gel the whole concept together
[5:42]was the addition of the footnotes. So yeah, the footnotes are hilarious. I mean, I feel like that's
[5:47]all you even need to read are just all the footnotes that could be of the novel. You might be a
[5:51]little confused, but yeah, I'm kidding. There's a middle grade novel called the umbrella maker
[5:56]sent by Katrina Lena, who actually is the manager of my bookstore. And she does that for
[6:03]middle grade. And she had so much pushback, she said that the editor and everybody were like,
[6:08]kids don't understand footnotes. Nobody likes to read footnotes. Please take them out. And she's
[6:12]like, no, that's what makes it kind of funny and interesting. So she really, really pushed. And I
[6:16]thought that was like the best part of her book. And I feel the same with yours because it's so original.
[6:20]And it just adds another dimension where you're like engaging with the text in a different way.
[6:26]Yeah, you have pushback. So I obviously your agent. No, no, so I didn't in the sense that I actually
[6:31]want to include first put notes in early draft of my first novel that got published spin,
[6:37]actually had footnotes in it. So something I've wanted to do for really long time. So I
[6:40]did get pushback back back then. And I think one of the very first footnotes in the book is
[6:45]Eleanor saying, I wonder if my editor is going to let me keep these. I doubt it, right? And I was
[6:52]looking enough to have several people interested in purchasing the book. And so I had meetings with
[6:56]those various editors and Katherine Richards who I ended up going with. The first thing she said is
[7:02]you're keeping the footnotes. And I was like, hey, this is going to work. Other people were like,
[7:08]maybe less footnotes. Like, no, nobody said no footnotes. But I think to people who were not like,
[7:13]wholeheartedly excited about the footnotes, I just knew that they didn't fully get the book.
[7:18]So and you know what, look, not everybody loves the footnotes in the advanced reader copy.
[7:23]The digital advanced reader copy, if you had like an older Kindle, they didn't always work that
[7:27]well. But the actual official copy, so if you're trying to decide listeners, you know what to read,
[7:34]the ebook is fine now. There's, if you see reviews that say there's issues with the footnotes,
[7:38]there really isn't anymore. But it was, it was a fun thing to explore the audio book narrator.
[7:43]Oh, yeah. Yeah. So Elizabeth Evans, who is amazing and has a whole fandom of her own.
[7:50]She and I had conversations about it. And, and she pitched a couple of different ways to do it.
[7:54]And we talked it through. And so there are more of sides in the audio book, which I think works,
[7:58]like you don't want to stop and be like, what? No one, you know, and then read it like it's an
[8:03]academic text. So they're integrated into the text in a different way. But I think that that's kind
[8:08]of fun. Like I think it's cool that the audiobook experiences a bit different than, then reading
[8:13]the book itself, right? Yeah. Oh, I don't know if I could go listen to it now. You know, I have friends
[8:17]who only listen to audio books because of the narrators, like they don't even do it based on
[8:22]the authors anymore. Which I didn't realize that was a thing. I guess that's what you meant by
[8:26]their own fandom. But yeah, well, yeah, and I'm sort of realized that when I mean Julia Wheelan,
[8:30]who I know and who's also an author, but she narrated, I met her years ago, and then she ended up
[8:36]narrating a couple of my books. And I realized it with her that she had that fandom. And then
[8:42]I wasn't familiar with Elizabeth's work, but I can see in the, the reviews and the things I get
[8:47]tagged on is exactly that. It's like, oh my God, she's the narrator of my most favorite book of
[8:51]all time, which I think that's so cool. Like, that is so cool. Yeah. That is so neat. Oh my gosh.
[8:57]Well, the way here I dug your like so many passages. Let me, can I read a little something.
[9:01]Yeah, of course, of course. Oh, I love this little I'm not a dancer. I'm a platter thing. So this is so
[9:07]fun. I mean, you know, for authors are asked this all the time for listener. I mean, I'm sure
[9:11]everybody's on this podcast has heard this like a million times too. Like, you know, when people
[9:15]refer to themselves as plotters and pantsors or whatever. And you have like this, I mean,
[9:19]it's just so funny at the point of view. So you're, let me just start in the middle of this page,
[9:23]Serento. If I were writing this scene, I'd say that a deathly silence enveloped us, but I'm not sure
[9:28]that's quite right. I think there are at least two of us who are contemplating life instead,
[9:32]our lives and how we're still here despite numerous attempts to push us out of the frame,
[9:36]or maybe that's all of us, because it doesn't take a genius to figure out that check,
[9:40]drank Connor's champagne, and therefore caught the sentence. Someone tried to meet
[9:44]Advent. This is probably not making sense to anybody, but whatever. It could have been
[9:47]any of us who took that glass and swallowed that poison and spent their last moments on earth
[9:50]suffocating and in pain while a bunch of people stood around and did nothing. But it's hard not
[9:54]to be grateful for the little things when you watch someone die in front of you.
[10:00]Oh my god so good. Oh and then the clues that you do you have like whole pages of clues that
[10:05]was so genius. I don't think I can write this book anymore. Were you ever feeling like I don't
[10:10]think I can write this book anymore? This whole thing. Oh no, I think we're just trying to put
[10:15]myself in part of the meta concept is that Eleanor is drafting what is supposed to be her next book.
[10:22]So there's like the outline of her book in here, which eventually gets used against her.
[10:28]And right in the break in the fourth one. Yeah and so I was like if I was in the middle
[10:35]writing a book and then it started coming true, like would I even be able to keep writing it
[10:40]and I think she was expressing that. And that yeah the chapter you're referring to sort of
[10:44]two-thirds of the way and I invite the reader to help solve the mystery. So yeah it's super fun.
[10:51]Wow. It was very fun writing it which I think shows through in the end product. So
[10:58]100% responding to it that way. So it's good. People get it. People get it. Of course you
[11:03]won't get it. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah and it's not for everyone. But no book is for everyone
[11:08]right? So wow I know. But I think it's for people who like to read. Yeah I know and there's like
[11:16]lots of fun inside stuff about publishing which you know I was saying to somebody else the other
[11:21]day that like I had to be careful in the footnotes to not be me and to be Eleanor because we've had
[11:27]different publishing experiences and I'm not complaining about my publishing experience but
[11:30]my first book was not a New York Times professor or that was a runaway success. So you know
[11:35]she's had a very different experience but but still has been in publishing which I think is sort of
[11:41]a phrase that authors understand you know like even when things are going well it's still
[11:45]publishing. And just like anything you know when I was a lawyer even if things were going well
[11:50]it was still practicing laws so there's always downsides to every job. And so it was fun to like
[11:55]universalize those for for people because I think people enjoy getting that insider perspective and
[12:01]then you know after I sold my book and written it yellow face came out and I was like oh yeah and
[12:06]like look how successful that was people really want to know about the thing you know and so that's
[12:11]fun. It's fun doing that. It's fun lifting the curtain. I think people like getting a window into a
[12:16]world that gets romanticized in a lot of ways. I think in these and TV you know you see somebody like
[12:22]writing all night and then suddenly they have a book right and it's like that's just not how that
[12:27]works at all. That would be nice. Let it know definitely definitely. And I think it's also it's
[12:34]oddly I don't know if you've found this to be but like because so many people have book ideas or
[12:40]feel like they do that there's this weird thing where people like everyone kind of thinks they
[12:44]can do your job. Yes right. And nobody when I was a lawyer if I said I was a lawyer they're like oh
[12:50]I'm going to be a lawyer in a couple of years when I retire or if I had the time I'd be a lawyer
[12:54]you know. But when you tell people you write books they're like oh yeah I'm going to write a book
[13:00]you know it's like like or if I had the time I'd write books that is the thing there's no barrier
[13:06]to entry to writing a book you just like anybody you can do it but that doesn't mean anybody can
[13:11]write a book that somebody else wants to read right. That's true or book like yours which is so great
[13:17]the book that I had recently come out called blank is sort of similar and that she decides to hand
[13:22]the book in blank about the and it's a reflection on the publishing industry and how it's all about
[13:26]marketing that matters and it doesn't matter what's inside of the book. And she is also a former
[13:31]best-selling author and this is her next book but I that's like when I've been going around that's
[13:36]like what I've been talking about like what is going on publishing what does it mean how do you
[13:40]how do you do your next book how do you get over that pressure so I don't know so obviously this one
[13:45]sold at auction you said that so nicely you're like I had a couple meetings and like I know what
[13:50]that means yeah and it's so I feel like that is when the buzz starts like if you get a book at
[13:56]auction like it's already on another track not just because of the auction but just the fact you
[14:02]know what I mean it's like no a thousand percent and like something that I had never experienced
[14:06]before boy never sold a book at auction before either but was that there are book scouts out there
[14:12]who hold a job is to scout things and so right after we sold the book we actually took it out
[14:20]in Hollywood to like get it try and sell the the rights and and you know people already had the book
[14:26]like before my agent went out with the people who he hadn't sent it to yet were like no we want to
[14:32]make an offer up so that was like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that was really crazy going through that
[14:39]process and and then and to see it come to fruition too in the sense that my publisher really
[14:45]did get behind the book they said the way they said they were going to and did everything that
[14:50]they said they were going to and you know on like we've all been there you get marketing plans
[14:55]and then you're like oh that never happened and what was this and well well but like they literally
[14:59]done everything they said they were going to and more and which has been a great experience
[15:04]for me because I've been in the business for a very long time and you know it's I don't like giving
[15:09]lessons about like what to do and I'm actually not one of those people who's like just stick to your
[15:13]dreams kids like because I think if it's no but I know people who are writers it makes them miserable
[15:20]and I'm like I don't think you should do anything that makes you miserable just because you know
[15:24]somebody on Twitter said that like it took me 17 years so you can stay here too you know I don't
[15:29]I don't think you should live your life like that if you don't want to but what I would say is that
[15:34]there's been a couple of times in my career where I really felt like I was pushing myself as a
[15:38]writer I was doing something new for me that I was very excited about and that almost without
[15:46]exception one exception but almost without exception has translated into some different level of
[15:50]success for me and my career and so I think so many authors get told like we'll just go find a big
[15:56]idea you know like like there's a big idea drawer just sitting there like sure I'll just open
[16:00]the big idea drawer and pull out the big idea and it's all fine but I think it's you know maybe
[16:06]something that's actionable is like do go find the idea that excites you like that really excites
[16:13]you and if you can find that idea and I feel like we all do have those ideas we have the book
[16:19]we're afraid to write we have the book that we feel like it's too hard for us to write you know
[16:23]but those are the ideas I think that we should excuse me pursue sort of and not thinking about
[16:30]the market and all that sort of stuff either because I think you never know right you write something
[16:36]and then the book comes out two or three years later so you can't you can't write to the market
[16:41]you can't anticipate the market all you all you can do is just write the book that excites
[16:46]you the most and the example I always give is 50 shades of gray when she was not sitting there
[16:52]going like there's a niche in the market of bubble you know like no she was writing fan fiction
[16:58]why like fan fiction because she was obsessed and it morphed into that but I think you know whatever
[17:04]you can say about those books and there's lots of negative things you could say about those books
[17:07]but they tapped into something that people really were excited about it you know you could see
[17:14]somebody more recently like Emily Henry who was writing YA before right and then you know I dealt
[17:22]highly better editor came towards like why do you write an adult contemporary romance no you know
[17:26]she had an idea for a book that probably wouldn't leave her alone and maybe her agent even said
[17:33]mmm shifting into a different category not a good idea you know like right there's always these these
[17:39]rules and in life but in publishing about stay in your lane and once you establish your brand and
[17:44]all that sort of stuff and so I think you know I think when you see people do that it often does
[17:51]create success but it means sort of shutting out all the the noise of whatever people want you
[17:57]to do next and doing what excites you the most yeah and that can be hard to do yes very
[18:05]true and great advice really awesome when you mentioned the film stuff that was going on so what
[18:11]is the plan there oh yeah so I sold the right TV rights to Fox and I am writing the pilot oh yeah
[18:20]so I've been doing that this year so that's been a another edge I mean I've written other pilots
[18:24]but I've never adapted my own work before so that's been a really fun experience and it's
[18:29]different too because TV is a different medium and film is a different medium than books and I
[18:36]always kind of laugh when say like the bridge or ten fandom are like well they changed this they
[18:40]did that and it's like yeah because that's how you make an eight hour TV show you know like you
[18:45]can't just take that book and just do it exactly like it was on the page first while you already
[18:49]have the book so why do you need that and you know that's just the way it is and so there are
[18:54]things about the main character that change over the course of over the course of writing the pilot
[19:00]so it's in my mind now there's like TV Eleanor and then there's book Eleanor and they're not
[19:05]necessarily the same person so so that's been an interesting challenge but keeping that sort of core
[19:11]voice of it and yeah that was an interesting process too in the sense of I really very much wanted
[19:16]to write have that experience to write the pilot I've been working towards that and they were great
[19:21]enough to let me do it so and we'll see what happens you know I fond of saying that the only business
[19:28]lesser than the book business is the TV and film industry so you know I'm super grateful for
[19:34]whatever has happened already and what might happen in the future but who knows you know it's all
[19:40]it's all up in the air and that industry is very influx right now they're still struggling
[19:44]to find their way out of the strike and are you working at the same time on another book
[19:49]yeah so this is a three-book series that I sold so it says in the book about the next books are
[19:55]these yeah that is true that is so funny you're yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
[20:00]So I've already written book two.
[20:01]It's called No One Was Supposed to Die at This Wedding.
[20:05]It is set up in the epilogue of this book.
[20:08]And it is set in Catalina Island off of Los Angeles.
[20:12]And it's three months later.
[20:14]Eleanor's first book is called When in Rome.
[20:16]And now they've made the movie of When in Rome.
[20:19]And two of the cast members who play Cecilia Crane,
[20:24]who is the stand in for Eleanor in the book,
[20:27]and Connor Smith, have fallen in love and are getting married.
[20:30]And so the whole cast is going to Catalina Island
[20:33]at the end of filming to have their wedding.
[20:37]But things go badly, obviously.
[20:39]And so yeah, so it's the meta publishing stuff is still there.
[20:44]But it's also behind the scenes in the film and TV world.
[20:48]And it was fun to play around because now there
[20:51]are two Connor Smiths walking around,
[20:53]who have different ideas.
[20:55]So yeah, yeah, yeah.
[20:56]And then I'm actually to have started writing book three,
[20:58]which I'll leave the details about book three
[21:01]out, not to confuse people.
[21:02]But yeah, so No One Was Supposed to Die at This Wedding
[21:04]should be coming out sometime next year.
[21:06]I'll find out soon when the pub date is.
[21:08]So fun.
[21:10]I feel like it's just, are you just elated by the whole thing?
[21:15]Yeah, it's been really nice.
[21:17]Somebody said, so the book got reviewed in the New York Times,
[21:20]which like amazing.
[21:22]Amazing.
[21:23]I cried on the internet.
[21:24]And you know, it was interesting when it happened.
[21:29]I like texted some of my friends,
[21:30]including Alyssa Friedland, who you got this list.
[21:34]And Alyssa, like FaceTime me and we started crying
[21:36]on the phone together.
[21:37]Oh, which was so, like it was just a really nice moment.
[21:41]And it was funny too, because she had sweatshirts
[21:44]for her 40th birthday.
[21:45]I was actually wearing her sweatshirt when she called me.
[21:47]So weird little moment of synchronicity.
[21:49]And her new books coming out in that top of weeks
[21:53]called the jackpot summer.
[21:54]It's really, really fun.
[21:55]You should pick it up.
[21:56]And then I was talking to another friend of mine, Liz Fenton,
[21:59]who's also an author, and I was like, oh, you know,
[22:03]do I have to go like cry on the internet?
[22:04]And I was joking.
[22:06]I was like, I'm not actually going to cry on the internet,
[22:08]but yes, I'm going to make a video
[22:09]because my book was reviewed in the New York Times.
[22:11]Like, and then I did start crying in the video.
[22:14]And I'm like, oh my God, what is happening?
[22:18]And so then you have that moment afterwards,
[22:20]like am I going to post this because it wasn't live.
[22:22]So I'm like, am I really going to post this?
[22:24]Like, for real?
[22:24]And I'm like, oh, forget it.
[22:25]Just don't overthink it post.
[22:27]And it is my post that has had the most interactions
[22:31]on TikTok, on Instagram.
[22:33]And I think people sort of do respond to that real emotion
[22:36]that I was having in the moment.
[22:37]And yeah, I made the USA Today Best out of the list.
[22:39]And it was the number one book in Canada.
[22:41]And so yeah, just like lots of really great things
[22:44]have been happening for the book.
[22:46]And yeah, it's a weird place, it's like a good place to be,
[22:50]but it's a weird place to be also.
[22:53]In the sense of you sort of hope for these things,
[22:55]and you have these like lists of like,
[22:57]I want this to happen.
[22:59]And then most of them have happened, you know,
[23:01]for the book, which is incredible.
[23:03]So yeah, it's good.
[23:04]It's a good time.
[23:06]It's still publishing.
[23:07]I still have to put my butt in the chair and write book three.
[23:12]And I'm about to get my copy edits.
[23:14]But I'm actually glad for that.
[23:15]It's been nice to have a couple of weeks
[23:17]where I was able to focus on this and everything
[23:19]that's happening.
[23:20]And then I will get back into my copy edits,
[23:23]which is, you know, I don't know about you,
[23:24]but copy edits are where I always feel like
[23:26]I'm the worst writer.
[23:28]Because I know where commas go.
[23:30]And like, you know, I mean, thank God for copy.
[23:35]Copy writers, they're incredible.
[23:38]And then yeah, sort of hunker down
[23:39]and spend this the last second half of the year
[23:42]writing book three.
[23:43]So yeah, I'm really happy for you.
[23:46]It really deserves all that success.
[23:48]It's so clever and original.
[23:50]And, you know, readers crave that.
[23:53]So it's awesome.
[23:54]Yeah.
[23:55]Thank you so much.
[23:56]Enjoy it.
[23:57]Have fun.
[23:57]Don't stress.
[23:58]I think people assume like, oh, you get on some list
[24:05]and whatever and that like you're done.
[24:08]You know, but it's not at all done.
[24:10]And it's like, well, am I going to stay on that list?
[24:13]And now what?
[24:14]And if I make sure the next one's really great.
[24:18]Right?
[24:18]They're so good.
[24:19]I think with a series too, like, you know,
[24:21]I've always written stand-lones in the past.
[24:23]And the throw of a stand-alone is that you just
[24:26]recreate a whole new world each time.
[24:29]And so, and I might have had fans of my work,
[24:32]but they're not fans of certain characters
[24:35]or certain situations and want certain things to happen
[24:38]or not happen.
[24:40]And so it's going into that and being like,
[24:44]you want people to enjoy this book as much as they
[24:46]enjoyed the last book.
[24:47]Because in a series that, excuse me,
[24:50]that is what you're looking for.
[24:51]You're not looking for a different experience.
[24:54]You're looking for the same as good.
[24:57]You know, I dread the, well, this wasn't as good
[25:00]as the first book, you know, reviews.
[25:03]Because I am stupid enough to read my reviews.
[25:06]So I do.
[25:08]I don't have the impulse control.
[25:10]But if you read all of them, they don't hurt anymore.
[25:12]Well, that's good.
[25:13]Yeah.
[25:13]I mean, it would have hurt if I'd gotten slammed
[25:15]in the New York Times that would have sucked.
[25:19]Sometimes there was one review that was so bad.
[25:21]I literally like emailed the author.
[25:22]And I'm like, I don't even know.
[25:24]You can't even be upset about this.
[25:25]It's so mean.
[25:26]Do you know what I mean?
[25:27]It's not even a few things like that.
[25:29]Oh, it's a review like that in a publication
[25:31]that I won't mention for this book.
[25:33]Yeah.
[25:34]Yeah.
[25:34]Yeah.
[25:35]I mean, that comes with the territory.
[25:36]When I talk to people about writing and publishing
[25:41]is that the more success you have,
[25:43]the more people have to say about your work, right?
[25:45]And so Dan Brown, we're not going to feel sorry for Dan Brown.
[25:49]But Dan Brown probably has like 10,000 one star reviews,
[25:52]minimum on his big book, right?
[25:55]So you can't take that step personally.
[25:58]They're not writing the reviews for you,
[26:00]even the trade reviews.
[26:01]They're not thinking about you, the author,
[26:03]when they write it, right?
[26:05]No.
[26:05]They're coming in with their own agenda
[26:07]by ease, whatever biases.
[26:10]And I also think that you can actually write a terrible review
[26:13]about anything or anyone.
[26:15]It's just a question of tone.
[26:17]And I write a very mean review about mother Teresa,
[26:20]if I wanted to, you know, like because it's really
[26:23]just a question of tone and attitude and so,
[26:27]and I think it's important to remember
[26:29]like there are lots of books that people love
[26:31]that I really hate it.
[26:32]And I'm not going to go talk about that on the internet
[26:35]because, you know, I'm an author
[26:36]and I don't, I think it's like just author etiquette,
[26:39]not to do that, but people are entitled to their opinions
[26:43]and I do also think you can learn things from negative reviews.
[26:47]There is a consistent point of view in the negative reviews.
[26:52]I have in certain books, I have learned things.
[26:55]I've been like, okay, I get that, like valid,
[26:59]that's a valid critique.
[27:01]And then in the next book, like if I'm doing something similar,
[27:05]I'm not going to do X, Y, or Z again.
[27:08]There will be footnotes in the second book.
[27:09]If, you know, some people just don't like the footnotes,
[27:11]and no worries, it's part of the stick.
[27:13]But I do think when people take the time
[27:16]to actually write something, I mean, the reviews
[27:18]that drive you nuts are the like, I mean, my favorite,
[27:21]although I'm one star review on Amazon was I didn't order this.
[27:26]You know, it's like, okay, yeah, return it.
[27:32]Yeah, I know, your book was in first reads, right?
[27:34]I had a book in first reads back at the beginning of the program
[27:37]and that's an intense experience.
[27:39]128,000 people downloaded that book for free in one month.
[27:44]And so you're getting people who wouldn't normally read you,
[27:46]read yourself.
[27:47]And that book was about no fair.
[27:49]And like half my one star reviews are,
[27:52]I don't like books about no fair about a fair.
[27:54]It's I'm like, well, what do you read the book for?
[27:59]It's called Hidden, like the jacket copy,
[28:03]literally says when Jeff Manning dies,
[28:05]there are two women left devastated by his death.
[28:07]His wife and a coworker, like,
[28:09]come on.
[28:13]Yeah, buyer beware.
[28:16]Yes, yes.
[28:17]Or have you ever gotten reviews for somebody else's book?
[28:20]No, you got that.
[28:22]That's really funny.
[28:23]There was another book called Hidden that came out
[28:26]around the same time as mine.
[28:27]Also by Amazon publishing oddly,
[28:29]but it was like a paranormal romance or something.
[28:32]So everyone said, wow, I read a review and I'm like,
[28:35]hmm, that is not about my book,
[28:37]but thank you for the five stars.
[28:39]Yeah.
[28:40]And then it's so crazy how much weight is given
[28:43]to some of the overall number.
[28:45]I mean, it's so crazy.
[28:46]It's all just crazy.
[28:47]Yeah, there's lots of,
[28:49]there's lots of things for people to stress about.
[28:51]I mean, I saw somebody on threads like flipping out
[28:54]because their book that I think was nonfiction,
[28:57]published by a small press, you know,
[28:59]hadn't made big numbers.
[29:00]And I'm like, who told you that book was gonna make
[29:03]big numbers in the first place?
[29:04]Like, you know, a lot of that is setting up expectations,
[29:08]but we come into a business from whatever background we have.
[29:13]And there is no, I always thought,
[29:15]and there are a couple of publishers that do this now,
[29:17]but I always thought that like an author 101 school
[29:20]would be a good idea because there's so much lingo.
[29:24]And there's, there's, you know, what's the on sale date?
[29:27]What's the in store date?
[29:28]What's this date?
[29:29]When am I supposed to know this?
[29:30]When am I supposed to know that?
[29:32]And to have that sort of like A to Z, yep, you know,
[29:37]this is when this normally happens.
[29:38]This is when this normally happens.
[29:39]Here's what you can do.
[29:42]And, you know, at the end of the day,
[29:44]if your publisher doesn't get behind a book
[29:47]and invest in it, it's very unlikely
[29:50]that your book's gonna blow up.
[29:52]You know, it happens every once in a while
[29:54]for random reasons like right now on TikTok or something,
[29:57]you know, but in general,
[29:58]a lot of that is out of your,
[30:00]control. But as an author, you see people doing things or it feels like, well, if I just did this
[30:04]one thing, if I just did that other thing, then maybe this would happen to me too. And that's,
[30:11]that's really hard. And I think a lot of people really get stuck on their first book trying to make
[30:16]it a success when they really should just be writing the next one, you know, because it's not,
[30:24]it's not that there, it hasn't happened that some books have blown up years after they've come
[30:28]out. But again, that's very rare. And it's, I think, very rarely something that the author could do.
[30:33]So I think part of that is just like learning over time what it is that you can do and what you
[30:39]can invest in the success of your book. And then what is just completely out of your control,
[30:45]you know, like, you just, you can't replicate it. And then even things that work sometimes,
[30:51]the stop working. Yep. So, and I mean, I've been here like when I, when I first published it was
[30:57]Goodreads and Twitter. And Twitter was like in the nascent book Twitter area. And then there's
[31:03]Instagram. And now there's TikTok and now there's threads. And every time there's a new platform,
[31:08]I'm like, no, no, actually, when you were talking about threads, I was like, I was thinking
[31:14]to myself, oh God, I'm really not on threads. I had or even know what's going on over there. Like,
[31:18]I'm just like, you do an app. You don't also need to be on threads. Don't worry about it.
[31:21]But as you said, there's always something else. I mean, there's always another community and things
[31:26]are constantly evolving. And that's the, you know, if you think otherwise, like there will be
[31:31]another new platform in the next five years that we all over the time, 100%, 100%. So yeah,
[31:37]raised myself for that. Exactly. Well, Catherine, this is so fun. Your book was great. I'm so happy.
[31:47]It's, you know, found the audience that it totally deserves and all of that. And, you know,
[31:52]this is, it's great when a success does happen for a good book. And it's just, you know,
[31:59]I know you're, we keep joking. It's publishing, but it's nice to know that good books do find
[32:04]their audiences. And it doesn't necessarily have to be like the biggest book club picker.
[32:08]Did you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, no, no. And you know, that was something that my
[32:11]publisher reassured me about like early on, which I really appreciated because I had been in
[32:16]other publishing situations where it was basically if you didn't get one of the big five
[32:20]gets, then they weren't going to do anything to promote your book, which is kind of devastating
[32:25]because you know about those gets, months and months and months and months and advance. And you're
[32:30]like, oh, so my book's going to die. Okay, you know, and, you know, the publishing director,
[32:35]I met her in New York last summer and, and she was really, really, it was really great. Actually,
[32:40]she was like, we still have a plan. Those things don't happen. So you don't need to worry about
[32:46]that. Like, we will still do everything we said we were going to do for the book. If you don't get
[32:52]Reese, if you don't get this, you know, and in the end, I didn't, I didn't get book of the month.
[32:56]I didn't get reset in GMA. I didn't get those things. And the book, you know, is still succeeding,
[33:00]which shows not that those things aren't amazing. And I wouldn't be incredibly happy to have
[33:04]any one of those things, but it shows that there, there are still things that publishers can do.
[33:10]There are still ways to, to get books out there without that, which is reassuring because I think
[33:15]there's been a lot of fueling in the other community in particular that like, if you just say
[33:19]get one of those things, it was sort of game over for that book, you know. So it's nice to know
[33:24]that's not the case. I know we're almost out of time. But if you had to, I mean, what did your publisher
[33:31]do that you think that had the biggest impact? I mean, so much of it is signaling, I think. So it
[33:36]was a lead title for them. And so that signaling happens early on starting in sales, internal sales
[33:43]conferences, when they're pitching the book to Indies, you know, I did get Indy next. And they
[33:49]did a big push and campaign for that. And we could see the result of that. It's selling really
[33:54]well in Indy's. And I think that's what helped put it on the USA Today list. And, and they're
[34:00]running ads for the book. I mean, advertising works, you know, people need to see something over and
[34:05]over again. They did an amazing influencer campaign where they put together not just the book,
[34:10]they sent them past these beautiful scarves and luggage tags. And, and so that really, you know,
[34:17]I think that sort of viral social media marketing worked in this instance. But always what's
[34:23]the most important because you can do all those things. But if the book is not in bookstores,
[34:27]then, you know, it doesn't matter really to a large extent. So, you know, I think their sales
[34:32]team did an amazing job getting the book out there in most Barnes and Nobles and, you know,
[34:39]tons and tons and tons of independent and smaller chains. So, you know, like all power to them
[34:47]is not just sending out a bunch of ARCs, but having like a strategic way of of going about it.
[34:55]But every book is different too. You know, what works for one book is, is not going to work for
[35:00]another, you know, part of why I was excited to work with this publishing team is that that's the
[35:04]same team that does El Cazimano's books. And so they know that market and they know that audience
[35:09]and they know how to reach them. And that's miniature. I was trying to live here. Yeah, it's
[35:14]Minotaur. Yeah, so it's the Finley Donovan series. And so, you know, it was, it was nice to have that
[35:19]reassurance of they've been in that category and they know how to reach that reader. And they clearly
[35:26]do, which is great. And then the packaging, you know, I always say like the, the, the title sells
[35:32]the book, which I do think is 50% true in this case, but the covers sell books. And I think they
[35:37]did an amazing job on this cover. And, and you know, if you, I don't think I don't know if you had
[35:41]the hard cover, but even the inside of the hard cover is like incredible endpapers. I love that.
[35:48]It's like earlier designs of the cover and its notes from Eleanor to her editor and to the
[35:54]cover designer and stuff. So they, they really like thought through the book in a, you know,
[35:58]really deep wave from beginning to end, you know, starting with how they introduced it in house.
[36:04]Yeah, the market, the audio marketing team like ever every part of the team, I heard from every part
[36:09]of the team, which I has never happened to me before. You know, so I just felt like the whole
[36:14]house was behind making the book a success, which was great. Amazing. Thank you. Okay.
[36:20]Congratulations. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. And I hope to meet you in person. Okay.
[36:25]Okay. Bye.
[36:29]Thanks for listening to moms don't have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review
[36:33]and follow us on social at city Owens and at city readers.